Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:41 AM - Re: Another QB 10 Issue - Longeron Length (again) (Bob Leffler)
2. 06:11 AM - Re: Another QB 10 Issue - Longeron Length (again) (Perry, Phil)
3. 08:43 AM - Window Glue (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
4. 10:39 AM - Re: Control column mounts (Bob Turner)
5. 11:18 AM - Re: Re: Control column mounts (Perry, Phil)
6. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: Control column mounts (Rob Kochman)
7. 04:21 PM - Door-I'm the guy. (John Koonce)
8. 04:53 PM - Re: Door-I'm the guy. (David McNeill)
9. 05:22 PM - Re: Door-I'm the guy. (ricksked@embarqmail.com)
10. 05:29 PM - AFS - Alternator Warning (Jim)
11. 06:11 PM - Re: Door-I'm the guy. (John Gonzalez)
12. 06:18 PM - Re: Window Glue (John Gonzalez)
13. 06:43 PM - Re: Door-I'm the guy. (David McNeill)
14. 06:45 PM - Re: Door-I'm the guy. (ricksked@embarqmail.com)
15. 07:15 PM - charger 12248 (David McNeill)
16. 07:15 PM - Re: Door-I'm the guy. (Robert Brunkenhoefer)
17. 07:26 PM - Re: AFS - Alternator Warning (Carl Froehlich)
18. 09:04 PM - charger 12248 (David McNeill)
19. 09:46 PM - Re: charger 12248 (Kelly McMullen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Another QB 10 Issue - Longeron Length (again) |
Phil,
If I read your measurements correctly, I think you're spot on. My tailcone
is mounted, but it was easy to measure since that longeron is on top and not
covered by a skin. My measurement was 2-7/16".
Bob
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 9:01 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Another QB 10 Issue - Longeron Length (again)
Since I found some mid-fuse longerons that were too long, I thought I'd
double check the primary ones that attach to the tailcone. Checking the
lengths on those was something I never thought about doing.
Good thing I did - or so I think.
Attached is a photo of the right side longeron. The line in the photo is
where I believe the longeron should be cut (49 23/32") per 29-2 Step #1. As
you can see, the longerons are more than 4" too long.
Which brings me to two interesting questions.
1) For those of you who have slow-built and not attached to the
tailcone yet; How far do yours stick out past the side skin? Is my mark
close to right?
2) I wonder how many other folks missed this step and now have an RV-10
QB's with the tailcone and fwd fuse attached at the wrong point.
Phil
Message 2
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| Subject: | Another QB 10 Issue - Longeron Length (again) |
Thanks Bob...
I just threw the tape on there just to give you a sense of scale.
I went out and measured from the skins edge to the line and I'm 1/16"
shorter than yours. I'll add a 1/16th to it.
Just didn't want to cut those things until I verified they really needed
to be cut. That explains why they didn't pre-drill those pilot holes
for attachment too..
Thanks,
Phil
From: Bob Leffler [mailto:rv@thelefflers.com]
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 5:43 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Another QB 10 Issue - Longeron Length (again)
Phil,
If I read your measurements correctly, I think you're spot on. My
tailcone is mounted, but it was easy to measure since that longeron is
on top and not covered by a skin. My measurement was 2-7/16".
Bob
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 9:01 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Another QB 10 Issue - Longeron Length (again)
Since I found some mid-fuse longerons that were too long, I thought I'd
double check the primary ones that attach to the tailcone. Checking the
lengths on those was something I never thought about doing.
Good thing I did - or so I think.
Attached is a photo of the right side longeron. The line in the photo
is where I believe the longeron should be cut (49 23/32") per 29-2 Step
#1. As you can see, the longerons are more than 4" too long.
Which brings me to two interesting questions.
1) For those of you who have slow-built and not attached to the
tailcone yet; How far do yours stick out past the side skin? Is my mark
close to right?
2) I wonder how many other folks missed this step and now have an
RV-10 QB's with the tailcone and fwd fuse attached at the wrong point.
Phil
Message 3
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I thought I would share my experience with an alternative glue for adheri
ng the windows. Based on a recommendation from Geoff Combs, I picked up so
me Lord 7545A/E urethane adhesive rather than using the Weldon 10 we are al
l familiar with.
I did follow the standard process with the rear windows and after that ex
perience, along with forgetting my shims in the rush, I thought I would loo
k into the alternatives. After not really finding anything definitive from
the existing alternatives like Sikaflex I basically resigned myself to use
Weldon for the doors. As I got within a couple weeks of doing the door wi
ndows Geoff had mentioned to me that he used something else for the window
adhesive that was very much suited for the task and didn't have the quick c
ure times and viscosity issues of Weldon. I had forgot about it until he h
ad a brief blurb in one of his post a couple weeks back. So I got more det
ails from him and found a distributor that I could get the 50ML two part ca
rtridge. The stuff is comparable in price to the Weldon at about $13 a kit
and each 50ML kit will do a window easily. There is an additional cost in
that you need a gun which is about $30 but it will work with any two part,
1:1, gun packaged product. Each pak also comes with a self mixing dispens
ing nozzle so you just stick it in the gun, put the nozzle on, and squeeze.
Extra tips are less than a buck and if you don't use the whole cartridge
you just chuck the tip and put the cap back on.
I'm sure many of you are saying that you've heard this before but this st
uff is GREAT! It looks and acts similar to the Weldon but you get upwards
of 30min working time and it doesn't even sag! This stuff is made specific
ally as a structural adhesive for plastics so it seems to be an excellent p
roduct for this application.
Not wanting to completely trust what I read I decided to a little non-sci
entific destructive testing. I didn't have a piece of scrap fiberglass any
more but I did have plenty of scrap plexi from trimming the windows so I to
ok two pieces and glued an overlap of about 1.5x1.5 inch on two pieces of s
crap. Cure time for this stuff is about 24 hours but I let it sit for abou
t a week. This stuff doesn't get as rock hard as Weldon but it isn't flexi
ble either. I took the glued piece and put it in the vise on its edge and
tried to separate it in full edge shear (not really sure how to describe it
but was the most difficult way to break it) and the plexi broke clear of t
he glue joint. I then turned it flat and tried to peel it apart and again
the plexi broke away from the glue joint. So far the glue joint hasn't bud
ged. I then took a hammer and beat the crap out of the remaining square wh
ich was basically just the glued area. After several whacks with the frami
ng hammer I was finally able to get it to break into 3 pieces without ANY s
eparation of the glue joint. I've attached a few pictures below so you can
see what I'm talking about.
The initial swag I took at how many cartridges I would need was a little
high so I have four extras that I can sell to anyone that is interested. I
was thinking $16 each would cover the cost and shipping and I can send you
my gun to use as long as you send it back in a reasonable amount of time.
Here is a link to the distributor I got it from. This page also has a li
nk to the gun you need and extra tips if you want them. Keep in mind each
pack comes with one tip too.
http://chemical-concepts.com/products.php?sid=192&limit
Here is a technical datasheet on 7545A:
http://www.glue4you.com/PDF/Lord7545_TN001.pdf
If you want two or four of the unopened packs I have just drop me a email d
irectly.
Michael
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Control column mounts |
In his case, the QB guys have already installed it, without removing material.
I see no interference issues, just a little extra weight. But I'm not flying yet!
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266088#266088
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Control column mounts |
Thought I'd share this piece of knowledge with the QB group too.
Check the torque values of all your QB installed AN3 hardware. I
started sneaking up on mine the other night to see what value they were
tourqed to.
Any guesses????
85 inches.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Turner [mailto:bobturner@alum.rpi.edu]
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 12:39 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Control column mounts
In his case, the QB guys have already installed it, without removing
material.
I see no interference issues, just a little extra weight. But I'm not
flying yet!
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266088#266088
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Control column mounts |
If they start turning at 85 in-lbs, that doesn't mean they were torqued to
85, correct? Isn't extra torque required to "break free"?
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Perry, Phil <Phil.Perry@netapp.com> wrote:
>
> Thought I'd share this piece of knowledge with the QB group too.
>
> Check the torque values of all your QB installed AN3 hardware. I
> started sneaking up on mine the other night to see what value they were
> tourqed to.
>
> Any guesses????
>
>
> 85 inches.
>
>
> Phil
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Turner [mailto:bobturner@alum.rpi.edu]
> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 12:39 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: Control column mounts
>
>
> In his case, the QB guys have already installed it, without removing
> material.
>
> I see no interference issues, just a little extra weight. But I'm not
> flying yet!
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266088#266088
>
>
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Wings
Woodinville, WA (near Seattle)
http://kochman.net/N819K
Message 7
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| Subject: | Door-I'm the guy. |
A friend told me that I made your discussions. I lost the door on
takeoff last week.
A fly-in was finishing up when a pilot friend asked me for a ride in
my RV 10. I had had it parked on the ramp most of the day for static
display.
I'm a Urologist and was on call, but staying in the local area would
still not put me more than 30 min from the hospital if I got called
for an emergency. We taxied out for a quick spin. I'm very aware of
the door problem and have a double check for the door. I personally
close both doors on both sides and check security front and aft both
visually and with hand pressure. When we got in I checked his side as
I usually do and closed my own door. I keep the passenger seat
forward and it makes it difficult to hand pressure check the aft pin
because of the closeness of the seat to the door. Visually it looked
fine. During taxi I of course got paged and this distracted me from
the flying. I handled the page and we continued taxi.
The passenger is a pilot who built, flew and ultimately sold an RV 6.
I'm suspicious this made me a bit cavalier about pre flight steps. We
had already done our run up sequence and started our takeoff roll
fairly quickly. We had lifted off and were climbing at about 80-90
knots when the door shifted out. It happened very quickly, went on
out, twisted on the hinges and departed. It did not strike the
airframe. We continued the climb, did a go round, and landed
uneventfully. Except for the noise the aircraft handled without
problems. We retrieved the door and there is surprisingly little
damage. The plexiglass has two cracks about 3-4 inches.
Interestingly enough the complete hinge assembly remained attached to
the airframe. The attach point to the door is doubled firbeglass and
the fibreglass layer attached to the hinge stayed with the hinge. The
bolts pulled thru the outer door fibreglass skin. The paint remained
intact and there is almost no visible damage to the outer skin of the
door. The other aircraft with the hard landing had similar findings
after I reviewed his pictures.
The door departed because the aft pin wasn't engaged. No aircraft
component failed. I have the lights installed for the doors, but
could have missed this with the distractions. I had to readjust them
in the past because the pin is close enough to the magnetic reed that
it sensed the door closed even with the pin outside the engagement
block. I think the best way to manage this is to hand pressure check
the engagement of the pin as well as visually check it. My visual
check wasn't enough. The handle on the door is almost directly over
the front pin, so pulling shut the door seats that easily. When the
door swings in, it is very easy for the aft door to twist and not slip
properly into the aircraft door frame. Rotating the door handle gives
a secure tight feel even when the aft pin is not engaged, but just
simply sliding outside the doorframe on the aircraft skin. The front
pin pulls it tight. Once rolling, I assume the positive pressure from
the vents internally on the door, combined with the negative pressure
on the door surface eventually overwhelms the front pin and at that
point it goes very quickly.
Both of us in the aircraft were experienced pilots, and as well the
aircraft really never got above 90-100 knots, or above 1000 ft AGL.
Should the pin hold enough to get to altitude or 160 knots, I'm not
sure what would happen, as the wind effect is impressive. Again, the
aircraft handled fine. Hopefully this note will help others to avoid
this event.
As far as suggested solutions to manage this problem, I am not
convinced that the safety wire technique would work effectively, but I
certainly would encourage it. For a urologist, scrotal
reconstructions pay very well. Please be sure your health insurance
is current.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Door-I'm the guy. |
Congratulations on landing safely; perhaps a way could be found on the
interior faade to allow "feeling" the pins. Fortunately I chose not to have
the faade so I feel the pins, each side, fore and aft, twice; pins are
check after loading and before takeoff and I do it. I have missed the
passenger door rear pin once (after loading) but caught it immediately by
feeling the pins fore and aft. I have not installed the light system. I
don't intend to install the safety wire since at 65 I still use mine. I have
two back seat options ages 10 and 13.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Koonce
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 4:20 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy.
A friend told me that I made your discussions. I lost the door on takeoff
last week.
A fly-in was finishing up when a pilot friend asked me for a ride in my RV
10. I had had it parked on the ramp most of the day for static display.
I'm a Urologist and was on call, but staying in the local area would still
not put me more than 30 min from the hospital if I got called for an
emergency. We taxied out for a quick spin. I'm very aware of the door
problem and have a double check for the door. I personally close both doors
on both sides and check security front and aft both visually and with hand
pressure. When we got in I checked his side as I usually do and closed my
own door. I keep the passenger seat forward and it makes it difficult to
hand pressure check the aft pin because of the closeness of the seat to the
door. Visually it looked fine. During taxi I of course got paged and this
distracted me from the flying. I handled the page and we continued taxi.
The passenger is a pilot who built, flew and ultimately sold an RV 6.
I'm suspicious this made me a bit cavalier about pre flight steps. We had
already done our run up sequence and started our takeoff roll fairly
quickly. We had lifted off and were climbing at about 80-90 knots when the
door shifted out. It happened very quickly, went on out, twisted on the
hinges and departed. It did not strike the airframe. We continued the
climb, did a go round, and landed uneventfully. Except for the noise the
aircraft handled without problems. We retrieved the door and there is
surprisingly little
damage. The plexiglass has two cracks about 3-4 inches.
Interestingly enough the complete hinge assembly remained attached to the
airframe. The attach point to the door is doubled firbeglass and the
fibreglass layer attached to the hinge stayed with the hinge. The bolts
pulled thru the outer door fibreglass skin. The paint remained intact and
there is almost no visible damage to the outer skin of the door. The other
aircraft with the hard landing had similar findings after I reviewed his
pictures.
The door departed because the aft pin wasn't engaged. No aircraft component
failed. I have the lights installed for the doors, but
could have missed this with the distractions. I had to readjust them
in the past because the pin is close enough to the magnetic reed that
it sensed the door closed even with the pin outside the engagement block. I
think the best way to manage this is to hand pressure check the engagement
of the pin as well as visually check it. My visual check wasn't enough.
The handle on the door is almost directly over
the front pin, so pulling shut the door seats that easily. When the
door swings in, it is very easy for the aft door to twist and not slip
properly into the aircraft door frame. Rotating the door handle gives a
secure tight feel even when the aft pin is not engaged, but just simply
sliding outside the doorframe on the aircraft skin. The front pin pulls it
tight. Once rolling, I assume the positive pressure from the vents
internally on the door, combined with the negative pressure on the door
surface eventually overwhelms the front pin and at that point it goes very
quickly.
Both of us in the aircraft were experienced pilots, and as well the
aircraft really never got above 90-100 knots, or above 1000 ft AGL.
Should the pin hold enough to get to altitude or 160 knots, I'm not sure
what would happen, as the wind effect is impressive. Again, the aircraft
handled fine. Hopefully this note will help others to avoid this event.
As far as suggested solutions to manage this problem, I am not convinced
that the safety wire technique would work effectively, but I certainly would
encourage it. For a urologist, scrotal reconstructions pay very well.
Please be sure your health insurance is current.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Door-I'm the guy. |
Thanks for the info John and for being so candid on the cause. Just another reason
to not be distracted on pre take off checks
I agree the reeds are questionable if installed wrong or flimsy . I made brackets
for mine which hold them in alignment very well. Glad you and your passenger
came out unscathed.....BTW....I love my Urologist...and so should every man
on this forum...
Rick Sked
N246RS
Flying fun
Do not archive
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: John Koonce <john@jpkoonce.net>
Subject: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy.
A friend told me that I made your discussions. I lost the door on
takeoff last week.
A fly-in was finishing up when a pilot friend asked me for a ride in
my RV 10. I had had it parked on the ramp most of the day for static
display.
I'm a Urologist and was on call, but staying in the local area would
still not put me more than 30 min from the hospital if I got called
for an emergency. We taxied out for a quick spin. I'm very aware of
the door problem and have a double check for the door. I personally
close both doors on both sides and check security front and aft both
visually and with hand pressure. When we got in I checked his side as
I usually do and closed my own door. I keep the passenger seat
forward and it makes it difficult to hand pressure check the aft pin
because of the closeness of the seat to the door. Visually it looked
fine. During taxi I of course got paged and this distracted me from
the flying. I handled the page and we continued taxi.
The passenger is a pilot who built, flew and ultimately sold an RV 6.
I'm suspicious this made me a bit cavalier about pre flight steps. We
had already done our run up sequence and started our takeoff roll
fairly quickly. We had lifted off and were climbing at about 80-90
knots when the door shifted out. It happened very quickly, went on
out, twisted on the hinges and departed. It did not strike the
airframe. We continued the climb, did a go round, and landed
uneventfully. Except for the noise the aircraft handled without
problems. We retrieved the door and there is surprisingly little
damage. The plexiglass has two cracks about 3-4 inches.
Interestingly enough the complete hinge assembly remained attached to
the airframe. The attach point to the door is doubled firbeglass and
the fibreglass layer attached to the hinge stayed with the hinge. The
bolts pulled thru the outer door fibreglass skin. The paint remained
intact and there is almost no visible damage to the outer skin of the
door. The other aircraft with the hard landing had similar findings
after I reviewed his pictures.
The door departed because the aft pin wasn't engaged. No aircraft
component failed. I have the lights installed for the doors, but
could have missed this with the distractions. I had to readjust them
in the past because the pin is close enough to the magnetic reed that
it sensed the door closed even with the pin outside the engagement
block. I think the best way to manage this is to hand pressure check
the engagement of the pin as well as visually check it. My visual
check wasn't enough. The handle on the door is almost directly over
the front pin, so pulling shut the door seats that easily. When the
door swings in, it is very easy for the aft door to twist and not slip
properly into the aircraft door frame. Rotating the door handle gives
a secure tight feel even when the aft pin is not engaged, but just
simply sliding outside the doorframe on the aircraft skin. The front
pin pulls it tight. Once rolling, I assume the positive pressure from
the vents internally on the door, combined with the negative pressure
on the door surface eventually overwhelms the front pin and at that
point it goes very quickly.
Both of us in the aircraft were experienced pilots, and as well the
aircraft really never got above 90-100 knots, or above 1000 ft AGL.
Should the pin hold enough to get to altitude or 160 knots, I'm not
sure what would happen, as the wind effect is impressive. Again, the
aircraft handled fine. Hopefully this note will help others to avoid
this event.
As far as suggested solutions to manage this problem, I am not
convinced that the safety wire technique would work effectively, but I
certainly would encourage it. For a urologist, scrotal
reconstructions pay very well. Please be sure your health insurance
is current.
Message 10
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| Subject: | AFS - Alternator Warning |
I am flying with an AFS 3500EE EFIS / Engine Monitor.
Yesterday the airplane was being flown and the fuse blew on the
alternator field circuit causing the alternator go off line. Turns
out the alternator AMPS warning is OFF by default and no warning was
heard. It wasn't until the battery was low that an audible / visual
alert was presented on the EFIS. Not sure just how long it took for
the battery to get to the low voltage warning condition. I have
copied the flight data from the EFIS and will review the data to see just
how long it took.
The EFIS went to backup battery during
the flight and the flight was terminated with no other problems.
This is just a heads up to those flying with the AFS EFIS to check the
alternator AMPS setting in the configuration pages should you want an
immediate warning for alternator current. Knowing you have a problem
sooner than later is desirable.
I did not have the alternator
lamp wired (Didn't think I needed it with the EFIS audible alerts).
I will be adding this to the panel in the near future.
I love
the EFIS, I just missed getting this setting correct.
Jim Combs
(N312F - 110+ hours)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Door-I'm the guy. |
IMOP make the pins longer and build up the interior of the cabin top so tha
t when the door is closed with the pins engaged=2C the cabin top is touchin
g the inside of the door. That way there is no guess work involved as there
would be if one is guestimating the gap between cabin top flange and insid
e surface of the door=2C especially alone the entire bottom edge of the cab
in top/door interface.
My pins go 1/4inch beyond the two aluminum fuselage frames=2C for and aft f
rames.
John #409=2C the lager=2C just finished an RC foam sloper so I could have t
hat feeling of entirely completing something.
> From: dlm46007@cox.net
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy.
> Date: Fri=2C 2 Oct 2009 16:49:53 -0700
>
>
> Congratulations on landing safely=3B perhaps a way could be found on the
> interior fa=E7ade to allow "feeling" the pins. Fortunately I chose not to
have
> the fa=E7ade so I feel the pins=2C each side=2C fore and aft=2C twice=3B
pins are
> check after loading and before takeoff and I do it. I have missed the
> passenger door rear pin once (after loading) but caught it immediately by
> feeling the pins fore and aft. I have not installed the light system. I
> don't intend to install the safety wire since at 65 I still use mine. I h
ave
> two back seat options ages 10 and 13.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Koonce
> Sent: Friday=2C October 02=2C 2009 4:20 PM
> To: RV10-List@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy.
>
>
> A friend told me that I made your discussions. I lost the door on takeof
f
> last week.
>
> A fly-in was finishing up when a pilot friend asked me for a ride in my R
V
> 10. I had had it parked on the ramp most of the day for static display.
> I'm a Urologist and was on call=2C but staying in the local area would st
ill
> not put me more than 30 min from the hospital if I got called for an
> emergency. We taxied out for a quick spin. I'm very aware of the door
> problem and have a double check for the door. I personally close both do
ors
> on both sides and check security front and aft both visually and with han
d
> pressure. When we got in I checked his side as I usually do and closed m
y
> own door. I keep the passenger seat forward and it makes it difficult to
> hand pressure check the aft pin because of the closeness of the seat to t
he
> door. Visually it looked fine. During taxi I of course got paged and th
is
> distracted me from the flying. I handled the page and we continued taxi.
> The passenger is a pilot who built=2C flew and ultimately sold an RV 6.
> I'm suspicious this made me a bit cavalier about pre flight steps. We ha
d
> already done our run up sequence and started our takeoff roll fairly
> quickly. We had lifted off and were climbing at about 80-90 knots when t
he
> door shifted out. It happened very quickly=2C went on out=2C twisted on
the
> hinges and departed. It did not strike the airframe. We continued the
> climb=2C did a go round=2C and landed uneventfully. Except for the noise
the
> aircraft handled without problems. We retrieved the door and there is
> surprisingly little
> damage. The plexiglass has two cracks about 3-4 inches.
> Interestingly enough the complete hinge assembly remained attached to the
> airframe. The attach point to the door is doubled firbeglass and the
> fibreglass layer attached to the hinge stayed with the hinge. The bolts
> pulled thru the outer door fibreglass skin. The paint remained intact an
d
> there is almost no visible damage to the outer skin of the door. The oth
er
> aircraft with the hard landing had similar findings after I reviewed his
> pictures.
>
> The door departed because the aft pin wasn't engaged. No aircraft compon
ent
> failed. I have the lights installed for the doors=2C but
> could have missed this with the distractions. I had to readjust them
> in the past because the pin is close enough to the magnetic reed that
> it sensed the door closed even with the pin outside the engagement block.
I
> think the best way to manage this is to hand pressure check the engagemen
t
> of the pin as well as visually check it. My visual check wasn't enough.
> The handle on the door is almost directly over
> the front pin=2C so pulling shut the door seats that easily. When the
> door swings in=2C it is very easy for the aft door to twist and not slip
> properly into the aircraft door frame. Rotating the door handle gives a
> secure tight feel even when the aft pin is not engaged=2C but just simply
> sliding outside the doorframe on the aircraft skin. The front pin pulls
it
> tight. Once rolling=2C I assume the positive pressure from the vents
> internally on the door=2C combined with the negative pressure on the door
> surface eventually overwhelms the front pin and at that point it goes ver
y
> quickly.
>
> Both of us in the aircraft were experienced pilots=2C and as well the
> aircraft really never got above 90-100 knots=2C or above 1000 ft AGL.
> Should the pin hold enough to get to altitude or 160 knots=2C I'm not sur
e
> what would happen=2C as the wind effect is impressive. Again=2C the airc
raft
> handled fine. Hopefully this note will help others to avoid this event.
>
> As far as suggested solutions to manage this problem=2C I am not convince
d
> that the safety wire technique would work effectively=2C but I certainly
would
> encourage it. For a urologist=2C scrotal reconstructions pay very well.
> Please be sure your health insurance is current.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 12
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|
You might want to find that piece of fiberglass and do the same test with t
he plexi to fiberglass and then also make sure you test it where the gab be
tween the to is almost 1/8 of an inch. Make sure it still is as strong.
No doubt it is great stuff=2C but just be sure.
> From: rvbuilder@sausen.net
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Date: Fri=2C 2 Oct 2009 10:30:16 -0500
> Subject: RV10-List: Window Glue
>
> I thought I would share my experience with an alternative glue for adhe
ring the windows. Based on a recommendation from Geoff Combs=2C I picked u
p some Lord 7545A/E urethane adhesive rather than using the Weldon 10 we ar
e all familiar with.
>
> I did follow the standard process with the rear windows and after that
experience=2C along with forgetting my shims in the rush=2C I thought I wou
ld look into the alternatives. After not really finding anything definitiv
e from the existing alternatives like Sikaflex I basically resigned myself
to use Weldon for the doors. As I got within a couple weeks of doing the d
oor windows Geoff had mentioned to me that he used something else for the w
indow adhesive that was very much suited for the task and didn't have the q
uick cure times and viscosity issues of Weldon. I had forgot about it unti
l he had a brief blurb in one of his post a couple weeks back. So I got mo
re details from him and found a distributor that I could get the 50ML two p
art cartridge. The stuff is comparable in price to the Weldon at about $13
a kit and each 50ML kit will do a window easily. There is an additional c
ost in that you need a gun which is about $30 but it will work with any two
part=2C 1:1=2C gun packaged product. Each pak also comes with a self mixi
ng dispensing nozzle so you just stick it in the gun=2C put the nozzle on
=2C and squeeze. Extra tips are less than a buck and if you don't use the
whole cartridge you just chuck the tip and put the cap back on.
>
> I'm sure many of you are saying that you've heard this before but this
stuff is GREAT! It looks and acts similar to the Weldon but you get upward
s of 30min working time and it doesn't even sag! This stuff is made specif
ically as a structural adhesive for plastics so it seems to be an excellent
product for this application.
>
> Not wanting to completely trust what I read I decided to a little non-s
cientific destructive testing. I didn't have a piece of scrap fiberglass a
nymore but I did have plenty of scrap plexi from trimming the windows so I
took two pieces and glued an overlap of about 1.5x1.5 inch on two pieces of
scrap. Cure time for this stuff is about 24 hours but I let it sit for ab
out a week. This stuff doesn't get as rock hard as Weldon but it isn't fle
xible either. I took the glued piece and put it in the vise on its edge an
d tried to separate it in full edge shear (not really sure how to describe
it but was the most difficult way to break it) and the plexi broke clear of
the glue joint. I then turned it flat and tried to peel it apart and agai
n the plexi broke away from the glue joint. So far the glue joint hasn't b
udged. I then took a hammer and beat the crap out of the remaining square
which was basically just the glued area. After several whacks with the fra
ming hammer I was finally able to get it to break into 3 pieces without ANY
separation of the glue joint. I've attached a few pictures below so you c
an see what I'm talking about.
>
> The initial swag I took at how many cartridges I would need was a littl
e high so I have four extras that I can sell to anyone that is interested.
I was thinking $16 each would cover the cost and shipping and I can send y
ou my gun to use as long as you send it back in a reasonable amount of time
.
>
> Here is a link to the distributor I got it from. This page also has a
link to the gun you need and extra tips if you want them. Keep in mind eac
h pack comes with one tip too.
>
> http://chemical-concepts.com/products.php?sid=192&limit
>
> Here is a technical datasheet on 7545A:
>
> http://www.glue4you.com/PDF/Lord7545_TN001.pdf
>
> If you want two or four of the unopened packs I have just drop me a email
directly.
> Michael
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Door-I'm the guy. |
concur on pin length; I advised Vans earlier that their supplied pins
already cut to length were barely sufficient if they were placed exactly
where the Van's engineers wanted them. Actual placement can vary by 1/4"
depending on where the builder located the pins in the latch mechanism
recess in the door. Full circumference should be seen inside , at a
minimum,
the fuselage door post when the pin is in the locked position
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy.
IMOP make the pins longer and build up the interior of the cabin top so
that
when the door is closed with the pins engaged, the cabin top is touching
the
inside of the door. That way there is no guess work involved as there
would
be if one is guestimating the gap between cabin top flange and inside
surface of the door, especially alone the entire bottom edge of the
cabin
top/door interface.
My pins go 1/4inch beyond the two aluminum fuselage frames, for and aft
frames.
John #409, the lager, just finished an RC foam sloper so I could have
that
feeling of entirely completing something.
> From: dlm46007@cox.net
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy.
> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 16:49:53 -0700
>
>
> Congratulations on landing safely; perhaps a way could be found on the
> interior fa=E7ade to allow "feeling" the pins. Fortunately I chose not
to
have
> the fa=E7ade so I feel the pins, each side, fore and aft, twice; pins
are
> check after loading and before takeoff and I do it. I have missed the
> passenger door rear pin once (after loading) but caught it immediately
by
> feeling the pins fore and aft. I have not installed the light system.
I
> don't intend to install the safety wire since at 65 I still use mine.
I
have
> two back seat options ages 10 and 13.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Koonce
> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 4:20 PM
> To: RV10-List@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy.
>
>
> A friend told me that I made your discussions. I lost the door on
takeoff
> last week.
>
> A fly-in was finishing up when a pilot friend asked me for a ride in
my RV
> 10. I had had it parked on the ramp most of the day for static
display.
> I'm a Urologist and was on call, but staying in the local area would
still
> not put me more than 30 min from the hospital if I got called for an
> emergency. We taxied out for a quick spin. I'm very aware of the door
> problem and have a double check for the door. I personally close both
doors
> on both sides and check security front and aft both visually and with
hand
> pressure. When we got in I checked his side as I usually do and closed
my
> own door. I keep the passenger seat forward and it makes it difficult
to
> hand pressure check the aft pin because of the closeness of the seat
to
the
> door. Visually it looked fine. During taxi I of course got paged and
this
> distracted me from the flying. I handled the page and we continued
taxi.
> The passenger is a pilot who built, flew and ultimately sold an RV 6.
> I'm suspicious this made me a bit cavalier about pre flight steps. We
had
> already done our run up sequence and started our takeoff roll fairly
> quickly. We had lifted off and were climbing at about 80-90 knots when
the
> door shifted out. It happened very quickly, went on out, twisted on
the
> hinges and departed. It did not strike the airframe. We continued the
> climb, did a go round, and landed uneventfully. Except for the noise
the
> aircraft handled without problems. We retrieved the door and there is
> surprisingly little
> damage. The plexiglass has two cracks about 3-4 inches.
> Interestingly enough the complete hinge assembly remained attached to
the
> airframe. The attach point to the door is doubled firbeglass and the
> fibreglass layer attached to the hinge stayed with the hinge. The
bolts
> pulled thru the outer door fibreglass skin. The paint remained intact
and
> there is almost no visible damage to the outer skin of the door. The
other
> aircraft with the hard landing had similar findings after I reviewed
his
> pictures.
>
> The door departed because the aft pin wasn't engaged. No aircraft
component
> failed. I have the lights installed for the doors, but
> could have missed this with the distractions. I had to readjust them
> in the past because the pin is close enough to the magnetic reed that
> it sensed the door closed even with the pin outside the engagement
block.
I
> think the best way to manage this is to hand pressure check the
engagement
> of the pin as well as visually check it. My visual check wasn't
enough.
> The handle on the door is almost directly over
> the front pin, so pulling shut the door seats that easily. When the
> door swings in, it is very easy for the aft door to twist and not slip
> properly into the aircraft door frame. Rotating the door handle gives
a
> secure tight feel even when the aft pin is not engaged, but just
simply
> sliding outside the doorframe on the aircraft skin. The front pin
pulls it
> tight. Once rolling, I assume the positive pressure from the vents
> internally on the door, combined with the negative pressure on the
door
> surface eventually overwhelms the front pin and at that point it goes
very
> quickly.
>
> Both of us in the aircraft were experienced pilots, and as well the
> aircraft really never got above 90-100 knots, or above 1000 ft AGL.
> Should the pin hold enough to get to altitude or 160 knots, I'm not
sure
> what would happen, as the wind effect is impressive. Again, the
aircraft
> handled fine. Hopefully this note will help others to avoid this
event.
>
> As far as suggested solutions to manage this problem, I am not
convinced
> that the safety wire technique would work effectively, but I certainly
would
> encourage it. For a urologist, scrotal reconstructions pay very well.
> Please be sure your health insurance
i========================
> ==========
>
>
>
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Re: Door-I'm the guy. |
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IAkJICANCg=
Message 15
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Just received it tonight. Will report later. One immediate observation; for
each battery behind the closeout, a separate sensor wire is required and 12V
cigarette plugs must be placed in the top where it is not necessary to
remove the rear cover to maintain the batteries.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Door-I'm the guy. |
I put a plastic door pull near the aft part of the door by the aft pin
to insure a firm and solid closure.
Sent from my iPhone
Robert E. Brunkenhoefer
Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.
520 Lawrence St.
Corpus Christi, Texas 78401
Phone: 361-888-8808
Facsimile: 361-888-6753
robert@brunklaw.com
On Oct 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, ricksked@embarqmail.com wrote:
>
> Thanks for the info John and for being so candid on the cause. Just
> another reason to not be distracted on pre take off checks
>
> I agree the reeds are questionable if installed wrong or flimsy . I
> made brackets for mine which hold them in alignment very well. Glad
> you and your passenger came out unscathed.....BTW....I love my
> Urologist...and so should every man on this forum...
>
> Rick Sked
> N246RS
> Flying fun
> Do not archive
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Koonce <john@jpkoonce.net>
>
> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 18:20:03
> To: <RV10-List@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy.
>
>
>
> A friend told me that I made your discussions. I lost the door on
> takeoff last week.
>
> A fly-in was finishing up when a pilot friend asked me for a ride in
> my RV 10. I had had it parked on the ramp most of the day for static
> display.
> I'm a Urologist and was on call, but staying in the local area would
> still not put me more than 30 min from the hospital if I got called
> for an emergency. We taxied out for a quick spin. I'm very aware of
> the door problem and have a double check for the door. I personally
> close both doors on both sides and check security front and aft both
> visually and with hand pressure. When we got in I checked his side as
> I usually do and closed my own door. I keep the passenger seat
> forward and it makes it difficult to hand pressure check the aft pin
> because of the closeness of the seat to the door. Visually it looked
> fine. During taxi I of course got paged and this distracted me from
> the flying. I handled the page and we continued taxi.
> The passenger is a pilot who built, flew and ultimately sold an RV 6.
> I'm suspicious this made me a bit cavalier about pre flight steps. We
> had already done our run up sequence and started our takeoff roll
> fairly quickly. We had lifted off and were climbing at about 80-90
> knots when the door shifted out. It happened very quickly, went on
> out, twisted on the hinges and departed. It did not strike the
> airframe. We continued the climb, did a go round, and landed
> uneventfully. Except for the noise the aircraft handled without
> problems. We retrieved the door and there is surprisingly little
> damage. The plexiglass has two cracks about 3-4 inches.
> Interestingly enough the complete hinge assembly remained attached to
> the airframe. The attach point to the door is doubled firbeglass and
> the fibreglass layer attached to the hinge stayed with the hinge. The
> bolts pulled thru the outer door fibreglass skin. The paint remained
> intact and there is almost no visible damage to the outer skin of the
> door. The other aircraft with the hard landing had similar findings
> after I reviewed his pictures.
>
> The door departed because the aft pin wasn't engaged. No aircraft
> component failed. I have the lights installed for the doors, but
> could have missed this with the distractions. I had to readjust them
> in the past because the pin is close enough to the magnetic reed that
> it sensed the door closed even with the pin outside the engagement
> block. I think the best way to manage this is to hand pressure check
> the engagement of the pin as well as visually check it. My visual
> check wasn't enough. The handle on the door is almost directly over
> the front pin, so pulling shut the door seats that easily. When the
> door swings in, it is very easy for the aft door to twist and not slip
> properly into the aircraft door frame. Rotating the door handle gives
> a secure tight feel even when the aft pin is not engaged, but just
> simply sliding outside the doorframe on the aircraft skin. The front
> pin pulls it tight. Once rolling, I assume the positive pressure from
> the vents internally on the door, combined with the negative pressure
> on the door surface eventually overwhelms the front pin and at that
> point it goes very quickly.
>
> Both of us in the aircraft were experienced pilots, and as well the
> aircraft really never got above 90-100 knots, or above 1000 ft AGL.
> Should the pin hold enough to get to altitude or 160 knots, I'm not
> sure what would happen, as the wind effect is impressive. Again, the
> aircraft handled fine. Hopefully this note will help others to avoid
> this event.
>
> As far as suggested solutions to manage this problem, I am not
> convinced that the safety wire technique would work effectively, but I
> certainly would encourage it. For a urologist, scrotal
> reconstructions pay very well. Please be sure your health insurance
> is current.
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | AFS - Alternator Warning |
Recommend you set the EFIS (or whatever engine monitoring system being used)
to alarm on low voltage. With the alternator on line your buss voltage will
be between 13.8 and 14.1 volts. A fully charged battery is significantly
below this level. Setting a low voltage alarm at say 13.4 volts will
immediate tell you your alternator is off line. Assuming a typical battery
installation, and now knowing as soon as the alternator fails, you should
have ample battery reserve for continued flight to a convenient place to
land and get the alternator fixed.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (500 hrs)
RV-10 (fuselage fiberglass work)
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 8:28 PM
Subject: RV10-List: AFS - Alternator Warning
I am flying with an AFS 3500EE EFIS / Engine Monitor.
Yesterday the airplane was being flown and the fuse blew on the alternator
field circuit causing the alternator go off line. Turns out the alternator
AMPS warning is OFF by default and no warning was heard. It wasn't until
the battery was low that an audible / visual alert was presented on the
EFIS. Not sure just how long it took for the battery to get to the low
voltage warning condition. I have copied the flight data from the EFIS and
will review the data to see just how long it took.
The EFIS went to backup battery during the flight and the flight was
terminated with no other problems.
This is just a heads up to those flying with the AFS EFIS to check the
alternator AMPS setting in the configuration pages should you want an
immediate warning for alternator current. Knowing you have a problem sooner
than later is desirable.
I did not have the alternator lamp wired (Didn't think I needed it with the
EFIS audible alerts). I will be adding this to the panel in the near
future.
I love the EFIS, I just missed getting this setting correct.
Jim Combs (N312F - 110+ hours)
Message 18
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Correction to previous post. Sensor will not be required for most
situations. For any battery behind the closeout, the most feasible charging
will take place with a 12V cigarette receptacle adjacent to or in the top
piece; each connector will have ring terminals on the battery terminals. I
have 2 680s there and will need two receptacles. A single cigarette plug can
be matched to the special connector and plugged into the battery to be
maintained. Concorde batteries fall to the gel category, Odyssey are AGM and
I hope we don't have any unsealed batteries in the aircraft.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: charger 12248 |
Not sure which Concorde batteries you are referring to David. The RG
series are all AGM. The CB series are wet cell. The battery Van's
suggests is an RG-25 which is AGM. I don't happen to know of any they
sell for aircraft that are gel cell, maybe there are some.
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 9:01 PM, David McNeill <dlm46007@cox.net> wrote:
> Correction to previous post. Sensor will not be required for most
> situations. For any battery behind the closeout, the most feasible charging
> will take place with a 12V cigarette receptacle adjacent to or in the top
> piece; each connector will have ring terminals on the battery terminals. I
> have 2 680s there and will need two receptacles. A single cigarette plug can
> be matched to the special connector and plugged into the battery to be
> maintained. Concorde batteries fall to the gel category, Odyssey are AGM and
> I hope we don't have any unsealed batteries in the aircraft.
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