Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:59 AM - Re: Door-I'm the guy. (sportpilot)
2. 04:09 AM - Re: Another QB 10 Issue - Longeron Length (again) (sportpilot)
3. 04:21 AM - Re: Re: Control column mounts (Perry, Phil)
4. 04:52 AM - Re: Door-I'm the guy. (Wayne Edgerton)
5. 05:40 AM - Re: AFS - Alternator Warning (Ralph E. Capen)
6. 06:49 AM - Re: Door-I'm the guy. (johngoodman)
7. 07:55 AM - Re: Re: Door-I'm the guy. (Richard Bibb)
8. 08:16 AM - Re: Door-I'm the guy. (Dave Saylor)
9. 08:30 AM - Re: Re: Control column mounts (James Hein)
10. 09:14 AM - Re: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
11. 10:24 AM - Re: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? (Les Kearney)
12. 10:28 AM - Re: charger 12248 (David McNeill)
13. 10:32 AM - Re: Door-I'm the guy. (lbgjb10)
14. 10:45 AM - Re: Re: Door-I'm the guy. (David McNeill)
15. 11:11 AM - Re: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? (Jae Chang)
16. 11:13 AM - RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock (Les Kearney)
17. 12:10 PM - Re: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? (Les Kearney)
18. 12:21 PM - RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock (Les Kearney)
19. 01:28 PM - Re: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock (David McNeill)
20. 01:41 PM - Re: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
21. 01:52 PM - Re: AFS - Alternator Warning (Jim)
22. 01:54 PM - Re: AFS - Alternator Warning (Jim)
23. 02:18 PM - Re: Copperstate RV10 nest (woxofswa)
24. 03:56 PM - Re: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock (Strasnuts)
25. 04:04 PM - Re: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock (Les Kearney)
26. 04:20 PM - Re: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? (Rene)
27. 04:37 PM - Re: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock (Bob Turner)
28. 04:47 PM - Mounting engine (John Gonzalez)
29. 04:57 PM - Re: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock (David McNeill)
30. 04:58 PM - Re: Mounting engine (Lew Gallagher)
31. 05:15 PM - Re: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock (Bobby J. Hughes)
32. 05:48 PM - Re: Mounting engine (Kelly McMullen)
33. 06:45 PM - Re: Re: Copperstate RV10 nest (Pascal)
34. 07:08 PM - Re: Re: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock (Robin Marks)
35. 08:39 PM - Re: Mounting engine (Marcus Cooper)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Door-I'm the guy. |
I just finished installing the door latch last week and I can readily see what
I think is the problem. the door is flexible fore and aft, and the rear end tends
to shift out of the frame when closing. And The gasket wants to push the
door out. I opened and closed about 100 times from the outside and consistently
the rear end wants to ride out. To me it seems the alternate pull handle
near the rear of the door is a very safe and operational fix, and a careful visual
check of the rear door frame to be sure it has seated firmly against the
gasket. then operate the handle to extend the pins. Also, you can pick up a
few fractional inches of pin extension by sliding the rack gear out one or 2 teeth
on the cog before assembly, just as long as you have full retraction. Just
my 2 cents.
--------
Claude
KAYS airport
Building RV 10
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266223#266223
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| Subject: | Re: Another QB 10 Issue - Longeron Length (again) |
I had to trim the longeron, but not that much. I cut off about one inch or less.
possibly my kit had shorter longerons to begin with.
--------
Claude
KAYS airport
Building RV 10
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266224#266224
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| Subject: | Re: Control column mounts |
I tested them a couple of ways.
1) I crept up on the torque values until I could get it to budget.
- 85 inches
2) I marked a few nuts (before I touched them) so I knew where they
started.
a. Then backed them off to neutral
b. Torque back to 25 inches
They were all at around 1 flat too far.
From: Rob Kochman [mailto:rv10rob@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Control column mounts
If they start turning at 85 in-lbs, that doesn't mean they were torqued
to 85, correct? Isn't extra torque required to "break free"?
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Perry, Phil <Phil.Perry@netapp.com>
wrote:
Thought I'd share this piece of knowledge with the QB group too.
Check the torque values of all your QB installed AN3 hardware. I
started sneaking up on mine the other night to see what value they were
tourqed to.
Any guesses????
85 inches.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Turner [mailto:bobturner@alum.rpi.edu]
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 12:39 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Control column mounts
In his case, the QB guys have already installed it, without removing
material.
I see no interference issues, just a little extra weight. But I'm not
flying yet!
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266088#266088
tilities such as List Un/Subscription,
www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Wings
Woodinville, WA (near Seattle)
http://kochman.net/N819K
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| Subject: | Re: Door-I'm the guy. |
John,
I'm glad that all ended well without major damage to you plane or
person. I've had doors come open on Beechcraft planes I've owned but
the door hinges forward so other than an annoyance it's not such a big
deal like it is on an RV10.
For whatever it's worth, because of all the issues that have occurred
with doors coming open, I never allow a passenger to close the door. I
stay outside of the airplane until the passengers are loaded in, then I
close the passenger door from the outside myself and assure that I have
a positive lock and can obviously see that the pins are in. Once in and
started I have the warning lights at the top of the panel and that is
part of my check.
I know for me, because of all the incidences, the doors are one of my
top pre-takeoff checks.
Wayne Edgerton
N602WT
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| Subject: | Re: AFS - Alternator Warning |
Glad this ended nicely - I have mine set so that it alarms if my RPM's
go over 1500. Since I have two alternators, my checklist is to bring
the backup online first and look for its light. When I bring the
primary online the secondary light goes out.
Battery backup is a wonderful safety feature.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 8:27 PM
Subject: RV10-List: AFS - Alternator Warning
I am flying with an AFS 3500EE EFIS / Engine Monitor.
Yesterday the airplane was being flown and the fuse blew on the
alternator field circuit causing the alternator go off line. Turns out
the alternator AMPS warning is OFF by default and no warning was heard.
It wasn't until the battery was low that an audible / visual alert was
presented on the EFIS. Not sure just how long it took for the battery
to get to the low voltage warning condition. I have copied the flight
data from the EFIS and will review the data to see just how long it
took.
The EFIS went to backup battery during the flight and the flight was
terminated with no other problems.
This is just a heads up to those flying with the AFS EFIS to check the
alternator AMPS setting in the configuration pages should you want an
immediate warning for alternator current. Knowing you have a problem
sooner than later is desirable.
I did not have the alternator lamp wired (Didn't think I needed it
with the EFIS audible alerts). I will be adding this to the panel in
the near future.
I love the EFIS, I just missed getting this setting correct.
Jim Combs (N312F - 110+ hours)
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Door-I'm the guy. |
> I never allow a passenger to close the door.
It's a sad day when a pilot cannot allow a passenger to close his own door. I guess
cracking the door open during long taxis on hot days is out.
The door design is flawed and needs to be changed.
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine & Panel
delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266251#266251
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Door-I'm the guy. |
You know, when I was at Oshkosh I paid the $50 so I could get a demo ride in
the -10. I'd just bought a partially finished kit and figured I really
ought to make sure I liked the airplane. Not being a rookie and all I did
think it a bit odd that I wasn't allowed to latch the door....
I'd love to re-engineer that latch and offer a after-market fix for this but
my fuselage kit just shipped so I'm a ways away from even thinking about the
doors but when I do I hope to come up with something more foolproof. I'm
thinking some sort of bottom latch that engages at the sill such that, even
in the event of it not being completely clamped down the door could only
partially open even under air loads.
But there's a lot of work to get this right and I might be too impatient to
put in the effort required. Safe to say I'll do something more than the
basic stock arrangement. Time will tell...
Richard Bibb
972-771-2598
972-835-5979 mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:49 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Door-I'm the guy.
> I never allow a passenger to close the door.
It's a sad day when a pilot cannot allow a passenger to close his own door.
I guess cracking the door open during long taxis on hot days is out.
The door design is flawed and needs to be changed.
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine &
Panel delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266251#266251
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Door-I'm the guy. |
John,
Thanks so much for your account of the episode. I was starting to get a
little bored with my routine: I push on the back of each door just before
take-off. Now I know I'll stick with that checklist item for good.
What type of door seal do you have? I wrote a few days ago that I think the
Van's bulb seal does a disservice to being able to effectively close the
door. I have foam seals that IMO work much better.
Another point is that if the pins are installed per the plans, the bevels
get installed with the long edge outboard. Presumably, that ensures more
engagement with the fuselage uprights since the long edge of the pin is
outboard, contacting metal. But that arrangement also helps the pins miss
the hole unless the door is pulled all the way in during latching. When I
re-rigged my doors I turned the bevel around to face "angled edge out", so
that the pins would be more likely to engage. The bevel then helps pull the
door in, even if the door isn't quite closed. Since I also installed metal
guide blocks at the same time, I was sure I was getting a good, solid,
metal-on-metal pin engagement.
You did a great job Flying The Plane. Even the other -10 that had the tail
strike seemed to land well enough. We should take away from this that a
lost door clearly doesn't have to result in an accident if we remember to
fly the plane.
******Shameless plug warning******
Insurance pays (AirCrafters) well for door repairs, too, in case you don't
want to do it yourself--I never do MY own surgery ;-)
Best Regards,
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Control column mounts |
It was more of a curiosity more than anything; I didn't see anything
that would interfere in the plans, but previously the plans for other
parts had said "If desired, remove xxx if desired for lightening...." or
something like that.
I've got a mill (and a lathe ;)), so doing it per the plans is not an
issue (and what I plan on doing).
-Jim 40384
do not archive
orchidman wrote:
>
> Looking at my pictures, I don't think there is anything that would get in the
way. Not sure why you don't want to remove it. I didn't have any problems removing
the material and then finishing it.
> I would suggest following the plans.
>
> --------
> Gary Blankenbiller
> RV10 - # 40674
> (N2GB Flying)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=265961#265961
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? |
Dave, I'm getting ready to re-search the list for seal information so I
can finish off my doors. I know you've mentioned your preference for
foam seals over the Van's bulb type. I know others have used other bulb
type seals.
What do you think the trade-offs are for the foam seal? Does it work
well relative to rain?
What exactly did you use?
Thanks
Bill "trying to figure out what to do next and hoping it doesn't involve
sanding fiberglass" Watson
Dave Saylor wrote:
> John,
>
> Thanks so much for your account of the episode. I was starting to get
> a little bored with my routine: I push on the back of each door just
> before take-off. Now I know I'll stick with that checklist item for good.
>
> What type of door seal do you have? I wrote a few days ago that I
> think the Van's bulb seal does a disservice to being able to
> effectively close the door. I have foam seals that IMO work much better.
>
> Another point is that if the pins are installed per the plans, the
> bevels get installed with the long edge outboard. Presumably, that
> ensures more engagement with the fuselage uprights since the long edge
> of the pin is outboard, contacting metal. But that arrangement also
> helps the pins miss the hole unless the door is pulled all the way in
> during latching. When I re-rigged my doors I turned the bevel around
> to face "angled edge out", so that the pins would be more likely to
> engage. The bevel then helps pull the door in, even if the door isn't
> quite closed. Since I also installed metal guide blocks at the same
> time, I was sure I was getting a good, solid, metal-on-metal pin
> engagement.
>
> You did a great job Flying The Plane. Even the other -10 that had the
> tail strike seemed to land well enough. We should take away from this
> that a lost door clearly doesn't have to result in an accident if we
> remember to fly the plane.
>
> ******Shameless plug warning******
>
> Insurance pays (AirCrafters) well for door repairs, too, in case you
> don't want to do it yourself--I never do MY own surgery ;-)
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters LLC
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 11
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| Subject: | Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? |
Bill
Many builders have used the McMaster Carr edge grip seals (see
http://www.mcmaster.com/#1120a732/=3wg8ba (type 3 seals). I bought lots so I
could use some as "sacrificial seals" while I was doing the initial fit of
my doors. That way I could ensure that the doors didn't become more
difficult to close after the seals were installed. Apparently the door
geometry can change after seals are installed so it is best to fit the doors
with them. Whatever seals you plan on using, I recommend that be on the
doors when fitting.
Using the above seals will require f/g work - Oh Joy!
Cheers
Les
#409643 - Living in f/g hell
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Mauledriver
Watson
Sent: October-03-09 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals?
<MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
Dave, I'm getting ready to re-search the list for seal information so I
can finish off my doors. I know you've mentioned your preference for
foam seals over the Van's bulb type. I know others have used other bulb
type seals.
What do you think the trade-offs are for the foam seal? Does it work
well relative to rain?
What exactly did you use?
Thanks
Bill "trying to figure out what to do next and hoping it doesn't involve
sanding fiberglass" Watson
Dave Saylor wrote:
> John,
>
> Thanks so much for your account of the episode. I was starting to get
> a little bored with my routine: I push on the back of each door just
> before take-off. Now I know I'll stick with that checklist item for good.
>
> What type of door seal do you have? I wrote a few days ago that I
> think the Van's bulb seal does a disservice to being able to
> effectively close the door. I have foam seals that IMO work much better.
>
> Another point is that if the pins are installed per the plans, the
> bevels get installed with the long edge outboard. Presumably, that
> ensures more engagement with the fuselage uprights since the long edge
> of the pin is outboard, contacting metal. But that arrangement also
> helps the pins miss the hole unless the door is pulled all the way in
> during latching. When I re-rigged my doors I turned the bevel around
> to face "angled edge out", so that the pins would be more likely to
> engage. The bevel then helps pull the door in, even if the door isn't
> quite closed. Since I also installed metal guide blocks at the same
> time, I was sure I was getting a good, solid, metal-on-metal pin
> engagement.
>
> You did a great job Flying The Plane. Even the other -10 that had the
> tail strike seemed to land well enough. We should take away from this
> that a lost door clearly doesn't have to result in an accident if we
> remember to fly the plane.
>
> ******Shameless plug warning******
>
> Insurance pays (AirCrafters) well for door repairs, too, in case you
> don't want to do it yourself--I never do MY own surgery ;-)
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters LLC
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 12
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|
I was not referring to the RGs; I have several old Concordes; also
instructions say if uncertain assume GEL and 2A charge.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: charger 12248
Not sure which Concorde batteries you are referring to David. The RG series
are all AGM. The CB series are wet cell. The battery Van's suggests is an
RG-25 which is AGM. I don't happen to know of any they sell for aircraft
that are gel cell, maybe there are some.
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 9:01 PM, David McNeill <dlm46007@cox.net> wrote:
> Correction to previous post. Sensor will not be required for most
> situations. For any battery behind the closeout, the most feasible
> charging will take place with a 12V cigarette receptacle adjacent to
> or in the top piece; each connector will have ring terminals on the
> battery terminals. I have 2 680s there and will need two receptacles.
> A single cigarette plug can be matched to the special connector and
> plugged into the battery to be maintained. Concorde batteries fall to
> the gel category, Odyssey are AGM and I hope we don't have any unsealed
batteries in the aircraft.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Door-I'm the guy. |
glad good piloting allowed for a good outcome. I agree with Wayne--except for
my copilot/cobuilder, (and even sometimes with her) I always close the door from
the outside. easy to see that things are ok. We also use safety straps.
with my door ajar for taxi, it's cool enough. Does seem to me that someone could
engineer much longer pins, and have a double set, fore and aft. larry
--------
Larry and Gayle N104LG
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266291#266291
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Door-I'm the guy. |
I had to close the doors on my C177RG for 29 years. The aft pin was pulled
in the same way as the 10 and if not careful of the feel, the passenger
could just keep pushing on the handle and shear the latch pin it which case
the door had to disassembled to be locked and the aircraft flown to where it
could await a new part from Cessna. Also I have never been asked by a crew
member aboard the Boeings to close a door. A friend and I discussed a design
this morning that would not only pin the aft door frame with sufficient
length but would also put a vertical pin in the door sill. Since we have
unfinished door on the inside, another friend and I will discuss the
mechanics of a real fix tomorrow AM during the regular breakfast flight.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of johngoodman
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 6:49 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Door-I'm the guy.
--> <johngoodman@earthlink.net>
> I never allow a passenger to close the door.
It's a sad day when a pilot cannot allow a passenger to close his own door.
I guess cracking the door open during long taxis on hot days is out.
The door design is flawed and needs to be changed.
John
--------
#40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished. Finish Kit progressing. Engine &
Panel delivery soon.
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266251#266251
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? |
Les, what has your experience been so far with the edge seals? I guess I
should order some of it to test myself. It seems like I can forsee a few
fitting issues.
The edge of my fiberglass door frames seem to vary from 1/8" up to 1/4".
The lower parts of the door frame are thinner and the upper parts, esp.
around the top forward corner and top aft corners have thicker edges.
Did you have any edge fitting issues?
Which Type 3 seals did you use again? Edge A B and C dimensions?
Thanks!
Jae
40533
Les Kearney wrote:
>
> Bill
>
> Many builders have used the McMaster Carr edge grip seals (see
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#1120a732/=3wg8ba (type 3 seals). I bought lots so I
> could use some as "sacrificial seals" while I was doing the initial fit of
> my doors. That way I could ensure that the doors didn't become more
> difficult to close after the seals were installed. Apparently the door
> geometry can change after seals are installed so it is best to fit the doors
> with them. Whatever seals you plan on using, I recommend that be on the
> doors when fitting.
>
> Using the above seals will require f/g work - Oh Joy!
>
> Cheers
>
> Les
> #409643 - Living in f/g hell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Mauledriver
> Watson
> Sent: October-03-09 10:06 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals?
>
> <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
>
> Dave, I'm getting ready to re-search the list for seal information so I
> can finish off my doors. I know you've mentioned your preference for
> foam seals over the Van's bulb type. I know others have used other bulb
> type seals.
>
> What do you think the trade-offs are for the foam seal? Does it work
> well relative to rain?
>
> What exactly did you use?
>
> Thanks
> Bill "trying to figure out what to do next and hoping it doesn't involve
> sanding fiberglass" Watson
>
> Dave Saylor wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> Thanks so much for your account of the episode. I was starting to get
>> a little bored with my routine: I push on the back of each door just
>> before take-off. Now I know I'll stick with that checklist item for good.
>>
>> What type of door seal do you have? I wrote a few days ago that I
>> think the Van's bulb seal does a disservice to being able to
>> effectively close the door. I have foam seals that IMO work much better.
>>
>> Another point is that if the pins are installed per the plans, the
>> bevels get installed with the long edge outboard. Presumably, that
>> ensures more engagement with the fuselage uprights since the long edge
>> of the pin is outboard, contacting metal. But that arrangement also
>> helps the pins miss the hole unless the door is pulled all the way in
>> during latching. When I re-rigged my doors I turned the bevel around
>> to face "angled edge out", so that the pins would be more likely to
>> engage. The bevel then helps pull the door in, even if the door isn't
>> quite closed. Since I also installed metal guide blocks at the same
>> time, I was sure I was getting a good, solid, metal-on-metal pin
>> engagement.
>>
>> You did a great job Flying The Plane. Even the other -10 that had the
>> tail strike seemed to land well enough. We should take away from this
>> that a lost door clearly doesn't have to result in an accident if we
>> remember to fly the plane.
>>
>> ******Shameless plug warning******
>>
>> Insurance pays (AirCrafters) well for door repairs, too, in case you
>> don't want to do it yourself--I never do MY own surgery ;-)
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Dave Saylor
>> AirCrafters LLC
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock |
Hi
I am been fretting over the -10 door opening events ever since I first heard
about them. I don't think an unlatched door should be catastrophic nor do I
think we should rely solely on memory (doing a check) to be our first and
last line of defence. I have on a couple of occasions, left my Cherokee door
unlatched on takeoff. It was at worst a minor inconvenience and I have since
mastered the art of latching it in flight (safely).
All that being said, I have been trolling the archives looking for various
solutions. None seemed to fit my *must* requirements which are:
* Any interlock should be operable from the outside of the aircraft.
This is a huge safety issue - I don't want to be trapped in an a/c after an
accident.
* It should not operate if the doors are not aligned correctly for
proper latching (this would prevent misaligned doors from being appearing to
be closed when not)
* It should not make door operation more difficult (i.e. stiffer /
harder to latch / more steps)
* It should be easily installed
* It should be mechanically simple
A very nice to have requirement is that it should operate is that it should
automagically operate when the door is closed.
Attached is a side view sketch of a design that came about after I saw how
Steve Deniri integrated his billet handles into the -10 door. Basically it
involves a 1/8" "knife blade" piece of AL (steel?) that drop into a notch in
the door sill as the door is latched. There is a guide block embedded in the
door that would cause the blade to swing down the door is latched or swing
up as it is unlatched. For those who haven't seen Steve's system, he uses a
saddle which is pop rivettted to the door tubes to cause a lever to be moved
when the door tubes moved.
My thought is that the if the receiving slot in the door sill is just a
little oversized as compared to the knife blade, the should be little or no
more extra effort required to latch / unlatch the door.
I would also ensure that the blade could not be forced down into the
receiving slot if the door was open too far for the door pins to engage the
door locks. This just a matter of alignment and positioning.
The receiving block would be attached to the inside of the door using
threaded screws. I would think that if the receiving block was made of
sandwiched 1/4" thick AL, fabrication wouldn't be too difficult.
After noodling the sketch for a while, I think it would be best if this was
installed in the aft 1/3 of the door, mirror image of what is shown. That
way if the door was being pushed back, the knife blade would not be pulled
out of the door sill notch.
Anyway, I am just a dumb ^*%^ accountant and not an engineer. I would
appreciate any comments before I try to fab a prototype of the RV10 Mark 1
Door Interlock.
Cheers
Les
#40643 - Happily distracted from f/g hell
Message 17
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| Subject: | Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? |
Jae
I used part # 1120A313 - (3/16 grip with a 3/8" bulb).
I used a Dremel with a small drum sander to even up the flanges for the
seals. Some places the f/g was hugely thick and others almost perfect.
I found that it was difficult to get an even line where I had to notch into
the flange due to thickness. After I had fitted the seals, I covered the
seal flange with packing tape, put in place and filled any gaps with
superfill. The result was a clean edge where the notch meets the edge of the
seal.
I hope that is clear, if not I will see if I took any pix.
Although fitting the doors with the seals in place was a lot of work but the
end result is that I have a consistent seal around the doors. Now the doors
open and close without a lot of effort. I can't image doing this, then
fitting seals, and then adjusting again due to the seal changing the
geometry.
Here is the single most important think I did to get the doors to close
easily. I found that the pressure of the seals on the bottom of the door
made closing hard. There is little leverage at the bottom of the door to
compress the seals. To fix, I pushed the bottom of the f/g door frame in
board about 1/8". This reduces the amount of compression on the door seal at
the bottom of the door made closing much, much easier.
I didn't final drill the door opening holes (#19 & #12) until after I
finished fitting the doors. This made adjusting the position of the door
frame very simple. (It easier to fill & move small #30 hole than #19 & # 12
holes).
In a couple of places I moved the door flange by building up the back side
and then removing material from the face.
None of this was hard, it was just time consuming. And I just love f/g dust.
Cheers
Les
#40643 - living in f/g hell
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jae Chang
Sent: October-03-09 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals?
Les, what has your experience been so far with the edge seals? I guess I
should order some of it to test myself. It seems like I can forsee a few
fitting issues.
The edge of my fiberglass door frames seem to vary from 1/8" up to 1/4".
The lower parts of the door frame are thinner and the upper parts, esp.
around the top forward corner and top aft corners have thicker edges.
Did you have any edge fitting issues?
Which Type 3 seals did you use again? Edge A B and C dimensions?
Thanks!
Jae
40533
Les Kearney wrote:
>
> Bill
>
> Many builders have used the McMaster Carr edge grip seals (see
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#1120a732/=3wg8ba (type 3 seals). I bought lots so
I
> could use some as "sacrificial seals" while I was doing the initial fit of
> my doors. That way I could ensure that the doors didn't become more
> difficult to close after the seals were installed. Apparently the door
> geometry can change after seals are installed so it is best to fit the
doors
> with them. Whatever seals you plan on using, I recommend that be on the
> doors when fitting.
>
> Using the above seals will require f/g work - Oh Joy!
>
> Cheers
>
> Les
> #409643 - Living in f/g hell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Mauledriver
> Watson
> Sent: October-03-09 10:06 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals?
>
> <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
>
> Dave, I'm getting ready to re-search the list for seal information so I
> can finish off my doors. I know you've mentioned your preference for
> foam seals over the Van's bulb type. I know others have used other bulb
> type seals.
>
> What do you think the trade-offs are for the foam seal? Does it work
> well relative to rain?
>
> What exactly did you use?
>
> Thanks
> Bill "trying to figure out what to do next and hoping it doesn't involve
> sanding fiberglass" Watson
>
> Dave Saylor wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> Thanks so much for your account of the episode. I was starting to get
>> a little bored with my routine: I push on the back of each door just
>> before take-off. Now I know I'll stick with that checklist item for
good.
>>
>> What type of door seal do you have? I wrote a few days ago that I
>> think the Van's bulb seal does a disservice to being able to
>> effectively close the door. I have foam seals that IMO work much better.
>>
>> Another point is that if the pins are installed per the plans, the
>> bevels get installed with the long edge outboard. Presumably, that
>> ensures more engagement with the fuselage uprights since the long edge
>> of the pin is outboard, contacting metal. But that arrangement also
>> helps the pins miss the hole unless the door is pulled all the way in
>> during latching. When I re-rigged my doors I turned the bevel around
>> to face "angled edge out", so that the pins would be more likely to
>> engage. The bevel then helps pull the door in, even if the door isn't
>> quite closed. Since I also installed metal guide blocks at the same
>> time, I was sure I was getting a good, solid, metal-on-metal pin
>> engagement.
>>
>> You did a great job Flying The Plane. Even the other -10 that had the
>> tail strike seemed to land well enough. We should take away from this
>> that a lost door clearly doesn't have to result in an accident if we
>> remember to fly the plane.
>>
>> ******Shameless plug warning******
>>
>> Insurance pays (AirCrafters) well for door repairs, too, in case you
>> don't want to do it yourself--I never do MY own surgery ;-)
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Dave Saylor
>> AirCrafters LLC
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock |
Hi
I am not sure if my post below didn't come through due to the size of the
attachment. I have shrunk the sketch so perhaps this will work now.
Cheers
Les
_____
From: Les Kearney [mailto:kearney@shaw.ca]
Sent: October-03-09 12:12 PM
Subject: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock
Hi
I am been fretting over the -10 door opening events ever since I first heard
about them. I don't think an unlatched door should be catastrophic nor do I
think we should rely solely on memory (doing a check) to be our first and
last line of defence. I have on a couple of occasions, left my Cherokee door
unlatched on takeoff. It was at worst a minor inconvenience and I have since
mastered the art of latching it in flight (safely).
All that being said, I have been trolling the archives looking for various
solutions. None seemed to fit my *must* requirements which are:
* Any interlock should be operable from the outside of the aircraft.
This is a huge safety issue - I don't want to be trapped in an a/c after an
accident.
* It should not operate if the doors are not aligned correctly for
proper latching (this would prevent misaligned doors from being appearing to
be closed when not)
* It should not make door operation more difficult (i.e. stiffer /
harder to latch / more steps)
* It should be easily installed
* It should be mechanically simple
A very nice to have requirement is that it should operate is that it should
automagically operate when the door is closed.
Attached is a side view sketch of a design that came about after I saw how
Steve Deniri integrated his billet handles into the -10 door. Basically it
involves a 1/8" "knife blade" piece of AL (steel?) that drop into a notch in
the door sill as the door is latched. There is a guide block embedded in the
door that would cause the blade to swing down the door is latched or swing
up as it is unlatched. For those who haven't seen Steve's system, he uses a
saddle which is pop rivettted to the door tubes to cause a lever to be moved
when the door tubes moved.
My thought is that the if the receiving slot in the door sill is just a
little oversized as compared to the knife blade, the should be little or no
more extra effort required to latch / unlatch the door.
I would also ensure that the blade could not be forced down into the
receiving slot if the door was open too far for the door pins to engage the
door locks. This just a matter of alignment and positioning.
The receiving block would be attached to the inside of the door using
threaded screws. I would think that if the receiving block was made of
sandwiched 1/4" thick AL, fabrication wouldn't be too difficult.
After noodling the sketch for a while, I think it would be best if this was
installed in the aft 1/3 of the door, mirror image of what is shown. That
way if the door was being pushed back, the knife blade would not be pulled
out of the door sill notch.
Anyway, I am just a dumb ^*%^ accountant and not an engineer. I would
appreciate any comments before I try to fab a prototype of the RV10 Mark 1
Door Interlock.
Cheers
Les
#40643 - Happily distracted from f/g hell
Message 19
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| Subject: | RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock |
This is similar to what Mike and I were discussing this morning. Except that
the vertical piece would also be a beveled pin of the same material and the
rear pin and vertical pin would be driven on a cam where the vertical pin
would precede the rear pin slightly so that the vertical pin would pull in
the rear portion of the door and the cam would also allow greater
penetration of the rear vertical piece. failure of the vertical piece to
insert would prevent closing the handle but closing it would ensure that
both rear pins are inserted. People still do the same thing. Both inside and
outside there is but one handle action to open/close the door. This said I
will still close and check the doors.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 11:12 AM
Subject: RV10-List: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock
Hi
I am been fretting over the -10 door opening events ever since I first heard
about them. I don't think an unlatched door should be catastrophic nor do I
think we should rely solely on memory (doing a check) to be our first and
last line of defence. I have on a couple of occasions, left my Cherokee door
unlatched on takeoff. It was at worst a minor inconvenience and I have since
mastered the art of latching it in flight (safely).
All that being said, I have been trolling the archives looking for various
solutions. None seemed to fit my *must* requirements which are:
* Any interlock should be operable from the outside of the aircraft.
This is a huge safety issue - I don't want to be trapped in an a/c after an
accident.
* It should not operate if the doors are not aligned correctly for
proper latching (this would prevent misaligned doors from being appearing to
be closed when not)
* It should not make door operation more difficult (i.e. stiffer /
harder to latch / more steps)
* It should be easily installed
* It should be mechanically simple
A very nice to have requirement is that it should operate is that it should
automagically operate when the door is closed.
Attached is a side view sketch of a design that came about after I saw how
Steve Deniri integrated his billet handles into the -10 door. Basically it
involves a 1/8" "knife blade" piece of AL (steel?) that drop into a notch in
the door sill as the door is latched. There is a guide block embedded in the
door that would cause the blade to swing down the door is latched or swing
up as it is unlatched. For those who haven't seen Steve's system, he uses a
saddle which is pop rivettted to the door tubes to cause a lever to be moved
when the door tubes moved.
My thought is that the if the receiving slot in the door sill is just a
little oversized as compared to the knife blade, the should be little or no
more extra effort required to latch / unlatch the door.
I would also ensure that the blade could not be forced down into the
receiving slot if the door was open too far for the door pins to engage the
door locks. This just a matter of alignment and positioning.
The receiving block would be attached to the inside of the door using
threaded screws. I would think that if the receiving block was made of
sandwiched 1/4" thick AL, fabrication wouldn't be too difficult.
After noodling the sketch for a while, I think it would be best if this was
installed in the aft 1/3 of the door, mirror image of what is shown. That
way if the door was being pushed back, the knife blade would not be pulled
out of the door sill notch.
Anyway, I am just a dumb ^*%^ accountant and not an engineer. I would
appreciate any comments before I try to fab a prototype of the RV10 Mark 1
Door Interlock.
Cheers
Les
#40643 - Happily distracted from f/g hell
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? |
I'll second pretty much everything that Les said as I'm sure would Deems, Rick,
etc. It's not a trivial task to switch to the edge seals but, IMHO, the end
result is much better than the factory setup. I spent probably an additional
20 hours getting the edge sanded down and built back up in the right spots to
get a good fit and I still have some of the extra pressure to overcome as Les
describes on the bottom of the door. Without the seals my doors drop into place
and lock with no effort. With the seals on, well, I need to work on that.
:) Once I get my doors back from Abby I'll probably look closer at that again
and try and reduce some of the pressure.
One other thing I did was to slice the little barb off from the inside of the
seal. This greatly improved the fit on the door frame. For anyone that thinks
venturing from the plans method is straight forward, think again. When it's
all said and done I probably have at least 130 hours into my doors from beginning
to end. These types of mods probably contributed about 40 hours to it.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 2:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals?
Jae
I used part # 1120A313 - (3/16 grip with a 3/8" bulb).
I used a Dremel with a small drum sander to even up the flanges for the
seals. Some places the f/g was hugely thick and others almost perfect.
I found that it was difficult to get an even line where I had to notch into
the flange due to thickness. After I had fitted the seals, I covered the
seal flange with packing tape, put in place and filled any gaps with
superfill. The result was a clean edge where the notch meets the edge of the
seal.
I hope that is clear, if not I will see if I took any pix.
Although fitting the doors with the seals in place was a lot of work but the
end result is that I have a consistent seal around the doors. Now the doors
open and close without a lot of effort. I can't image doing this, then
fitting seals, and then adjusting again due to the seal changing the
geometry.
Here is the single most important think I did to get the doors to close
easily. I found that the pressure of the seals on the bottom of the door
made closing hard. There is little leverage at the bottom of the door to
compress the seals. To fix, I pushed the bottom of the f/g door frame in
board about 1/8". This reduces the amount of compression on the door seal at
the bottom of the door made closing much, much easier.
I didn't final drill the door opening holes (#19 & #12) until after I
finished fitting the doors. This made adjusting the position of the door
frame very simple. (It easier to fill & move small #30 hole than #19 & # 12
holes).
In a couple of places I moved the door flange by building up the back side
and then removing material from the face.
None of this was hard, it was just time consuming. And I just love f/g dust.
Cheers
Les
#40643 - living in f/g hell
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jae Chang
Sent: October-03-09 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals?
Les, what has your experience been so far with the edge seals? I guess I
should order some of it to test myself. It seems like I can forsee a few
fitting issues.
The edge of my fiberglass door frames seem to vary from 1/8" up to 1/4".
The lower parts of the door frame are thinner and the upper parts, esp.
around the top forward corner and top aft corners have thicker edges.
Did you have any edge fitting issues?
Which Type 3 seals did you use again? Edge A B and C dimensions?
Thanks!
Jae
40533
Les Kearney wrote:
>
> Bill
>
> Many builders have used the McMaster Carr edge grip seals (see
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#1120a732/=3wg8ba (type 3 seals). I bought lots so
I
> could use some as "sacrificial seals" while I was doing the initial fit of
> my doors. That way I could ensure that the doors didn't become more
> difficult to close after the seals were installed. Apparently the door
> geometry can change after seals are installed so it is best to fit the
doors
> with them. Whatever seals you plan on using, I recommend that be on the
> doors when fitting.
>
> Using the above seals will require f/g work - Oh Joy!
>
> Cheers
>
> Les
> #409643 - Living in f/g hell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Mauledriver
> Watson
> Sent: October-03-09 10:06 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals?
>
> <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
>
> Dave, I'm getting ready to re-search the list for seal information so I
> can finish off my doors. I know you've mentioned your preference for
> foam seals over the Van's bulb type. I know others have used other bulb
> type seals.
>
> What do you think the trade-offs are for the foam seal? Does it work
> well relative to rain?
>
> What exactly did you use?
>
> Thanks
> Bill "trying to figure out what to do next and hoping it doesn't involve
> sanding fiberglass" Watson
>
> Dave Saylor wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> Thanks so much for your account of the episode. I was starting to get
>> a little bored with my routine: I push on the back of each door just
>> before take-off. Now I know I'll stick with that checklist item for
good.
>>
>> What type of door seal do you have? I wrote a few days ago that I
>> think the Van's bulb seal does a disservice to being able to
>> effectively close the door. I have foam seals that IMO work much better.
>>
>> Another point is that if the pins are installed per the plans, the
>> bevels get installed with the long edge outboard. Presumably, that
>> ensures more engagement with the fuselage uprights since the long edge
>> of the pin is outboard, contacting metal. But that arrangement also
>> helps the pins miss the hole unless the door is pulled all the way in
>> during latching. When I re-rigged my doors I turned the bevel around
>> to face "angled edge out", so that the pins would be more likely to
>> engage. The bevel then helps pull the door in, even if the door isn't
>> quite closed. Since I also installed metal guide blocks at the same
>> time, I was sure I was getting a good, solid, metal-on-metal pin
>> engagement.
>>
>> You did a great job Flying The Plane. Even the other -10 that had the
>> tail strike seemed to land well enough. We should take away from this
>> that a lost door clearly doesn't have to result in an accident if we
>> remember to fly the plane.
>>
>> ******Shameless plug warning******
>>
>> Insurance pays (AirCrafters) well for door repairs, too, in case you
>> don't want to do it yourself--I never do MY own surgery ;-)
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Dave Saylor
>> AirCrafters LLC
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>
>
>
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | AFS - Alternator Warning |
I am not sure what the low battery warning is set to. I will check
it.
Thanks, Jim C
Do Not Archive
---------------------------------
Recommend you set the EFIS
(or whatever engine monitoring system being
used)
to alarm on
low voltage. With the alternator on line your buss voltage
will
be between 13.8 and 14.1 volts. A fully charged battery is
significantly
below this level. Setting a low voltage alarm at say
13.4 volts will
immediate tell you your alternator is off line.
Assuming a typical
battery
installation, and now knowing as soon
as the alternator fails, you should
have ample battery reserve for
continued flight to a convenient place to
land and get the alternator
fixed.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (500 hrs)
RV-10 (fuselage fiberglass work)
From:
owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 8:28 PM
To:
rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: AFS - Alternator
Warning
I am flying with an AFS 3500EE EFIS /
Engine Monitor.
Yesterday the airplane was being flown and the
fuse blew on the alternator
field circuit causing the alternator go
off line. Turns out the
alternator
AMPS warning is OFF by
default and no warning was heard. It wasn't until
the battery was
low that an audible / visual alert was presented on the
EFIS. Not
sure just how long it took for the battery to get to the low
voltage
warning condition. I have copied the flight data from the EFIS
and
will review the data to see just how long it took.
The EFIS went to backup battery during the flight and the flight was
terminated with no other problems.
This is just a heads up to
those flying with the AFS EFIS to check the
alternator AMPS setting
in the configuration pages should you want an
immediate warning for
alternator current. Knowing you have a problem
sooner
than
later is desirable.
I did not have the alternator lamp wired
(Didn't think I needed it with
the
EFIS audible alerts). I will
be adding this to the panel in the near
future.
I love the
EFIS, I just missed getting this setting correct.
Jim Combs
(N312F - 110+ hours)
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: AFS - Alternator Warning |
One of the items I will be verifying is how much time I have from alt
failure to systems going off line. We are running a 960 battery and
it should have plenty of backup capability. But I need to verify
what that is. The EFIS has it's own internal battery. So I
need to do two experiments. (1) Time from alt off to items going off
line and (2) battery voltage where EFIS goes to backup.
Thanks,
Jim C
Do Not Archive
Glad this ended nicely - I have
mine set so that it alarms if my RPM's go
over 1500. Since I have
two alternators, my checklist is to bring the
backup online first and
look for its light. When I bring the primary
online the secondary
light goes out.
Battery backup is a wonderful safety
feature.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 8:27
PM
Subject: RV10-List: AFS - Alternator Warning
I am flying with an AFS 3500EE EFIS / Engine Monitor.
Yesterday the airplane was being flown and the fuse blew on the
alternator field circuit causing the alternator go off line. Turns
out
the alternator AMPS warning is OFF by default and no warning was
heard.
It wasn't until the battery was low that an audible / visual
alert was
presented on the EFIS. Not sure just how long it took for
the battery
to get to the low voltage warning condition. I have
copied the flight
data from the EFIS and will review the data to see
just how long it
took.
The EFIS went to backup battery
during the flight and the flight was
terminated with no other
problems.
This is just a heads up to those flying with the
AFS EFIS to check the
alternator AMPS setting in the configuration
pages should you want an
immediate warning for alternator current.
Knowing you have a problem
sooner than later is desirable.
I did not have the alternator lamp wired (Didn't think I needed it
with
the EFIS audible alerts). I will be adding this to the panel in
the
near future.
I love the EFIS, I just missed getting
this setting correct.
Jim Combs (N312F - 110+ hours)
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Copperstate RV10 nest |
Don,
No worries. I am borrowing from my employer, SWA and its umpteenth and last chili
cookoffs that it has every year. (this year was thirty something).
For Copperstate, next year will be the third and last.
My only struggle will be that blessed year and beyond when I have to get both "RV's"
there.
Regardless of my participation, I hope it becomes an annual tradition that lasts
as long as the show itself does.
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266321#266321
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock |
I'm receiving my finish kit next week and will look over the door latches. I have
flown in RV-10's and I've seen all of the discussions. I am building my plane
in my father's machine shop. Maybe I will try something different. If anyone
has good ideas for the latch before bonding the doors, I'm listening.
Could you put the latch more in the middle of the door and machine a new part on
the inside that could move a third pin through the bottom of the door?
--------
Cust. #40936
RV-10 SB Fuselage
N801VR reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266330#266330
Message 25
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| Subject: | RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock |
David
I thought about a cam but couldn't see how to make it work because of the
interference with the long tubes in the door. I am interested in seeing what
you have in mind; I am always looking to borrow better ideas.
Cheers
Les
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: October-03-09 2:27 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock
This is similar to what Mike and I were discussing this morning. Except that
the vertical piece would also be a beveled pin of the same material and the
rear pin and vertical pin would be driven on a cam where the vertical pin
would precede the rear pin slightly so that the vertical pin would pull in
the rear portion of the door and the cam would also allow greater
penetration of the rear vertical piece. failure of the vertical piece to
insert would prevent closing the handle but closing it would ensure that
both rear pins are inserted. People still do the same thing. Both inside and
outside there is but one handle action to open/close the door. This said I
will still close and check the doors.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 11:12 AM
Subject: RV10-List: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock
Hi
I am been fretting over the -10 door opening events ever since I first heard
about them. I don't think an unlatched door should be catastrophic nor do I
think we should rely solely on memory (doing a check) to be our first and
last line of defence. I have on a couple of occasions, left my Cherokee door
unlatched on takeoff. It was at worst a minor inconvenience and I have since
mastered the art of latching it in flight (safely).
All that being said, I have been trolling the archives looking for various
solutions. None seemed to fit my *must* requirements which are:
* Any interlock should be operable from the outside of the aircraft.
This is a huge safety issue - I don't want to be trapped in an a/c after an
accident.
* It should not operate if the doors are not aligned correctly for
proper latching (this would prevent misaligned doors from being appearing to
be closed when not)
* It should not make door operation more difficult (i.e. stiffer /
harder to latch / more steps)
* It should be easily installed
* It should be mechanically simple
A very nice to have requirement is that it should operate is that it should
automagically operate when the door is closed.
Attached is a side view sketch of a design that came about after I saw how
Steve Deniri integrated his billet handles into the -10 door. Basically it
involves a 1/8" "knife blade" piece of AL (steel?) that drop into a notch in
the door sill as the door is latched. There is a guide block embedded in the
door that would cause the blade to swing down the door is latched or swing
up as it is unlatched. For those who haven't seen Steve's system, he uses a
saddle which is pop rivettted to the door tubes to cause a lever to be moved
when the door tubes moved.
My thought is that the if the receiving slot in the door sill is just a
little oversized as compared to the knife blade, the should be little or no
more extra effort required to latch / unlatch the door.
I would also ensure that the blade could not be forced down into the
receiving slot if the door was open too far for the door pins to engage the
door locks. This just a matter of alignment and positioning.
The receiving block would be attached to the inside of the door using
threaded screws. I would think that if the receiving block was made of
sandwiched 1/4" thick AL, fabrication wouldn't be too difficult.
After noodling the sketch for a while, I think it would be best if this was
installed in the aft 1/3 of the door, mirror image of what is shown. That
way if the door was being pushed back, the knife blade would not be pulled
out of the door sill notch.
Anyway, I am just a dumb ^*%^ accountant and not an engineer. I would
appreciate any comments before I try to fab a prototype of the RV10 Mark 1
Door Interlock.
Cheers
Les
#40643 - Happily distracted from f/g hell
Message 26
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| Subject: | Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals? |
Here is what I used.....I think they work great....I am not that picky
thou...
http://www.rvtraining.com/html/atp/rv10_door_seals.html
Rene'
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals?
Jae
I used part # 1120A313 - (3/16 grip with a 3/8" bulb).
I used a Dremel with a small drum sander to even up the flanges for the
seals. Some places the f/g was hugely thick and others almost perfect.
I found that it was difficult to get an even line where I had to notch into
the flange due to thickness. After I had fitted the seals, I covered the
seal flange with packing tape, put in place and filled any gaps with
superfill. The result was a clean edge where the notch meets the edge of the
seal.
I hope that is clear, if not I will see if I took any pix.
Although fitting the doors with the seals in place was a lot of work but the
end result is that I have a consistent seal around the doors. Now the doors
open and close without a lot of effort. I can't image doing this, then
fitting seals, and then adjusting again due to the seal changing the
geometry.
Here is the single most important think I did to get the doors to close
easily. I found that the pressure of the seals on the bottom of the door
made closing hard. There is little leverage at the bottom of the door to
compress the seals. To fix, I pushed the bottom of the f/g door frame in
board about 1/8". This reduces the amount of compression on the door seal at
the bottom of the door made closing much, much easier.
I didn't final drill the door opening holes (#19 & #12) until after I
finished fitting the doors. This made adjusting the position of the door
frame very simple. (It easier to fill & move small #30 hole than #19 & # 12
holes).
In a couple of places I moved the door flange by building up the back side
and then removing material from the face.
None of this was hard, it was just time consuming. And I just love f/g dust.
Cheers
Les
#40643 - living in f/g hell
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jae Chang
Sent: October-03-09 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals?
Les, what has your experience been so far with the edge seals? I guess I
should order some of it to test myself. It seems like I can forsee a few
fitting issues.
The edge of my fiberglass door frames seem to vary from 1/8" up to 1/4".
The lower parts of the door frame are thinner and the upper parts, esp.
around the top forward corner and top aft corners have thicker edges.
Did you have any edge fitting issues?
Which Type 3 seals did you use again? Edge A B and C dimensions?
Thanks!
Jae
40533
Les Kearney wrote:
>
> Bill
>
> Many builders have used the McMaster Carr edge grip seals (see
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#1120a732/=3wg8ba (type 3 seals). I bought lots so
I
> could use some as "sacrificial seals" while I was doing the initial fit of
> my doors. That way I could ensure that the doors didn't become more
> difficult to close after the seals were installed. Apparently the door
> geometry can change after seals are installed so it is best to fit the
doors
> with them. Whatever seals you plan on using, I recommend that be on the
> doors when fitting.
>
> Using the above seals will require f/g work - Oh Joy!
>
> Cheers
>
> Les
> #409643 - Living in f/g hell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Mauledriver
> Watson
> Sent: October-03-09 10:06 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy - how about those seals?
>
> <MauleDriver@nc.rr.com>
>
> Dave, I'm getting ready to re-search the list for seal information so I
> can finish off my doors. I know you've mentioned your preference for
> foam seals over the Van's bulb type. I know others have used other bulb
> type seals.
>
> What do you think the trade-offs are for the foam seal? Does it work
> well relative to rain?
>
> What exactly did you use?
>
> Thanks
> Bill "trying to figure out what to do next and hoping it doesn't involve
> sanding fiberglass" Watson
>
> Dave Saylor wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> Thanks so much for your account of the episode. I was starting to get
>> a little bored with my routine: I push on the back of each door just
>> before take-off. Now I know I'll stick with that checklist item for
good.
>>
>> What type of door seal do you have? I wrote a few days ago that I
>> think the Van's bulb seal does a disservice to being able to
>> effectively close the door. I have foam seals that IMO work much better.
>>
>> Another point is that if the pins are installed per the plans, the
>> bevels get installed with the long edge outboard. Presumably, that
>> ensures more engagement with the fuselage uprights since the long edge
>> of the pin is outboard, contacting metal. But that arrangement also
>> helps the pins miss the hole unless the door is pulled all the way in
>> during latching. When I re-rigged my doors I turned the bevel around
>> to face "angled edge out", so that the pins would be more likely to
>> engage. The bevel then helps pull the door in, even if the door isn't
>> quite closed. Since I also installed metal guide blocks at the same
>> time, I was sure I was getting a good, solid, metal-on-metal pin
>> engagement.
>>
>> You did a great job Flying The Plane. Even the other -10 that had the
>> tail strike seemed to land well enough. We should take away from this
>> that a lost door clearly doesn't have to result in an accident if we
>> remember to fly the plane.
>>
>> ******Shameless plug warning******
>>
>> Insurance pays (AirCrafters) well for door repairs, too, in case you
>> don't want to do it yourself--I never do MY own surgery ;-)
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Dave Saylor
>> AirCrafters LLC
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock |
Someone else has already suggested this, but I've thought about it and like it:
You can get 90% of the way to a better latch by simply removing the racks from
the handle mechanism, and substituting longer ones (about an inch longer). They
should be so long that the 'door open' position of the inside handle is now
nearly full aft, or maybe even more. What this does is gives you much more pin
engagement - over an inch, instead of 1/4", of solid pin thru the door frame.
This may be enough to hold the door even if one pin "missed" and is outside the
door.
Thoughts?
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266334#266334
Message 28
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Easy question:
Is it posible without too much effort to mount the engine without using the
taperred cylindrical bolt substitutes?
Getting ready to rent an engine hoist and can see not being able o get the
engine mounted unless I have these in my bag of tricks.
Thanks
John G.
Message 29
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| Subject: | RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock |
I haven't discussed with the engineer yet but first glance suggests that
because the low placement of the rear pin that a twin gear/cam would be
required near the aft end; this would require locating the door penetration
pin higher in the rear door frame. I do agree that whatever solution that is
to be implemented, it must remain a single motion lever (3 pin, fore,aft,
down) to open the door whether inside or out. Also its apparent that any
change will necessitate a large 4" by 4"? access panel attached to the door
by screws for installation and adjustment
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 3:58 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock
David
I thought about a cam but couldn't see how to make it work because of the
interference with the long tubes in the door. I am interested in seeing what
you have in mind; I am always looking to borrow better ideas.
Cheers
Les
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: October-03-09 2:27 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock
This is similar to what Mike and I were discussing this morning. Except that
the vertical piece would also be a beveled pin of the same material and the
rear pin and vertical pin would be driven on a cam where the vertical pin
would precede the rear pin slightly so that the vertical pin would pull in
the rear portion of the door and the cam would also allow greater
penetration of the rear vertical piece. failure of the vertical piece to
insert would prevent closing the handle but closing it would ensure that
both rear pins are inserted. People still do the same thing. Both inside and
outside there is but one handle action to open/close the door. This said I
will still close and check the doors.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 11:12 AM
Subject: RV10-List: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock
Hi
I am been fretting over the -10 door opening events ever since I first heard
about them. I don't think an unlatched door should be catastrophic nor do I
think we should rely solely on memory (doing a check) to be our first and
last line of defence. I have on a couple of occasions, left my Cherokee door
unlatched on takeoff. It was at worst a minor inconvenience and I have since
mastered the art of latching it in flight (safely).
All that being said, I have been trolling the archives looking for various
solutions. None seemed to fit my *must* requirements which are:
* Any interlock should be operable from the outside of the aircraft.
This is a huge safety issue - I don't want to be trapped in an a/c after an
accident.
* It should not operate if the doors are not aligned correctly for
proper latching (this would prevent misaligned doors from being appearing to
be closed when not)
* It should not make door operation more difficult (i.e. stiffer /
harder to latch / more steps)
* It should be easily installed
* It should be mechanically simple
A very nice to have requirement is that it should operate is that it should
automagically operate when the door is closed.
Attached is a side view sketch of a design that came about after I saw how
Steve Deniri integrated his billet handles into the -10 door. Basically it
involves a 1/8" "knife blade" piece of AL (steel?) that drop into a notch in
the door sill as the door is latched. There is a guide block embedded in the
door that would cause the blade to swing down the door is latched or swing
up as it is unlatched. For those who haven't seen Steve's system, he uses a
saddle which is pop rivettted to the door tubes to cause a lever to be moved
when the door tubes moved.
My thought is that the if the receiving slot in the door sill is just a
little oversized as compared to the knife blade, the should be little or no
more extra effort required to latch / unlatch the door.
I would also ensure that the blade could not be forced down into the
receiving slot if the door was open too far for the door pins to engage the
door locks. This just a matter of alignment and positioning.
The receiving block would be attached to the inside of the door using
threaded screws. I would think that if the receiving block was made of
sandwiched 1/4" thick AL, fabrication wouldn't be too difficult.
After noodling the sketch for a while, I think it would be best if this was
installed in the aft 1/3 of the door, mirror image of what is shown. That
way if the door was being pushed back, the knife blade would not be pulled
out of the door sill notch.
Anyway, I am just a dumb ^*%^ accountant and not an engineer. I would
appreciate any comments before I try to fab a prototype of the RV10 Mark 1
Door Interlock.
Cheers
Les
#40643 - Happily distracted from f/g hell
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Mounting engine |
Hey John,
Our engine aligned very easily just using the final bolts. I use an
engine leveler between the hoist and the engine to get the angle just
right. I did find that typically three of the four went in with no
problem, the the fourth took some jiggling. Eventually we found which
three made the fourth easier. With the engine leveler set, and the
pattern followed, we can put it on and take it off with ease.
Later, - Lew
----- Original Message -----
From: John Gonzalez
To: RV 10 group
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 7:46 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Mounting engine
Easy question:
Is it posible without too much effort to mount the engine without
using the taperred cylindrical bolt substitutes?
Getting ready to rent an engine hoist and can see not being able o get
the engine mounted unless I have these in my bag of tricks.
Thanks
John G.
Message 31
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| Subject: | RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock |
Here's a link to something similar. The vertical pin would need latch
inside the fiberglass door frame. The cam \ gears would need to be
offset inward.
http://www.express-builder.com/forum/messages/2/80.html?1138244699 Pics
at the bottom of page.
Bobby Hughes
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 2:27 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock
This is similar to what Mike and I were discussing this morning. Except
that the vertical piece would also be a beveled pin of the same material
and the rear pin and vertical pin would be driven on a cam where the
vertical pin would precede the rear pin slightly so that the vertical
pin would pull in the rear portion of the door and the cam would also
allow greater penetration of the rear vertical piece. failure of the
vertical piece to insert would prevent closing the handle but closing it
would ensure that both rear pins are inserted. People still do the same
thing. Both inside and outside there is but one handle action to
open/close the door. This said I will still close and check the doors.
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 11:12 AM
Subject: RV10-List: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock
Hi
I am been fretting over the -10 door opening events ever since I first
heard about them. I don't think an unlatched door should be catastrophic
nor do I think we should rely solely on memory (doing a check) to be our
first and last line of defence. I have on a couple of occasions, left my
Cherokee door unlatched on takeoff. It was at worst a minor
inconvenience and I have since mastered the art of latching it in flight
(safely).
All that being said, I have been trolling the archives looking for
various solutions. None seemed to fit my *must* requirements which are:
* Any interlock should be operable from the outside of the
aircraft. This is a huge safety issue - I don't want to be trapped in an
a/c after an accident.
* It should not operate if the doors are not aligned correctly for
proper latching (this would prevent misaligned doors from being
appearing to be closed when not)
* It should not make door operation more difficult (i.e. stiffer /
harder to latch / more steps)
* It should be easily installed
* It should be mechanically simple
A very nice to have requirement is that it should operate is that it
should automagically operate when the door is closed.
Attached is a side view sketch of a design that came about after I saw
how Steve Deniri integrated his billet handles into the -10 door.
Basically it involves a 1/8" "knife blade" piece of AL (steel?) that
drop into a notch in the door sill as the door is latched. There is a
guide block embedded in the door that would cause the blade to swing
down the door is latched or swing up as it is unlatched. For those who
haven't seen Steve's system, he uses a saddle which is pop rivettted to
the door tubes to cause a lever to be moved when the door tubes moved.
My thought is that the if the receiving slot in the door sill is just a
little oversized as compared to the knife blade, the should be little or
no more extra effort required to latch / unlatch the door.
I would also ensure that the blade could not be forced down into the
receiving slot if the door was open too far for the door pins to engage
the door locks. This just a matter of alignment and positioning.
The receiving block would be attached to the inside of the door using
threaded screws. I would think that if the receiving block was made of
sandwiched 1/4" thick AL, fabrication wouldn't be too difficult.
After noodling the sketch for a while, I think it would be best if this
was installed in the aft 1/3 of the door, mirror image of what is shown.
That way if the door was being pushed back, the knife blade would not be
pulled out of the door sill notch.
Anyway, I am just a dumb ^*%^ accountant and not an engineer. I would
appreciate any comments before I try to fab a prototype of the RV10 Mark
1 Door Interlock.
Cheers
Les
#40643 - Happily distracted from f/g hell
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Mounting engine |
I don't know what they rent for, but these days they go for about $130
at Pep Boys, etc.
On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 4:46 PM, John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo@msn.com> wrote:
> Easy question:
> Is it posible without too much effort to mount the engine without using the
> taperred cylindrical bolt substitutes?
> Getting ready to rent an engine hoist and can see not being able o get the
> engine mounted unless I have these in my bag of tricks.
> Thanks
> John G.
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Copperstate RV10 nest |
Since Don is too busy I'll go in his place.. Well I was actually going
anyway. We should be arriving at around 5pm on Friday the 23rd, try to
figure out where to camp and be around until 13:30ish on Saturday. If anyone
will be at the campground let me know so I can hook up with you on Friday.
Look forward to meeting everyone there.
Pascal
--------------------------------------------------
From: "woxofswa" <woxof@aol.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 2:18 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Copperstate RV10 nest
>
> Don,
>
> No worries. I am borrowing from my employer, SWA and its umpteenth and
> last chili cookoffs that it has every year. (this year was thirty
> something).
>
> For Copperstate, next year will be the third and last.
>
> My only struggle will be that blessed year and beyond when I have to get
> both "RV's" there.
>
> Regardless of my participation, I hope it becomes an annual tradition that
> lasts as long as the show itself does.
>
> --------
> Myron Nelson
> Mesa, AZ
> Emp completed, legacy build fuse in progress
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266321#266321
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: RV10 Mark 1 Door Interlock |
I have always thought a round geared crank style door lock that would
allow for extending pins an unlimited length into the door frame and
fuselage completely eliminating the concerns related to the door pins
barely engaging. Not that dissimilar to a bank vault which has locking
pins extending in all directions. My concept would require a cranking
motion to both engage and disengage the door pins. I have a multi geared
version of this concept in my mind but it seems like most things in
aviation are best left as simple as possible.
In this concept the rotating knob can be located in a number of
different locations on the door. The handle can be as simple as an old
VW window crank or as premium as a milled stainless steel disk with
spring loaded self retracting crank handle. I do not know if this is an
appropriate mechanism for door latching or if it has some negative
implications in the event of an emergency extraction.
For those that are still concerned about three pins holding the door in
place I have a deluxe model in mind. J
Robin
Message 35
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I had the same positive experience, only used the final bolts on two
airplanes. A little jiggling and head scratching to get things lined up
right but certainly doable.
Marcus
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lew Gallagher
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Mounting engine
Hey John,
Our engine aligned very easily just using the final bolts. I use an engine
leveler between the hoist and the engine to get the angle just right. I did
find that typically three of the four went in with no problem, the the
fourth took some jiggling. Eventually we found which three made the fourth
easier. With the engine leveler set, and the pattern followed, we can put
it on and take it off with ease.
Later, - Lew
----- Original Message -----
From: John Gonzalez <mailto:indigoonlatigo@msn.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 7:46 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Mounting engine
Easy question:
Is it posible without too much effort to mount the engine without using the
taperred cylindrical bolt substitutes?
Getting ready to rent an engine hoist and can see not being able o get the
engine mounted unless I have these in my bag of tricks.
Thanks
John G.
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