---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/17/09: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:05 AM - Re: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned (David McNeill) 2. 05:45 AM - Re: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned (Jesse Saint) 3. 06:16 AM - Re: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned (tgesele@optonline.net) 4. 06:28 AM - Re: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned (Michael Kraus) 5. 12:55 PM - fortunate AZ (David McNeill) 6. 03:14 PM - Re: fortunate AZ (Bob Turner) 7. 06:28 PM - Re: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned (Roxanne and Mike Lefever) 8. 07:19 PM - Re: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned (David McNeill) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:12 AM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned We have used the following technique successfully on two aircraft , Glastar and RV10. We use bent aluminum fingers; a 1/2" wide by 3 " by .040 strip has a cleco hole on one end and a masking tape wrap on the other. cleco holes for these "fingers" are drilled at 4-6" intervals around the glass. these are numbered and are placed when the window is glued. After curing, the fingers are removed and the edge of the window sanded smooth. Then two one inch strips of E-glass , cut on a 45 bias, are glued around the windows to secure the window in the frame and fill the mounting holes. More work but the neither the window or the frame crack. We learned this technique at Phoenix Composites who have been doing this for years with all manner of composite aircraft. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 10:24 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned I can only imagine the feeling of having to redo a windscreen due to cracks, )^%&*^2208&^*66&769q!!!! Thought i would post a few pict on how I glued in my windscreen. I had heard about all the craze line issues and I even went as far as to purchase five tubes of Sikaflex for the side windows. I never used the sikaflex so if anyone want to purchase the five tubes for a quarter of what it cost me, let me know. The key to clamping the windscreen IMO in is distribution of pressure. I used several laminations of 1/16" ply, aircraft modeling plywood to distribute the force. The pictures should tell the story. Also, I used wooden wedges to push down on the plexi where needed. Note the 3/4" ply used across the top of the canopy, clamped to the canopy, but it is the wedges which are pushing down on the plexi. This entire process is a two person process and it needs to be rehearsed. One person should spread the Weld On on the canopy rim while the other is doing the windscreen edge. Pressure to the windscreen should be applied at the top and then incrementally going out to the sides, each side at the same time. Tape should be placed on the inside of the windcreen and outside with the inside tape removed once the window is clamped. Get all the hairs of WeldOn off the plexi immediately. _____ From: aarongleixner@sbcglobal.net Subject: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned I just got off the phone with Van's after paying $470 for a new front window. I had approximately 50 small cracks starting at the glue joint, and extending about 1/8 inch beyond the glue joint. After reading all the warnings about not clamping when glueing the windows, I added a clamp in one location to hold the plexi tight, and all the cracks started under the clamp. While clamping pressure may not be the only variable for crack formation, it is definitely a strong contributing factor. So for those about to complete this step, avoid the clamps, and use plenty of glue to bridge any small gaps that might result. Now for the question. Has anyone else had to remove a front window? At this point, I only need to remove the glue joint. How was it accomplished? Van's said someone routed out a window, but I was wondering if lots of heat from a heat gun, and a little prying might separate the glue from the fiberglass. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Aaron ectric.com ">www.buildersbooks.com builthelp.com tronics.com/contribution /www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List .com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:24 AM PST US From: Jesse Saint Subject: Re: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned I had to replace a windshield that was broken when a Columbia crashed into it. It was already actually broken, so it couldn't be removed in one piece anyway. I used a rubber mallet fairly gently to break the pieces loose from the glue (not weld-on) and then used a die grinder to remove the glue. For a whole window, I don't know what I would recommend, but probably a router or heat like others have mentioned would work well. When installing, we put a piece of cardboard over the window and tie a rope from one spar center section over to the other to hold the lower part of the windshield in place and then drill some #40 holes and use little pieces of flat aluminum and clecos around the rest of the window. We've never had a crack. Attached is a picture with some of the clecos in place, but not the rope. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com Cell: 352-427-0285 Fax: 815-377-3694 On Nov 16, 2009, at 9:23 PM, ricksked@embarqmail.com wrote: > Aaron, > > Depends on how you glued it in. I used epoxy and flox and I'm sure > heat and patience would work well Not sure about weld on. The > fairing should be able to be removed with heat and some patience as > well. IIRC, Jesse Saint may chime in, I think they swapped out a > forward transparency...Dave Saylor will know for sure...he is the > composite guru who's polished wings warped out his rear window....if > it weren't such a pain to match paint I could swap out a front > transparency in a week ready for paint....without using power tools > except to clean up the cabin lip. And yes I've torn out a bunch of > glass parts in my time. > > Rick Sked > N246RS > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > From: Aaron Gleixner > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:34:47 -0800 (PST) > To: > Subject: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons > learned ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:19 AM PST US From: tgesele@optonline.net Subject: Re: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned Aaron, I had the exact problem and replaced my windscreen. The procedure I used (which worked very well) was to cut the windscreen just in front of the flange using the cutoff wheel. From there, I used a heat gun to melt the weld-on and the remaining plexi peeled off easily. A lite sanding and I was good to go. If you go with this method, just be careful with the heat gun, you just want to heat it enough to lossen the plexi, not deform the fiberglass. Took about 2 hrs total if I remember correctly. Good luck. Tom Gesele N629RV ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Gleixner Subject: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned > I just got off the phone with Van's after paying $470 for a new > front window. I had approximately 50 small cracks starting at > the glue joint, and extending about 1/8 inch beyond the glue > joint. After reading all the warnings about not clamping when > glueing the windows, I added a clamp in one location to hold the > plexi tight, and all the cracks started under the clamp. While > clamping pressure may not be the only variable for crack > formation, it is definitely a strong contributing factor. So > for those about to complete this step, avoid the clamps, and use > plenty of glue to bridge any small gaps that might result. > > Now for the question. Has anyone else had to remove a front > window? At this point, I only need to remove the glue joint. > How was it accomplished? Van's said someone routed out a > window, but I was wondering if lots of heat from a heat gun, and > a little prying might separate the glue from the fiberglass. > Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > > Aaron ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:19 AM PST US From: Michael Kraus Subject: Re: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned I routed out the 2 sides and the top as discussed, then used an angled die grinder with sanding disks to grind away the lower fiberglass fairing flush with the windscreen. The windscreen then popped out and left a nice lip all around for the new one. For the sikaflex, I used the primer on both surfaces then applied it with a caulk gun. I held the window in place with cleco's and aluminum tabs as others have discussed, but I used small weights to hold the bottom of the windscreen until dry. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 16, 2009, at 10:44 PM, "Les Kearney" wrote: > Mike > > How did you use Sikaflex on the front window? Pix would be great. > When you routed the old window out, did that effectively leave a > bottom notch for the window? > > Inquiring minds need to know. > > Les > #40643 > > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus > Sent: November-16-09 8:02 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons > learned > > I routed one out that was installed with weld on, same issue as you > were explaining. Therefore I am not using weld on on my plane!! I > set the depth to match the window thickness, it made a big mess but > left a very nice and flat surface for the reinstall. BTW, we > switched to Sikaflex and have been very happy with it. YMMV. > -Mike Kraus > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 16, 2009, at 8:34 PM, Aaron Gleixner > wrote: > >> I just got off the phone with Van's after paying $470 for a new >> front window. I had approximately 50 small cracks starting at the >> glue joint, and extending about 1/8 inch beyond the glue joint. >> After reading all the warnings about not clamping when glueing the >> windows, I added a clamp in one location to hold the plexi tight, >> and all the cracks started under the clamp. While clamping >> pressure may not be the only variable for crack formation, it is >> definitely a strong contributing factor. So for those about to >> complete this step, avoid the clamps, and use plenty of glue to >> bridge any small gaps that might result. >> >> Now for the question. Has anyone else had to remove a front >> window? At this point, I only need to remove the glue joint. How >> was it accomplished? Van's said someone routed out a window, but I >> was wondering if lots of heat from a heat gun, and a little prying >> might separate the glue from the fiberglass. Any suggestions would >> be greatly appreciated. >> >> Aaron >> >> >> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com >> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com >> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> > > > www.aeroelectric.com > www.homebuilthelp.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:39 PM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RV10-List: fortunate AZ It is reported on the government website that 30 jobs were saved or created for $760k in the 15th AZ district. WE are especially blessed since until he government announcement we only had 8 congressional districts. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/jobs-saved-created-congressional-districts-ex ist/story?id=9097853 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:14:32 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: fortunate AZ From: "Bob Turner" yes, this was on the news the other night. Apparently the web site person simply copied the districts from the fund applications, and apparently quite a few people didn't know their district so they just made something up. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273347#273347 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:29 PM PST US From: Roxanne and Mike Lefever Subject: RE: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned David: did you do something similar like the fingers when doing the back w indows? I am hoping to try those again on the next warm weekend day after h aving cracked one by clamping it. From: dlm46007@cox.net Subject: RE: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned We have used the following technique successfully on two aircraft =2C Glast ar and RV10. We use bent aluminum fingers=3B a 1/2" wide by 3 " by .040 str ip has a cleco hole on one end and a masking tape wrap on the other. cleco holes for these "fingers" are drilled at 4-6" intervals around the glass. t hese are numbered and are placed when the window is glued. After curing=2C the fingers are removed and the edge of the window sanded smooth. Then two one inch strips of E-glass =2C cut on a 45 bias=2C are glued around the win dows to secure the window in the frame and fill the mounting holes. More wo rk but the neither the window or the frame crack. We learned this technique at Phoenix Composites who have been doing this for years with all manner o f composite aircraft. From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez Sent: Monday=2C November 16=2C 2009 10:24 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned I can only imagine the feeling of having to redo a windscreen due to cracks =2C )^%&*^2208&^*66&769q!!!! Thought i would post a few pict on how I glued in my windscreen. I had hear d about all the craze line issues and I even went as far as to purchase fiv e tubes of Sikaflex for the side windows. I never used the sikaflex so if a nyone want to purchase the five tubes for a quarter of what it cost me=2C l et me know. The key to clamping the windscreen IMO in is distribution of pressure. I us ed several laminations of 1/16" ply=2C aircraft modeling plywood to distrib ute the force. The pictures should tell the story. Also=2C I used wooden we dges to push down on the plexi where needed. Note the 3/4" ply used across the top of the canopy=2C clamped to the canopy=2C but it is the wedges whic h are pushing down on the plexi. This entire process is a two person proces s and it needs to be rehearsed. One person should spread the Weld On on the canopy rim while the other is doing the windscreen edge. Pressure to the w indscreen should be applied at the top and then incrementally going out to the sides=2C each side at the same time. Tape should be placed on the insid e of the windcreen and outside with the inside tape removed once the window is clamped. Get all the hairs of WeldOn off the plexi immediately. From: aarongleixner@sbcglobal.net Subject: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned I just got off the phone with Van's after paying $470 for a new front windo w. I had approximately 50 small cracks starting at the glue joint=2C and e xtending about 1/8 inch beyond the glue joint. After reading all the warni ngs about not clamping when glueing the windows=2C I added a clamp in one l ocation to hold the plexi tight=2C and all the cracks started under the cla mp. While clamping pressure may not be the only variable for crack formati on=2C it is definitely a strong contributing factor. So for those about to complete this step=2C avoid the clamps=2C and use plenty of glue to bridge any small gaps that might result. Now for the question. Has anyone else had to remove a front window? At th is point=2C I only need to remove the glue joint. How was it accomplished? Van's said someone routed out a window=2C but I was wondering if lots of heat from a heat gun=2C and a little prying might separate the glue from th e fiberglass. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Aaron ectric.com ">www.buildersbooks.com builthelp.com tronics.com/contribution /www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List .com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:52 PM PST US From: "David McNeill" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned we used the "fingers" on all windows. .An even gentle pressure is exerted all round. Check with Mike Andresan on Friday. I showed him the technique on his left rear window and he has used it on others. Or you can call me on 480-626-4048. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roxanne and Mike Lefever Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 7:27 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned David: did you do something similar like the fingers when doing the back windows? I am hoping to try those again on the next warm weekend day after having cracked one by clamping it. _____ From: dlm46007@cox.net Subject: RE: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned We have used the following technique successfully on two aircraft , Glastar and RV10. We use bent aluminum fingers; a 1/2" wide by 3 " by .040 strip has a cleco hole on one end and a masking tape wrap on the other. cleco holes for these "fingers" are drilled at 4-6" intervals around the glass. these are numbered and are placed when the window is glued. After curing, the fingers are removed and the edge of the window sanded smooth. Then two one inch strips of E-glass , cut on a 45 bias, are glued around the windows to secure the window in the frame and fill the mounting holes. More work but the neither the window or the frame crack. We learned this technique at Phoenix Composites who have been doing this for years with all manner of composite aircraft. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 10:24 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned I can only imagine the feeling of having to redo a windscreen due to cracks, )^%&*^2208&^*66&769q!!!! Thought i would post a few pict on how I glued in my windscreen. I had heard about all the craze line issues and I even went as far as to purchase five tubes of Sikaflex for the side windows. I never used the sikaflex so if anyone want to purchase the five tubes for a quarter of what it cost me, let me know. The key to clamping the windscreen IMO in is distribution of pressure. I used several laminations of 1/16" ply, aircraft modeling plywood to distribute the force. The pictures should tell the story. Also, I used wooden wedges to push down on the plexi where needed. Note the 3/4" ply used across the top of the canopy, clamped to the canopy, but it is the wedges which are pushing down on the plexi. This entire process is a two person process and it needs to be rehearsed. One person should spread the Weld On on the canopy rim while the other is doing the windscreen edge. Pressure to the windscreen should be applied at the top and then incrementally going out to the sides, each side at the same time. Tape should be placed on the inside of the windcreen and outside with the inside tape removed once the window is clamped. Get all the hairs of WeldOn off the plexi immediately. _____ From: aarongleixner@sbcglobal.net Subject: RV10-List: Tips on removal of front window and lessons learned I just got off the phone with Van's after paying $470 for a new front window. I had approximately 50 small cracks starting at the glue joint, and extending about 1/8 inch beyond the glue joint. After reading all the warnings about not clamping when glueing the windows, I added a clamp in one location to hold the plexi tight, and all the cracks started under the clamp. While clamping pressure may not be the only variable for crack formation, it is definitely a strong contributing factor. So for those about to complete this step, avoid the clamps, and use plenty of glue to bridge any small gaps that might result. Now for the question. Has anyone else had to remove a front window? At this point, I only need to remove the glue joint. How was it accomplished? Van's said someone routed out a window, but I was wondering if lots of heat from a heat gun, and a little prying might separate the glue from the fiberglass. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Aaron ectric.com ">www.buildersbooks.com builthelp.com tronics.com/contribution /www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List .com lectric.com /">www.buildersbooks.com ebuilthelp.com ww.matronics.com/contribution ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List ronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.