---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 04/18/10: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:46 AM - Fuel Lines (Les Kearney) 2. 06:15 AM - Workbenches (Les Kearney) 3. 06:59 AM - Re: Vettermans plans (Eric_Kallio) 4. 07:37 AM - Re: Fuel Lines (Michael Kraus) 5. 07:45 AM - FWF included items (John Gonzalez) 6. 07:49 AM - Re: Fuel Lines (Kelly McMullen) 7. 07:51 AM - rivets at bottom, center of fuse/firewall interface (John Gonzalez) 8. 08:03 AM - Re: FWF included items (Kelly McMullen) 9. 08:25 AM - Re: Fuel Lines (Bob and Karen Brown) 10. 08:35 AM - Re: Fuel Lines (Les Kearney) 11. 08:38 AM - Re: FWF included items (Bob Leffler) 12. 09:44 AM - Re: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) (Chris Colohan) 13. 10:06 AM - Re: FWF included items (Jim Berry) 14. 10:16 AM - Re: rivets at bottom, center of fuse/firewall interface (Jim Berry) 15. 11:22 AM - Re: It was warm yesterday, but that's ridiculous! (woxofswa) 16. 12:43 PM - Re: Fuel Lines (Perry, Phil) 17. 02:13 PM - Re: Tools (Kelly McMullen) 18. 05:35 PM - Re: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) (Jeff Carpenter) 19. 05:44 PM - Re: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) (Ron Walker) 20. 06:38 PM - Re: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) (Tony Woods) 21. 06:38 PM - Re: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) (Tony Woods) 22. 11:34 PM - Re: rivets at bottom, center of fuse/firewall interface (AirMike) 23. 11:42 PM - Re: Fuel Lines (AirMike) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:21 AM PST US From: "Les Kearney" Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Lines Hi I am planning on installing Bonoco Inc steel braided fel lines in lieu of the soft aluminium lines spec'd by Vans. I am wondering if anyone else has done this and if so how the the fuselage passthrough to the wing was handled. It would seem that one otion is to use a bulkhead fitting at the fuselage which would make the connection to the wing vey simnple. Alternatively a single run of fuel line fom the fuel valve to the wing is also an option. Thoughts . comments anyone? Cheers Les #40643 - Systems / Wiring / Finishing ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:17 AM PST US From: "Les Kearney" Subject: RV10-List: Workbenches Tony This link : ( http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/worktabl/worktabl.htm ) will take you the plans for the "official" EAA workbenches (if there is such a thing. I put mine on heavy duty wheels (lockable) so I could move it around easily. They are very strong, dirt cheap to make and entirely functional. I put MDF on the top of mine as it is soft and there are no splinters to worry about. I made two and, on occasion, clamped them together to make a single large surface. If you alter the dimensions of the plans, you can make smaller (or full size if space permits) work benches to hold some of your power tools such as band saw, drill press and grinder. I found a table top belt sander / disk sander to be invaluable. I learned from experience that when making long straight cuts on the band saw, it was better to cut proud of the cut line and then use the sander to take the material down to the cut line. This dimpler: http://www.averytools.com/pc-619-84-drdt-2-hand-dimpling-tool.aspx is absolute gold. It is much faster and easier to dimple using this tool. I can't imagine building without it. When mounting my gear, I placed the whole fuselage (without the tail) on a table. I used an engine crane to lift it. It was the perfect height to allow the gear legs to be installed safely. When you get you kit(s), keep the Styrofoam sheets, or a least some of it, to put under large components during assembly. I also made, using 2X4's and MDF, a large dolly for the fuse once I moved into the "boat" phase. It was 4' wide and about 6' long. It also was on castoring wheels. I am a big fan of MDF as it is perfectly flat, cheap and doesn't splinter. Cheers Les #40643 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rwendell@hydro-splash.com Sent: April-17-10 5:17 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Firewall access I went with 4x8 ------Original Message------ From: Tony Woods Sender: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Firewall access Sent: Apr 17, 2010 3:00 AM Hey all. This sounds like a stupid question, but I'm about to start work on my empennage in a few weeks and am getting my workshop sorted out. I've got a good set of tools coming from PlaneTools, but am wondering about setting up a work bench. How big? I'm going to build the bench from scratch, so wondering how wide and long would be good, since I can make it any dimension then I might as well make it right... Tony Woods Not started anything yet!! Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:08 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Vettermans plans From: "Eric_Kallio" I was able to figure it out with a little head scratching and some pics from a build log. I wish I could remember whose so I could give credit, but I forgot. Eric Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294646#294646 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:26 AM PST US From: Michael Kraus Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Lines I would recommend using the soft aluminum lines. A lot cheaper and last longer. In fact, you could buy the flaring tools, all fittings, and the aluminum lines cheaper than the flexible lines... One suggestion would be to split the line from the fuel valve to the tanks into 2 lines and use a 90 degree bulkhead fitting as they pass thru the tunnel walls. Then you basically have 2 straight runs vs. 1 complex run. Just my opinion.... I can send Picts if you'd like to see how I did it. -Mike Sent from my iPhone On Apr 18, 2010, at 8:45 AM, "Les Kearney" wrote: > > Hi > > I am planning on installing Bonoco Inc steel braided fel lines in > lieu of the soft aluminium lines spec'd by Vans. I am wondering if > anyone else has done this and if so how the the fuselage passthrough > to the wing was handled. It would seem that one otion is to use a > bulkhead fitting at the fuselage which would make the connection to > the wing vey simnple. Alternatively a single run of fuel line fom > the fuel valve to the wing is also an option. > > Thoughts . comments anyone? > > Cheers > > Les > #40643 - Systems / Wiring / Finishing > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:46 AM PST US From: John Gonzalez Subject: RV10-List: FWF included items When I am looking at Van's website for what is included on the FWF kit=2C i t is different than what I received from them. I seem to be missing a gascolator and a starter solenoid(contactor). Reviewing the paper work that comes with the FWF kit=2C I do not see that e ither of these items are included. I would think that since the FWF kit for the 10 is the most expensive of al l the planes=2C and if these items are included for the other planes=2C as is stated on the web site=2C why not for the 10??? JOhn #409Engine and gear about ready to come off so the plane can be extrac ted from by basement. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:51 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Lines From: Kelly McMullen I think you are getting into esoterics of fuel line life. Standard aircraft fuel lines when in wings/fuselage and not exposed to engine temps or outside air last a very long time. I replaced one that likely was OEM 40 yrs old last year. Yes, it was hard, no it was not anywhere close to risk of failing, it just connected two aluminum lines together and was a "while you are there might as well" deals. Personally, I'd expect any fuel line inside the fuselage, protected, to last longer than you will own/fly the aircraft. One can go to the braided stainless lines and have very long life, or make them lifetime by getting teflon core hoses. It becomes what your time is worth type of exercise more than what is cheapest or more durable. If your time is worth $10 an hour, you can make and remake a lot of soft lines. If your time is worth $50 an hour, it becomes more of an even trade off. On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 6:35 AM, Michael Kraus wrote: > I would recommend using the soft aluminum lines. A lot cheaper and last > longer. In fact, you could buy the flaring tools, all fittings, and the > aluminum lines cheaper than the flexible lines... > One suggestion would be to split the line from the fuel valve to the tanks > into 2 lines and use a 90 degree bulkhead fitting as they pass thru the > tunnel walls. Then you basically have 2 straight runs vs. 1 complex run. > Just my opinion.... I can send Picts if you'd like to see how I did it. > -Mike > > > Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 18, 2010, at 8:45 AM, "Les Kearney" wrote: > > > Hi > > I am planning on installing Bonoco Inc steel braided fel lines in lieu of > the soft aluminium lines spec'd by Vans. I am wondering if anyone else has > done this and if so how the the fuselage passthrough to the wing was > handled. It would seem that one otion is to use a bulkhead fitting at the > fuselage which would make the connection to the wing vey simnple. > Alternatively a single run of fuel line fom the fuel valve to the wing is > also an option. > > Thoughts . comments anyone? > > Cheers > > Les > #40643 - Systems / Wiring / Finishing > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:48 AM PST US From: John Gonzalez Subject: RV10-List: rivets at bottom, center of fuse/firewall interface As I recal=2C the plans called for not riveting the center 8-10 rivets at t he above described location. The center hole is reserved for the bracket wh ich helps support the cowling=2C but why did they leave the other holes not rivetted? The nose gear=2C main gear and engine are coming off so I can remove the fu se from my basement=2C and these rivets can only be placed with the nose ge ar off=2C so is now the time to set these rivets? Thanks=2C John ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:51 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: FWF included items From: Kelly McMullen Both the starter relay and the master relay are in the electrical kit. Don't know about gascolator, as I am not that far along. You can get starter relay cheaper at Spruce, master a few bucks more than Van's price. Really a question of which is easier for you to get order from. Should be under $50 for both, with shipping. Kelly #40866 On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 7:45 AM, John Gonzalez wrote: > When I am looking at Van's website for what is included on the FWF kit, it > is different than what I received from them. > I seem to be missing a gascolator and a starter solenoid(contactor). > Reviewing the paper work that comes with the FWF kit, I do not see that > either of these items are included. > I would think that since the FWF kit for the 10 is the most expensive of all > the planes, and if these items are included for the other planes, as is > stated on the web site, why not for the 10??? > JOhn #409 > Engine and gear about ready to come off so the plane can be extracted from > by basement. > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:05 AM PST US From: "Bob and Karen Brown" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Lines Agreed. The braided flex lines offered by Bonaco are generally Teflon lines and I would expect would outlast the airframe. Bob Brown 40871 Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 7:50 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Lines I think you are getting into esoterics of fuel line life. Standard aircraft fuel lines when in wings/fuselage and not exposed to engine temps or outside air last a very long time. I replaced one that likely was OEM 40 yrs old last year. Yes, it was hard, no it was not anywhere close to risk of failing, it just connected two aluminum lines together and was a "while you are there might as well" deals. Personally, I'd expect any fuel line inside the fuselage, protected, to last longer than you will own/fly the aircraft. One can go to the braided stainless lines and have very long life, or make them lifetime by getting teflon core hoses. It becomes what your time is worth type of exercise more than what is cheapest or more durable. If your time is worth $10 an hour, you can make and remake a lot of soft lines. If your time is worth $50 an hour, it becomes more of an even trade off. On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 6:35 AM, Michael Kraus wrote: > I would recommend using the soft aluminum lines. A lot cheaper and last > longer. In fact, you could buy the flaring tools, all fittings, and the > aluminum lines cheaper than the flexible lines... > One suggestion would be to split the line from the fuel valve to the tanks > into 2 lines and use a 90 degree bulkhead fitting as they pass thru the > tunnel walls. Then you basically have 2 straight runs vs. 1 complex run. > Just my opinion.... I can send Picts if you'd like to see how I did it. > -Mike > > > Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 18, 2010, at 8:45 AM, "Les Kearney" wrote: > > > Hi > > I am planning on installing Bonoco Inc steel braided fel lines in lieu of > the soft aluminium lines spec'd by Vans. I am wondering if anyone else has > done this and if so how the the fuselage passthrough to the wing was > handled. It would seem that one otion is to use a bulkhead fitting at the > fuselage which would make the connection to the wing vey simnple. > Alternatively a single run of fuel line fom the fuel valve to the wing is > also an option. > > Thoughts . comments anyone? > > Cheers > > Les > #40643 - Systems / Wiring / Finishing > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:05 AM PST US From: "Les Kearney" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Lines Mike Perhaps I am being a bit anal, but I don't like soft AL lines in the cockpit. While I am sure that the are serviceable, I don't don't think they will stay intact during an accident if the cockpit was in any way deformed. My thought is that a braided steel line might be a bit more forgiving. I have seen pix of a light a/c that was consumed by fire and it is a very sobering sight. Cheers Les _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus Sent: April-18-10 7:35 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Lines I would recommend using the soft aluminum lines. A lot cheaper and last longer. In fact, you could buy the flaring tools, all fittings, and the aluminum lines cheaper than the flexible lines... One suggestion would be to split the line from the fuel valve to the tanks into 2 lines and use a 90 degree bulkhead fitting as they pass thru the tunnel walls. Then you basically have 2 straight runs vs. 1 complex run. Just my opinion.... I can send Picts if you'd like to see how I did it. -Mike Sent from my iPhone On Apr 18, 2010, at 8:45 AM, "Les Kearney" wrote: Hi I am planning on installing Bonoco Inc steel braided fel lines in lieu of the soft aluminium lines spec'd by Vans. I am wondering if anyone else has done this and if so how the the fuselage passthrough to the wing was handled. It would seem that one otion is to use a bulkhead fitting at the fuselage which would make the connection to the wing vey simnple. Alternatively a single run of fuel line fom the fuel valve to the wing is also an option. Thoughts . comments anyone? Cheers Les #40643 - Systems / Wiring / Finishing ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:49 AM PST US From: "Bob Leffler" Subject: RE: RV10-List: FWF included items Van's just has a generic listing of what's in the FWF on their web site. Last summer I requested a detail list from Vans for the RV-10. Here's what they sent: 1.00 FF-10 IO-540 W/CT10-3 F.WALL FWD.KIT W/3LVR 3.00 CT A-740 BLACK PUSH PULL CABLE BLACK 2.00 DUCT CBT-5/8 COOLING BLAST TUBE 2.00 EA 4" DUCT HOSE CLAMP 4" HOSE CLAMP 1.00 EA CV HOSE 7545 BREATHER HOSE -540 6.00 EA GASKET 77611 BLO-PROOF EXHST GASKT 4.00 EA DYNA VI I(O)-540 VIB.ISO. RV-10 ONLY 1.00 EA OIL COOLER 20006A OIL COOLER I(O)-540 1.00 ES ALTERNATOR DELUXE 60A KIT W/OV PROTECT 1.00 FAB-360/540 FLTRD A/BOX-360 FI320 1.00 FF-1005 BREATHER TUBE 1.00 IE VMP INSTALL KIT FITTINGS/HOSES 1.00 PROP GOV MT P-860-3 I(O)-540 LYCOMING 1.00 VA-102 FUEL PRES. HOSE 15.5 1.00 VA-133 OIL PRESS. HOSE 27.25 1.00 VA-135 OIL COOLER HOSE 16.5 1.00 VA-168 SENDER MOUNT 1.00 VA-186 OIL COOLER BOX ASSY. 1.00 VA-187 4" FLANGED DUCT 1.00 VA-190 OIL COOLER HOSE 27" 1.00 BAF-10-540 BAFFLE KIT IO-540 1.00 PT-035X1/4X4' LO PRES-BRKE RES.TUBE 1.00 SS304-26GAX1/2X9 SCAT CLAMP !!SHARP!! 1.00 VENT SCAT 2X3' RED 2" SCAT 3' LONG 1.00 VENT SCAT 2X6' SCAT TUBE X 6 FT 1.00 VENT SCAT 4X16" 4" DIA. RED SCAT HOSE 1.00 EA DYNA BOLT I(O)-540 MOTOR MOUNT BOLT KIT 1.00 BAG 516 RIVET AN426AD3-3.5 1.00 BAG 517 RIVET AN426AD3-4 1.00 BAG 518 RIVET AN426AD4-4 1.00 BAG 519 RIVET AN426AD4-5 1.00 BAG 520 MISC. AN BOLTS 1.00 BAG 521 MISC. WASHERS 1.00 BAG 522-1 MISC. FITTINGS/CLAMPS 1.00 BAG 523-1 FITTINGS/MISC. 1.00 BAG 524 MISC. CLAMPS 1.00 BAG 525-1 MISC/BEARINGS 1.00 BAG 526-1 CABIN HEAT SHUTTLE HW 1.00 PT-062X1/4X24" HIGH PRESSURE 1.00 VA-182-PC KIT THR/MIX BKT IO VERT 1.00 VA-189 FUEL LINE IO-540 25.5 1.00 CT 10-3 QUADRANT KIT 3 LEVER KIT RV-10 540 1.00 DOC FF-IO-540 TEXT/DWGS RV-10 F.FWD 1.00 EA EXH 10 I(O)-540 I(O)-540 VETTERMAN 1.00 VA-138 FUEL SUPPLY HOSE 14.0 Bob From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 10:45 AM Subject: RV10-List: FWF included items When I am looking at Van's website for what is included on the FWF kit, it is different than what I received from them. I seem to be missing a gascolator and a starter solenoid(contactor). Reviewing the paper work that comes with the FWF kit, I do not see that either of these items are included. I would think that since the FWF kit for the 10 is the most expensive of all the planes, and if these items are included for the other planes, as is stated on the web site, why not for the 10??? JOhn #409 Engine and gear about ready to come off so the plane can be extracted from by basement. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:22 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) From: Chris Colohan When building that bench, make sure you use 2x4's that are _absolutely_ straight, and even better if they have also seasoned a few years (aka, perfectly dry). I bought the "premium" 2x4's at my local Home Depot, and found that after I assembled my bench (with a 3/4" plywood top) there was a 1/8" to 3/16" warp in the work surface. Not good. So I got some MDF, set it up perfectly flat on top of the bench (using washers as shims), and screwed it down. I'm still working on my tail section, but here are some random things I've learned so far which I'll type up while they are still fresh in my mind: - you can save gobs of money by buying tools used (vansairforce, local EAA chapters, ebay). The problem is that when you are first starting you don't know which cheap tools are a good deal, and which ones are cheap for a reason. You also don't know which tools are "needed", and which ones are more of a gimmick. (For example: what the heck is a "dimpling mallet"? Why is it any better than a $3 rubber mallet from the local hardware store?) On the other hand, some of my used tool buys are in the category of "I'd have never thought to buy this one new" and yet is "OMG completely invaluable" for certain operations. - the two most expensive tools which folks rave about are the pneumatic riveter, and the DTRT. Starting off, I'd save your money. [most controversial sentence in this post...] I have borrowed a friend's pnumatic, and it is amazingly fast. This will help you make mistakes faster. Also, it is quite heavy and bulky, which means you really have to plan out how you hold it and position it when getting into tight corners to avoid mis-squeezing a rivet. When you are first starting, slow and careful is the way to go, since mistakes take so long to fix. I have a normal c-frame, and I am frankly somewhat baffled about the supposed speed advantage of a DTRT. Dimpling with a c-frame and mallet is a fast and pretty simple operation. I've hardly spent any time on it compared to all the other work. Not what I'd optimize, IMHO. - As a beginner, I've found that: (a) squeezing a rivet produces a better result than backriveting which produces a better result than bucking it. (b) it is hard to mess up a squeezed rivet or a backrivet. It is trivial to mess up a bucked rivet. (c) squeezing a 3/32" rivet is easy. squeezing a 1/8" rivet is a feat of strength I am not strong enough to do. Well -- this is true with both the Avery squeezer I borrowed from a friend, and the old-school hand squeezer I bought used. I recently bought a Cleavland Main Squeeze, and this thing is a work of art -- it makes squeezing perfect 1/8" rivets absolutely trivial. I love this tool. (Sadly, it is expensive.) The pneumatic also makes it possible for me to squeeze a 1/8" rivet, but it is really finicky about positioning the ram to get it squeezed right, heavier, and harder to position in awkward places. I find that I end up with a better result using the main squeeze. (I could see how with practice I'd get better with the pneumatic and it would be faster -- but I have time to do things right...) - It is easier to mess up a bucked rivet with too much air pressure than with too little. Always start with too little and dial it up, not the reverse. - For your scotchbrite wheel you can mount it on a grinder or a buffer. I bought a cheap grinder, which works. My friends bought a cheap buffer, which has a longer shaft. I envy them, since they can get their wheel into more tight places. - Deburring the inside of lightening holes is a real pain. Until you get a $30 die grinder from Home Depot and a 1" scotchbrite wheel -- then it becomes easy (and incredibly noisy). - Buy a cheap belt/disc sander. I got a combo 1" belt/5" disc sander from Harbor Freight. It is _way_ better to cut outside a line and sand down than to try and cut a line. - Don't try to debur the edge of a skin just using a die grinder and scotchbrite wheel. You will waste too much time, and burn through grinder wheels like crazy. Easier is to: (a) use a regular file (not a vixen file!) to get rid of the cut marks and make the edge flat. (b) then quickly run the die grinder down the edge. - For smoothing/deburring the cut edge of thicker pieces: start off with a file (not a vixen file!). You will want some jeweler's files for getting inside corners. This will get rid of the cut marks. Then use sandpaper (I find that sanding sponges work well here). Then a quick buffing on the scotchbrite wheel will polish it nice and smooth. You will get much worse results if you go straight to the scotchbrite wheel (as I did the first time I tried this). - I haven't yet found a use for a vixen file. This tool appears to be made for taking off aluminum quickly from rough-cut pieces. Most of the RV-10 that I've encountered so far is pre-cut pieces. My belt/disc sander works better for me for getting edges down to a line. - If you leave the blue plastic on pieces it helps stop you from scratching the nice shiny alclad, and makes it prettier. I hear that if you leave this stuff on too long it becomes a real pain to take off -- but I have not yet had that problem, after 2 months. (Fingers crossed.) - I got a pair of chucking reamers for match drilling the pre-drilled holes (#30 and #40). As a result, I tend not to get burrs on holes. Well, I still go through the motions of deburring, but for the life of me I can't tell the difference in pre- and post-deburring of these holes. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong, or perhaps using this tool means I don't have to deburr. - You can never have enough light in your workshop. If in doubt, put up some more fluorescent strips. - Join a local EAA chapter and visit a few builders, to see what they are doing and get their advice. - Take a SportAir workshop if you can. Working on aluminum which is Not Your Plane lets you make your mistakes on stuff which doesn't matter. - The vertical stabilizer nose-ribs are too long, and you will want to sand 1/8" off their tips to avoid denting the skin. Do this _before_ you assemble it for the first time. (oops) Read Tim Olsen's site, which contains this critical tip and others. - When you go to put your vertical stabilizer skin on for the first test fit, get a friend to help you wrestle it. This is a challenging thing to do by yourself. - When putting that vertical stabilizer skin on, pull out the fiberglass tip fairings which are supposed to match it. You may have to coax the bend of the front of the skin to match the bend at the nose of the fairing -- and easier to do this while the skin is still not attached. (Yup, I never thought of this one...) - If the plans tell you not to dimple/match drill a hole, put tape over it to remind you. You will forget. Even if you circle it in bright red marker to remind yourself. - _Always_ clamp down a part before riveting it, either with the squeezer or the rivet gun. This will save you much grief. - Speaking of which, the Irwin bar clamps (or similar) are absolutely incredibly useful for clamping down random things to your bench while you work on them. A few cleco clamps are also really useful to have. - When inventorying your kit, check the formed parts for cracks. Never thought of checking for this, and a cracked piece later slowed me down while I waited for a replacement in the mail. (Double check part R-1004.) - If you buy a two-part primer, and a "calibrated paint mixing cup", double check that the calibration is accurate. My first batch of primer (and hence the entire inside of my vertical stabilizer) had twice as much reducer than it should have, since the calibrated scale was printed on the wrong part of the cup... - Speaking of which, if you want to hear a whole series of people with very strong (and divergent) opinions on a plane building topic, ask about what primer to use. Then step back, waay back. Also can be a good way of losing your new plane-building friends. You will spend way too long deciding what you want to do, and form your own opinion. By the time you spend a gazillion hours on your chosen technique, you too will either hate it, or feel strongly that your chosen method is the one true way ('cause why else would you have put all that work into it?). Chris On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 6:14 AM, Les Kearney wrote: > > Tony > > This link : ( http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/worktabl/worktabl.htm ) > will take you the plans for the "official" EAA workbenches (if there is > such > a thing. I put mine on heavy duty wheels (lockable) so I could move it > around easily. They are very strong, dirt cheap to make and entirely > functional. I put MDF on the top of mine as it is soft and there are no > splinters to worry about. I made two and, on occasion, clamped them > together > to make a single large surface. > > If you alter the dimensions of the plans, you can make smaller (or full > size > if space permits) work benches to hold some of your power tools such as > band > saw, drill press and grinder. > > I found a table top belt sander / disk sander to be invaluable. I learned > from experience that when making long straight cuts on the band saw, it was > better to cut proud of the cut line and then use the sander to take the > material down to the cut line. > > This dimpler: > http://www.averytools.com/pc-619-84-drdt-2-hand-dimpling-tool.aspx is > absolute gold. It is much faster and easier to dimple using this tool. I > can't imagine building without it. > > When mounting my gear, I placed the whole fuselage (without the tail) on a > table. I used an engine crane to lift it. It was the perfect height to > allow > the gear legs to be installed safely. > > When you get you kit(s), keep the Styrofoam sheets, or a least some of it, > to put under large components during assembly. > > I also made, using 2X4's and MDF, a large dolly for the fuse once I moved > into the "boat" phase. It was 4' wide and about 6' long. It also was on > castoring wheels. > > I am a big fan of MDF as it is perfectly flat, cheap and doesn't splinter. > > Cheers > > Les > #40643 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > rwendell@hydro-splash.com > Sent: April-17-10 5:17 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Firewall access > > > I went with 4x8 > ------Original Message------ > From: Tony Woods > Sender: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > ReplyTo: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Firewall access > Sent: Apr 17, 2010 3:00 AM > > > Hey all. > > This sounds like a stupid question, but I'm about to start work on my > empennage in a few weeks and am getting my workshop sorted out. > > I've got a good set of tools coming from PlaneTools, but am wondering about > setting up a work bench. How big? I'm going to build the bench from > scratch, so wondering how wide and long would be good, since I can make it > any dimension then I might as well make it right... > > Tony Woods > Not started anything yet!! > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:19 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: FWF included items From: "Jim Berry" There is no gascolator on the -10. Jim Berry 40482 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294689#294689 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:48 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: rivets at bottom, center of fuse/firewall interface From: "Jim Berry" John, I cannot think of any reason not to do those rivets now, if you are going to have to remove the engine and nose gear anyway. I wound up using Cherrymax rivets there because I was not willing to pull the engine for 8-10 rivets. Jim Berry 40482 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294691#294691 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:12 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: It was warm yesterday, but that's ridiculous! From: "woxofswa" -------- Myron Nelson Mesa, AZ Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse in progress Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294698#294698 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:44 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Lines From: "Perry, Phil" I've done a complete replacement of brake lines with Bonaco. That's including the tunnel lines and everything. I plan on shooting a video of my routing and sharing my hose length findings for others considering a similar replacement. But it'll be another week or two before I get a chance. I would have shaved a few inches on the tunnel lines and 1 inch on the tunnel -> Landing gear line. The Teflon hoses will probably last longer than the airplane. Their inspection will still be inspected for condition annually. The plan is to do the same thing for the fuel lines. Once I get all the fuel system components placed, I'll measure for the fuel lines and get them ordered from Bonaco. I'm going to firesleeve the tunnel fuel lines while I'm at it. I am also swapping the aluminum 45 degree fitting that penetrates the firewall with a steel version. Once I get there I'll share the hose lengths, etc... Phil From: Les Kearney [mailto:kearney@shaw.ca] Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 10:31 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Lines Mike Perhaps I am being a bit anal, but I don't like soft AL lines in the cockpit. While I am sure that the are serviceable, I don't don't think they will stay intact during an accident if the cockpit was in any way deformed. My thought is that a braided steel line might be a bit more forgiving. I have seen pix of a light a/c that was consumed by fire and it is a very sobering sight. Cheers Les ________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Kraus Sent: April-18-10 7:35 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Lines I would recommend using the soft aluminum lines. A lot cheaper and last longer. In fact, you could buy the flaring tools, all fittings, and the aluminum lines cheaper than the flexible lines... One suggestion would be to split the line from the fuel valve to the tanks into 2 lines and use a 90 degree bulkhead fitting as they pass thru the tunnel walls. Then you basically have 2 straight runs vs. 1 complex run. Just my opinion.... I can send Picts if you'd like to see how I did it. -Mike Sent from my iPhone On Apr 18, 2010, at 8:45 AM, "Les Kearney" wrote: Hi I am planning on installing Bonoco Inc steel braided fel lines in lieu of the soft aluminium lines spec'd by Vans. I am wondering if anyone else has done this and if so how the the fuselage passthrough to the wing was handled. It would seem that one otion is to use a bulkhead fitting at the fuselage which would make the connection to the wing vey simnple. Alternatively a single run of fuel line fom the fuel valve to the wing is also an option. Thoughts . comments anyone? Cheers Les #40643 - Systems / Wiring / Finishing href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic s .com/Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Tools From: Kelly McMullen On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Chris Colohan wrote: > - If you leave the blue plastic on pieces it helps stop you from scratching > the nice shiny alclad, and makes it prettier. I hear that if you leave this > stuff on too long it becomes a real pain to take off -- but I have not yet > had that problem, after 2 months. (Fingers crossed.) If you leave the vinyl on the edges, you won't get a fully smooth, deburred edge. Scotchbrite wheel gives nicer edges than 1" pad in die grinder. Each has its use, and the die grinder is necessary for some things you can't reach with Scotchbrite wheel. > - I got a pair of chucking reamers for match drilling the pre-drilled holes > (#30 and #40). As a result, I tend not to get burrs on holes. Well, I > still go through the motions of deburring, but for the life of me I can't > tell the difference in pre- and post-deburring of these holes. Perhaps I'm > doing something wrong, or perhaps using this tool means I don't have to > deburr. Get #41 reamer. You will get holes that are the right size after dimpling, rather than loose. > - You can never have enough light in your workshop. If in doubt, put up > some more fluorescent strips. > - Join a local EAA chapter and visit a few builders, to see what they are > doing and get their advice. Good advice. Kelly #40866 Tech Counselor ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:10 PM PST US From: Jeff Carpenter Subject: Re: RV10-List: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) ... while I see some sense in the comment below about the pneumatic rivet squeezer, the DRDT-2 Dimpler I found to be a huge improvement over the C-Frame and mallet approach. I used the C-Frame for the first half of the project, then borrowed a fellow builders DRDT-2 for the second half. It's much faster, less prone to mistakes and QUIETER. If I ever start another project, the first thing I will do is buy my own DRDT-2. Jeff Carpenter 40304 On Apr 18, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Chris Colohan wrote: > > > "- the two most expensive tools which folks rave about are the > pneumatic riveter, and the DTRT. Starting off, I'd save your > money. [most controversial sentence in this post...] I have > borrowed a friend's pnumatic, and it is amazingly fast. This will > help you make mistakes faster. Also, it is quite heavy and bulky, > which means you really have to plan out how you hold it and position > it when getting into tight corners to avoid mis-squeezing a rivet. > When you are first starting, slow and careful is the way to go, > since mistakes take so long to fix. I have a normal c-frame, and I > am frankly somewhat baffled about the supposed speed advantage of a > DTRT. Dimpling with a c-frame and mallet is a fast and pretty > simple operation. I've hardly spent any time on it compared to all > the other work. Not what I'd optimize, IMHO." > > > Cheers > > Les > #40643 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > rwendell@hydro-splash.com > Sent: April-17-10 5:17 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Firewall access > > > I went with 4x8 > ------Original Message------ > From: Tony Woods > Sender: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > ReplyTo: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Firewall access > Sent: Apr 17, 2010 3:00 AM > > > Hey all. > > This sounds like a stupid question, but I'm about to start work on my > empennage in a few weeks and am getting my workshop sorted out. > > I've got a good set of tools coming from PlaneTools, but am > wondering about > setting up a work bench. How big? I'm going to build the bench from > scratch, so wondering how wide and long would be good, since I can > make it > any dimension then I might as well make it right... > > Tony Woods > Not started anything yet!! > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > ========== > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:13 PM PST US From: "Ron Walker" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) Not to mention a MUCH smaller chance of whackin your hand with the mallet. (a DRDT-2 convert) Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Carpenter To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 7:34 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) ... while I see some sense in the comment below about the pneumatic rivet squeezer, the DRDT-2 Dimpler I found to be a huge improvement over the C-Frame and mallet approach. I used the C-Frame for the first half of the project, then borrowed a fellow builders DRDT-2 for the second half. It's much faster, less prone to mistakes and QUIETER. If I ever start another project, the first thing I will do is buy my own DRDT-2. Jeff Carpenter 40304 On Apr 18, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Chris Colohan wrote: "- the two most expensive tools which folks rave about are the pneumatic riveter, and the DTRT. Starting off, I'd save your money. [most controversial sentence in this post...] I have borrowed a friend's pnumatic, and it is amazingly fast. This will help you make mistakes faster. Also, it is quite heavy and bulky, which means you really have to plan out how you hold it and position it when getting into tight corners to avoid mis-squeezing a rivet. When you are first starting, slow and careful is the way to go, since mistakes take so long to fix. I have a normal c-frame, and I am frankly somewhat baffled about the supposed speed advantage of a DTRT. Dimpling with a c-frame and mallet is a fast and pretty simple operation. I've hardly spent any time on it compared to all the other work. Not what I'd optimize, IMHO." Cheers Les #40643 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rwendell@hydro-splash.com Sent: April-17-10 5:17 AM To: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Firewall access I went with 4x8 ------Original Message------ From: Tony Woods Sender: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com To: rv10-list@matronics.com ReplyTo: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Firewall access Sent: Apr 17, 2010 3:00 AM Hey all. This sounds like a stupid question, but I'm about to start work on my empennage in a few weeks and am getting my workshop sorted out. I've got a good set of tools coming from PlaneTools, but am wondering about setting up a work bench. How big? I'm going to build the bench from scratch, so wondering how wide and long would be good, since I can make it any dimension then I might as well make it right... Tony Woods Not started anything yet!! Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ========== arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:10 PM PST US From: "Tony Woods" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) Guys I am extremely grateful for your wise words and input. Chris your comments and guidance are very, very much appreciated. For a total newbie, it gives huge confidence to know that there is a whole bunch of other people out there who also started out thinking a bucking bar was somewhere they got thrown out of in Anchorage.... Tony Woods Sustainable Energy Services Afghanistan =D8=AE=D8=AF=D9=85=D8=A7=D8 =D8=A7=D9=86=D8=B1=DA=98=DB=8C =D8=A7=D9=81=D8=BA=D8=A7=D9=86=D8=B3=D8=D8=A7=D9=86 www.sesa.af twoods@sesa.af int tel +6421576555 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Walker Sent: Monday, 19 April 2010 12:44 p.m. Subject: Re: RV10-List: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) Not to mention a MUCH smaller chance of whackin your hand with the mallet. (a DRDT-2 convert) Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Carpenter Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 7:34 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) ... while I see some sense in the comment below about the pneumatic rivet squeezer, the DRDT-2 Dimpler I found to be a huge improvement over the C-Frame and mallet approach. I used the C-Frame for the first half of the project, then borrowed a fellow builders DRDT-2 for the second half. It's much faster, less prone to mistakes and QUIETER. If I ever start another project, the first thing I will do is buy my own DRDT-2. Jeff Carpenter 40304 On Apr 18, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Chris Colohan wrote: "- the two most expensive tools which folks rave about are the pneumatic riveter, and the DTRT. Starting off, I'd save your money. [most controversial sentence in this post...] I have borrowed a friend's pnumatic, and it is amazingly fast. This will help you make mistakes faster. Also, it is quite heavy and bulky, which means you really have to plan out how you hold it and position it when getting into tight corners to avoid mis-squeezing a rivet. When you are first starting, slow and careful is the way to go, since mistakes take so long to fix. I have a normal c-frame, and I am frankly somewhat baffled about the supposed speed advantage of a DTRT. Dimpling with a c-frame and mallet is a fast and pretty simple operation. I've hardly spent any time on it compared to all the other work. Not what I'd optimize, IMHO." Cheers Les #40643 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rwendell@hydro-splash.com Sent: April-17-10 5:17 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Firewall access I went with 4x8 ------Original Message------ From: Tony Woods Sender: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Firewall access Sent: Apr 17, 2010 3:00 AM Hey all. This sounds like a stupid question, but I'm about to start work on my empennage in a few weeks and am getting my workshop sorted out. I've got a good set of tools coming from PlaneTools, but am wondering about setting up a work bench. How big? I'm going to build the bench from scratch, so wondering how wide and long would be good, since I can make it any dimension then I might as well make it right... Tony Woods Not started anything yet!! Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:20 PM PST US From: "Tony Woods" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) Oh yeah - a DRDT-2 was the first thing I brought... Tony Do not archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Walker Sent: Monday, 19 April 2010 12:44 p.m. Subject: Re: RV10-List: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) Not to mention a MUCH smaller chance of whackin your hand with the mallet. (a DRDT-2 convert) Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Carpenter Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 7:34 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Workbenches (and other stuff I know now...) ... while I see some sense in the comment below about the pneumatic rivet squeezer, the DRDT-2 Dimpler I found to be a huge improvement over the C-Frame and mallet approach. I used the C-Frame for the first half of the project, then borrowed a fellow builders DRDT-2 for the second half. It's much faster, less prone to mistakes and QUIETER. If I ever start another project, the first thing I will do is buy my own DRDT-2. Jeff Carpenter 40304 On Apr 18, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Chris Colohan wrote: "- the two most expensive tools which folks rave about are the pneumatic riveter, and the DTRT. Starting off, I'd save your money. [most controversial sentence in this post...] I have borrowed a friend's pnumatic, and it is amazingly fast. This will help you make mistakes faster. Also, it is quite heavy and bulky, which means you really have to plan out how you hold it and position it when getting into tight corners to avoid mis-squeezing a rivet. When you are first starting, slow and careful is the way to go, since mistakes take so long to fix. I have a normal c-frame, and I am frankly somewhat baffled about the supposed speed advantage of a DTRT. Dimpling with a c-frame and mallet is a fast and pretty simple operation. I've hardly spent any time on it compared to all the other work. Not what I'd optimize, IMHO." Cheers Les #40643 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rwendell@hydro-splash.com Sent: April-17-10 5:17 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Firewall access I went with 4x8 ------Original Message------ From: Tony Woods Sender: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Firewall access Sent: Apr 17, 2010 3:00 AM Hey all. This sounds like a stupid question, but I'm about to start work on my empennage in a few weeks and am getting my workshop sorted out. I've got a good set of tools coming from PlaneTools, but am wondering about setting up a work bench. How big? I'm going to build the bench from scratch, so wondering how wide and long would be good, since I can make it any dimension then I might as well make it right... Tony Woods Not started anything yet!! Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ========== arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:55 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: rivets at bottom, center of fuse/firewall interface From: "AirMike" Go for it now. Also as I recall there were some prior posts about the cowling bracket being too weak (and breaking) so I fabricated a stronger one that I secure with a pop rivet - not the best solution. I would suggest a nut plate to secure the cowling bracket. Lots stronger - super secure - and easily removable. I see no reason not to button those holes up now. -------- OSH '10 or Bust Q/B - phase 1 / painting Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294790#294790 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:26 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Fuel Lines From: "AirMike" Hands down go for the Bonaco. I futzed with those darned aluminum lines for hours and then finally ordered the Bonaco. Nice folks - good service - reasonable price. On the pass thru (to the wing) just cut a bushing in half on the band saw and snap it in around the Bonaco line. After hours of frustration, I had my fuel lines installed in something like 45 minutes. I think that they have an OSH special if you are going there. -------- OSH '10 or Bust Q/B - phase 1 / painting Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294791#294791 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.