Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:36 AM - Re: RV-10 Fire and Annual results (Werner Schneider)
2. 04:43 AM - Re: Ray Allen position sensor for flaps (Michael Kraus)
3. 05:01 AM - Re: Ray Allen position sensor for flaps (johngoodman)
4. 05:49 AM - Re: Re: Ray Allen position sensor for flaps (Linn Walters)
5. 06:04 AM - Re: RV-10 Fire (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
6. 06:09 AM - Re: RV-10 Fire and Annual results (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
7. 06:55 AM - Re: RV-10 Fire (Danny Riggs)
8. 07:05 AM - Re: RV-10 Fire and Annual results (DLM)
9. 07:12 AM - Re: RV-10 Fire (Perry, Phil)
10. 07:29 AM - Re: RV-10 Fire (Stein Bruch)
11. 08:12 AM - Re: RV-10 Fire (Perry, Phil)
12. 08:44 AM - Re: RV-10 Fire (Tim Olson)
13. 09:07 AM - Re: RV-10 Fire (ddddsp1@juno.com)
14. 09:34 AM - Re: RV-10 Fire (Tim Olson)
15. 09:43 AM - Re: RV-10 Fire (Perry, Phil)
16. 10:09 AM - Re: RV-10 Fire ()
17. 10:10 AM - Re: RV-10 Fire ()
18. 10:25 AM - Re: RV-10 Fire (Bob and Karen Brown)
19. 10:25 AM - Re: RV-10 Fire (Perry, Phil)
20. 12:11 PM - Re: RV-10 Fire (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
21. 12:11 PM - Re: RV-10 Fire (Dave Saylor)
22. 12:12 PM - Re: RV-10 Fire (Tim Olson)
23. 01:51 PM - Re: RV-10 Fire (Perry, Phil)
24. 05:27 PM - Re: RV-10 Fire (Perry, Phil)
25. 08:04 PM - Re: RV-10 Fire (lbgjb10)
26. 08:04 PM - Re: RV-10 Fire (lbgjb10)
27. 08:15 PM - RV-10 Fly-In at X35 (Jesse Saint)
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| Subject: | Re: Ray Allen position sensor for flaps |
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| Subject: | Re: Ray Allen position sensor for flaps |
Don,
Could you do us a favor and remove image "1510" and repost it in a smaller size?
It would get rid of the scrolling to the right.
John
--------
#40572 QB. Working on Cowling & Panel
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297245#297245
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| Subject: | Re: Ray Allen position sensor for flaps |
Google 'imageresizerpowertoy.exe'. Right click on the image in your
email and you can resize it on the fly.
Linn
johngoodman wrote:
>
> Don,
> Could you do us a favor and remove image "1510" and repost it in a smaller size?
It would get rid of the scrolling to the right.
> John
>
> --------
> #40572 QB. Working on Cowling & Panel
> N711JG reserved
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297245#297245
>
>
>
Message 5
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http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html
also
http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from Spruce.
The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city ; I believe
they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays over the engine,
and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add a line to the tunnel
. cost of the system was about $250. I installed this in the 10 because it
was an option on the Glastar I built and it seemed like a good idea on the
10. I don't like the thought of burning. I have pictures of the install and
have posted them in the past . I would include one now but they are on ano
ther computer.
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Riggs<mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
Good idea! Any suggestions about where to get line and fittings for this?
________________________________
From: dlm46007@cox.net<mailto:dlm46007@cox.net>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the components of
the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap motor was the Vans motor.I
am going to plumb a shot of Halon to the tunnel. Also always run a good tes
t when cleaning the fuel filter; use fuel lube on the fittings.
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Riggs<mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The Aeroflow and Andair p
umps are sealed by the looks of them.
________________________________
From: dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com<mailto:dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmai
l.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.
I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the spar so at lea
st a small leak wouldn't puddle.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil <Phil.Perry@netapp.com<mailto:P
hil.Perry@netapp.com>> wrote:
o:Phil.Perry@netapp.com>>
I've been watching that too... Sounds like he's burned but okay.
Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think through a
couple of topics.
Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are explosion
resistant? If not, they probably should be since there are several fuel
lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical items.
I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I think the
RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should immediately
mean no flaps and no boost pump.
For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either. Just
thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the group.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@myrv10.com<mailto:Tim@myrv10.com>]
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 10:29 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
0.com>>
Just caught this on VAF...
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57715
Would be nice to hear that he's really ok, if anyone
knows how bad off they were.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
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Message 6
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| Subject: | RV-10 Fire and Annual results |
Interesting, I may pick one of these up for the tunnel and interface it with my
VP. A while back someone had talked about using one of these for a fire detection
system under the hood....
http://www.superdroidrobots.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=121
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Werner Schneider
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 4:35 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire and Annual results
I use following item as a CO monitor, however it does detect benzene as
well so should be ok to detect fuel vapour.
http://www.conrad-uk.com/ enter on the left hand in the part no 117510
google is your friend, so found it as well here:
<http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/KEMO-ELECTRONIC-B051-/28-8078>
Mine is hooked onto an LED blinking, needs about 1 min to warm up but
then works like a charm
Werner
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Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote sensor
would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with remote for abo
ut $155.
From: rvbuilder@sausen.net
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html
also
http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp
Michael
From:
owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Sunday=2C May 09=2C 2010 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
I
will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from Spruce. T
he
fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city =3B I believe th
ey
have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays over the engine=2C and
between the firewall and aft baffling=3B I will add a line to the tunnel. c
ost of
the system was about $250. I installed this in the 10 because it was an opt
ion
on the Glastar I built and it seemed like a good idea on the 10. I don't li
ke
the thought of burning. I have pictures of the install and have posted
them in the past . I would include one now but they are on another computer
.
-----
Original Message -----
From: Danny Riggs
Sent: Sunday=2C May 09=2C 2010
8:29 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10
Fire
Good idea! Any suggestions about where to
get line and fittings for this?
From: dlm46007@cox.net
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
The engine
was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the components of the tunnel
are. One could expect that the flap motor was the Vans motor.I am going to
plumb a shot of Halon to the tunnel. Also always run a good test when clean
ing
the fuel filter=3B use fuel lube on the fittings.
-----
Original Message -----
From: Danny Riggs
Sent: Sunday=2C May 09=2C 2010
6:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10
Fire
The flap motor has four holes venting the
inside. The Aeroflow and Andair pumps are sealed by the looks of them.
From: dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.
I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the spar so at lea
st a
small leak wouldn't puddle.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville=2C CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On
Sat=2C May 8=2C 2010 at 9:00 PM=2C Perry=2C Phil <Phil.Perry@netapp.com> wr
ote:
-->
RV10-List message posted by: "Perry=2C Phil" <Phil.Perry@netapp.com>
I've been watching that too... Sounds like he's burned but okay.
Not trying to speculate=2C but this event caused me to think through a
couple of topics.
Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are explosion
resistant? If not=2C they probably should be since there are several fuel
lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical items.
I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I think the
RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should immediately
mean no flaps and no boost pump.
For the record=2C I don't even know if he was operating either. Just
thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the group.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@myrv10.com]
Sent: Saturday=2C May 08=2C 2010 10:29 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
Just caught this on VAF...
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57715
Would be nice to hear that he's really ok=2C if anyone
knows how bad off they were.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
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| Subject: | RV-10 Fire and Annual results |
to prevent this, use a longer (9") hinge pin and bend a sharpened 90 (1/2")
on the end. Rivet a hinge knuckle to contain the end on the bottom ledge of
the firewall.
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGann, Ron
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 9:17 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire and Annual results
Phil,
Please let us know what you find wrt vapour sensors. I know I would
certainly be interested. My experience is that if the smell builds up
gradually, you often don't notice it all. Geez, I even remember that
proseal didn't smell that bad after a lengthy session on the tanks. So a
separate warning would be good for me.
For those that may be interested, I just finished my annual. No flames on
this please, but the ONLY issue I discovered was that one of the hinge pins
securing the bottom cowl had vibrated loose in flight and disappeared
somewhere over Greater Sydney. I know that many (ie most) replace the
bottom hinge with a flange/nutplates, but I never got around to it. No
missing or cracked eyelets, just no pin. If you go with the Vans standard
build, make sure you lock wire the bottom pin in place.
Cheers
Ron
VH-XRM flying in Oz
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Monday, 10 May 2010 1:21 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
I'll have to ask Todd, but the changes I'm aware of are:
1) Fuel filter was not installed in the tunnel. Instead he opt'd for
one fuel filter in each wing root.
2) The fuel valve was a 6 port fuel valve. Which I believe is a
requirement for the LS1 and 2 engines??
It makes sense that the fuel pump would be sealed, since it's knows it'll be
flammable environment.
I just checked my flap motor and it's got 4 ports on it too - scary. I'd
like to see a sealed motor.
The tunnel area is like the bilge of an in-board boat. When fuel vapors
build up in that enclosed area and then a engine start (or some other spark
event) is attempted, the spark results in a massive explosion. It wouldn't
take too much of a leak or cracked hard aluminum line to fill the tunnel
with vapors. In fact, Todd never mentioned a rough engine or anything that
would indicate inadequate fuel making its way to the engine.
I've been doing some research today to see if I could find (or identify how
to build) a light-weight and cheap vapor sensor that would flag a warning
light on the panel.
Phil
From: David McNeill [mailto:dlm46007@cox.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the components of
the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap motor was the Vans motor.I am
going to plumb a shot of Halon to the tunnel. Also always run a good test
when cleaning the fuel filter; use fuel lube on the fittings.
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The Aeroflow and Andair
pumps are sealed by the looks of them.
_____
From: dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.
I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the spar so at
least a small leak wouldn't puddle.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil <Phil.Perry@netapp.com> wrote:
I've been watching that too... Sounds like he's burned but okay.
Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think through a
couple of topics.
Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are explosion
resistant? If not, they probably should be since there are several fuel
lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical items.
I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I think the
RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should immediately
mean no flaps and no boost pump.
For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either. Just
thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the group.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@myrv10.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 10:29 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
Just caught this on VAF...
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57715
Would be nice to hear that he's really ok, if anyone
knows how bad off they were.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
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atronics.com/contribution
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Message 9
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Yeah, I'm looking to modify a marine sensor so it illuminates a warning
light.
I don't really like having the sensor controller taking up space on the
panel and I don't think I need the audible buzzer.
For me, the perfect sensor would simply illuminate a warning light near
the flap and boost pump switches...
Still trying to figure out how to do it, but that's the perfect path for
me.
Phil
From: Danny Riggs [mailto:jdriggs49@MSN.COM]
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote
sensor would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with
remote for about $155.
________________________________
From: rvbuilder@sausen.net
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html
also
http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from
Spruce. The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city ;
I believe they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays over
the engine, and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add a line
to the tunnel. cost of the system was about $250. I installed this in
the 10 because it was an option on the Glastar I built and it seemed
like a good idea on the 10. I don't like the thought of burning. I have
pictures of the install and have posted them in the past . I would
include one now but they are on another computer.
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
Good idea! Any suggestions about where to get line and fittings
for this?
________________________________
From: dlm46007@cox.net
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 19:53:05 -0700
The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the
components of the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap motor was
the Vans motor.I am going to plumb a shot of Halon to the tunnel. Also
always run a good test when cleaning the fuel filter; use fuel lube on
the fittings.
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The
Aeroflow and Andair pumps are sealed by the looks of them.
________________________________
From: dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 07:57:50 -0700
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.
I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of
the spar so at least a small leak wouldn't puddle.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil
<Phil.Perry@netapp.com> wrote:
<Phil.Perry@netapp.com>
I've been watching that too... Sounds like he's burned
but okay.
Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to
think through a
couple of topics.
Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are
explosion
resistant? If not, they probably should be since there
are several fuel
lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both
electrical items.
I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now
I think the
RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin
should immediately
mean no flaps and no boost pump.
For the record, I don't even know if he was operating
either. Just
thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of
the group.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@myrv10.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 10:29 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
<Tim@myrv10.com>
Just caught this on VAF...
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57715
Would be nice to hear that he's really ok, if anyone
knows how bad off they were.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
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Message 10
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Hi Guys,
Not trying to flame anyone here or be negative, but just to play a bit of
devils advocate. There are some good ideas and methodologies being
discussed, but I'd caution people against complicating the aircraft trying
to create a solution to a problem we don't even know exists. Firstly, we
don't know what happened to Todd's airplane other than pure conjecture at
this point. Second, it takes a LOT more than a little vapor or fumes or fuel
smell in airplanes to cause a fire in the cockpit. Anyone who's been around
old airplanes knows about leaky manual primers, leaky tanks, etc.. and
history shows that you can have quite a lot of fuel around before it flashes
off. Of course raw fuel being pumped into a plane and onto or near an
ignition source is a disaster waiting to happen, but in that case a vapor
sensor will only slightly give you a short notification before something
happens. I guess I'd look at this this way. It's like a lot of things with
these RV's. If you concentrate your time on building the plane safety,
building it per Van's recommendations and operating it per recommendations,
the likelyhood of failures is very low. There are many thousands of RV's
flying and this is the first time I'm aware of one that burst into flames on
the ground (there may be and probably are others), but even if that is the
case I'll bet many can be traced to a root cause other than spontaneous
combustion. We know Doors will come off if not latched/built properly. We
know nosewheels will fall off if not installed properly. This plane was the
only airworthy example of an RV-10 with a Vesta V8 installation so there are
a LOT of variables to take into consideration other than treating it like a
stock RV10.
Anyway, I'm not advocating that you do nothing and in fact innovation is a
good thing. I'd just caution the generalized design of yet another system to
install in the airplane that at best may give you more peace of mind than
actual safety. If there were a noted problem that is verified, then that's
a different story. But, in this case we don't yet even know what the cause
of the problem was.for all we know a hose/fuel line may have just come off
and been pouring fuel into the plane. In that case not much would have
changed even with a new system to monitor it. Sealing up the flap motor is
of little use (IMHO) because you still have a plane loaded with avionics
(fans, relays, switches, etc..) that all create minute sparks or ignition
sources. The plane itself is full of static electricity, so on and so
forth. You'd need to wear ESD clothing, EST bracelets grounded to the
airplane, explosion proof fans in all the avionics, sealed switches that
don't have any sparks, etc.. which is just not practical.
In the end It's like I said, I'm just playing devils advocate a little bit.
I would however recommend we wait and see what the problem was before we
design systems around it.
My 2 cents as usual!
Cheers,
Stein
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Danny Riggs
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote sensor
would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with remote for about
$155.
_____
From: rvbuilder@sausen.net
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html
also
http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from Spruce.
The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city ; I believe
they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays over the engine,
and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add a line to the tunnel.
cost of the system was about $250. I installed this in the 10 because it was
an option on the Glastar I built and it seemed like a good idea on the 10. I
don't like the thought of burning. I have pictures of the install and have
posted them in the past . I would include one now but they are on another
computer.
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
Good idea! Any suggestions about where to get line and fittings for this?
_____
From: dlm46007@cox.net
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the components of
the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap motor was the Vans motor.I am
going to plumb a shot of Halon to the tunnel. Also always run a good test
when cleaning the fuel filter; use fuel lube on the fittings.
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The Aeroflow and Andair
pumps are sealed by the looks of them.
_____
From: dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.
I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the spar so at
least a small leak wouldn't puddle.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil <Phil.Perry@netapp.com> wrote:
I've been watching that too... Sounds like he's burned but okay.
Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think through a
couple of topics.
Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are explosion
resistant? If not, they probably should be since there are several fuel
lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical items.
I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I think the
RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should immediately
mean no flaps and no boost pump.
For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either. Just
thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the group.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@myrv10.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 10:29 PM
Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
Just caught this on VAF...
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57715
Would be nice to hear that he's really ok, if anyone
knows how bad off they were.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
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==========
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Message 11
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I don't disagree, Stein. That's why I mentioned in the first post that
I had no clue if he was operating any electronics inside the tunnel when
the explosion occurred. I still don't know today.
But that did spur the realization that our tunnel is a great place for
fuel vapors to go undetected and then the activation of an electrical
device could set them off. Not saying that's what occurred to Todd, but
a little common sense would say that could occur with any RV-10
regardless of the engine selection.
If vapors were allowed to build, the most likely ignition sources in a
plans-built RV-10 would be the flap or boost pump motors. Sure there
are other sources in the airplane, but at least they're outside the
enclosed space.
My goals is to encourage others to recognize that a fuel odor in the
cabin is most likely to be from inside the tunnel. And if that's where
the source is - think before you turn on any electrical device inside
it.
The theory above might be completely different from the source of Todd's
explosion. His explosion just caused the wheels of thought to turn and
ultimately lead to the identification of a potential risk. I don't
think anyone is trying to speculate to the specific sources that caused
Todd's explosion. I'm hoping there is enough of his airplane remaining
to determine what actually occurred in his situation.
Phil
From: Stein Bruch [mailto:stein@steinair.com]
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
Hi Guys,
Not trying to flame anyone here or be negative, but just to play a bit
of devils advocate. There are some good ideas and methodologies being
discussed, but I'd caution people against complicating the aircraft
trying to create a solution to a problem we don't even know exists.
Firstly, we don't know what happened to Todd's airplane other than pure
conjecture at this point. Second, it takes a LOT more than a little
vapor or fumes or fuel smell in airplanes to cause a fire in the
cockpit. Anyone who's been around old airplanes knows about leaky
manual primers, leaky tanks, etc.. and history shows that you can have
quite a lot of fuel around before it flashes off. Of course raw fuel
being pumped into a plane and onto or near an ignition source is a
disaster waiting to happen, but in that case a vapor sensor will only
slightly give you a short notification before something happens. I
guess I'd look at this this way. It's like a lot of things with these
RV's. If you concentrate your time on building the plane safety,
building it per Van's recommendations and operating it per
recommendations, the likelyhood of failures is very low. There are many
thousands of RV's flying and this is the first time I'm aware of one
that burst into flames on the ground (there may be and probably are
others), but even if that is the case I'll bet many can be traced to a
root cause other than spontaneous combustion. We know Doors will come
off if not latched/built properly. We know nosewheels will fall off if
not installed properly. This plane was the only airworthy example of an
RV-10 with a Vesta V8 installation so there are a LOT of variables to
take into consideration other than treating it like a stock RV10.
Anyway, I'm not advocating that you do nothing and in fact innovation is
a good thing. I'd just caution the generalized design of yet another
system to install in the airplane that at best may give you more peace
of mind than actual safety. If there were a noted problem that is
verified, then that's a different story. But, in this case we don't yet
even know what the cause of the problem was...for all we know a
hose/fuel line may have just come off and been pouring fuel into the
plane. In that case not much would have changed even with a new system
to monitor it. Sealing up the flap motor is of little use (IMHO)
because you still have a plane loaded with avionics (fans, relays,
switches, etc..) that all create minute sparks or ignition sources. The
plane itself is full of static electricity, so on and so forth. You'd
need to wear ESD clothing, EST bracelets grounded to the airplane,
explosion proof fans in all the avionics, sealed switches that don't
have any sparks, etc.. which is just not practical.
In the end It's like I said, I'm just playing devils advocate a little
bit. I would however recommend we wait and see what the problem was
before we design systems around it.
My 2 cents as usual!
Cheers,
Stein
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Danny Riggs
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote
sensor would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with
remote for about $155.
________________________________
From: rvbuilder@sausen.net
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html
also
http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from
Spruce. The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city ;
I believe they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays over
the engine, and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add a line
to the tunnel. cost of the system was about $250. I installed this in
the 10 because it was an option on the Glastar I built and it seemed
like a good idea on the 10. I don't like the thought of burning. I have
pictures of the install and have posted them in the past . I would
include one now but they are on another computer.
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
Good idea! Any suggestions about where to get line and fittings
for this?
________________________________
From: dlm46007@cox.net
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 19:53:05 -0700
The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the
components of the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap motor was
the Vans motor.I am going to plumb a shot of Halon to the tunnel. Also
always run a good test when cleaning the fuel filter; use fuel lube on
the fittings.
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The
Aeroflow and Andair pumps are sealed by the looks of them.
________________________________
From: dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 07:57:50 -0700
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.
I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of
the spar so at least a small leak wouldn't puddle.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil
<Phil.Perry@netapp.com> wrote:
<Phil.Perry@netapp.com>
I've been watching that too... Sounds like he's burned
but okay.
Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to
think through a
couple of topics.
Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are
explosion
resistant? If not, they probably should be since there
are several fuel
lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both
electrical items.
I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now
I think the
RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin
should immediately
mean no flaps and no boost pump.
For the record, I don't even know if he was operating
either. Just
thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of
the group.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@myrv10.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 10:29 PM
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
<Tim@myrv10.com>
Just caught this on VAF...
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57715
Would be nice to hear that he's really ok, if anyone
knows how bad off they were.
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
==========
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
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==========
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Message 12
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I'd have to agree a bit with Stein on this. A simple light on
the panel may be no big deal, and a fire suppression system
isn't a bad idea if you want the added space use, weight,
or that, either, but there really hasn't been a rash of this
happening in either RV's nor certified planes. So it can
be approached less urgently than most things. If you simply
said you're going to seal the flap motor, great, but if you
plug the existing holes, do you know if there is any downside?
If you drill holes in the belly, you may prevent puddling, but
you may let IN other things too, depending on the air pressure,
and there is hot exhaust just in front of those holes, if you
do get fuel leaking out. So you have to really think
through everything deeply if you want to make mods.
Regarding flammability, as Stein says, there's really a
HEL and LEL to fuel for an explosion. Too much
and it won't blow, too little and it won't blow. So
just having a fuel leak doesn't mean you're GOING to
have a fire. But, there are dozens of things in the
plane that can cause sparks that would ignite vapors
that are within the explosive range...fans on your EFIS
or in the panel, or heck, even the act of opening or
closing a switch. So really, you need to build the plane
in a good solid way, that is trustworthy, and not settle
for any amount of fuel leakage.
Regarding leakage, I just went through this when I swapped
in my new teflon fuel lines. I had one fitting that just
did NOT want to be leak free. I'd install the line,
clean and dry it, fill the tanks, and wait overnight.
It would have moisture on it. Not necessarily even
enough to cause a puddle, but you could feel the fuel
on your fingers. I went round and round until finally
just having them make a new hose for me. That fixed it...
it was an AN-fitting female seat that just didn't have a
perfect seat face or something. But you can't take fuel
issues lightly. That's part of why the quality Andair
valve and not some tractor valve. That's why I also
didn't trust too much of that hard aluminum tubing.
I didn't like the way I saw micro cracks on some batches
of tubing when I bent it. Some of that tubing that
I got from Van's was really not good stuff. I'd buy the
same stuff again, or get some from ACS and it was
better. But ultimately, I trust a stainless braided
teflon line much better against work hardening and
fatigue cracking.
So, the deal with fuel vapors really might be just
installing a vapor sensor if you just want to know
about the vapors, or a fire suppression system in the
tunnel if you really want to go hardcore on it. But
certainly think through everything in detail first.
Also, consider this....you smell fuel in the cockpit (i
have before on other planes)...what do you do? Apparently
they landed and taxiied in, and then it blew. If it were
really fuel in the cockpit, I believe the "proper" thing
to do would be to immediately shut off all electrics.
100% of them. If you have magnetos, you may be in luck
and even be able to consider still keeping the engine
running until you're on the ground. If not, you have to
decide how much risk you'll take. I'd still leave my
lightspeed on, because there shouldn't be any spark
inside the cockpit. But, you certainly wouldn't want to
leave the fuel pump on. Some engines (not lycomings)
won't run without fuel pumps on. But anyway, the outcome
might have been different if on short final, they pulled
the mixture off, and hit the master off, and just
glided down and rolled off the runway, calling the
tower/trucks/or whatever. Taxiing in probably wasn't a
good idea. This is not to be critical of Todd, because
I'm sure he certainly was trying to do the right thing.
It's just to point out that the outcome can change pretty
easily based on both the situation and the reaction to it.
With no master on, and just touchdown to full stop, then
doors open, it could have been a whole different thing.
Or, maybe switching off the master would have been the
spark that blew the whole thing off. Food for thought.
One tidbit that would be really interesting is this....
Was the tunnel blown apart or blown out in any way?
This would make it easy to tell if the explosion happened
in the tunnel or in the cabin. A real wild a$s guess
would be the cockpit, because if the tunnel would
have blow apart, I'd think it would have caused
some serious shrapnel injuries. So if it were just
cockpit fumes, would a tunnel mounted vapor sensor
have helped?
The post accident questions can really teach a lot and
make you think about it, can't it? I'm just glad Todd
and his daughter are going to be OK. But maybe if nothing
else comes of it, the one obvious thing can be learned by
others....get on the ground, and remove all electricity,
immediately...then get the door open and out of the plane.
It was also interesting to note his take on Van's door latch
mod. I guess I tend to agree...if you're in a panic trying
to get out, or in a non-pilots perspective, see it from
his daughters eyes....having one more latch to lift may
not be the ideal situation. Something more automatic
like Sean's latches might be far nicer in such a situation.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
Stein Bruch wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
>
>
> Not trying to flame anyone here or be negative, but just to play a bit
> of devils advocate. There are some good ideas and methodologies being
> discussed, but Id caution people against complicating the aircraft
> trying to create a solution to a problem we dont even know exists.
> Firstly, we dont know what happened to Todds airplane other than pure
> conjecture at this point. Second, it takes a LOT more than a little
> vapor or fumes or fuel smell in airplanes to cause a fire in the
> cockpit. Anyone whos been around old airplanes knows about leaky
> manual primers, leaky tanks, etc.. and history shows that you can have
> quite a lot of fuel around before it flashes off. Of course raw fuel
> being pumped into a plane and onto or near an ignition source is a
> disaster waiting to happen, but in that case a vapor sensor will only
> slightly give you a short notification before something happens. I
> guess Id look at this this way. Its like a lot of things with these
> RVs. If you concentrate your time on building the plane safety,
> building it per Vans recommendations and operating it per
> recommendations, the likelyhood of failures is very low. There are many
> thousands of RVs flying and this is the first time Im aware of one
> that burst into flames on the ground (there may be and probably are
> others), but even if that is the case Ill bet many can be traced to a
> root cause other than spontaneous combustion. We know Doors will come
> off if not latched/built properly. We know nosewheels will fall off if
> not installed properly. This plane was the only airworthy example of an
> RV-10 with a Vesta V8 installation so there are a LOT of variables to
> take into consideration other than treating it like a stock RV10.
>
>
>
> Anyway, Im not advocating that you do nothing and in fact innovation is
> a good thing. Id just caution the generalized design of yet another
> system to install in the airplane that at best may give you more peace
> of mind than actual safety. If there were a noted problem that is
> verified, then thats a different story. But, in this case we dont yet
> even know what the cause of the problem wasfor all we know a hose/fuel
> line may have just come off and been pouring fuel into the plane. In
> that case not much would have changed even with a new system to monitor
> it. Sealing up the flap motor is of little use (IMHO) because you still
> have a plane loaded with avionics (fans, relays, switches, etc..) that
> all create minute sparks or ignition sources. The plane itself is full
> of static electricity, so on and so forth. Youd need to wear ESD
> clothing, EST bracelets grounded to the airplane, explosion proof fans
> in all the avionics, sealed switches that dont have any sparks, etc..
> which is just not practical.
>
>
>
> In the end Its like I said, Im just playing devils advocate a little
> bit. I would however recommend we wait and see what the problem was
> before we design systems around it.
>
>
>
> My 2 cents as usual!
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stein
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Danny Riggs
> *Sent:* Monday, May 10, 2010 8:53 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>
>
>
> Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote
> sensor would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with
> remote for about $155.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: rvbuilder@sausen.net
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:03:31 -0500
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>
> http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html
>
>
>
> also
>
>
>
> http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *David McNeill
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>
>
>
> I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from
> Spruce. The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city ;
> I believe they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays over
> the engine, and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add a line
> to the tunnel. cost of the system was about $250. I installed this in
> the 10 because it was an option on the Glastar I built and it seemed
> like a good idea on the 10. I don't like the thought of burning. I have
> pictures of the install and have posted them in the past . I would
> include one now but they are on another computer.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
>
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:29 PM
>
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>
>
>
> Good idea! Any suggestions about where to get line and fittings for
> this?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: dlm46007@cox.net <mailto:dlm46007@cox.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 19:53:05 -0700
>
> The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the
> components of the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap motor
> was the Vans motor.I am going to plumb a shot of Halon to the
> tunnel. Also always run a good test when cleaning the fuel filter;
> use fuel lube on the fittings.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
>
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:20 PM
>
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>
>
>
> The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The Aeroflow
> and Andair pumps are sealed by the looks of them.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com
> <mailto:dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 07:57:50 -0700
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>
> The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.
>
> I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the
> spar so at least a small leak wouldn't puddle.
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters LLC
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil
> <Phil.Perry@netapp.com <mailto:Phil.Perry@netapp.com>> wrote:
>
> <Phil.Perry@netapp.com <mailto:Phil.Perry@netapp.com>>
>
> I've been watching that too... Sounds like he's burned but okay.
>
> Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think through a
> couple of topics.
>
> Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are explosion
> resistant? If not, they probably should be since there are
> several fuel
> lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical
> items.
>
> I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I think the
> RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should
> immediately
> mean no flaps and no boost pump.
>
> For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either. Just
> thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the group.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@myrv10.com <mailto:Tim@myrv10.com>]
> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 10:29 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>
> <mailto:Tim@myrv10.com>>
>
> Just caught this on VAF...
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57715
>
> Would be nice to hear that he's really ok, if anyone
> knows how bad off they were.
>
> --
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Message 13
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Come on Stein.......................you take all the fun out of reading
these post when you add COMMON SENSE into the mix!
Have to share this recent experience to show how even builders who seek
help from other builders can be a danger to themselves. An RV10 b
uilder had shared with me how he had just completed fitting his doors an
d was very proud of how well they fit. He then put on the Vans stock gr
ey door seal..........and now the doors required several pounds of force
to get them shut. BTW he did install the new Safety latch per Vans. N
ext fix was to harden the door to the rear and put a handle there so he
could pull the door in at the front and rear. After all was said and do
ne the doors shut ............but the seal deformed the door and it was
not flush to the canopy. So he asks me how did we get our doors to fi
t and close so well? When I showed him the COMMON SENSE approach to sea
ling doors on the RV10 without requiring any pressure to close them.....
.........he chuckled and said..........That will not work on my plane!
LOL And we wonder how doors come off these planes? The point I am ma
king and what I think Stein is making is................a knee jerk reac
tion and over modifying a proven design can be more dangerous then a lit
tle COMMON SENSE.
Until that happens the list will continue to be a great source of inform
ation and entertainment unless Stein stops it with his Devils Advocate s
tuff.............lol
Dean
____________________________________________________________
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Message 14
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PS: during troubleshooting the fuel fitting, I did
drill in a hole on each side of the tunnel by
the fuel valve to use for visual/digital (finger)/sniff
inspection of the tunnel area near the fuel valve.
I didn't want a huge access hole, but something simple
that I could take a quick peek and sniff through.
With one on each side I can light it up with a
flashlight too.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
Tim Olson wrote:
>
> I'd have to agree a bit with Stein on this. A simple light on
> the panel may be no big deal, and a fire suppression system
> isn't a bad idea if you want the added space use, weight,
> or that, either, but there really hasn't been a rash of this
> happening in either RV's nor certified planes. So it can
> be approached less urgently than most things. If you simply
> said you're going to seal the flap motor, great, but if you
> plug the existing holes, do you know if there is any downside?
> If you drill holes in the belly, you may prevent puddling, but
> you may let IN other things too, depending on the air pressure,
> and there is hot exhaust just in front of those holes, if you
> do get fuel leaking out. So you have to really think
> through everything deeply if you want to make mods.
>
> Regarding flammability, as Stein says, there's really a
> HEL and LEL to fuel for an explosion. Too much
> and it won't blow, too little and it won't blow. So
> just having a fuel leak doesn't mean you're GOING to
> have a fire. But, there are dozens of things in the
> plane that can cause sparks that would ignite vapors
> that are within the explosive range...fans on your EFIS
> or in the panel, or heck, even the act of opening or
> closing a switch. So really, you need to build the plane
> in a good solid way, that is trustworthy, and not settle
> for any amount of fuel leakage.
>
> Regarding leakage, I just went through this when I swapped
> in my new teflon fuel lines. I had one fitting that just
> did NOT want to be leak free. I'd install the line,
> clean and dry it, fill the tanks, and wait overnight.
> It would have moisture on it. Not necessarily even
> enough to cause a puddle, but you could feel the fuel
> on your fingers. I went round and round until finally
> just having them make a new hose for me. That fixed it...
> it was an AN-fitting female seat that just didn't have a
> perfect seat face or something. But you can't take fuel
> issues lightly. That's part of why the quality Andair
> valve and not some tractor valve. That's why I also
> didn't trust too much of that hard aluminum tubing.
> I didn't like the way I saw micro cracks on some batches
> of tubing when I bent it. Some of that tubing that
> I got from Van's was really not good stuff. I'd buy the
> same stuff again, or get some from ACS and it was
> better. But ultimately, I trust a stainless braided
> teflon line much better against work hardening and
> fatigue cracking.
>
> So, the deal with fuel vapors really might be just
> installing a vapor sensor if you just want to know
> about the vapors, or a fire suppression system in the
> tunnel if you really want to go hardcore on it. But
> certainly think through everything in detail first.
>
> Also, consider this....you smell fuel in the cockpit (i
> have before on other planes)...what do you do? Apparently
> they landed and taxiied in, and then it blew. If it were
> really fuel in the cockpit, I believe the "proper" thing
> to do would be to immediately shut off all electrics.
> 100% of them. If you have magnetos, you may be in luck
> and even be able to consider still keeping the engine
> running until you're on the ground. If not, you have to
> decide how much risk you'll take. I'd still leave my
> lightspeed on, because there shouldn't be any spark
> inside the cockpit. But, you certainly wouldn't want to
> leave the fuel pump on. Some engines (not lycomings)
> won't run without fuel pumps on. But anyway, the outcome
> might have been different if on short final, they pulled
> the mixture off, and hit the master off, and just
> glided down and rolled off the runway, calling the
> tower/trucks/or whatever. Taxiing in probably wasn't a
> good idea. This is not to be critical of Todd, because
> I'm sure he certainly was trying to do the right thing.
> It's just to point out that the outcome can change pretty
> easily based on both the situation and the reaction to it.
> With no master on, and just touchdown to full stop, then
> doors open, it could have been a whole different thing.
> Or, maybe switching off the master would have been the
> spark that blew the whole thing off. Food for thought.
>
> One tidbit that would be really interesting is this....
> Was the tunnel blown apart or blown out in any way?
> This would make it easy to tell if the explosion happened
> in the tunnel or in the cabin. A real wild a$s guess
> would be the cockpit, because if the tunnel would
> have blow apart, I'd think it would have caused
> some serious shrapnel injuries. So if it were just
> cockpit fumes, would a tunnel mounted vapor sensor
> have helped?
>
> The post accident questions can really teach a lot and
> make you think about it, can't it? I'm just glad Todd
> and his daughter are going to be OK. But maybe if nothing
> else comes of it, the one obvious thing can be learned by
> others....get on the ground, and remove all electricity,
> immediately...then get the door open and out of the plane.
>
> It was also interesting to note his take on Van's door latch
> mod. I guess I tend to agree...if you're in a panic trying
> to get out, or in a non-pilots perspective, see it from
> his daughters eyes....having one more latch to lift may
> not be the ideal situation. Something more automatic
> like Sean's latches might be far nicer in such a situation.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
>
>
> Stein Bruch wrote:
>> Hi Guys,
>>
>>
>>
>> Not trying to flame anyone here or be negative, but just to play a bit
>> of devils advocate. There are some good ideas and methodologies being
>> discussed, but Id caution people against complicating the aircraft
>> trying to create a solution to a problem we dont even know exists.
>> Firstly, we dont know what happened to Todds airplane other than
>> pure conjecture at this point. Second, it takes a LOT more than a
>> little vapor or fumes or fuel smell in airplanes to cause a fire in
>> the cockpit. Anyone whos been around old airplanes knows about leaky
>> manual primers, leaky tanks, etc.. and history shows that you can have
>> quite a lot of fuel around before it flashes off. Of course raw fuel
>> being pumped into a plane and onto or near an ignition source is a
>> disaster waiting to happen, but in that case a vapor sensor will only
>> slightly give you a short notification before something happens. I
>> guess Id look at this this way. Its like a lot of things with these
>> RVs. If you concentrate your time on building the plane safety,
>> building it per Vans recommendations and operating it per
>> recommendations, the likelyhood of failures is very low. There are
>> many thousands of RVs flying and this is the first time Im aware of
>> one that burst into flames on the ground (there may be and probably
>> are others), but even if that is the case Ill bet many can be traced
>> to a root cause other than spontaneous combustion. We know Doors will
>> come off if not latched/built properly. We know nosewheels will fall
>> off if not installed properly. This plane was the only airworthy
>> example of an RV-10 with a Vesta V8 installation so there are a LOT of
>> variables to take into consideration other than treating it like a
>> stock RV10.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyway, Im not advocating that you do nothing and in fact innovation
>> is a good thing. Id just caution the generalized design of yet
>> another system to install in the airplane that at best may give you
>> more peace of mind than actual safety. If there were a noted problem
>> that is verified, then thats a different story. But, in this case we
>> dont yet even know what the cause of the problem wasfor all we know
>> a hose/fuel line may have just come off and been pouring fuel into
>> the plane. In that case not much would have changed even with a new
>> system to monitor it. Sealing up the flap motor is of little use
>> (IMHO) because you still have a plane loaded with avionics (fans,
>> relays, switches, etc..) that all create minute sparks or ignition
>> sources. The plane itself is full of static electricity, so on and so
>> forth. Youd need to wear ESD clothing, EST bracelets grounded to the
>> airplane, explosion proof fans in all the avionics, sealed switches
>> that dont have any sparks, etc.. which is just not practical.
>>
>>
>>
>> In the end Its like I said, Im just playing devils advocate a little
>> bit. I would however recommend we wait and see what the problem was
>> before we design systems around it.
>>
>>
>>
>> My 2 cents as usual!
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Stein
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Danny Riggs
>> *Sent:* Monday, May 10, 2010 8:53 AM
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>>
>>
>>
>> Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote
>> sensor would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with
>> remote for about $155.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> From: rvbuilder@sausen.net
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:03:31 -0500
>> Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>>
>> http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html
>>
>>
>>
>> also
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *David
>> McNeill
>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>>
>>
>>
>> I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from
>> Spruce. The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city
>> ; I believe they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays
>> over the engine, and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add
>> a line to the tunnel. cost of the system was about $250. I installed
>> this in the 10 because it was an option on the Glastar I built and it
>> seemed like a good idea on the 10. I don't like the thought of
>> burning. I have pictures of the install and have posted them in the
>> past . I would include one now but they are on another computer.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> *From:* Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
>>
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:29 PM
>>
>> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>>
>>
>> Good idea! Any suggestions about where to get line and fittings for
>> this?
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> From: dlm46007@cox.net <mailto:dlm46007@cox.net>
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>> Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 19:53:05 -0700
>>
>> The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the
>> components of the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap motor
>> was the Vans motor.I am going to plumb a shot of Halon to the
>> tunnel. Also always run a good test when cleaning the fuel filter;
>> use fuel lube on the fittings.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> *From:* Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
>>
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:20 PM
>>
>> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>>
>>
>> The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The Aeroflow
>> and Andair pumps are sealed by the looks of them.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> From: dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com
>> <mailto:dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
>> Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 07:57:50 -0700
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>>
>> The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.
>>
>> I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the
>> spar so at least a small leak wouldn't puddle.
>>
>> Dave Saylor
>> AirCrafters LLC
>> 140 Aviation Way
>> Watsonville, CA 95076
>> 831-722-9141 Shop
>> 831-750-0284 Cell
>>
>> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil
>> <Phil.Perry@netapp.com <mailto:Phil.Perry@netapp.com>> wrote:
>>
>> <Phil.Perry@netapp.com <mailto:Phil.Perry@netapp.com>>
>>
>> I've been watching that too... Sounds like he's burned but okay.
>>
>> Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think
>> through a
>> couple of topics.
>>
>> Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are explosion
>> resistant? If not, they probably should be since there are
>> several fuel
>> lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical
>> items.
>>
>> I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I
>> think the
>> RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should
>> immediately
>> mean no flaps and no boost pump.
>>
>> For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either.
>> Just
>> thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the group.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@myrv10.com <mailto:Tim@myrv10.com>]
>> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 10:29 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>>
>> <mailto:Tim@myrv10.com>>
>>
>> Just caught this on VAF...
>> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57715
>>
>> Would be nice to hear that he's really ok, if anyone
>> knows how bad off they were.
>>
>> --
>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigatwww.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
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Message 15
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I can't see how a vapor sensor and indicator light would be a Darwin
award winner or a modification of significance in any way. We already
install CO vapor sensors to protect against something unseen, this is
no different. If I'm wrong, please correct me or explain why my
thinking is messed up because I just don't see anything wrong with it.
Some could argue that it's not necessary and their perspective would be
correct too. After all, we've only had one plane explode on us and we
don't even know the cause of it. Any changes could be perceived as a
knee-jerk reaction; and at this point they are.
I would think twice about shooting Halon into the tunnel though. In an
explosion it wouldn't help (except for a post-explosion fire) and I
prefer to keep that stuff outside the cabin.
Phil
From: ddddsp1@juno.com [mailto:ddddsp1@juno.com]
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:05 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
Come on Stein.......................you take all the fun out of reading
these post when you add COMMON SENSE into the mix!
Have to share this recent experience to show how even builders who seek
help from other builders can be a danger to themselves. An RV10
builder had shared with me how he had just completed fitting his doors
and was very proud of how well they fit. He then put on the Vans stock
grey door seal..........and now the doors required several pounds of
force to get them shut. BTW he did install the new Safety latch per
Vans. Next fix was to harden the door to the rear and put a handle
there so he could pull the door in at the front and rear. After all was
said and done the doors shut ............but the seal deformed the door
and it was not flush to the canopy. So he asks me how did we get our
doors to fit and close so well? When I showed him the COMMON SENSE
approach to sealing doors on the RV10 without requiring any pressure to
close them..............he chuckled and said..........That will not work
on my plane! LOL And we wonder how doors come off these planes? The
point I am making and what I think Stein is making is................a
knee jerk reaction and over modifying a proven design can be more
dangerous then a little COMMON SENSE.
Until that happens the list will continue to be a great source of
information and entertainment unless Stein stops it with his Devils
Advocate stuff.............lol
Dean
____________________________________________________________
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Message 16
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Actually Halon would form a non explosive vapor environment over any puddled fuel.
Fighter aircraft blow the Halon bottle into the fuel tanks to limit their
ability to explode if hit by anti aircraft anything. Least that's what I've been
told. FWIW I think a 1/4 cup of gasoline will yield enough vapor to produce
an explosion equivalent to several sticks of TNT. Carbon Monoxide is odorless,
I can justify that sensor, I would seriously consider investing in the best
fuel "system" money can buy. My annual is gonna start next weekend. First thing
on my list is to order the Teflon lines to replace the braided one I made initially.
Nothing wrong with them but they can be made better. The pressure produced
on Todd's incident must have been pretty high to blow out the windows. I
suspect it was not the tunnel that blew but fuel vapors in the low lying areas
of the aircraft. Gasoline vapors in that much concentration would have been
very detectible to the nose if they had been near their heads. Just thinking out
loud. Glad they are OK.
Rick S.
N246RS
Flying
---- "Perry wrote:
> I can't see how a vapor sensor and indicator light would be a Darwin
> award winner or a modification of significance in any way. We already
> install CO vapor sensors to protect against something unseen, this is
> no different. If I'm wrong, please correct me or explain why my
> thinking is messed up because I just don't see anything wrong with it.
>
>
>
> Some could argue that it's not necessary and their perspective would be
> correct too. After all, we've only had one plane explode on us and we
> don't even know the cause of it. Any changes could be perceived as a
> knee-jerk reaction; and at this point they are.
>
>
>
> I would think twice about shooting Halon into the tunnel though. In an
> explosion it wouldn't help (except for a post-explosion fire) and I
> prefer to keep that stuff outside the cabin.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: ddddsp1@juno.com [mailto:ddddsp1@juno.com]
> Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:05 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>
>
>
> Come on Stein.......................you take all the fun out of reading
> these post when you add COMMON SENSE into the mix!
>
> Have to share this recent experience to show how even builders who seek
> help from other builders can be a danger to themselves. An RV10
> builder had shared with me how he had just completed fitting his doors
> and was very proud of how well they fit. He then put on the Vans stock
> grey door seal..........and now the doors required several pounds of
> force to get them shut. BTW he did install the new Safety latch per
> Vans. Next fix was to harden the door to the rear and put a handle
> there so he could pull the door in at the front and rear. After all was
> said and done the doors shut ............but the seal deformed the door
> and it was not flush to the canopy. So he asks me how did we get our
> doors to fit and close so well? When I showed him the COMMON SENSE
> approach to sealing doors on the RV10 without requiring any pressure to
> close them..............he chuckled and said..........That will not work
> on my plane! LOL And we wonder how doors come off these planes? The
> point I am making and what I think Stein is making is................a
> knee jerk reaction and over modifying a proven design can be more
> dangerous then a little COMMON SENSE.
>
> Until that happens the list will continue to be a great source of
> information and entertainment unless Stein stops it with his Devils
> Advocate stuff.............lol
>
> Dean
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
> Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3132/4be82ef49c74384c39st04vuc>
> AwesomePennyStocks.com
> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3132/4be82ef49c74384c39st04vuc>
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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Make sure your flashlight is hermetically sealed and intrinsically safe for use
in an explosive atmosphere! :)
do not archive
---- Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
>
> PS: during troubleshooting the fuel fitting, I did
> drill in a hole on each side of the tunnel by
> the fuel valve to use for visual/digital (finger)/sniff
> inspection of the tunnel area near the fuel valve.
> I didn't want a huge access hole, but something simple
> that I could take a quick peek and sniff through.
> With one on each side I can light it up with a
> flashlight too.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
>
>
> Tim Olson wrote:
> >
> > I'd have to agree a bit with Stein on this. A simple light on
> > the panel may be no big deal, and a fire suppression system
> > isn't a bad idea if you want the added space use, weight,
> > or that, either, but there really hasn't been a rash of this
> > happening in either RV's nor certified planes. So it can
> > be approached less urgently than most things. If you simply
> > said you're going to seal the flap motor, great, but if you
> > plug the existing holes, do you know if there is any downside?
> > If you drill holes in the belly, you may prevent puddling, but
> > you may let IN other things too, depending on the air pressure,
> > and there is hot exhaust just in front of those holes, if you
> > do get fuel leaking out. So you have to really think
> > through everything deeply if you want to make mods.
> >
> > Regarding flammability, as Stein says, there's really a
> > HEL and LEL to fuel for an explosion. Too much
> > and it won't blow, too little and it won't blow. So
> > just having a fuel leak doesn't mean you're GOING to
> > have a fire. But, there are dozens of things in the
> > plane that can cause sparks that would ignite vapors
> > that are within the explosive range...fans on your EFIS
> > or in the panel, or heck, even the act of opening or
> > closing a switch. So really, you need to build the plane
> > in a good solid way, that is trustworthy, and not settle
> > for any amount of fuel leakage.
> >
> > Regarding leakage, I just went through this when I swapped
> > in my new teflon fuel lines. I had one fitting that just
> > did NOT want to be leak free. I'd install the line,
> > clean and dry it, fill the tanks, and wait overnight.
> > It would have moisture on it. Not necessarily even
> > enough to cause a puddle, but you could feel the fuel
> > on your fingers. I went round and round until finally
> > just having them make a new hose for me. That fixed it...
> > it was an AN-fitting female seat that just didn't have a
> > perfect seat face or something. But you can't take fuel
> > issues lightly. That's part of why the quality Andair
> > valve and not some tractor valve. That's why I also
> > didn't trust too much of that hard aluminum tubing.
> > I didn't like the way I saw micro cracks on some batches
> > of tubing when I bent it. Some of that tubing that
> > I got from Van's was really not good stuff. I'd buy the
> > same stuff again, or get some from ACS and it was
> > better. But ultimately, I trust a stainless braided
> > teflon line much better against work hardening and
> > fatigue cracking.
> >
> > So, the deal with fuel vapors really might be just
> > installing a vapor sensor if you just want to know
> > about the vapors, or a fire suppression system in the
> > tunnel if you really want to go hardcore on it. But
> > certainly think through everything in detail first.
> >
> > Also, consider this....you smell fuel in the cockpit (i
> > have before on other planes)...what do you do? Apparently
> > they landed and taxiied in, and then it blew. If it were
> > really fuel in the cockpit, I believe the "proper" thing
> > to do would be to immediately shut off all electrics.
> > 100% of them. If you have magnetos, you may be in luck
> > and even be able to consider still keeping the engine
> > running until you're on the ground. If not, you have to
> > decide how much risk you'll take. I'd still leave my
> > lightspeed on, because there shouldn't be any spark
> > inside the cockpit. But, you certainly wouldn't want to
> > leave the fuel pump on. Some engines (not lycomings)
> > won't run without fuel pumps on. But anyway, the outcome
> > might have been different if on short final, they pulled
> > the mixture off, and hit the master off, and just
> > glided down and rolled off the runway, calling the
> > tower/trucks/or whatever. Taxiing in probably wasn't a
> > good idea. This is not to be critical of Todd, because
> > I'm sure he certainly was trying to do the right thing.
> > It's just to point out that the outcome can change pretty
> > easily based on both the situation and the reaction to it.
> > With no master on, and just touchdown to full stop, then
> > doors open, it could have been a whole different thing.
> > Or, maybe switching off the master would have been the
> > spark that blew the whole thing off. Food for thought.
> >
> > One tidbit that would be really interesting is this....
> > Was the tunnel blown apart or blown out in any way?
> > This would make it easy to tell if the explosion happened
> > in the tunnel or in the cabin. A real wild a$s guess
> > would be the cockpit, because if the tunnel would
> > have blow apart, I'd think it would have caused
> > some serious shrapnel injuries. So if it were just
> > cockpit fumes, would a tunnel mounted vapor sensor
> > have helped?
> >
> > The post accident questions can really teach a lot and
> > make you think about it, can't it? I'm just glad Todd
> > and his daughter are going to be OK. But maybe if nothing
> > else comes of it, the one obvious thing can be learned by
> > others....get on the ground, and remove all electricity,
> > immediately...then get the door open and out of the plane.
> >
> > It was also interesting to note his take on Van's door latch
> > mod. I guess I tend to agree...if you're in a panic trying
> > to get out, or in a non-pilots perspective, see it from
> > his daughters eyes....having one more latch to lift may
> > not be the ideal situation. Something more automatic
> > like Sean's latches might be far nicer in such a situation.
> >
> > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> > Stein Bruch wrote:
> >> Hi Guys,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Not trying to flame anyone here or be negative, but just to play a bit
> >> of devils advocate. There are some good ideas and methodologies being
> >> discussed, but Id caution people against complicating the aircraft
> >> trying to create a solution to a problem we dont even know exists.
> >> Firstly, we dont know what happened to Todds airplane other than
> >> pure conjecture at this point. Second, it takes a LOT more than a
> >> little vapor or fumes or fuel smell in airplanes to cause a fire in
> >> the cockpit. Anyone whos been around old airplanes knows about leaky
> >> manual primers, leaky tanks, etc.. and history shows that you can have
> >> quite a lot of fuel around before it flashes off. Of course raw fuel
> >> being pumped into a plane and onto or near an ignition source is a
> >> disaster waiting to happen, but in that case a vapor sensor will only
> >> slightly give you a short notification before something happens. I
> >> guess Id look at this this way. Its like a lot of things with these
> >> RVs. If you concentrate your time on building the plane safety,
> >> building it per Vans recommendations and operating it per
> >> recommendations, the likelyhood of failures is very low. There are
> >> many thousands of RVs flying and this is the first time Im aware of
> >> one that burst into flames on the ground (there may be and probably
> >> are others), but even if that is the case Ill bet many can be traced
> >> to a root cause other than spontaneous combustion. We know Doors will
> >> come off if not latched/built properly. We know nosewheels will fall
> >> off if not installed properly. This plane was the only airworthy
> >> example of an RV-10 with a Vesta V8 installation so there are a LOT of
> >> variables to take into consideration other than treating it like a
> >> stock RV10.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Anyway, Im not advocating that you do nothing and in fact innovation
> >> is a good thing. Id just caution the generalized design of yet
> >> another system to install in the airplane that at best may give you
> >> more peace of mind than actual safety. If there were a noted problem
> >> that is verified, then thats a different story. But, in this case we
> >> dont yet even know what the cause of the problem wasfor all we know
> >> a hose/fuel line may have just come off and been pouring fuel into
> >> the plane. In that case not much would have changed even with a new
> >> system to monitor it. Sealing up the flap motor is of little use
> >> (IMHO) because you still have a plane loaded with avionics (fans,
> >> relays, switches, etc..) that all create minute sparks or ignition
> >> sources. The plane itself is full of static electricity, so on and so
> >> forth. Youd need to wear ESD clothing, EST bracelets grounded to the
> >> airplane, explosion proof fans in all the avionics, sealed switches
> >> that dont have any sparks, etc.. which is just not practical.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> In the end Its like I said, Im just playing devils advocate a little
> >> bit. I would however recommend we wait and see what the problem was
> >> before we design systems around it.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> My 2 cents as usual!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Stein
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Danny Riggs
> >> *Sent:* Monday, May 10, 2010 8:53 AM
> >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> >> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote
> >> sensor would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with
> >> remote for about $155.
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> From: rvbuilder@sausen.net
> >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> >> Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:03:31 -0500
> >> Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> >>
> >> http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> also
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *David
> >> McNeill
> >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM
> >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> >> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from
> >> Spruce. The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city
> >> ; I believe they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays
> >> over the engine, and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add
> >> a line to the tunnel. cost of the system was about $250. I installed
> >> this in the 10 because it was an option on the Glastar I built and it
> >> seemed like a good idea on the 10. I don't like the thought of
> >> burning. I have pictures of the install and have posted them in the
> >> past . I would include one now but they are on another computer.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>
> >> *From:* Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
> >>
> >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> >>
> >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:29 PM
> >>
> >> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> >>
> >>
> >> Good idea! Any suggestions about where to get line and fittings for
> >> this?
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> From: dlm46007@cox.net <mailto:dlm46007@cox.net>
> >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> >> Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 19:53:05 -0700
> >>
> >> The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the
> >> components of the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap motor
> >> was the Vans motor.I am going to plumb a shot of Halon to the
> >> tunnel. Also always run a good test when cleaning the fuel filter;
> >> use fuel lube on the fittings.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>
> >> *From:* Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
> >>
> >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> >>
> >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:20 PM
> >>
> >> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> >>
> >>
> >> The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The Aeroflow
> >> and Andair pumps are sealed by the looks of them.
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> From: dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
> >> Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 07:57:50 -0700
> >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> >>
> >> The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.
> >>
> >> I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the
> >> spar so at least a small leak wouldn't puddle.
> >>
> >> Dave Saylor
> >> AirCrafters LLC
> >> 140 Aviation Way
> >> Watsonville, CA 95076
> >> 831-722-9141 Shop
> >> 831-750-0284 Cell
> >>
> >> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil
> >> <Phil.Perry@netapp.com <mailto:Phil.Perry@netapp.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> <Phil.Perry@netapp.com <mailto:Phil.Perry@netapp.com>>
> >>
> >> I've been watching that too... Sounds like he's burned but okay.
> >>
> >> Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think
> >> through a
> >> couple of topics.
> >>
> >> Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are explosion
> >> resistant? If not, they probably should be since there are
> >> several fuel
> >> lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical
> >> items.
> >>
> >> I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I
> >> think the
> >> RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should
> >> immediately
> >> mean no flaps and no boost pump.
> >>
> >> For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either.
> >> Just
> >> thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the group.
> >>
> >> Phil
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@myrv10.com <mailto:Tim@myrv10.com>]
> >> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 10:29 PM
> >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> >> Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> >>
> >> <mailto:Tim@myrv10.com>>
> >>
> >> Just caught this on VAF...
> >> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57715
> >>
> >> Would be nice to hear that he's really ok, if anyone
> >> knows how bad off they were.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> >> do not archive
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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> >> http://forums.matronics.com
> >> ==========
> >> le, List Admin.
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
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> >> <http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3>
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Message 18
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What I heard as a casual listener is that installing a vapor sensor wouldn't
hurt anything, and it probably wouldn't. Would it be another layer of
complexity? Sure, on some level. It may or may not have given any benefit
in this instance, same thing with a fire suppression system.generally not
much use in what sounded like an explosive fuel/air mixture. Given my
experience with other monitor systems, the incidence of even one false alarm
may cause more harm than help, depending on our reaction to the alarm.
Reminds me of one of our employees who broke a hip during a fire drill, then
had a heart attack and died. That sounds like something I'd do.
What I heard Stein say effectively, without dissing any particular
installation, is that we need to remember that when these RV's are built
simply and per plans and in accordance with AC4313, FAR's and generally
accepted A&P methods, we haven't seen a propensity toward fuel/explosion
hazards. As such we need to avoid a redesign of any particular system
without knowing any of the background on the causes of this incident.
Since we have no clue what the fuel system looked like on this particular
airplane in terms of design, installation or materials, we're just going to
have to see what develops. What I heard Stein saying was, that in the
meantime, build with care, and keep your eyes open.
I remember a fuel vent line broke on of the C-182's I used to own and
totally drenched both my wife and I in avgas when we were in cruise at 6,000
ft, 5 miles from an airport in Nevada. We were both absolutely covered with
fuel, it was blowing all over inside the cockpit from the passenger doorpost
area (where the rubber vent line joined the aluminum portion). I shut off
the master and hoped for the best as my wife held a rag around the area of
the doorpost that seemed to be spewing the most fuel. I remember that one
as the longest approach to a landing of my life and I'm still amazed that
something didn't spark it.
We all wish a speedy recovery to Todd and his daughter, both mentally and
physically. It's a tough time and I was heartbroken to read about it, but
very relieved to know there were no fatalities.
Bob Brown
RV7A-Flying 4 yrs
RV-10 40871 - FWF/Finishing
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 9:33 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
I can't see how a vapor sensor and indicator light would be a Darwin award
winner or a modification of significance in any way. We already install CO
vapor sensors to protect against something unseen, this is no different. If
I'm wrong, please correct me or explain why my thinking is messed up because
I just don't see anything wrong with it.
Some could argue that it's not necessary and their perspective would be
correct too. After all, we've only had one plane explode on us and we don't
even know the cause of it. Any changes could be perceived as a knee-jerk
reaction; and at this point they are.
I would think twice about shooting Halon into the tunnel though. In an
explosion it wouldn't help (except for a post-explosion fire) and I prefer
to keep that stuff outside the cabin.
Phil
From: ddddsp1@juno.com [mailto:ddddsp1@juno.com]
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:05 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
Come on Stein.......................you take all the fun out of reading
these post when you add COMMON SENSE into the mix!
Have to share this recent experience to show how even builders who seek help
from other builders can be a danger to themselves. An RV10 builder
had shared with me how he had just completed fitting his doors and was very
proud of how well they fit. He then put on the Vans stock grey door
seal..........and now the doors required several pounds of force to get them
shut. BTW he did install the new Safety latch per Vans. Next fix was to
harden the door to the rear and put a handle there so he could pull the door
in at the front and rear. After all was said and done the doors shut
............but the seal deformed the door and it was not flush to the
canopy. So he asks me how did we get our doors to fit and close so well?
When I showed him the COMMON SENSE approach to sealing doors on the RV10
without requiring any pressure to close them..............he chuckled and
said..........That will not work on my plane! LOL And we wonder how doors
come off these planes? The point I am making and what I think Stein is
making is................a knee jerk reaction and over modifying a proven
design can be more dangerous then a little COMMON SENSE.
Until that happens the list will continue to be a great source of
information and entertainment unless Stein stops it with his Devils Advocate
stuff.............lol
Dean
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Yep, that was kinda my thought. For less than $20 you get a CO sensor th
at also doubles as a fuel vapor sensor and only requires an idiot light or
other flag notification. Seems like a pretty good deal to me. I'm still u
p in the air on a plumbed in extinguisher but it's like lots of other thing
s in aviation that you never plan to use, you don't need it until you need
it. It basically follows the three most useless things to a pilot rule. I
'll probably wait with a plumbed in extinguisher but the funny thing is the
time I would most likely need it is during fly off. As always Stein has s
ome good points but if we all built "per Vans recommendations, we would all
have minimal instruments and Stein's business would drop like a stone. :D
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of Perry, Phil
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:33 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
I can't see how a vapor sensor and indicator light would be a Darwin award
winner or a modification of significance in any way. We already install CO
vapor sensors to protect against something unseen, this is no different.
If I'm wrong, please correct me or explain why my thinking is messed up be
cause I just don't see anything wrong with it.
Some could argue that it's not necessary and their perspective would be cor
rect too. After all, we've only had one plane explode on us and we don't e
ven know the cause of it. Any changes could be perceived as a knee-jerk re
action; and at this point they are.
I would think twice about shooting Halon into the tunnel though. In an exp
losion it wouldn't help (except for a post-explosion fire) and I prefer to
keep that stuff outside the cabin.
Phil
From: ddddsp1@juno.com [mailto:ddddsp1@juno.com]
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:05 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
Come on Stein.......................you take all the fun out of reading the
se post when you add COMMON SENSE into the mix!
Have to share this recent experience to show how even builders who seek hel
p from other builders can be a danger to themselves. An RV10 builder
had shared with me how he had just completed fitting his doors and was ver
y proud of how well they fit. He then put on the Vans stock grey door seal
..........and now the doors required several pounds of force to get them sh
ut. BTW he did install the new Safety latch per Vans. Next fix was to har
den the door to the rear and put a handle there so he could pull the door i
n at the front and rear. After all was said and done the doors shut ......
......but the seal deformed the door and it was not flush to the canopy.
So he asks me how did we get our doors to fit and close so well? When I s
howed him the COMMON SENSE approach to sealing doors on the RV10 without re
quiring any pressure to close them..............he chuckled and said.......
...That will not work on my plane! LOL And we wonder how doors come off t
hese planes? The point I am making and what I think Stein is making is..
..............a knee jerk reaction and over modifying a proven design can b
e more dangerous then a little COMMON SENSE.
Until that happens the list will continue to be a great source of informati
on and entertainment unless Stein stops it with his Devils Advocate stuff..
...........lol
Dean
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Message 21
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>>If you drill holes in the belly, you may prevent puddling, but
you may let IN other things too, depending on the air pressure,
and there is hot exhaust just in front of those holes, if you
do get fuel leaking out.<<
Yep, I thought about exhaust coming in. I also considered the amount of
clean air going by (lots) and that it would have to turn 90 degrees. I
don't know that it couldn't happen but we've got almost 600 hours and
nobody's been poisoned yet (although it may explain a few things, hehe).
That said, a CO detector is on my list. Or maybe a canary.
As far as the exhaust being an ignition source, the holes are about three
feet aft of the pipes. I suppose it could ignite if flame shot out with a
lot of fuel present. But I just didn't like the idea of very much fuel
gathering in the tunnel with no place to go so I'll take my chances.
Besides, I saved some weight!
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
Message 22
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I just use my emergency waterproof matches. :)
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
Perry, Phil wrote:
> Lol!
>
> Tim,
>
> Smart people use an oil lamp to illuminate that area. :)
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ricksked@cox.net <ricksked@cox.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Mon May 10 10:09:27 2010
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>
>
> Make sure your flashlight is hermetically sealed and intrinsically safe
> for use in an explosive atmosphere! :)
>
> do not archive
> ---- Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
> >
> > PS: during troubleshooting the fuel fitting, I did
> > drill in a hole on each side of the tunnel by
> > the fuel valve to use for visual/digital (finger)/sniff
> > inspection of the tunnel area near the fuel valve.
> > I didn't want a huge access hole, but something simple
> > that I could take a quick peek and sniff through.
> > With one on each side I can light it up with a
> > flashlight too.
> >
> > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> > Tim Olson wrote:
> > >
> > > I'd have to agree a bit with Stein on this. A simple light on
> > > the panel may be no big deal, and a fire suppression system
> > > isn't a bad idea if you want the added space use, weight,
> > > or that, either, but there really hasn't been a rash of this
> > > happening in either RV's nor certified planes. So it can
> > > be approached less urgently than most things. If you simply
> > > said you're going to seal the flap motor, great, but if you
> > > plug the existing holes, do you know if there is any downside?
> > > If you drill holes in the belly, you may prevent puddling, but
> > > you may let IN other things too, depending on the air pressure,
> > > and there is hot exhaust just in front of those holes, if you
> > > do get fuel leaking out. So you have to really think
> > > through everything deeply if you want to make mods.
> > >
> > > Regarding flammability, as Stein says, there's really a
> > > HEL and LEL to fuel for an explosion. Too much
> > > and it won't blow, too little and it won't blow. So
> > > just having a fuel leak doesn't mean you're GOING to
> > > have a fire. But, there are dozens of things in the
> > > plane that can cause sparks that would ignite vapors
> > > that are within the explosive range...fans on your EFIS
> > > or in the panel, or heck, even the act of opening or
> > > closing a switch. So really, you need to build the plane
> > > in a good solid way, that is trustworthy, and not settle
> > > for any amount of fuel leakage.
> > >
> > > Regarding leakage, I just went through this when I swapped
> > > in my new teflon fuel lines. I had one fitting that just
> > > did NOT want to be leak free. I'd install the line,
> > > clean and dry it, fill the tanks, and wait overnight.
> > > It would have moisture on it. Not necessarily even
> > > enough to cause a puddle, but you could feel the fuel
> > > on your fingers. I went round and round until finally
> > > just having them make a new hose for me. That fixed it...
> > > it was an AN-fitting female seat that just didn't have a
> > > perfect seat face or something. But you can't take fuel
> > > issues lightly. That's part of why the quality Andair
> > > valve and not some tractor valve. That's why I also
> > > didn't trust too much of that hard aluminum tubing.
> > > I didn't like the way I saw micro cracks on some batches
> > > of tubing when I bent it. Some of that tubing that
> > > I got from Van's was really not good stuff. I'd buy the
> > > same stuff again, or get some from ACS and it was
> > > better. But ultimately, I trust a stainless braided
> > > teflon line much better against work hardening and
> > > fatigue cracking.
> > >
> > > So, the deal with fuel vapors really might be just
> > > installing a vapor sensor if you just want to know
> > > about the vapors, or a fire suppression system in the
> > > tunnel if you really want to go hardcore on it. But
> > > certainly think through everything in detail first.
> > >
> > > Also, consider this....you smell fuel in the cockpit (i
> > > have before on other planes)...what do you do? Apparently
> > > they landed and taxiied in, and then it blew. If it were
> > > really fuel in the cockpit, I believe the "proper" thing
> > > to do would be to immediately shut off all electrics.
> > > 100% of them. If you have magnetos, you may be in luck
> > > and even be able to consider still keeping the engine
> > > running until you're on the ground. If not, you have to
> > > decide how much risk you'll take. I'd still leave my
> > > lightspeed on, because there shouldn't be any spark
> > > inside the cockpit. But, you certainly wouldn't want to
> > > leave the fuel pump on. Some engines (not lycomings)
> > > won't run without fuel pumps on. But anyway, the outcome
> > > might have been different if on short final, they pulled
> > > the mixture off, and hit the master off, and just
> > > glided down and rolled off the runway, calling the
> > > tower/trucks/or whatever. Taxiing in probably wasn't a
> > > good idea. This is not to be critical of Todd, because
> > > I'm sure he certainly was trying to do the right thing.
> > > It's just to point out that the outcome can change pretty
> > > easily based on both the situation and the reaction to it.
> > > With no master on, and just touchdown to full stop, then
> > > doors open, it could have been a whole different thing.
> > > Or, maybe switching off the master would have been the
> > > spark that blew the whole thing off. Food for thought.
> > >
> > > One tidbit that would be really interesting is this....
> > > Was the tunnel blown apart or blown out in any way?
> > > This would make it easy to tell if the explosion happened
> > > in the tunnel or in the cabin. A real wild a$s guess
> > > would be the cockpit, because if the tunnel would
> > > have blow apart, I'd think it would have caused
> > > some serious shrapnel injuries. So if it were just
> > > cockpit fumes, would a tunnel mounted vapor sensor
> > > have helped?
> > >
> > > The post accident questions can really teach a lot and
> > > make you think about it, can't it? I'm just glad Todd
> > > and his daughter are going to be OK. But maybe if nothing
> > > else comes of it, the one obvious thing can be learned by
> > > others....get on the ground, and remove all electricity,
> > > immediately...then get the door open and out of the plane.
> > >
> > > It was also interesting to note his take on Van's door latch
> > > mod. I guess I tend to agree...if you're in a panic trying
> > > to get out, or in a non-pilots perspective, see it from
> > > his daughters eyes....having one more latch to lift may
> > > not be the ideal situation. Something more automatic
> > > like Sean's latches might be far nicer in such a situation.
> > >
> > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> > > do not archive
> > >
> > >
> > > Stein Bruch wrote:
> > >> Hi Guys,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Not trying to flame anyone here or be negative, but just to play a bit
> > >> of devils advocate. There are some good ideas and methodologies being
> > >> discussed, but Id caution people against complicating the aircraft
> > >> trying to create a solution to a problem we dont even know exists.
> > >> Firstly, we dont know what happened to Todds airplane other than
> > >> pure conjecture at this point. Second, it takes a LOT more than a
> > >> little vapor or fumes or fuel smell in airplanes to cause a fire in
> > >> the cockpit. Anyone whos been around old airplanes knows about leaky
> > >> manual primers, leaky tanks, etc.. and history shows that you can have
> > >> quite a lot of fuel around before it flashes off. Of course raw fuel
> > >> being pumped into a plane and onto or near an ignition source is a
> > >> disaster waiting to happen, but in that case a vapor sensor will only
> > >> slightly give you a short notification before something happens. I
> > >> guess Id look at this this way. Its like a lot of things with these
> > >> RVs. If you concentrate your time on building the plane safety,
> > >> building it per Vans recommendations and operating it per
> > >> recommendations, the likelyhood of failures is very low. There are
> > >> many thousands of RVs flying and this is the first time Im aware of
> > >> one that burst into flames on the ground (there may be and probably
> > >> are others), but even if that is the case Ill bet many can be traced
> > >> to a root cause other than spontaneous combustion. We know Doors will
> > >> come off if not latched/built properly. We know nosewheels will fall
> > >> off if not installed properly. This plane was the only airworthy
> > >> example of an RV-10 with a Vesta V8 installation so there are a LOT of
> > >> variables to take into consideration other than treating it like a
> > >> stock RV10.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, Im not advocating that you do nothing and in fact innovation
> > >> is a good thing. Id just caution the generalized design of yet
> > >> another system to install in the airplane that at best may give you
> > >> more peace of mind than actual safety. If there were a noted problem
> > >> that is verified, then thats a different story. But, in this case we
> > >> dont yet even know what the cause of the problem wasfor all we know
> > >> a hose/fuel line may have just come off and been pouring fuel into
> > >> the plane. In that case not much would have changed even with a new
> > >> system to monitor it. Sealing up the flap motor is of little use
> > >> (IMHO) because you still have a plane loaded with avionics (fans,
> > >> relays, switches, etc..) that all create minute sparks or ignition
> > >> sources. The plane itself is full of static electricity, so on and so
> > >> forth. Youd need to wear ESD clothing, EST bracelets grounded to the
> > >> airplane, explosion proof fans in all the avionics, sealed switches
> > >> that dont have any sparks, etc.. which is just not practical.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> In the end Its like I said, Im just playing devils advocate a little
> > >> bit. I would however recommend we wait and see what the problem was
> > >> before we design systems around it.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> My 2 cents as usual!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >>
> > >> Stein
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Danny
> Riggs
> > >> *Sent:* Monday, May 10, 2010 8:53 AM
> > >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> > >> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote
> > >> sensor would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with
> > >> remote for about $155.
> > >>
> > >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> From: rvbuilder@sausen.net
> > >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> > >> Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:03:31 -0500
> > >> Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >> http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> also
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Michael
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *David
> > >> McNeill
> > >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM
> > >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> > >> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from
> > >> Spruce. The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city
> > >> ; I believe they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays
> > >> over the engine, and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add
> > >> a line to the tunnel. cost of the system was about $250. I installed
> > >> this in the 10 because it was an option on the Glastar I built and it
> > >> seemed like a good idea on the 10. I don't like the thought of
> > >> burning. I have pictures of the install and have posted them in the
> > >> past . I would include one now but they are on another computer.
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >> *From:* Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
> > >>
> > >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > >>
> > >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:29 PM
> > >>
> > >> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Good idea! Any suggestions about where to get line and
> fittings for
> > >> this?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> From: dlm46007@cox.net <mailto:dlm46007@cox.net>
> > >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >> Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 19:53:05 -0700
> > >>
> > >> The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the
> > >> components of the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap motor
> > >> was the Vans motor.I am going to plumb a shot of Halon to the
> > >> tunnel. Also always run a good test when cleaning the fuel filter;
> > >> use fuel lube on the fittings.
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >> *From:* Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
> > >>
> > >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > >>
> > >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:20 PM
> > >>
> > >> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The Aeroflow
> > >> and Andair pumps are sealed by the looks of them.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> From: dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com
> > >> <mailto:dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
> > >> Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 07:57:50 -0700
> > >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > >>
> > >> The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.
> > >>
> > >> I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the
> > >> spar so at least a small leak wouldn't puddle.
> > >>
> > >> Dave Saylor
> > >> AirCrafters LLC
> > >> 140 Aviation Way
> > >> Watsonville, CA 95076
> > >> 831-722-9141 Shop
> > >> 831-750-0284 Cell
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil
> > >> <Phil.Perry@netapp.com <mailto:Phil.Perry@netapp.com>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> <Phil.Perry@netapp.com <mailto:Phil.Perry@netapp.com>>
> > >>
> > >> I've been watching that too... Sounds like he's burned
> but okay.
> > >>
> > >> Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think
> > >> through a
> > >> couple of topics.
> > >>
> > >> Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are
> explosion
> > >> resistant? If not, they probably should be since there are
> > >> several fuel
> > >> lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical
> > >> items.
> > >>
> > >> I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I
> > >> think the
> > >> RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should
> > >> immediately
> > >> mean no flaps and no boost pump.
> > >>
> > >> For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either.
> > >> Just
> > >> thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the
> group.
> > >>
> > >> Phil
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@myrv10.com
> <mailto:Tim@myrv10.com>]
> > >> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 10:29 PM
> > >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > >> Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >> <mailto:Tim@myrv10.com>>
> > >>
> > >> Just caught this on VAF...
> > >> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57715
> > >>
> > >> Would be nice to hear that he's really ok, if anyone
> > >> knows how bad off they were.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> > >> do not archive
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ==========
> > >> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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> ~,gM4Gqz.'8E]t.+-fZ+`axr^jzZ(j|n)b'!j'+ry'C
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> ,x(ZP!jrrj|-&j',r5hum
> 'ojj+E]t.+-08IaT1
> jgrz{Zi^&lZ+ky+k&j',r+k&j',rhB{ky.+jY^.+-i0fr((nbxm-&j',rr&*''k{w/tml
Message 23
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That'll do the job just fine.
Not to mention it's a bit lighter so you can carry some along!
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@MyRV10.com]
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
I just use my emergency waterproof matches. :)
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
Perry, Phil wrote:
> Lol!
>
> Tim,
>
> Smart people use an oil lamp to illuminate that area. :)
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ricksked@cox.net <ricksked@cox.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Mon May 10 10:09:27 2010
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>
>
> Make sure your flashlight is hermetically sealed and intrinsically safe
> for use in an explosive atmosphere! :)
>
> do not archive
> ---- Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
> >
> > PS: during troubleshooting the fuel fitting, I did
> > drill in a hole on each side of the tunnel by
> > the fuel valve to use for visual/digital (finger)/sniff
> > inspection of the tunnel area near the fuel valve.
> > I didn't want a huge access hole, but something simple
> > that I could take a quick peek and sniff through.
> > With one on each side I can light it up with a
> > flashlight too.
> >
> > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> > Tim Olson wrote:
> > >
> > > I'd have to agree a bit with Stein on this. A simple light on
> > > the panel may be no big deal, and a fire suppression system
> > > isn't a bad idea if you want the added space use, weight,
> > > or that, either, but there really hasn't been a rash of this
> > > happening in either RV's nor certified planes. So it can
> > > be approached less urgently than most things. If you simply
> > > said you're going to seal the flap motor, great, but if you
> > > plug the existing holes, do you know if there is any downside?
> > > If you drill holes in the belly, you may prevent puddling, but
> > > you may let IN other things too, depending on the air pressure,
> > > and there is hot exhaust just in front of those holes, if you
> > > do get fuel leaking out. So you have to really think
> > > through everything deeply if you want to make mods.
> > >
> > > Regarding flammability, as Stein says, there's really a
> > > HEL and LEL to fuel for an explosion. Too much
> > > and it won't blow, too little and it won't blow. So
> > > just having a fuel leak doesn't mean you're GOING to
> > > have a fire. But, there are dozens of things in the
> > > plane that can cause sparks that would ignite vapors
> > > that are within the explosive range...fans on your EFIS
> > > or in the panel, or heck, even the act of opening or
> > > closing a switch. So really, you need to build the plane
> > > in a good solid way, that is trustworthy, and not settle
> > > for any amount of fuel leakage.
> > >
> > > Regarding leakage, I just went through this when I swapped
> > > in my new teflon fuel lines. I had one fitting that just
> > > did NOT want to be leak free. I'd install the line,
> > > clean and dry it, fill the tanks, and wait overnight.
> > > It would have moisture on it. Not necessarily even
> > > enough to cause a puddle, but you could feel the fuel
> > > on your fingers. I went round and round until finally
> > > just having them make a new hose for me. That fixed it...
> > > it was an AN-fitting female seat that just didn't have a
> > > perfect seat face or something. But you can't take fuel
> > > issues lightly. That's part of why the quality Andair
> > > valve and not some tractor valve. That's why I also
> > > didn't trust too much of that hard aluminum tubing.
> > > I didn't like the way I saw micro cracks on some batches
> > > of tubing when I bent it. Some of that tubing that
> > > I got from Van's was really not good stuff. I'd buy the
> > > same stuff again, or get some from ACS and it was
> > > better. But ultimately, I trust a stainless braided
> > > teflon line much better against work hardening and
> > > fatigue cracking.
> > >
> > > So, the deal with fuel vapors really might be just
> > > installing a vapor sensor if you just want to know
> > > about the vapors, or a fire suppression system in the
> > > tunnel if you really want to go hardcore on it. But
> > > certainly think through everything in detail first.
> > >
> > > Also, consider this....you smell fuel in the cockpit (i
> > > have before on other planes)...what do you do? Apparently
> > > they landed and taxiied in, and then it blew. If it were
> > > really fuel in the cockpit, I believe the "proper" thing
> > > to do would be to immediately shut off all electrics.
> > > 100% of them. If you have magnetos, you may be in luck
> > > and even be able to consider still keeping the engine
> > > running until you're on the ground. If not, you have to
> > > decide how much risk you'll take. I'd still leave my
> > > lightspeed on, because there shouldn't be any spark
> > > inside the cockpit. But, you certainly wouldn't want to
> > > leave the fuel pump on. Some engines (not lycomings)
> > > won't run without fuel pumps on. But anyway, the outcome
> > > might have been different if on short final, they pulled
> > > the mixture off, and hit the master off, and just
> > > glided down and rolled off the runway, calling the
> > > tower/trucks/or whatever. Taxiing in probably wasn't a
> > > good idea. This is not to be critical of Todd, because
> > > I'm sure he certainly was trying to do the right thing.
> > > It's just to point out that the outcome can change pretty
> > > easily based on both the situation and the reaction to it.
> > > With no master on, and just touchdown to full stop, then
> > > doors open, it could have been a whole different thing.
> > > Or, maybe switching off the master would have been the
> > > spark that blew the whole thing off. Food for thought.
> > >
> > > One tidbit that would be really interesting is this....
> > > Was the tunnel blown apart or blown out in any way?
> > > This would make it easy to tell if the explosion happened
> > > in the tunnel or in the cabin. A real wild a$s guess
> > > would be the cockpit, because if the tunnel would
> > > have blow apart, I'd think it would have caused
> > > some serious shrapnel injuries. So if it were just
> > > cockpit fumes, would a tunnel mounted vapor sensor
> > > have helped?
> > >
> > > The post accident questions can really teach a lot and
> > > make you think about it, can't it? I'm just glad Todd
> > > and his daughter are going to be OK. But maybe if nothing
> > > else comes of it, the one obvious thing can be learned by
> > > others....get on the ground, and remove all electricity,
> > > immediately...then get the door open and out of the plane.
> > >
> > > It was also interesting to note his take on Van's door latch
> > > mod. I guess I tend to agree...if you're in a panic trying
> > > to get out, or in a non-pilots perspective, see it from
> > > his daughters eyes....having one more latch to lift may
> > > not be the ideal situation. Something more automatic
> > > like Sean's latches might be far nicer in such a situation.
> > >
> > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> > > do not archive
> > >
> > >
> > > Stein Bruch wrote:
> > >> Hi Guys,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Not trying to flame anyone here or be negative, but just to play a bit
> > >> of devils advocate. There are some good ideas and methodologies being
> > >> discussed, but Id caution people against complicating the aircraft
> > >> trying to create a solution to a problem we dont even know exists.
> > >> Firstly, we dont know what happened to Todds airplane other than
> > >> pure conjecture at this point. Second, it takes a LOT more than a
> > >> little vapor or fumes or fuel smell in airplanes to cause a fire in
> > >> the cockpit. Anyone whos been around old airplanes knows about leaky
> > >> manual primers, leaky tanks, etc.. and history shows that you can have
> > >> quite a lot of fuel around before it flashes off. Of course raw fuel
> > >> being pumped into a plane and onto or near an ignition source is a
> > >> disaster waiting to happen, but in that case a vapor sensor will only
> > >> slightly give you a short notification before something happens. I
> > >> guess Id look at this this way. Its like a lot of things with these
> > >> RVs. If you concentrate your time on building the plane safety,
> > >> building it per Vans recommendations and operating it per
> > >> recommendations, the likelyhood of failures is very low. There are
> > >> many thousands of RVs flying and this is the first time Im aware of
> > >> one that burst into flames on the ground (there may be and probably
> > >> are others), but even if that is the case Ill bet many can be traced
> > >> to a root cause other than spontaneous combustion. We know Doors will
> > >> come off if not latched/built properly. We know nosewheels will fall
> > >> off if not installed properly. This plane was the only airworthy
> > >> example of an RV-10 with a Vesta V8 installation so there are a LOT of
> > >> variables to take into consideration other than treating it like a
> > >> stock RV10.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, Im not advocating that you do nothing and in fact innovation
> > >> is a good thing. Id just caution the generalized design of yet
> > >> another system to install in the airplane that at best may give you
> > >> more peace of mind than actual safety. If there were a noted problem
> > >> that is verified, then thats a different story. But, in this case we
> > >> dont yet even know what the cause of the problem wasfor all we know
> > >> a hose/fuel line may have just come off and been pouring fuel into
> > >> the plane. In that case not much would have changed even with a new
> > >> system to monitor it. Sealing up the flap motor is of little use
> > >> (IMHO) because you still have a plane loaded with avionics (fans,
> > >> relays, switches, etc..) that all create minute sparks or ignition
> > >> sources. The plane itself is full of static electricity, so on and so
> > >> forth. Youd need to wear ESD clothing, EST bracelets grounded to the
> > >> airplane, explosion proof fans in all the avionics, sealed switches
> > >> that dont have any sparks, etc.. which is just not practical.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> In the end Its like I said, Im just playing devils advocate a little
> > >> bit. I would however recommend we wait and see what the problem was
> > >> before we design systems around it.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> My 2 cents as usual!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >>
> > >> Stein
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Danny
> Riggs
> > >> *Sent:* Monday, May 10, 2010 8:53 AM
> > >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> > >> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote
> > >> sensor would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with
> > >> remote for about $155.
> > >>
> > >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> From: rvbuilder@sausen.net
> > >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> > >> Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:03:31 -0500
> > >> Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >> http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> also
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Michael
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *David
> > >> McNeill
> > >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM
> > >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> > >> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from
> > >> Spruce. The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city
> > >> ; I believe they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays
> > >> over the engine, and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add
> > >> a line to the tunnel. cost of the system was about $250. I installed
> > >> this in the 10 because it was an option on the Glastar I built and it
> > >> seemed like a good idea on the 10. I don't like the thought of
> > >> burning. I have pictures of the install and have posted them in the
> > >> past . I would include one now but they are on another computer.
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >> *From:* Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
> > >>
> > >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > >>
> > >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:29 PM
> > >>
> > >> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Good idea! Any suggestions about where to get line and
> fittings for
> > >> this?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> From: dlm46007@cox.net <mailto:dlm46007@cox.net>
> > >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >> Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 19:53:05 -0700
> > >>
> > >> The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the
> > >> components of the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap motor
> > >> was the Vans motor.I am going to plumb a shot of Halon to the
> > >> tunnel. Also always run a good test when cleaning the fuel filter;
> > >> use fuel lube on the fittings.
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >> *From:* Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
> > >>
> > >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > >>
> > >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:20 PM
> > >>
> > >> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The Aeroflow
> > >> and Andair pumps are sealed by the looks of them.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> From: dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com
> > >> <mailto:dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
> > >> Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 07:57:50 -0700
> > >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > >>
> > >> The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.
> > >>
> > >> I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the
> > >> spar so at least a small leak wouldn't puddle.
> > >>
> > >> Dave Saylor
> > >> AirCrafters LLC
> > >> 140 Aviation Way
> > >> Watsonville, CA 95076
> > >> 831-722-9141 Shop
> > >> 831-750-0284 Cell
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil
> > >> <Phil.Perry@netapp.com <mailto:Phil.Perry@netapp.com>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> <Phil.Perry@netapp.com <mailto:Phil.Perry@netapp.com>>
> > >>
> > >> I've been watching that too... Sounds like he's burned
> but okay.
> > >>
> > >> Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think
> > >> through a
> > >> couple of topics.
> > >>
> > >> Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are
> explosion
> > >> resistant? If not, they probably should be since there are
> > >> several fuel
> > >> lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical
> > >> items.
> > >>
> > >> I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I
> > >> think the
> > >> RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should
> > >> immediately
> > >> mean no flaps and no boost pump.
> > >>
> > >> For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either.
> > >> Just
> > >> thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the
> group.
> > >>
> > >> Phil
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@myrv10.com
> <mailto:Tim@myrv10.com>]
> > >> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 10:29 PM
> > >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > >> Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >> <mailto:Tim@myrv10.com>>
> > >>
> > >> Just caught this on VAF...
> > >> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57715
> > >>
> > >> Would be nice to hear that he's really ok, if anyone
> > >> knows how bad off they were.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> > >> do not archive
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ==========
> > >> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> > >> ==========
> > >> http://forums.matronics.com
> > >> ==========
> > >> le, List Admin.
> > >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> > >> ==========
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigatwww.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
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> from
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> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
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> > >>
> > >> **
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> > >> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
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> >
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>
>
>
>
>
> ~,gM4Gqz.'8E]t.+-fZ+`axr^jzZ(j|n)b'!j'+ry'C
> {
> ,x(ZP!jrrj|
&j',r5hum
> 'ojj+E]t.+-08IaT1
> jgrz{Zi^&lZ+ky+k&j',r+k&j',rhB{ky.+jY^.+-i0fr((nbxm
&j',rr&*''k{w/tml
Message 24
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Todd just confirmed that he was operating the flap motor at the time it blew.
Here's his text...
=======================
Wow what a great discussion on Matronics. I told Dave that I thought I was raising
the flaps when it blew. My daughter said I was turning it off. Either case
the smartest thing to do would have been to open the doors but I didn't know
the plane was so packed with fumes. I can tell you if/when I build another RV
there will be no fuel lines in the cockpit. I woke up at 2 in the morning thinking
about a much better lever free fuel system. If you have time read the Matronics
thread it is very good.
=======================
-----Original Message-----
From: Perry, Phil
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 3:40 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
That'll do the job just fine.
Not to mention it's a bit lighter so you can carry some along!
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@MyRV10.com]
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
I just use my emergency waterproof matches. :)
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
Perry, Phil wrote:
> Lol!
>
> Tim,
>
> Smart people use an oil lamp to illuminate that area. :)
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ricksked@cox.net <ricksked@cox.net>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Mon May 10 10:09:27 2010
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
>
>
> Make sure your flashlight is hermetically sealed and intrinsically safe
> for use in an explosive atmosphere! :)
>
> do not archive
> ---- Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
> >
> > PS: during troubleshooting the fuel fitting, I did
> > drill in a hole on each side of the tunnel by
> > the fuel valve to use for visual/digital (finger)/sniff
> > inspection of the tunnel area near the fuel valve.
> > I didn't want a huge access hole, but something simple
> > that I could take a quick peek and sniff through.
> > With one on each side I can light it up with a
> > flashlight too.
> >
> > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> > Tim Olson wrote:
> > >
> > > I'd have to agree a bit with Stein on this. A simple light on
> > > the panel may be no big deal, and a fire suppression system
> > > isn't a bad idea if you want the added space use, weight,
> > > or that, either, but there really hasn't been a rash of this
> > > happening in either RV's nor certified planes. So it can
> > > be approached less urgently than most things. If you simply
> > > said you're going to seal the flap motor, great, but if you
> > > plug the existing holes, do you know if there is any downside?
> > > If you drill holes in the belly, you may prevent puddling, but
> > > you may let IN other things too, depending on the air pressure,
> > > and there is hot exhaust just in front of those holes, if you
> > > do get fuel leaking out. So you have to really think
> > > through everything deeply if you want to make mods.
> > >
> > > Regarding flammability, as Stein says, there's really a
> > > HEL and LEL to fuel for an explosion. Too much
> > > and it won't blow, too little and it won't blow. So
> > > just having a fuel leak doesn't mean you're GOING to
> > > have a fire. But, there are dozens of things in the
> > > plane that can cause sparks that would ignite vapors
> > > that are within the explosive range...fans on your EFIS
> > > or in the panel, or heck, even the act of opening or
> > > closing a switch. So really, you need to build the plane
> > > in a good solid way, that is trustworthy, and not settle
> > > for any amount of fuel leakage.
> > >
> > > Regarding leakage, I just went through this when I swapped
> > > in my new teflon fuel lines. I had one fitting that just
> > > did NOT want to be leak free. I'd install the line,
> > > clean and dry it, fill the tanks, and wait overnight.
> > > It would have moisture on it. Not necessarily even
> > > enough to cause a puddle, but you could feel the fuel
> > > on your fingers. I went round and round until finally
> > > just having them make a new hose for me. That fixed it...
> > > it was an AN-fitting female seat that just didn't have a
> > > perfect seat face or something. But you can't take fuel
> > > issues lightly. That's part of why the quality Andair
> > > valve and not some tractor valve. That's why I also
> > > didn't trust too much of that hard aluminum tubing.
> > > I didn't like the way I saw micro cracks on some batches
> > > of tubing when I bent it. Some of that tubing that
> > > I got from Van's was really not good stuff. I'd buy the
> > > same stuff again, or get some from ACS and it was
> > > better. But ultimately, I trust a stainless braided
> > > teflon line much better against work hardening and
> > > fatigue cracking.
> > >
> > > So, the deal with fuel vapors really might be just
> > > installing a vapor sensor if you just want to know
> > > about the vapors, or a fire suppression system in the
> > > tunnel if you really want to go hardcore on it. But
> > > certainly think through everything in detail first.
> > >
> > > Also, consider this....you smell fuel in the cockpit (i
> > > have before on other planes)...what do you do? Apparently
> > > they landed and taxiied in, and then it blew. If it were
> > > really fuel in the cockpit, I believe the "proper" thing
> > > to do would be to immediately shut off all electrics.
> > > 100% of them. If you have magnetos, you may be in luck
> > > and even be able to consider still keeping the engine
> > > running until you're on the ground. If not, you have to
> > > decide how much risk you'll take. I'd still leave my
> > > lightspeed on, because there shouldn't be any spark
> > > inside the cockpit. But, you certainly wouldn't want to
> > > leave the fuel pump on. Some engines (not lycomings)
> > > won't run without fuel pumps on. But anyway, the outcome
> > > might have been different if on short final, they pulled
> > > the mixture off, and hit the master off, and just
> > > glided down and rolled off the runway, calling the
> > > tower/trucks/or whatever. Taxiing in probably wasn't a
> > > good idea. This is not to be critical of Todd, because
> > > I'm sure he certainly was trying to do the right thing.
> > > It's just to point out that the outcome can change pretty
> > > easily based on both the situation and the reaction to it.
> > > With no master on, and just touchdown to full stop, then
> > > doors open, it could have been a whole different thing.
> > > Or, maybe switching off the master would have been the
> > > spark that blew the whole thing off. Food for thought.
> > >
> > > One tidbit that would be really interesting is this....
> > > Was the tunnel blown apart or blown out in any way?
> > > This would make it easy to tell if the explosion happened
> > > in the tunnel or in the cabin. A real wild a$s guess
> > > would be the cockpit, because if the tunnel would
> > > have blow apart, I'd think it would have caused
> > > some serious shrapnel injuries. So if it were just
> > > cockpit fumes, would a tunnel mounted vapor sensor
> > > have helped?
> > >
> > > The post accident questions can really teach a lot and
> > > make you think about it, can't it? I'm just glad Todd
> > > and his daughter are going to be OK. But maybe if nothing
> > > else comes of it, the one obvious thing can be learned by
> > > others....get on the ground, and remove all electricity,
> > > immediately...then get the door open and out of the plane.
> > >
> > > It was also interesting to note his take on Van's door latch
> > > mod. I guess I tend to agree...if you're in a panic trying
> > > to get out, or in a non-pilots perspective, see it from
> > > his daughters eyes....having one more latch to lift may
> > > not be the ideal situation. Something more automatic
> > > like Sean's latches might be far nicer in such a situation.
> > >
> > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> > > do not archive
> > >
> > >
> > > Stein Bruch wrote:
> > >> Hi Guys,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Not trying to flame anyone here or be negative, but just to play a bit
> > >> of devils advocate. There are some good ideas and methodologies being
> > >> discussed, but Id caution people against complicating the aircraft
> > >> trying to create a solution to a problem we dont even know exists.
> > >> Firstly, we dont know what happened to Todds airplane other than
> > >> pure conjecture at this point. Second, it takes a LOT more than a
> > >> little vapor or fumes or fuel smell in airplanes to cause a fire in
> > >> the cockpit. Anyone whos been around old airplanes knows about leaky
> > >> manual primers, leaky tanks, etc.. and history shows that you can have
> > >> quite a lot of fuel around before it flashes off. Of course raw fuel
> > >> being pumped into a plane and onto or near an ignition source is a
> > >> disaster waiting to happen, but in that case a vapor sensor will only
> > >> slightly give you a short notification before something happens. I
> > >> guess Id look at this this way. Its like a lot of things with these
> > >> RVs. If you concentrate your time on building the plane safety,
> > >> building it per Vans recommendations and operating it per
> > >> recommendations, the likelyhood of failures is very low. There are
> > >> many thousands of RVs flying and this is the first time Im aware of
> > >> one that burst into flames on the ground (there may be and probably
> > >> are others), but even if that is the case Ill bet many can be traced
> > >> to a root cause other than spontaneous combustion. We know Doors will
> > >> come off if not latched/built properly. We know nosewheels will fall
> > >> off if not installed properly. This plane was the only airworthy
> > >> example of an RV-10 with a Vesta V8 installation so there are a LOT of
> > >> variables to take into consideration other than treating it like a
> > >> stock RV10.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, Im not advocating that you do nothing and in fact innovation
> > >> is a good thing. Id just caution the generalized design of yet
> > >> another system to install in the airplane that at best may give you
> > >> more peace of mind than actual safety. If there were a noted problem
> > >> that is verified, then thats a different story. But, in this case we
> > >> dont yet even know what the cause of the problem wasfor all we know
> > >> a hose/fuel line may have just come off and been pouring fuel into
> > >> the plane. In that case not much would have changed even with a new
> > >> system to monitor it. Sealing up the flap motor is of little use
> > >> (IMHO) because you still have a plane loaded with avionics (fans,
> > >> relays, switches, etc..) that all create minute sparks or ignition
> > >> sources. The plane itself is full of static electricity, so on and so
> > >> forth. Youd need to wear ESD clothing, EST bracelets grounded to the
> > >> airplane, explosion proof fans in all the avionics, sealed switches
> > >> that dont have any sparks, etc.. which is just not practical.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> In the end Its like I said, Im just playing devils advocate a little
> > >> bit. I would however recommend we wait and see what the problem was
> > >> before we design systems around it.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> My 2 cents as usual!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >>
> > >> Stein
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Danny
> Riggs
> > >> *Sent:* Monday, May 10, 2010 8:53 AM
> > >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> > >> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Google "gas vapor sensors" and you will get numerous sites. A remote
> > >> sensor would be necessary for the tunnel. West Marine has one with
> > >> remote for about $155.
> > >>
> > >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> From: rvbuilder@sausen.net
> > >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> > >> Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:03:31 -0500
> > >> Subject: RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >> http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> also
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> http://www.safecraft.com/aviation.asp
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Michael
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *David
> > >> McNeill
> > >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:26 PM
> > >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> > >> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I will use standard AN fittings and aluminium tubing available from
> > >> Spruce. The fire bottle is available from Stroud Fire in oklahoma city
> > >> ; I believe they have a website. mine is a 15 pound bottle and sprays
> > >> over the engine, and between the firewall and aft baffling; I will add
> > >> a line to the tunnel. cost of the system was about $250. I installed
> > >> this in the 10 because it was an option on the Glastar I built and it
> > >> seemed like a good idea on the 10. I don't like the thought of
> > >> burning. I have pictures of the install and have posted them in the
> > >> past . I would include one now but they are on another computer.
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >> *From:* Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
> > >>
> > >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > >>
> > >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:29 PM
> > >>
> > >> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Good idea! Any suggestions about where to get line and
> fittings for
> > >> this?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> From: dlm46007@cox.net <mailto:dlm46007@cox.net>
> > >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >> Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 19:53:05 -0700
> > >>
> > >> The engine was (?) an automotive V8 so it is unknown what the
> > >> components of the tunnel are. One could expect that the flap motor
> > >> was the Vans motor.I am going to plumb a shot of Halon to the
> > >> tunnel. Also always run a good test when cleaning the fuel filter;
> > >> use fuel lube on the fittings.
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>
> > >> *From:* Danny Riggs <mailto:jdriggs49@msn.com>
> > >>
> > >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > >>
> > >> *Sent:* Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:20 PM
> > >>
> > >> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The flap motor has four holes venting the inside. The Aeroflow
> > >> and Andair pumps are sealed by the looks of them.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> From: dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com
> > >> <mailto:dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
> > >> Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 07:57:50 -0700
> > >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > >>
> > >> The latest on VAF says they should both be OK.
> > >>
> > >> I put a couple drain holes in the tunnel just forward of the
> > >> spar so at least a small leak wouldn't puddle.
> > >>
> > >> Dave Saylor
> > >> AirCrafters LLC
> > >> 140 Aviation Way
> > >> Watsonville, CA 95076
> > >> 831-722-9141 Shop
> > >> 831-750-0284 Cell
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Perry, Phil
> > >> <Phil.Perry@netapp.com <mailto:Phil.Perry@netapp.com>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> <Phil.Perry@netapp.com <mailto:Phil.Perry@netapp.com>>
> > >>
> > >> I've been watching that too... Sounds like he's burned
> but okay.
> > >>
> > >> Not trying to speculate, but this event caused me to think
> > >> through a
> > >> couple of topics.
> > >>
> > >> Anyone know if the fuel boost pump and flap motors are
> explosion
> > >> resistant? If not, they probably should be since there are
> > >> several fuel
> > >> lines that share the same enclosed airspace as both electrical
> > >> items.
> > >>
> > >> I was thinking this through earlier this morning and now I
> > >> think the
> > >> RV-10 POH should say any smell of fuel in the cabin should
> > >> immediately
> > >> mean no flaps and no boost pump.
> > >>
> > >> For the record, I don't even know if he was operating either.
> > >> Just
> > >> thinking through a gotcha scenario for the benefit of the
> group.
> > >>
> > >> Phil
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Tim Olson [mailto:Tim@myrv10.com
> <mailto:Tim@myrv10.com>]
> > >> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 10:29 PM
> > >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > >> Subject: RV10-List: RV-10 Fire
> > >>
> > >> <mailto:Tim@myrv10.com>>
> > >>
> > >> Just caught this on VAF...
> > >> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57715
> > >>
> > >> Would be nice to hear that he's really ok, if anyone
> > >> knows how bad off they were.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> > >> do not archive
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ==========
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Message 25
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very interesting thread and obviously concern for all of us that fly -10. What
about a hole in the tunnel and then have a backward fitting like a fuel vent
that would 'venturi' out any fumes. it would remove any significant fuel leak
and vapors as well. sure glad that father and daughter ended up with minimal
medical problems compared to what could have happened. larry
--------
Larry and Gayle N104LG
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297329#297329
Message 26
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very interesting thread and obviously concern for all of us that fly -10. What
about a hole in the tunnel and then have a backward fitting like a fuel vent
that would 'venturi' out any fumes. it would remove any significant fuel leak
and vapors as well. sure glad that father and daughter ended up with minimal
medical problems compared to what could have happened. larry
--------
Larry and Gayle N104LG
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=297330#297330
Message 27
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| Subject: | RV-10 Fly-In at X35 |
Sorry to those that couldn't make it because of the short notice and
because it was on a weekday, but we had a pretty good turnout. It was a
perfect day for getting some Florida sun without being too hot to bear.
Thanks to those that came and I hope we can do it again.
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