---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/01/10: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:51 AM - rivets... (Tony Woods) 2. 02:33 AM - Re: rivets... (Jack Phillips) 3. 04:53 AM - Re: rivets... (Jesse Saint) 4. 05:03 AM - Re: rivets... (tsts4) 5. 05:46 AM - Re: rivets... (rbibb@tomet.net) 6. 05:51 AM - Re: rivets... (Kelly McMullen) 7. 06:26 AM - Re: rivets... (Linn Walters) 8. 06:33 AM - Re: rivets... (Richard Martin) 9. 09:13 AM - Re: rivets... (Bob Turner) 10. 09:50 AM - Re: rivets... (rwendell@hydro-splash.com) 11. 10:54 AM - Re: New taxi procedures at controlled airports (Chuck Weyant) 12. 11:11 AM - Re: New taxi procedures at controlled airports (Sean Stephens) 13. 11:35 AM - Re: New taxi procedures at controlled airports (rwendell@hydro-splash.com) 14. 11:37 AM - Re: New taxi procedures at controlled airports (Bill Mauledriver Watson) 15. 12:12 PM - Re: New taxi procedures at controlled airports (Chuck Weyant) 16. 01:37 PM - Re: New taxi procedures at controlled airports (Kelly McMullen) 17. 01:37 PM - Re: New taxi procedures at controlled airports (Linn Walters) 18. 01:37 PM - Re: New taxi procedures at controlled airports (David Maib) 19. 02:34 PM - Oil Temps (bill@airflow) 20. 02:44 PM - Re: rivets... (Tony Woods) 21. 04:49 PM - audio cable near battery cable- any issues? (Pascal) 22. 05:06 PM - Re: audio cable near battery cable- any issues? (Linn Walters) 23. 05:06 PM - Test (Alan Bikle) 24. 05:06 PM - Test (Alan Bikle) 25. 05:41 PM - Re: rivets... (Tony Woods) 26. 06:02 PM - Re: rivets... (tsts4) 27. 07:09 PM - Re: rivets... (Kelly McMullen) 28. 07:23 PM - Re: rivets... (David Maib) 29. 07:44 PM - Re: rivets... (Tony Woods) 30. 09:51 PM - Re: Cowl Flaps (Nick Nafsinger) 31. 10:39 PM - Re: Re: Cowl Flaps (Tom Koelzer) 32. 11:06 PM - Re: Re: Cowl Flaps (Robin Marks) 33. 11:09 PM - Official RV10-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 34. 11:14 PM - Official RV10-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:46 AM PST US From: "Tony Woods" Subject: RV10-List: rivets... Ok. I worked out how to use the rivet squeezer, and have built my VS skeleton. So far so good. Now I=99m fixing the skin, and wanted to pause to get a few words of advice on how I rivet into areas where I can't use the squeezer. OK =93 Enter the mysterious bucking bar right? I guess I place this bucking bar against the exterior skin, a flat tungsten surface, and then reach inside the VS to use the rivet gun to hammer the protruding stub and form the head? Man, do I sound like a newbee yet? Tony ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:33:19 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: RV10-List: rivets... At this point in time, if you do not have a local EAA chapter with a Technical Counselor who can teach you, I would strongly suggest you plan a trip to Oshkosh around the end of this month and go to as many of the forums on sheet metal work as you can. You will learn a lot there, that will be invaluable as you move forward with this project. Van's gives some instruction on riveting techniques in the builders manual, and there is a lot more information available from EAA, including a recently issued book on sheetmetal work, but it's hard to teach through a book something that requires as much "feel" as riveting. Participating in a hands-on clinic at OSH is the quickest way to learn. If you are going to invest $100K + in building this airplane, the cost of a trip to OSH, even if you can only go for a day or two, is money well spent. Jack Phillips # 40610 - wings (but lately spending all my time working on my hangar) Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Woods Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 3:24 AM Subject: RV10-List: rivets... Ok. I worked out how to use the rivet squeezer, and have built my VS skeleton. So far so good. Now I'm fixing the skin, and wanted to pause to get a few words of advice on how I rivet into areas where I can't use the squeezer. OK - Enter the mysterious bucking bar right? I guess I place this bucking bar against the exterior skin, a flat tungsten surface, and then reach inside the VS to use the rivet gun to hammer the protruding stub and form the head? Man, do I sound like a newbee yet? Tony ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:57 AM PST US From: Jesse Saint Subject: Re: RV10-List: rivets... Where are you located? If you are near another RV-builder (and you can't make it to Oshkosh), then I'd suggest getting someone locally to help you (or you help them) for a day or two so you can get the hang of it. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 On Jul 1, 2010, at 3:23 AM, Tony Woods wrote: > Ok. I worked out how to use the rivet squeezer, and have built my VS skeleton. So far so good. Now I=92m fixing the skin, and wanted to pause to get a few words of advice on how I rivet into areas where I can't use the squeezer. OK ' Enter the mysterious bucking bar right? I guess I place this bucking bar against the exterior skin, a flat tungsten surface, and then reach inside the VS to use the rivet gun to hammer the protruding stub and form the head? > > Man, do I sound like a newbee yet? > > Tony > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:19 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: rivets... From: "tsts4" > I guess I place this bucking bar against the exterior skin, a flat tungsten surface, and then reach inside the VS to use the rivet gun to hammer the protruding stub and form the head Tony, For normal riveting, you would do just the opposite. Place the rivet set of the gun against the manufactured head and skin, and the bucking bar against the "tail" (the protuding stub) to form the shop head. What you describe is called back riveting and requires a special back riveting set with a spring loaded collar. In any event, practice on some scrap first. As Jack said, try and find another builder or tech counselor to give you some hands-on (riveting is not hard just takes practice) and check out these videos from EAA: http://eaa.org/video/homebuilders.html lots of good info there. Also make sure you're not using too much air pressure. I run about 35-40 psi for an AN426-3-3 to 3-5 rivet for a 3X gun. For 4-x rivets I go up to 60 psi. -------- Todd Stovall 728TT (reserved) RV-10 Empacone, Wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303238#303238 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:07 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: rivets... From: rbibb@tomet.net Its not a hard skill to acquire but I wouldn't plan on learning it on your airplane. Get some scrap Aluminum, drill soem holes, rivet until you gain confidence. Shouldn't take long to gain confidence. That's how I did it on my RV-4 years ago. Advantage of the -4 was there was lost's of scrap aluminum to play with.... > Ok. I worked out how to use the rivet squeezer, and have built my VS > skeleton. So far so good. Now Im fixing the skin, and wanted to > pause to get a few words of advice on how I rivet into areas where I > can't use the squeezer. OK Enter the mysterious bucking bar right? I > guess I place this bucking bar against the exterior skin, a flat tungsten > surface, and then reach inside the VS to use the rivet gun to hammer the > protruding stub and form the head? > > > Man, do I sound like a newbee yet? > > > Tony > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:46 AM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV10-List: rivets... You have already received some good suggestions. If you give in your signature your airport or other general location, you might be surprised how many RV's are under construction, with builders ready to help each other. Get some scrap aluminum, and take a couple pieces. Start drilling and dimpling them, so you can practice riveting. You can just put them in a vice to hold them. If you don't already have a back rivet plate and back rivet set for your rivet gun, you will want them. Like a squeezer, wherever you can back rivet, you will want to do so, because it gives such nice results with low risk of marks and "smileys". However you plan to rivet two pieces together, try that method out on your scrap pieces first, until you are happy with how the practice pieces come out. That is how you test your air pressure, your technique for holding the specific bucking bar, how long a burst from the gun you need, etc. Kelly KCHD EAA Tech Counselor kit 40866 On 7/1/2010 12:23 AM, Tony Woods wrote: > > Ok. I worked out how to use the rivet squeezer, and have built my VS > skeleton. So far so good. Now Im fixing the skin, and wanted to > pause to get a few words of advice on how I rivet into areas where I > can't use the squeezer. OK Enter the mysterious bucking bar right? > I guess I place this bucking bar against the exterior skin, a flat > tungsten surface, and then reach inside the VS to use the rivet gun to > hammer the protruding stub and form the head? > > Man, do I sound like a newbee yet? > > Tony > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:01 AM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: rivets... The suggestion to find an EAA chapter/members is the best guidance you'll get at this point ..... even if you have to drive a ways. You'll get the benefits of a tech counselor and a flight adviser if they have one. And members love to help each other. The second best 'learning tool' is Vans toolbox. Especially if you don't have any riveting experience. I bought one (and put it together) even though I'd done hard rivets years ago. I actually use mine to carry tools in!! Linn do not archive rbibb@tomet.net wrote: > > Its not a hard skill to acquire but I wouldn't plan on learning it on your > airplane. Get some scrap Aluminum, drill soem holes, rivet until you gain > confidence. Shouldn't take long to gain confidence. That's how I did it > on my RV-4 years ago. Advantage of the -4 was there was lost's of scrap > aluminum to play with.... > > >> Ok. I worked out how to use the rivet squeezer, and have built my VS >> skeleton. So far so good. Now IEUR^(TM)m fixing the skin, and wanted to >> pause to get a few words of advice on how I rivet into areas where I >> can't use the squeezer. OK EUR" Enter the mysterious bucking bar right? I >> guess I place this bucking bar against the exterior skin, a flat tungsten >> surface, and then reach inside the VS to use the rivet gun to hammer the >> protruding stub and form the head? >> >> >> >> Man, do I sound like a newbee yet? >> >> >> >> Tony >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: rivets... From: Richard Martin Tony, You have the general idea, however you need a little more education. You are describing the back riviting method that works well on a large flat surface such as a table. I would suggest that you learn the air force method of riviting for wat you want to do. I will try to describe briefly what to do. The rivit gun with a flat driver should be used on the rivit head outside of the exterior skin and the bucking bar inside. Start by placing the bar alongside of the rivit contacting the skin. You begin by applying very light tings with the driver to the rivit head. This will pull the skins tight. Next give the rivit a very short hit which will expand the rivit a few thousants and hold the sheets together. Next, give the rivit gun final hit that will finish the rivit and create a buck tail. The buck tail should be approximately 0ne and a half times the diameter of the rivit. Note: a bargain basement rivit gun will usually produce lousy jobs. There is no cheap way out. I would suggest either Avery or Cleveland for rivit tools. If you wish to discuss this, call me @ 920 619 6968 Dick Martin RV8 N233M the fast one, 1, 2010 at 2:23 AM, Tony Woods wrote: > Ok. I worked out how to use the rivet squeezer, and have built my VS > skeleton. So far so good. Now I=92m fixing the skin, and wanted to pau se to > get a few words of advice on how I rivet into areas where I can't use th e > squeezer. OK ' Enter the mysterious bucking bar right? I guess I plac e > this bucking bar against the exterior skin, a flat tungsten surface, and > then reach inside the VS to use the rivet gun to hammer the protruding st ub > and form the head? > > > Man, do I sound like a newbee yet? > > > Tony > > * > =========== > =========== =========== =========== > > * > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:48 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: rivets... From: "Bob Turner" Since this is basic instruction: It's obvious once you learn the skill; Dick (above) didn't explicitly say it, but you need to move the bucking bar to the rivet tail after the first light tap to set the skins together. Hold the bar firmly and square to the rivet tail; but apply more pressure to the gun than the bucking bar, or else the rivet will back out. Also, never pull the gun away until after you've released the trigger. I'm sure we've all learned that the hard way! Finally, back-riveting is easier to do with less cosmetic damage than "normal" riveting. Unfortunately you often can't get at the tail with the gun. Buy a special back-rivet set tool, and a massive steel plate for the front side. Any steel plate will do, you don't have to get a special one. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303311#303311 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:07 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: rivets... From: rwendell@hydro-splash.com R28gdG8gdGhlIEVBQSB3ZWJzaXRlIGFuZCB3YXRjaCB0aGUgdmlkZW9zIHZlcnkgaGVscGZ1bA0K U2VudCBmcm9tIG15IFZlcml6b24gV2lyZWxlc3MgQmxhY2tCZXJyeQ0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFs IE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogIlRvbnkgV29vZHMiIDx0d29vZHNAc2VzYS5hZj4NClNlbmRl cjogb3duZXItcnYxMC1saXN0LXNlcnZlckBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tDQpEYXRlOiBUaHUsIDEgSnVs IDIwMTAgMTk6MjM6MzMgDQpUbzogPHJ2MTAtbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tPg0KUmVwbHktVG86 IHJ2MTAtbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSVjEwLUxpc3Q6IHJpdmV0cy4uLg0K DQpUaGlzIGlzIGEgbXVsdGktcGFydCBtZXNzYWdlIGluIE1JTUUgZm9ybWF0Lg0KDQo ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:41 AM PST US From: "Chuck Weyant" Subject: RE: RV10-List: New taxi procedures at controlled airports No it's not a good thing! Extra verbage for detailed taxi instructions? We don't need that and controllers don't need that. Screw-up's will still occur. Controllers will still get it wrong from time-to-time and pilots will still hear it wrong --- from time-to-time. It's sissified female dominated FAA at its best --- again. Oh for the good 'ol days of manly controllers. And what's so damn hard to understand "taxi too Runway three-zero"? I'm a retired air traffic controller (who worked some big facilities) and used "taxi into position" a lot to expedite traffic. Now I hold on the ground with my nine heating up plugs fowling up burning excess fuel because the controller can't cock the runway because some sissy at headquarters thinks a controller doesn't have the ability to remember I'm there. Stupid, pathetic and demeaning to our wonderful controllers! God, this country is turning into a sissified-touchy-feely mess. Chuck -----Original Message----- I like this a lot, not that it matters now. I was in the habit of volunteering every runway cross when cleared to some other point. Never, ever got a hint of anything from ATC but "that's a good thing to do, no problem". Looking forward to sitting up higher in the '10. Now it's mandatory and a good thing. Bill Marcus Cooper wrote: > > At little off topic but in case the word is slow to get out a new procedure > takes effect on 30 Jun this may help. No longer will you ever be cleared to > taxi to a runway that involves crossing other runways along the way. Not a > big deal as you just follow their clearance and you are good to go, you just > might realize more stop and go and unused runways. Here's the info from the > FAA (http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/news/current_events/taxi_to/ > ): > > Explicit Runway Crossing Procedure Change > Beginning June 30, 2010, controllers will be required to issue explicit > instructions to cross or hold short of each runway that intersects a taxi > route. > "Taxi to" will no longer be used when issuing taxi instructions to an > assigned take-off runway. > Instructions to cross a runway will be issued one at a time. Instructions to > cross multiple runways will not be issued. An aircraft or vehicle must have > crossed the previous runway before another runway crossing is issued. > This applies to any runway including inactive or closed runways. > Changes will also be made to the AIM and AIP to reflect the new procedures. > Never cross a hold line without explicit ATC instructions. If in doubt ASK! > Reminder: You may not enter a runway unless you have been: instructed to > cross that specific runway; cleared to take off from that runway; or > instructed to position and hold on that specific runway. > For more information on the change, refer to FAA Order N JO 7110.532, which > can be found at: > http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7110.532.pdf. > > For additional information, go to http://www.faa.gov/go/runwaysafety > > Marcus > 40286 > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:04 AM PST US From: Sean Stephens Subject: Re: RV10-List: New taxi procedures at controlled airports I agree. Women have no place in government organizations. While we are at it, I think we should take away their right to vote. Just kidding of course. :) -Sean #40303 Fuse building male. DO NOT ARCHIVE On 7/1/10 12:47 PM, Chuck Weyant wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Chuck Weyant" > > No it's not a good thing! Extra verbage for detailed taxi instructions? We > don't need that and controllers don't need that. Screw-up's will still > occur. Controllers will still get it wrong from time-to-time and pilots > will still hear it wrong --- from time-to-time. It's sissified female > dominated FAA at its best --- again. Oh for the good 'ol days of manly > controllers. And what's so damn hard to understand "taxi too Runway > three-zero"? > > I'm a retired air traffic controller (who worked some big facilities) and > used "taxi into position" a lot to expedite traffic. Now I hold on the > ground with my nine heating up plugs fowling up burning excess fuel because > the controller can't cock the runway because some sissy at headquarters > thinks a controller doesn't have the ability to remember I'm there. Stupid, > pathetic and demeaning to our wonderful controllers! God, this country is > turning into a sissified-touchy-feely mess. > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > > I like this a lot, not that it matters now. > > I was in the habit of volunteering every runway cross when cleared to > some other point. Never, ever got a hint of anything from ATC but > "that's a good thing to do, no problem". > > Looking forward to sitting up higher in the '10. > > Now it's mandatory and a good thing. > > Bill > > Marcus Cooper wrote: > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus Cooper" >> >> At little off topic but in case the word is slow to get out a new >> > procedure > >> takes effect on 30 Jun this may help. No longer will you ever be cleared >> > to > >> taxi to a runway that involves crossing other runways along the way. Not >> > a > >> big deal as you just follow their clearance and you are good to go, you >> > just > >> might realize more stop and go and unused runways. Here's the info from >> > the > >> FAA >> > (http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/news/current_events/taxi_to/ > >> ): >> >> Explicit Runway Crossing Procedure Change >> Beginning June 30, 2010, controllers will be required to issue explicit >> instructions to cross or hold short of each runway that intersects a taxi >> route. >> "Taxi to" will no longer be used when issuing taxi instructions to an >> assigned take-off runway. >> Instructions to cross a runway will be issued one at a time. Instructions >> > to > >> cross multiple runways will not be issued. An aircraft or vehicle must >> > have > >> crossed the previous runway before another runway crossing is issued. >> This applies to any runway including inactive or closed runways. >> Changes will also be made to the AIM and AIP to reflect the new >> > procedures. > >> Never cross a hold line without explicit ATC instructions. If in doubt >> > ASK! > >> Reminder: You may not enter a runway unless you have been: instructed to >> cross that specific runway; cleared to take off from that runway; or >> instructed to position and hold on that specific runway. >> For more information on the change, refer to FAA Order N JO 7110.532, >> > which > >> can be found at: >> http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7110.532.pdf. >> >> For additional information, go to http://www.faa.gov/go/runwaysafety >> >> Marcus >> 40286 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: New taxi procedures at controlled airports From: rwendell@hydro-splash.com And what about the Irish Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Sean Stephens Sender: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV10-List: New taxi procedures at controlled airports I agree. Women have no place in government organizations. While we are at it, I think we should take away their right to vote. Just kidding of course. :) -Sean #40303 Fuse building male. DO NOT ARCHIVE On 7/1/10 12:47 PM, Chuck Weyant wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Chuck Weyant" > > No it's not a good thing! Extra verbage for detailed taxi instructions? We > don't need that and controllers don't need that. Screw-up's will still > occur. Controllers will still get it wrong from time-to-time and pilots > will still hear it wrong --- from time-to-time. It's sissified female > dominated FAA at its best --- again. Oh for the good 'ol days of manly > controllers. And what's so damn hard to understand "taxi too Runway > three-zero"? > > I'm a retired air traffic controller (who worked some big facilities) and > used "taxi into position" a lot to expedite traffic. Now I hold on the > ground with my nine heating up plugs fowling up burning excess fuel because > the controller can't cock the runway because some sissy at headquarters > thinks a controller doesn't have the ability to remember I'm there. Stupid, > pathetic and demeaning to our wonderful controllers! God, this country is > turning into a sissified-touchy-feely mess. > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > > I like this a lot, not that it matters now. > > I was in the habit of volunteering every runway cross when cleared to > some other point. Never, ever got a hint of anything from ATC but > "that's a good thing to do, no problem". > > Looking forward to sitting up higher in the '10. > > Now it's mandatory and a good thing. > > Bill > > Marcus Cooper wrote: > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus Cooper" >> >> At little off topic but in case the word is slow to get out a new >> > procedure > >> takes effect on 30 Jun this may help. No longer will you ever be cleared >> > to > >> taxi to a runway that involves crossing other runways along the way. Not >> > a > >> big deal as you just follow their clearance and you are good to go, you >> > just > >> might realize more stop and go and unused runways. Here's the info from >> > the > >> FAA >> > (http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/news/current_events/taxi_to/ > >> ): >> >> Explicit Runway Crossing Procedure Change >> Beginning June 30, 2010, controllers will be required to issue explicit >> instructions to cross or hold short of each runway that intersects a taxi >> route. >> "Taxi to" will no longer be used when issuing taxi instructions to an >> assigned take-off runway. >> Instructions to cross a runway will be issued one at a time. Instructions >> > to > >> cross multiple runways will not be issued. An aircraft or vehicle must >> > have > >> crossed the previous runway before another runway crossing is issued. >> This applies to any runway including inactive or closed runways. >> Changes will also be made to the AIM and AIP to reflect the new >> > procedures. > >> Never cross a hold line without explicit ATC instructions. If in doubt >> > ASK! > >> Reminder: You may not enter a runway unless you have been: instructed to >> cross that specific runway; cleared to take off from that runway; or >> instructed to position and hold on that specific runway. >> For more information on the change, refer to FAA Order N JO 7110.532, >> > which > >> can be found at: >> http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7110.532.pdf. >> >> For additional information, go to http://www.faa.gov/go/runwaysafety >> >> Marcus >> 40286 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:17 AM PST US From: Bill Mauledriver Watson Subject: Re: RV10-List: New taxi procedures at controlled airports Have a cup of tea on me. Chuck Weyant wrote: > > No it's not a good thing! Extra verbage for detailed taxi instructions? We > don't need that and controllers don't need that. Screw-up's will still > occur. Controllers will still get it wrong from time-to-time and pilots > will still hear it wrong --- from time-to-time. It's sissified female > dominated FAA at its best --- again. Oh for the good 'ol days of manly > controllers. And what's so damn hard to understand "taxi too Runway > three-zero"? > > I'm a retired air traffic controller (who worked some big facilities) and > used "taxi into position" a lot to expedite traffic. Now I hold on the > ground with my nine heating up plugs fowling up burning excess fuel because > the controller can't cock the runway because some sissy at headquarters > thinks a controller doesn't have the ability to remember I'm there. Stupid, > pathetic and demeaning to our wonderful controllers! God, this country is > turning into a sissified-touchy-feely mess. > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > > I like this a lot, not that it matters now. > > I was in the habit of volunteering every runway cross when cleared to > some other point. Never, ever got a hint of anything from ATC but > "that's a good thing to do, no problem". > > Looking forward to sitting up higher in the '10. > > Now it's mandatory and a good thing. > > Bill > > Marcus Cooper wrote: > >> >> At little off topic but in case the word is slow to get out a new >> > procedure > >> takes effect on 30 Jun this may help. No longer will you ever be cleared >> > to > >> taxi to a runway that involves crossing other runways along the way. Not >> > a > >> big deal as you just follow their clearance and you are good to go, you >> > just > >> might realize more stop and go and unused runways. Here's the info from >> > the > >> FAA >> > (http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/news/current_events/taxi_to/ > >> ): >> >> Explicit Runway Crossing Procedure Change >> Beginning June 30, 2010, controllers will be required to issue explicit >> instructions to cross or hold short of each runway that intersects a taxi >> route. >> "Taxi to" will no longer be used when issuing taxi instructions to an >> assigned take-off runway. >> Instructions to cross a runway will be issued one at a time. Instructions >> > to > >> cross multiple runways will not be issued. An aircraft or vehicle must >> > have > >> crossed the previous runway before another runway crossing is issued. >> This applies to any runway including inactive or closed runways. >> Changes will also be made to the AIM and AIP to reflect the new >> > procedures. > >> Never cross a hold line without explicit ATC instructions. If in doubt >> > ASK! > >> Reminder: You may not enter a runway unless you have been: instructed to >> cross that specific runway; cleared to take off from that runway; or >> instructed to position and hold on that specific runway. >> For more information on the change, refer to FAA Order N JO 7110.532, >> > which > >> can be found at: >> http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7110.532.pdf. >> >> For additional information, go to http://www.faa.gov/go/runwaysafety >> >> Marcus >> 40286 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:26 PM PST US From: "Chuck Weyant" Subject: RE: RV10-List: New taxi procedures at controlled airports Typical Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Mauledriver Watson Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 11:32 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: New taxi procedures at controlled airports Have a cup of tea on me. Chuck Weyant wrote: > > No it's not a good thing! Extra verbage for detailed taxi instructions? We > don't need that and controllers don't need that. Screw-up's will still > occur. Controllers will still get it wrong from time-to-time and pilots > will still hear it wrong --- from time-to-time. It's sissified female > dominated FAA at its best --- again. Oh for the good 'ol days of manly > controllers. And what's so damn hard to understand "taxi too Runway > three-zero"? > > I'm a retired air traffic controller (who worked some big facilities) and > used "taxi into position" a lot to expedite traffic. Now I hold on the > ground with my nine heating up plugs fowling up burning excess fuel because > the controller can't cock the runway because some sissy at headquarters > thinks a controller doesn't have the ability to remember I'm there. Stupid, > pathetic and demeaning to our wonderful controllers! God, this country is > turning into a sissified-touchy-feely mess. > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > > I like this a lot, not that it matters now. > > I was in the habit of volunteering every runway cross when cleared to > some other point. Never, ever got a hint of anything from ATC but > "that's a good thing to do, no problem". > > Looking forward to sitting up higher in the '10. > > Now it's mandatory and a good thing. > > Bill > > Marcus Cooper wrote: > >> >> At little off topic but in case the word is slow to get out a new >> > procedure > >> takes effect on 30 Jun this may help. No longer will you ever be cleared >> > to > >> taxi to a runway that involves crossing other runways along the way. Not >> > a > >> big deal as you just follow their clearance and you are good to go, you >> > just > >> might realize more stop and go and unused runways. Here's the info from >> > the > >> FAA >> > (http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/news/current_events/taxi_to/ > >> ): >> >> Explicit Runway Crossing Procedure Change >> Beginning June 30, 2010, controllers will be required to issue explicit >> instructions to cross or hold short of each runway that intersects a taxi >> route. >> "Taxi to" will no longer be used when issuing taxi instructions to an >> assigned take-off runway. >> Instructions to cross a runway will be issued one at a time. Instructions >> > to > >> cross multiple runways will not be issued. An aircraft or vehicle must >> > have > >> crossed the previous runway before another runway crossing is issued. >> This applies to any runway including inactive or closed runways. >> Changes will also be made to the AIM and AIP to reflect the new >> > procedures. > >> Never cross a hold line without explicit ATC instructions. If in doubt >> > ASK! > >> Reminder: You may not enter a runway unless you have been: instructed to >> cross that specific runway; cleared to take off from that runway; or >> instructed to position and hold on that specific runway. >> For more information on the change, refer to FAA Order N JO 7110.532, >> > which > >> can be found at: >> http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7110.532.pdf. >> >> For additional information, go to http://www.faa.gov/go/runwaysafety >> >> Marcus >> 40286 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:27 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: New taxi procedures at controlled airports From: Kelly McMullen Agree, except for the female part. I worked with several female controllers who were every bit as good as their male counterparts. Don't need the detailed instructions, don't need the verbatim readbacks of non-ifr clearances. Pilots doing readbacks are behaving like parrots and what they readback doesn't sink in at all. But ATC will never be the well oiled machine it was before the strike. What do you mean I can't put 3 small aircraft on the runway at the same time and run IFR arrivals at 2 3/4 mi separation! ;-) On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Chuck Weyant wrote: > > No it's not a good thing! Extra verbage for detailed taxi instructions? We > don't need that and controllers don't need that. Screw-up's will still > occur. Controllers will still get it wrong from time-to-time and pilots > will still hear it wrong --- from time-to-time. It's sissified female > dominated FAA at its best --- again. Oh for the good 'ol days of manly > controllers. And what's so damn hard to understand "taxi too Runway > three-zero"? > > I'm a retired air traffic controller (who worked some big facilities) and > used "taxi into position" a lot to expedite traffic. Now I hold on the > ground with my nine heating up plugs fowling up burning excess fuel because > the controller can't cock the runway because some sissy at headquarters > thinks a controller doesn't have the ability to remember I'm there. Stupid, > pathetic and demeaning to our wonderful controllers! God, this country is > turning into a sissified-touchy-feely mess. > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > > I like this a lot, not that it matters now. > > I was in the habit of volunteering every runway cross when cleared to > some other point. Never, ever got a hint of anything from ATC but > "that's a good thing to do, no problem". > > Looking forward to sitting up higher in the '10. > > Now it's mandatory and a good thing. > > Bill > > Marcus Cooper wrote: >> >> At little off topic but in case the word is slow to get out a new > procedure >> takes effect on 30 Jun this may help. No longer will you ever be cleared > to >> taxi to a runway that involves crossing other runways along the way. Not > a >> big deal as you just follow their clearance and you are good to go, you > just >> might realize more stop and go and unused runways. Here's the info from > the >> FAA > (http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/news/current_events/taxi_to/ >> ): >> >> Explicit Runway Crossing Procedure Change >> Beginning June 30, 2010, controllers will be required to issue explicit >> instructions to cross or hold short of each runway that intersects a taxi >> route. >> "Taxi to" will no longer be used when issuing taxi instructions to an >> assigned take-off runway. >> Instructions to cross a runway will be issued one at a time. Instructions > to >> cross multiple runways will not be issued. An aircraft or vehicle must > have >> crossed the previous runway before another runway crossing is issued. >> This applies to any runway including inactive or closed runways. >> Changes will also be made to the AIM and AIP to reflect the new > procedures. >> Never cross a hold line without explicit ATC instructions. If in doubt > ASK! >> Reminder: You may not enter a runway unless you have been: instructed to >> cross that specific runway; cleared to take off from that runway; or >> instructed to position and hold on that specific runway. >> For more information on the change, refer to FAA Order N JO 7110.532, > which >> can be found at: >> http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7110.532.pdf. >> >> For additional information, go to http://www.faa.gov/go/runwaysafety >> >> Marcus >> 40286 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:27 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: New taxi procedures at controlled airports AMEN Chuck! However, it'll give the FAA reason to hire more guys for ground control, and extra frequencies ...... Oh, wait .... The FAA is contracting out the towers. Here I sit in my Pitts .... nothing to write with or on .... and I get 7 taxiways that I'm supposed to remember and read back ........ Ah yes, give me the 'good old days'!!! Linn do not archive Chuck Weyant wrote: > > No it's not a good thing! Extra verbage for detailed taxi instructions? We > don't need that and controllers don't need that. Screw-up's will still > occur. Controllers will still get it wrong from time-to-time and pilots > will still hear it wrong --- from time-to-time. It's sissified female > dominated FAA at its best --- again. Oh for the good 'ol days of manly > controllers. And what's so damn hard to understand "taxi too Runway > three-zero"? > > I'm a retired air traffic controller (who worked some big facilities) and > used "taxi into position" a lot to expedite traffic. Now I hold on the > ground with my nine heating up plugs fowling up burning excess fuel because > the controller can't cock the runway because some sissy at headquarters > thinks a controller doesn't have the ability to remember I'm there. Stupid, > pathetic and demeaning to our wonderful controllers! God, this country is > turning into a sissified-touchy-feely mess. > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > > I like this a lot, not that it matters now. > > I was in the habit of volunteering every runway cross when cleared to > some other point. Never, ever got a hint of anything from ATC but > "that's a good thing to do, no problem". > > Looking forward to sitting up higher in the '10. > > Now it's mandatory and a good thing. > > Bill > > Marcus Cooper wrote: > >> >> At little off topic but in case the word is slow to get out a new >> > procedure > >> takes effect on 30 Jun this may help. No longer will you ever be cleared >> > to > >> taxi to a runway that involves crossing other runways along the way. Not >> > a > >> big deal as you just follow their clearance and you are good to go, you >> > just > >> might realize more stop and go and unused runways. Here's the info from >> > the > >> FAA >> > (http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/news/current_events/taxi_to/ > >> ): >> >> Explicit Runway Crossing Procedure Change >> Beginning June 30, 2010, controllers will be required to issue explicit >> instructions to cross or hold short of each runway that intersects a taxi >> route. >> "Taxi to" will no longer be used when issuing taxi instructions to an >> assigned take-off runway. >> Instructions to cross a runway will be issued one at a time. Instructions >> > to > >> cross multiple runways will not be issued. An aircraft or vehicle must >> > have > >> crossed the previous runway before another runway crossing is issued. >> This applies to any runway including inactive or closed runways. >> Changes will also be made to the AIM and AIP to reflect the new >> > procedures. > >> Never cross a hold line without explicit ATC instructions. If in doubt >> > ASK! > >> Reminder: You may not enter a runway unless you have been: instructed to >> cross that specific runway; cleared to take off from that runway; or >> instructed to position and hold on that specific runway. >> For more information on the change, refer to FAA Order N JO 7110.532, >> > which > >> can be found at: >> http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7110.532.pdf. >> >> For additional information, go to http://www.faa.gov/go/runwaysafety >> >> Marcus >> 40286 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:28 PM PST US From: David Maib Subject: Re: RV10-List: New taxi procedures at controlled airports Come on now Chuck! Tell us how you really feel! ^_^ David Maib RV-10 do not archive On Jul 1, 2010, at 1:47 PM, Chuck Weyant wrote: No it's not a good thing! Extra verbage for detailed taxi instructions? We don't need that and controllers don't need that. Screw-up's will still occur. Controllers will still get it wrong from time-to-time and pilots will still hear it wrong --- from time-to-time. It's sissified female dominated FAA at its best --- again. Oh for the good 'ol days of manly controllers. And what's so damn hard to understand "taxi too Runway three-zero"? I'm a retired air traffic controller (who worked some big facilities) and used "taxi into position" a lot to expedite traffic. Now I hold on the ground with my nine heating up plugs fowling up burning excess fuel because the controller can't cock the runway because some sissy at headquarters thinks a controller doesn't have the ability to remember I'm there. Stupid, pathetic and demeaning to our wonderful controllers! God, this country is turning into a sissified-touchy-feely mess. Chuck -----Original Message----- I like this a lot, not that it matters now. I was in the habit of volunteering every runway cross when cleared to some other point. Never, ever got a hint of anything from ATC but "that's a good thing to do, no problem". Looking forward to sitting up higher in the '10. Now it's mandatory and a good thing. Bill Marcus Cooper wrote: > > At little off topic but in case the word is slow to get out a new procedure > takes effect on 30 Jun this may help. No longer will you ever be > cleared to > taxi to a runway that involves crossing other runways along the > way. Not a > big deal as you just follow their clearance and you are good to go, > you just > might realize more stop and go and unused runways. Here's the info > from the > FAA (http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/news/current_events/taxi_to/ > ): > > Explicit Runway Crossing Procedure Change > Beginning June 30, 2010, controllers will be required to issue > explicit > instructions to cross or hold short of each runway that intersects > a taxi > route. > "Taxi to" will no longer be used when issuing taxi instructions to an > assigned take-off runway. > Instructions to cross a runway will be issued one at a time. > Instructions to > cross multiple runways will not be issued. An aircraft or vehicle must have > crossed the previous runway before another runway crossing is issued. > This applies to any runway including inactive or closed runways. > Changes will also be made to the AIM and AIP to reflect the new procedures. > Never cross a hold line without explicit ATC instructions. If in doubt ASK! > Reminder: You may not enter a runway unless you have been: > instructed to > cross that specific runway; cleared to take off from that runway; or > instructed to position and hold on that specific runway. > For more information on the change, refer to FAA Order N JO 7110.532, which > can be found at: > http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7110.532.pdf. > > For additional information, go to http://www.faa.gov/go/runwaysafety > > Marcus > 40286 > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:54 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Oil Temps From: "bill@airflow" Full disclosure: My firm manufactures the 2006X oil cooler used on many of your RV-10s and we developed the splitter that some of you use in the oil cooler air box. This forum provides a great service to those of you building and flying RV-10s, but I am concerned about the trend of providing single data points (ex: oil temps) without supporting test data. I encounter this often in the phone calls from RV-10 owners that are struggling with high oil temps. We are able to solve the problem, but I think more owners could be helped if a standardized approach and test form were used. If someone writes in and says my temps are XXX without giving OAT on the ground and for each 1000 feet in climb, fuel flow, manifold pressure, take off weight, number of blades on the prop, etc., etc. the information is not as useful as it could be. Yes, you all know your airplanes well and can see trends, but for real problem solving we need standardized data. For example, a pilot that sits, with engine running, for 15 minutes waiting for a clearance in Phoenix in July is going to have different results (due to heat soak) than someone with the same load that taxis out of his residential hangar and is off the ground in 5 minutes, even with the same ground OAT. I would be happy to provide a standard PDF Flight Test form similar to what we have used for FAA flight testing the past if anyone is interested. Perhaps there can be an offline place where people can share more detailed data. With modern engine monitors we should be able to come up with some very useful data very quickly. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303373#303373 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:52 PM PST US From: "Tony Woods" Subject: RE: RV10-List: rivets... Hey thank you very much everyone! I have found a retired aircraft engineer down here to give me some help, and will be getting started on a toolbox this weekend... J Tony Woods New Zealand Do not archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rwendell@hydro-splash.com Sent: Friday, 2 July 2010 4:42 a.m. Subject: Re: RV10-List: rivets... Go to the EAA website and watch the videos very helpful Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry _____ From: "Tony Woods" Sender: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: rivets... Ok.=C2- I worked out how to use the rivet squeezer, and have built my VS = skeleton.=C2- So far so good. =C2-=C2-Now I=99m fixing the skin, and wanted to = pause to get a few words of advice on how I rivet into areas where=C2- I can't use the = squeezer.=C2- OK =93 Enter the mysterious bucking bar right?=C2- I guess I place this = bucking bar against the exterior skin, a flat tungsten surface, and then reach = inside the VS to use the rivet gun to hammer the protruding stub and form the = head? Man, do I sound like = a newbee yet? Tony = 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ~ _____ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:43 PM PST US From: "Pascal" Subject: RV10-List: audio cable near battery cable- any issues? Looking for feedback for how far should I run a audio input from a battery cable - specifically I have a music input for the audio panel and need to run it along the same side as the battery cable runs- not sure there is any feedback issues I should be concerned with. Thanks! Pascal ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:08 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: audio cable near battery cable- any issues? The audio cables should be shielded, and grounded at one end only. Shouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't wrap the audio cables around the battery cable though! ;-) The only time there MAY be a problem with induced noise is during cranking when there is a lot of current. Having said all that, it isn't 'good' practice to run signal wires alongside high current cables ..... but I doubt you'll see any problems. Linn Pascal wrote: > Looking for feedback for how far should I run a audio input from a > battery cable - specifically I have a music input for the audio panel > and need to run it along the same side as the battery cable runs- not > sure there is any feedback issues I should be concerned with. > Thanks! > Pascal > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:08 PM PST US From: Alan Bikle Subject: RV10-List: Test Just testing link=0A-=0AAlan Bikle=0A-Airflow Technolgy=0A1586 Moffett Street Ste. E=0ASalinas, CA. 93905=0ATel: 831-320-0193 =0AFax: 831-771-0833 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:08 PM PST US From: Alan Bikle Subject: RV10-List: Test Just testing link=0A-=0AAlan Bikle=0A-Airflow Technolgy=0A1586 Moffett Street Ste. E=0ASalinas, CA. 93905=0ATel: 831-320-0193 =0AFax: 831-771-0833 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:39 PM PST US From: "Tony Woods" Subject: RE: RV10-List: rivets... OK =93 I'm not going to drive any rivets until I have the technique sorted out. I have a good 3x gun and tungsten bucking bar. I got the whole tool kit from PlaneTools, so have back-riveting sets etc etc. Much of it I'm still looking at and wondering what it does, but looking forward to finding out! The EAA videos are excellent. OK, so for places like the inside structure of the VS., I use the gun on the outside of the structure as it clearly won't fit inside, and hold a bucking bar against the rivet tail, inside the structure. The rivet head is formed against the bucking bar right? Tony New Zealand Do not archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rwendell@hydro-splash.com Sent: Friday, 2 July 2010 4:42 a.m. Subject: Re: RV10-List: rivets... Go to the EAA website and watch the videos very helpful Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry _____ From: "Tony Woods" Sender: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: rivets... Ok.=C2- I worked out how to use the rivet squeezer, and have built my VS = skeleton.=C2- So far so good. =C2-=C2-Now I=99m fixing the skin, and wanted to = pause to get a few words of advice on how I rivet into areas where=C2- I can't use the = squeezer.=C2- OK =93 Enter the mysterious bucking bar right?=C2- I guess I place this = bucking bar against the exterior skin, a flat tungsten surface, and then reach = inside the VS to use the rivet gun to hammer the protruding stub and form the = head? Man, do I sound like = a newbee yet? Tony = 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ~ _____ ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:43 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: rivets... From: "tsts4" Woodie, Correct. Once you do it a few times it will all click. -------- Todd Stovall 728TT (reserved) RV-10 Empacone, Wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303402#303402 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: rivets... From: Kelly McMullen The plans for the empenage tell you how Vans think you should rivet a part, including when back riveting is appropriate. Later sections leave that up t o your experience. If you are using bucking bar with rivet gun on the manufactured head, then yes the shop head is formed against the bucking bar .. In back riveting the shop head is formed by the rivet gun. In some cases yo u can back rivet with a large round bucking bar, such as http://www.averytools.com/pc-649-19-bucking-bar.aspx for places where you can't lay the sheet metal against the back rivet plate. If I recall correctly, some of the vertical stab is much easier to do with an assistant holding the bucking bar. On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Tony Woods wrote: > OK ' I'm not going to drive any rivets until I have the technique sort ed > out. I have a good 3x gun and tungsten bucking bar. I got the whole too l > kit from PlaneTools, so have back-riveting sets etc etc. Much of it I'm > still looking at and wondering what it does, but looking forward to findi ng > out! The EAA videos are excellent. > > > OK, so for places like the inside structure of the VS., I use the gun on > the outside of the structure as it clearly won't fit inside, and hold a > bucking bar against the rivet tail, inside the structure. The rivet head is > formed against the bucking bar right? > > > Tony > > New Zealand > > Do not archive > > > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of * > rwendell@hydro-splash.com > *Sent:* Friday, 2 July 2010 4:42 a.m. > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: rivets... > > > Go to the EAA website and watch the videos very helpful > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > ------------------------------ > > *From: *"Tony Woods" > > *Sender: *owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > > *Date: *Thu, 1 Jul 2010 19:23:33 +1200 > > *To: * > > *ReplyTo: *rv10-list@matronics.com > > *Subject: *RV10-List: rivets... > > > Ok.=C2- I worked out how to use the rivet squeezer, and have built my VS > = skeleton.=C2- So far so good. =C2-=C2-Now I= 80=99m fixing the > skin, and wanted to = pause to get a few words of advice on how I rivet into > areas where=C2- I can't use the = squeezer.=C2- OK = 80=93 Enter the > mysterious bucking bar right?=C2- I guess I place this = bucking bar > against the exterior skin, a flat tungsten surface, and then reach = in side > the VS to use the rivet gun to hammer the protruding stub and form the > head? > > > Man, do I sound like = a newbee yet? > > > Tony > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > ~ > ------------------------------ > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:45 PM PST US From: David Maib Subject: Re: RV10-List: rivets... Mary and I used that bucking bar http://www.averytools.com/pc-649-19- bucking-bar.aspx extensively while riveting our tailcone. I back riveted from the inside while she held the bucking bar on the manufactured heads on the exterior. It worked great and we get lots of compliments on the riveting. I found during the build that my number one preference was to squeeze the rivet. If that was not possible, then back riveting was choice number two. If that would not work then shooting the rivet with the gun on the manufactured head and the bucking bar on the tail was choice number three. The pneumatic squeezer was a very gentlemanly way to rivet. I loved using that tool! David Maib 40559 Flying On Jul 1, 2010, at 10:08 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: The plans for the empenage tell you how Vans think you should rivet a part, including when back riveting is appropriate. Later sections leave that up to your experience. If you are using bucking bar with rivet gun on the manufactured head, then yes the shop head is formed against the bucking bar. In back riveting the shop head is formed by the rivet gun. In some cases you can back rivet with a large round bucking bar, such as http://www.averytools.com/pc-649-19-bucking- bar.aspx for places where you can't lay the sheet metal against the back rivet plate. If I recall correctly, some of the vertical stab is much easier to do with an assistant holding the bucking bar. On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Tony Woods wrote: OK ' I'm not going to drive any rivets until I have the technique sorted out. I have a good 3x gun and tungsten bucking bar. I got the whole tool kit from PlaneTools, so have back-riveting sets etc etc. Much of it I'm still looking at and wondering what it does, but looking forward to finding out! The EAA videos are excellent. OK, so for places like the inside structure of the VS., I use the gun on the outside of the structure as it clearly won't fit inside, and hold a bucking bar against the rivet tail, inside the structure. The rivet head is formed against the bucking bar right? Tony New Zealand Do not archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list- server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rwendell@hydro-splash.com Sent: Friday, 2 July 2010 4:42 a.m. Subject: Re: RV10-List: rivets... Go to the EAA website and watch the videos very helpful Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry From: "Tony Woods" Sender: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: rivets... Ok.=C2- I worked out how to use the rivet squeezer, and have built my VS = skeleton.=C2- So far so good. =C2-=C2-Now I=99m fixing the skin, and wanted to = pause to get a few words of advice on how I rivet into areas where=C2- I can't use the = squeezer.=C2- OK =93 Enter the mysterious bucking bar right? =C2- I guess I place this = bucking bar against the exterior skin, a flat tungsten surface, and then reach = inside the VS to use the rivet gun to hammer the protruding stub and form the = head? Man, do I sound like = a newbee yet? Tony http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ~ get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:48 PM PST US From: "Tony Woods" Subject: RE: RV10-List: rivets... Thanks heaps guys! That is a huge help to my confidence! J Woodsie Do not archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Friday, 2 July 2010 2:09 p.m. Subject: Re: RV10-List: rivets... The plans for the empenage tell you how Vans think you should rivet a part, including when back riveting is appropriate. Later sections leave that up to your experience. If you are using bucking bar with rivet gun on the manufactured head, then yes the shop head is formed against the bucking bar. In back riveting the shop head is formed by the rivet gun. In some cases you can back rivet with a large round bucking bar, such as http://www.averytools.com/pc-649-19-bucking-bar.aspx for places where you can't lay the sheet metal against the back rivet plate. If I recall correctly, some of the vertical stab is much easier to do with an assistant holding the bucking bar. On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Tony Woods wrote: OK - I'm not going to drive any rivets until I have the technique sorted out. I have a good 3x gun and tungsten bucking bar. I got the whole tool kit from PlaneTools, so have back-riveting sets etc etc. Much of it I'm still looking at and wondering what it does, but looking forward to finding out! The EAA videos are excellent. OK, so for places like the inside structure of the VS., I use the gun on the outside of the structure as it clearly won't fit inside, and hold a bucking bar against the rivet tail, inside the structure. The rivet head is formed against the bucking bar right? Tony New Zealand Do not archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rwendell@hydro-splash.com Sent: Friday, 2 July 2010 4:42 a.m. Subject: Re: RV10-List: rivets... Go to the EAA website and watch the videos very helpful Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry _____ From: "Tony Woods" Sender: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10-List: rivets... Ok.=C2- I worked out how to use the rivet squeezer, and have built my VS skeleton.=C2- So far so good. =C2-=C2-Now I=99m fixing the skin, and wanted to = pause to get a few words of advice on how I rivet into areas where=C2- I can't use the = squeezer.=C2- OK =93 Enter the mysterious bucking bar right?=C2- I guess I place this = bucking bar against the exterior skin, a flat tungsten surface, and then reach = inside the VS to use the rivet gun to hammer the protruding stub and form the head? Man, do I sound like = a newbee yet? Tony = http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ~ _____ get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:51 PM PST US From: Nick Nafsinger Subject: RV10-List: Re: Cowl Flaps Coming in late here.... Yes, we've got cowl flaps on our 10. Non-Cold Air James cowl, Rod Bower intake, Vetterman 6 into 2 with mufflers. Abdolutly no cooling problems here in the Houston heat, no luvers installed. One very pleasant suprise was a 4 knot increase in speed when the cowl flaps are closed up. I'm at work for the next few days, but on Monday when I get home I'll try and get some pictures posted. Nick Nafsinger Houston, TX Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Cowl Flaps From: Tom Koelzer <40950@rv10.net> Thanks, Nick. I'd like to see the pictures and any detail you have to offer. Tom Koelzer 40950 Wings Do not archive. On Jul 1, 2010, at 11:47 PM, Nick Nafsinger wrote: > > > Coming in late here.... Yes, we've got cowl flaps on our 10. Non-Cold Air James cowl, Rod Bower intake, Vetterman 6 into 2 with mufflers. > > Abdolutly no cooling problems here in the Houston heat, no luvers installed. One very pleasant suprise was a 4 knot increase in speed when the cowl flaps are closed up. I'm at work for the next few days, but on Monday when I get home I'll try and get some pictures posted. > > Nick Nafsinger > Houston, TX > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:02 PM PST US From: Robin Marks Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Cowl Flaps As the kids say: me2 Robin Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Koelzer Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 10:15 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Cowl Flaps Thanks, Nick. I'd like to see the pictures and any detail you have to offer. Tom Koelzer 40950 Wings Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:06 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV10-List: Official RV10-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the RV10-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete RV10-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV10-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains RV10-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the RV10-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the RV10-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: rv10-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "rv10-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the RV10-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the RV10-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/rv10-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all RV10-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the RV10-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * RV10-List.FAQ - Latest version of the RV10-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * RV10-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * RV10-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * RV10-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the RV10-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * RV10-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the RV10-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the RV10-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?RV10 ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** RV10-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV10-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the RV10-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. RV10-List Policy Statement The purpose of the RV10-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:35 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV10-List: Official RV10-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the RV10-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete RV10-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV10-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** RV10-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV10-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the RV10-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. RV10-List Policy Statement The purpose of the RV10-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.