Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:23 AM - Tool question - anyone familiar with Enderes tools? (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
2. 12:03 PM - Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors (Dave Saylor)
3. 12:24 PM - Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors (Alan Mekler)
4. 01:00 PM - Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors (Tim Olson)
5. 01:50 PM - Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors (Kelly McMullen)
6. 02:06 PM - Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors (Alan Mekler)
7. 02:21 PM - Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors (Kelly McMullen)
8. 02:39 PM - Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors (Alan Mekler)
9. 03:10 PM - Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors (Carl Froehlich)
10. 03:32 PM - Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors (Alan Mekler)
11. 03:35 PM - Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors (Kelly McMullen)
12. 08:19 PM - Re: Re: lessons learned installing plexiglas with Weld-on 10 (Linn Walters)
13. 08:34 PM - Re: Re: lessons learned installing plexiglas with Weld-on 10 (Kelly McMullen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Tool question - anyone familiar with Enderes tools? |
I have this one long shaft phillips head screwdriver that keeps
falling into my hands. It seems to be a #1 phillips but actually works
better than both my #1 and #2 Craftsman drivers.
Probably inherited it from my Dad's shop. It's rusty and looks like
hell so I'm never drawn to it... until I'm struggling with some screw.
I always end up with this one in my hand and the problem is solved.
I've looked Enderes up on the Web and see they forge tools and blah
blah. Any tool knowledgeable people out there know anything about
Enderes? I think I want to try some more.
Bill "assembling some painted parts" Watson
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
Before I took the contaminated one apart, I called the engine shop to find
out what to expect. That was a Bendix flow divider, not an AFP. AFP might
walk someone through a teardown. I'd call them before I took one of their
dividers apart, which is what I'd recommend for anyone. After that it's up
to the builder to decide if he's capable or not.
The Bendix divider was pretty simple inside. It was a few years ago but I
remember a fairly delicate diaphragm, a vertical stem that acts as the
valve, and a light spring. Just go slow and be careful, and it should go
OK. I actually found the bit of hose that was causing the problem but it
was pretty obvious, not buried deep inside one of the internal passages.
That was pure luck.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:16 AM, John Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com> wrote:
> Dave, you say you changed it. That is what I did with an Airflow
> Performance divider. They were fast and it was piece of mind insurance.
> the aircraft ran fine afterwards. Do you support, OBAM builders opening
up
> their flow dividers.
>
> John Cox
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Dave Saylor
> *Sent:* Thu 8/26/2010 9:32 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> I've seen two flow divider failures in the last 5 years. One had a littl
e
> speck of hose liner (from a certified hose shop) jammed in the stem. The
> engine would barely run.
>
> The other was discovered looking for excessive roughness LOP. We changed
> just about everything we could think of, and finally changed the flow
> divider just to be thorough. That fixed the problem, but we never did
> figure out why.
>
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Alan Mekler <amekler@metrocast.net>wrote
:
>
>> Kelly,
>>
>> My engine has had the AD done but we did find an interesting finding. We
>> did the bottle test with the injectors on and we saw less fuel coming ou
t #5
>> even though it had the richest injector. So now we know the problem must
be
>> in the flow divider. Not sure what the next step will be. Will try calli
ng
>> Precision tomorrow.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
>> owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Kelly McMullen
>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:07 PM
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>>
>>
>>
>> It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security
of
>> the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the safe
ty
>> wire.
>> AD 2008-08-14
>> SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment
>> adopting emergency
>> airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all
>> known U.S. owners and
>> operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO, IV
O,
>> and HIO series
>> reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and Superi
or
>> Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
>> series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5
>> and RSA-10 series fuel
>> injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel injectio
n
>> servo plugs, part number
>> (P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded
>> plug hole on the regulator
>> cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with
>> servo plug gasket, P/N
>> 365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a lea
n
>> running engine, which
>> could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss o
f
>> control of the airplane
>>
>> (f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by
>> attempting to turn it by
>> hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the
>> plug moves, it is loose.
>> (g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
>> (h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
>> (1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the serv
o
>> plug and regulator
>> cover only.
>> (2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533, th
at
>> is behind the plug, is
>> not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
>> (3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for damage
.
>> Threads should be
>> smooth and consistent, with no burrs or chips. The servo plug outer
>> diameter threads should also
>> measure within 0.7419-0.7500-inch.
>> (4) If the threads on either the servo plug or the regulator cover are
>> damaged, or do not measure
>> within the limits in paragraph (h)(3) of this AD, the servo is not
>> eligible for any installation and must
>> be replaced before further flight.
>> (5) Inspect the gasket, P/N 365533, for tears and other damage. We are
>> allowing the re-use of
>> undamaged gaskets. Replace damaged gaskets with a new gasket, P/N 365533
.
>> (6) When reassembling, do not install any servo plug or regulator cover
>> that is not eligible for
>> installation. Install the gasket onto the servo plug and reassemble the
>> servo plug to the regulator
>> cover.
>> (7) Torque the servo plug to a new, higher torque of 90-100 in-lbs, to
>> help maintain the proper
>> clamp-up force against the plug and cover.
>> (8) Safety wire the servo plug with 0.025-inch diameter wire to the
>> regulator cover. Information
>> on properly safety wiring the plug can be found in Precision Airmotive L
LC
>> Mandatory Service
>> Bulletin No. PRS-107, Revision 1, dated March 6, 2008.
>> (9) Inspect all other safety wire on the servo. Replace any that are
>> damaged.
>>
>>
>> On 8/22/2010 4:32 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
>>
>> Patrick,
>>
>> Which SB are you referring to?
>>
>> Alan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [
>> mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com<owner-rv10-list-server@matro
nics.com>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Patrick Thyssen
>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>>
>>
>>
>> That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a
>> wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the
>> injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your bo
ost
>> pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is in all
the
>> glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but since you h
ave
>> different injectors it won't work that way.
>> Just my way of checking.
>> Patrick Thyssen
>> Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I
>> just checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
>>
>>
>> --- On *Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler <amekler@metrocast.net><amekler@metroc
ast.net>
>> * wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Alan Mekler <amekler@metrocast.net> <amekler@metrocast.net>
>> Subject: RE: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 6:00 PM
>>
>> Patrick,
>>
>> Give me the details of the coke bottle test. I=99m going to try s
witching
>> probes.
>>
>> The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [
>> mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com<owner-rv10-list-server@matro
nics.com>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Patrick Thyssen
>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>>
>>
>>
>> HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH
>> INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe s
wap
>> a few probes and see what you get.
>> Patrick Thyssen
>>
>> --- On *Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com><kellym@aviati
ng.com>
>> * wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> <kellym@aviating.com>
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 3:46 PM
>>
llym@aviating.com>
>>
>>
>> About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
>> builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
>> the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
>> each
>> cylinder................................................................
.................
>>
>> Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
>> arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
>> inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
>> anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
>> the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
>> Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
>> that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
>>
>> On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
>> > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Alan Mekler"<amekler@metrocast.net>
<amekler@metrocast.net>
>> >
>> > Kelly,
>> > I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
>> > injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J
>> plus)
>> > Alan
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com<owner-rv10-list-server@ma
tronics.com>]
>> On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
>> > Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 8:13 PM
>> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> > Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>> >
>> > --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen<kellym@aviating.com><
kellym@aviating.com>
>> >
>> > Perhaps you are working on the wrong end of the problem. #3&4 are
>> > peaking last, so must be too rich. The rest of the cylinders are peaki
ng
>> > within 0.4gph of #5. You also will need to gather measurements every 0
.2
>> > gph to better detect the peaks once you get those two cylinders closer
>> > to the rest.
>> >
>> > On 8/21/2010 3:59 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
>> >> Patrick,
>> >>
>> >> Before switching to the GAMIs my cylinder #5 peaked at 2.5 gallons l
>> >> than my richest cylinder #3. After changing to GAMIs (my 3^rd set) I'
m
>> >> down to a 1 gallon spread. GAMI has given me the richest injector the
y
>> >> make for cylinder # 5 but it still peaks early.
>> >>
>> >> Here is my latest flight data flying at 7000 MSL 22 inches/ 2400 rpm.
>> >>
>> >> Alan
>> >>
>> >> 13 12.5 12.1 11.7 11.3 11.0 10.5 10.3 Fuel flow gal/hr
>> >>
>> >> 1420 1438 1468 1474 1453 1438 1422 1403 cylinder #1
>> >>
>> >> 1381 1398 1428 1452 1447 1437 1412 1373 cylinder #2
>> >>
>> >> 1393 1409 1438 1456 1473 1468 1448 1414 cylinder #3
>> >>
>> >> 1400 1417 1449 1468 1477 1470 1450 1414 cylinder #4
>> >>
>> >> 1434 1467 1469 1443 1415 1411 1400 1435 cylinder # 5
>> >>
>> >> 1410 1430 1463 1474 1458 1441 1420 1397 cylinder #6
>> >>
>> >> other method
>> >>
>> >> cylinder #1 1472 peak @ 11.5
>> >>
>> >> cylinder #2 1451 peak@ 11.2
>> >>
>> >> cylinder #3 1472 peak @ 11.1
>> >>
>> >> cylinder#4 1477 peak @ 11.2
>> >>
>> >> cylinder #5 1473 peak @ 12.1
>> >>
>> >> cylinder #6 1474 peak @ 11.5
>> >>
>> >>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com<owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Patrick
>> >> Thyssen
>> >> *Sent:* Saturday, August 21, 2010 5:22 PM
>> >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
>> >> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>> >>
>> >> ? Have you done the coke bottle check? Has anyone messed with the
>> >> lines from the spider to injectors? Are we sure the lines are the
>> >> right ones? The other thing have you had any problems with your EGT
>> >> system. Could your EGT probes be bad?
>> >> Peaking or not peaking where they should?
>> >> Just a few thoughts
>> >> Patrick Thyssen
>> >>
>> >> --- On *Sat, 8/21/10, Alan Mekler /<amekler@metrocast.net><amekler@me
trocast.net>/*
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> From: Alan Mekler<amekler@metrocast.net> <amekler@metrocast.net>
>> >> Subject: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>> >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> >> Date: Saturday, August 21, 2010, 11:04 AM
>> >>
>> >> I have been trying the GAMI injectors( on the 4^th set now) but found
>> >> the fuel flow on the cylinders varies widely. My cylinder #5 has the
>> >> richest injector and it still peaks a gallon or more before the other
>> >> cylinders Before gamis it was 2.5 gallons.. Has any one had this
>> >> problem? Any solutions?
>> >>
>> >> GAMI does not why the fuel is so unbalanced in this engine. I have 95
>> >> hours on the engine and all compressions are good. No intake leaks.
>> >>
>> >> Alan
>> >>
>> >> N668G
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> * *
>> >> * *
>> >> **
>> >> **
>> >> **
>> >> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>> >> **
>> >> **
>> >> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>> >> **
>> >> **
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>> >> *
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *
>> >
>> >atronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.co================
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>> http://www.matronics.com/cont==============
=
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Message 3
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| Subject: | TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
Dave,
Mine is a precision silver hawk ex. No call back from Mattituck. Will have
to wait to Monday. Will have to continue to fly rich of peak this weekend.
Alan
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
Before I took the contaminated one apart, I called the engine shop to find
out what to expect. That was a Bendix flow divider, not an AFP. AFP might
walk someone through a teardown. I'd call them before I took one of their
dividers apart, which is what I'd recommend for anyone. After that it's up
to the builder to decide if he's capable or not.
The Bendix divider was pretty simple inside. It was a few years ago but I
remember a fairly delicate diaphragm, a vertical stem that acts as the
valve, and a light spring. Just go slow and be careful, and it should go
OK. I actually found the bit of hose that was causing the problem but it
was pretty obvious, not buried deep inside one of the internal passages.
That was pure luck.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:16 AM, John Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com> wrote:
Dave, you say you changed it. That is what I did with an Airflow
Performance divider. They were fast and it was piece of mind insurance.
the aircraft ran fine afterwards. Do you support, OBAM builders opening up
their flow dividers.
John Cox
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Dave Saylor
Sent: Thu 8/26/2010 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
I've seen two flow divider failures in the last 5 years. One had a little
speck of hose liner (from a certified hose shop) jammed in the stem. The
engine would barely run.
The other was discovered looking for excessive roughness LOP. We changed
just about everything we could think of, and finally changed the flow
divider just to be thorough. That fixed the problem, but we never did
figure out why.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Alan Mekler <amekler@metrocast.net> wrote:
Kelly,
My engine has had the AD done but we did find an interesting finding. We did
the bottle test with the injectors on and we saw less fuel coming out #5
even though it had the richest injector. So now we know the problem must be
in the flow divider. Not sure what the next step will be. Will try calling
Precision tomorrow.
Alan
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security of
the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the safety
wire.
AD 2008-08-14
SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment
adopting emergency
airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all
known U.S. owners and
operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO, IVO,
and HIO series
reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and Superior
Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5 and
RSA-10 series fuel
injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel injection
servo plugs, part number
(P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded
plug hole on the regulator
cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with
servo plug gasket, P/N
365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a lean
running engine, which
could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss of
control of the airplane
(f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by
attempting to turn it by
hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the plug
moves, it is loose.
(g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
(h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
(1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the servo
plug and regulator
cover only.
(2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533, that
is behind the plug, is
not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
(3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for damage.
Threads should be
smooth and consistent, with no burrs or chips. The servo plug outer diameter
threads should also
measure within 0.7419-0.7500-inch.
(4) If the threads on either the servo plug or the regulator cover are
damaged, or do not measure
within the limits in paragraph (h)(3) of this AD, the servo is not eligible
for any installation and must
be replaced before further flight.
(5) Inspect the gasket, P/N 365533, for tears and other damage. We are
allowing the re-use of
undamaged gaskets. Replace damaged gaskets with a new gasket, P/N 365533.
(6) When reassembling, do not install any servo plug or regulator cover that
is not eligible for
installation. Install the gasket onto the servo plug and reassemble the
servo plug to the regulator
cover.
(7) Torque the servo plug to a new, higher torque of 90-100 in-lbs, to help
maintain the proper
clamp-up force against the plug and cover.
(8) Safety wire the servo plug with 0.025-inch diameter wire to the
regulator cover. Information
on properly safety wiring the plug can be found in Precision Airmotive LLC
Mandatory Service
Bulletin No. PRS-107, Revision 1, dated March 6, 2008.
(9) Inspect all other safety wire on the servo. Replace any that are
damaged.
On 8/22/2010 4:32 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
Patrick,
Which SB are you referring to?
Alan
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a
wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the
injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your boost
pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is in all the
glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but since you have
different injectors it won't work that way.
Just my way of checking.
Patrick Thyssen
Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I just
checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>
<amekler@metrocast.net> wrote:
From: Alan Mekler <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net> <amekler@metrocast.net>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
Patrick,
Give me the details of the coke bottle test. I'm going to try switching
probes.
The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
Alan
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Thyssen
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH
INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe swap
a few probes and see what you get.
Patrick Thyssen
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>
<kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
From: Kelly McMullen <mailto:kellym@aviating.com> <kellym@aviating.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
<mailto:kellym@aviating.com> <kellym@aviating.com>
About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
each
cylinder....................................................................
.............
Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Alan Mekler"
<mailto:amekler@metrocast.net> <amekler@metrocast.net>
>
> Kelly,
> I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
> injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J plus)
> Alan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
> Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 8:13 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen
<mailto:kellym@aviating.com> <kellym@aviating.com>
>
> Perhaps you are working on the wrong end of the problem. #3&4 are
> peaking last, so must be too rich. The rest of the cylinders are peaking
> within 0.4gph of #5. You also will need to gather measurements every 0.2
> gph to better detect the peaks once you get those two cylinders closer
> to the rest.
>
> On 8/21/2010 3:59 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
>> Patrick,
>>
>> Before switching to the GAMIs my cylinder #5 peaked at 2.5 gallons l
>> than my richest cylinder #3. After changing to GAMIs (my 3^rd set) I'm
>> down to a 1 gallon spread. GAMI has given me the richest injector they
>> make for cylinder # 5 but it still peaks early.
>>
>> Here is my latest flight data flying at 7000 MSL 22 inches/ 2400 rpm.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>> 13 12.5 12.1 11.7 11.3 11.0 10.5 10.3 Fuel flow gal/hr
>>
>> 1420 1438 1468 1474 1453 1438 1422 1403 cylinder #1
>>
>> 1381 1398 1428 1452 1447 1437 1412 1373 cylinder #2
>>
>> 1393 1409 1438 1456 1473 1468 1448 1414 cylinder #3
>>
>> 1400 1417 1449 1468 1477 1470 1450 1414 cylinder #4
>>
>> 1434 1467 1469 1443 1415 1411 1400 1435 cylinder # 5
>>
>> 1410 1430 1463 1474 1458 1441 1420 1397 cylinder #6
>>
>> other method
>>
>> cylinder #1 1472 peak @ 11.5
>>
>> cylinder #2 1451 peak@ 11.2
>>
>> cylinder #3 1472 peak @ 11.1
>>
>> cylinder#4 1477 peak @ 11.2
>>
>> cylinder #5 1473 peak @ 12.1
>>
>> cylinder #6 1474 peak @ 11.5
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick
>> Thyssen
>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 21, 2010 5:22 PM
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>>
>> ? Have you done the coke bottle check? Has anyone messed with the
>> lines from the spider to injectors? Are we sure the lines are the
>> right ones? The other thing have you had any problems with your EGT
>> system. Could your EGT probes be bad?
>> Peaking or not peaking where they should?
>> Just a few thoughts
>> Patrick Thyssen
>>
>> --- On *Sat, 8/21/10, Alan Mekler / <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>
<amekler@metrocast.net>/* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Alan Mekler <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net> <amekler@metrocast.net>
>> Subject: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Date: Saturday, August 21, 2010, 11:04 AM
>>
>> I have been trying the GAMI injectors( on the 4^th set now) but found
>> the fuel flow on the cylinders varies widely. My cylinder #5 has the
>> richest injector and it still peaks a gallon or more before the other
>> cylinders Before gamis it was 2.5 gallons.. Has any one had this
>> problem? Any solutions?
>>
>> GAMI does not why the fuel is so unbalanced in this engine. I have 95
>> hours on the engine and all compressions are good. No intake leaks.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>> N668G
>>
>>
>>
>> * *
>> * *
>> **
>> **
>> **
>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>> **
>> **
>> *http://forums.matronics.com* <http://forums.matronics.com*/>
>> **
>> **
>> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>> * *
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
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| Subject: | Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
See now there is where it gets crazy. You KNOW without a doubt
that there is a problem with the engine, yet you're going
to continue to fly it that way!?!?! Why? Try telling that
story to a few friends, how you know your fuel system
has a problem, but you're going to go fly it anyway, and see
what kind of reaction they give you. I understand the urge,
but to actually KNOW there is a problem, just fix it first.
The flow divider isn't that complicated on the precision
system. Like Dave said, there is a delicate diaphragm
and a couple other parts, but nothing extreme in there. Go
super slow, take pictures, and have someone there to observe
in case you drop something so you know how it all came apart,
and you should be able to investigate it. On a new airplane,
it's probably something that was in a hose that made it's
way there and is plugging an orifice. If you don't want to
disassemble it yourself, that's fine, and anyone can respect
that....but calling the engine maker isn't necessarily the
best path either....you can always call Precision directly.
It's THEIR fuel system. The engine maker will probably have
the answer, but you're certainly not utilizing all the
resources you can to find the issue. Me, I'd probably
call the local A&P and have him come over and I'd pay him
a little cash to look at it with me. He probably has
experience with them if he's been around a while. He may
even have a good manual on hand (something that would be
nice for you to have too). Then you could get it dealt with
in short order. When it comes right down to it, you
or someone else is either going to be disassembling the thing,
or you're going to be shipping it off for repair/replacement,
but there are only 2 ultimate resolutions.
Flying it ROP will just guarantee that your one cylinder
is going to be running at a different power level and
have different cylinder pressures and things going on than
your other cylinders. You're going to get more
carbon fouling on your good cylinders, or cause some other
things along the way by continuing to fly it.
Sorry to sound harsh, but the last thing we need is someone
out there flying engines in RV-10's with known defects to
not only hurt themselves, but hurt the RV-10's reputation
again. So far of the ones that bought it, at least two of
the 3 that we know of that killed people can be traced
to stupid decisions...and I guess someone has to speak up
when they see it happening. Fuel system issues are one of
the primary mechanical causes of homebuilt aircraft crashes.
Stupid decisions are another major one. Combine the two
and it just makes me cringe. Dan was pretty flippant about
that battery terminal crimp he did when he moved that
battery. But, he'd have had to delay that trip (the one
that he was prepping for that cost him his life) if he'd have
had to wait for the proper tools to crimp the wire. Looks
like maybe waiting that extra day or few might have been
a better choice.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 8/28/2010 2:22 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> Dave,
>
> Mine is a precision silver hawk ex. No call back from Mattituck. Will
> have to wait to Monday. Will have to continue to fly rich of peak this
> weekend.
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Dave Saylor
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 28, 2010 3:02 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> Before I took the contaminated one apart, I called the engine shop to
> find out what to expect. That was a Bendix flow divider, not an AFP. AFP
> might walk someone through a teardown. I'd call them before I took one
> of their dividers apart, which is what I'd recommend for anyone. After
> that it's up to the builder to decide if he's capable or not.
>
> The Bendix divider was pretty simple inside. It was a few years ago but
> I remember a fairly delicate diaphragm, a vertical stem that acts as the
> valve, and a light spring. Just go slow and be careful, and it should go
> OK. I actually found the bit of hose that was causing the problem but it
> was pretty obvious, not buried deep inside one of the internal passages.
> That was pure luck.
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:16 AM, John Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com
> <mailto:johnwcox@pacificnw.com>> wrote:
>
> Dave, you say you changed it. That is what I did with an Airflow
> Performance divider. They were fast and it was piece of mind insurance.
> the aircraft ran fine afterwards. Do you support, OBAM builders opening
> up their flow dividers.
>
> John Cox
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> on behalf of Dave Saylor
> *Sent:* Thu 8/26/2010 9:32 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> I've seen two flow divider failures in the last 5 years. One had a
> little speck of hose liner (from a certified hose shop) jammed in the
> stem. The engine would barely run.
>
> The other was discovered looking for excessive roughness LOP. We changed
> just about everything we could think of, and finally changed the flow
> divider just to be thorough. That fixed the problem, but we never did
> figure out why.
>
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Alan Mekler <amekler@metrocast.net
> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>> wrote:
>
> Kelly,
>
> My engine has had the AD done but we did find an interesting finding. We
> did the bottle test with the injectors on and we saw less fuel coming
> out #5 even though it had the richest injector. So now we know the
> problem must be in the flow divider. Not sure what the next step will
> be. Will try calling Precision tomorrow.
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>] *On Behalf Of *Kelly McMullen
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:07 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security
> of the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the
> safety wire.
> AD 2008-08-14
> SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment
> adopting emergency
> airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all
> known U.S. owners and
> operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO,
> IVO, and HIO series
> reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and
> Superior Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
> series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5
> and RSA-10 series fuel
> injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel
> injection servo plugs, part number
> (P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded
> plug hole on the regulator
> cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with
> servo plug gasket, P/N
> 365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a
> lean running engine, which
> could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss
> of control of the airplane
>
> (f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by
> attempting to turn it by
> hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the
> plug moves, it is loose.
> (g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
> (h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
> (1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the
> servo plug and regulator
> cover only.
> (2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533,
> that is behind the plug, is
> not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
> (3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for
> damage. Threads should be
> smooth and consistent, with no burrs or chips. The servo plug outer
> diameter threads should also
> measure within 0.7419-0.7500-inch.
> (4) If the threads on either the servo plug or the regulator cover are
> damaged, or do not measure
> within the limits in paragraph (h)(3) of this AD, the servo is not
> eligible for any installation and must
> be replaced before further flight.
> (5) Inspect the gasket, P/N 365533, for tears and other damage. We are
> allowing the re-use of
> undamaged gaskets. Replace damaged gaskets with a new gasket, P/N 365533.
> (6) When reassembling, do not install any servo plug or regulator cover
> that is not eligible for
> installation. Install the gasket onto the servo plug and reassemble the
> servo plug to the regulator
> cover.
> (7) Torque the servo plug to a new, higher torque of 90-100 in-lbs, to
> help maintain the proper
> clamp-up force against the plug and cover.
> (8) Safety wire the servo plug with 0.025-inch diameter wire to the
> regulator cover. Information
> on properly safety wiring the plug can be found in Precision Airmotive
> LLC Mandatory Service
> Bulletin No. PRS-107, Revision 1, dated March 6, 2008.
> (9) Inspect all other safety wire on the servo. Replace any that are
> damaged.
>
>
> On 8/22/2010 4:32 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
>
> Patrick,
>
> Which SB are you referring to?
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick Thyssen
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a
> wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the
> injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your
> boost pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is
> in all the glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but
> since you have different injectors it won't work that way.
> Just my way of checking.
> Patrick Thyssen
> Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I
> just checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
>
>
> --- On *Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler /<amekler@metrocast.net>
> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Alan Mekler <amekler@metrocast.net> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 6:00 PM
>
> Patrick,
>
> Give me the details of the coke bottle test. Im going to try switching
> probes.
>
> The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick Thyssen
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH
> INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe
> swap a few probes and see what you get.
> Patrick Thyssen
>
> --- On *Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen /<kellym@aviating.com>
> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 3:46 PM
>
> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>
>
>
> About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
> builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
> the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
> each
> cylinder.................................................................................
>
> Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
> arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
> inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
> anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
> the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
> Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
> that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
>
> On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>
>>
>> Kelly,
>> I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
>> injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J plus)
>> Alan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
>> Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 8:13 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>>
> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>
>>
>> Perhaps you are working on the wrong end of the problem. #3&4 are
>> peaking last, so must be too rich. The rest of the cylinders are peaking
>> within 0.4gph of #5. You also will need to gather measurements every 0.2
>> gph to better detect the peaks once you get those two cylinders closer
>> to the rest.
>>
>> On 8/21/2010 3:59 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
>> > Patrick,
>> >
>> > Before switching to the GAMIs my cylinder #5 peaked at 2.5 gallons l
>> > than my richest cylinder #3. After changing to GAMIs (my 3^rd set) I'm
>> > down to a 1 gallon spread. GAMI has given me the richest injector they
>> > make for cylinder # 5 but it still peaks early.
>> >
>> > Here is my latest flight data flying at 7000 MSL 22 inches/ 2400 rpm.
>> >
>> > Alan
>> >
>> > 13 12.5 12.1 11.7 11.3 11.0 10.5 10.3 Fuel flow gal/hr
>> >
>> > 1420 1438 1468 1474 1453 1438 1422 1403 cylinder #1
>> >
>> > 1381 1398 1428 1452 1447 1437 1412 1373 cylinder #2
>> >
>> > 1393 1409 1438 1456 1473 1468 1448 1414 cylinder #3
>> >
>> > 1400 1417 1449 1468 1477 1470 1450 1414 cylinder #4
>> >
>> > 1434 1467 1469 1443 1415 1411 1400 1435 cylinder # 5
>> >
>> > 1410 1430 1463 1474 1458 1441 1420 1397 cylinder #6
>> >
>> > other method
>> >
>> > cylinder #1 1472 peak @ 11.5
>> >
>> > cylinder #2 1451 peak@ 11.2
>> >
>> > cylinder #3 1472 peak @ 11.1
>> >
>> > cylinder#4 1477 peak @ 11.2
>> >
>> > cylinder #5 1473 peak @ 12.1
>> >
>> > cylinder #6 1474 peak @ 11.5
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
>> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick
>> > Thyssen
>> > *Sent:* Saturday, August 21, 2010 5:22 PM
>> > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>> >
>> > ? Have you done the coke bottle check? Has anyone messed with the
>> > lines from the spider to injectors? Are we sure the lines are the
>> > right ones? The other thing have you had any problems with your EGT
>> > system. Could your EGT probes be bad?
>> > Peaking or not peaking where they should?
>> > Just a few thoughts
>> > Patrick Thyssen
>> >
>> > --- On *Sat, 8/21/10, Alan Mekler /<amekler@metrocast.net>
> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>/* wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Alan Mekler<amekler@metrocast.net> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>
>> > Subject: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> > Date: Saturday, August 21, 2010, 11:04 AM
>> >
>> > I have been trying the GAMI injectors( on the 4^th set now) but found
>> > the fuel flow on the cylinders varies widely. My cylinder #5 has the
>> > richest injector and it still peaks a gallon or more before the other
>> > cylinders Before gamis it was 2.5 gallons.. Has any one had this
>> > problem? Any solutions?
>> >
>> > GAMI does not why the fuel is so unbalanced in this engine. I have 95
>> > hours on the engine and all compressions are good. No intake leaks.
>> >
>> > Alan
>> >
>> > N668G
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > * *
>> > * *
>> > **
>> > **
>> > **
>> > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>> > **
>> > **
>> > *http://forums.matronics.com* <http://forums.matronics.com*/>
>> > **
>> > **
>> > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>> > * *
>> > *
>> >
>> >
>> > *
>>
> >atronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> <http://gtatronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>"
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
Here, here. The temptation to fly is very strong, especially because
it turned out okay last time. Just remember, accidents occur from a
chain of bad decisions and unfortunate happenings. Break the chain and
you stay safe.
On 8/28/2010 12:58 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> See now there is where it gets crazy. You KNOW without a doubt
> that there is a problem with the engine, yet you're going
> to continue to fly it that way!?!?!
Message 6
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| Subject: | TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
Tim,
I was not the builder of my plane. My A&P also an AI has done all the
trouble shooting. EGT spread is less than 50 degrees when flying 100 degrees
rich of peak.(that's how I have been flying it) At full throttle cylinder #1
runs hotter than cylinder #5. My mechanic called Mattituck because they are
the Precision Service center closest to us and Mattituck has been trouble
shooting the problem with us. The engine only has 100 hours and is still
under warranty. There is no engine roughness unless I try flying lean of
peak.
My A&P saw no problem with flying the airplane. I'll know more on Monday
when we hear from Mattituck but it is most likely we will send the unit in
for service.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
See now there is where it gets crazy. You KNOW without a doubt
that there is a problem with the engine, yet you're going
to continue to fly it that way!?!?! Why? Try telling that
story to a few friends, how you know your fuel system
has a problem, but you're going to go fly it anyway, and see
what kind of reaction they give you. I understand the urge,
but to actually KNOW there is a problem, just fix it first.
The flow divider isn't that complicated on the precision
system. Like Dave said, there is a delicate diaphragm
and a couple other parts, but nothing extreme in there. Go
super slow, take pictures, and have someone there to observe
in case you drop something so you know how it all came apart,
and you should be able to investigate it. On a new airplane,
it's probably something that was in a hose that made it's
way there and is plugging an orifice. If you don't want to
disassemble it yourself, that's fine, and anyone can respect
that....but calling the engine maker isn't necessarily the
best path either....you can always call Precision directly.
It's THEIR fuel system. The engine maker will probably have
the answer, but you're certainly not utilizing all the
resources you can to find the issue. Me, I'd probably
call the local A&P and have him come over and I'd pay him
a little cash to look at it with me. He probably has
experience with them if he's been around a while. He may
even have a good manual on hand (something that would be
nice for you to have too). Then you could get it dealt with
in short order. When it comes right down to it, you
or someone else is either going to be disassembling the thing,
or you're going to be shipping it off for repair/replacement,
but there are only 2 ultimate resolutions.
Flying it ROP will just guarantee that your one cylinder
is going to be running at a different power level and
have different cylinder pressures and things going on than
your other cylinders. You're going to get more
carbon fouling on your good cylinders, or cause some other
things along the way by continuing to fly it.
Sorry to sound harsh, but the last thing we need is someone
out there flying engines in RV-10's with known defects to
not only hurt themselves, but hurt the RV-10's reputation
again. So far of the ones that bought it, at least two of
the 3 that we know of that killed people can be traced
to stupid decisions...and I guess someone has to speak up
when they see it happening. Fuel system issues are one of
the primary mechanical causes of homebuilt aircraft crashes.
Stupid decisions are another major one. Combine the two
and it just makes me cringe. Dan was pretty flippant about
that battery terminal crimp he did when he moved that
battery. But, he'd have had to delay that trip (the one
that he was prepping for that cost him his life) if he'd have
had to wait for the proper tools to crimp the wire. Looks
like maybe waiting that extra day or few might have been
a better choice.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 8/28/2010 2:22 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> Dave,
>
> Mine is a precision silver hawk ex. No call back from Mattituck. Will
> have to wait to Monday. Will have to continue to fly rich of peak this
> weekend.
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Dave Saylor
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 28, 2010 3:02 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> Before I took the contaminated one apart, I called the engine shop to
> find out what to expect. That was a Bendix flow divider, not an AFP. AFP
> might walk someone through a teardown. I'd call them before I took one
> of their dividers apart, which is what I'd recommend for anyone. After
> that it's up to the builder to decide if he's capable or not.
>
> The Bendix divider was pretty simple inside. It was a few years ago but
> I remember a fairly delicate diaphragm, a vertical stem that acts as the
> valve, and a light spring. Just go slow and be careful, and it should go
> OK. I actually found the bit of hose that was causing the problem but it
> was pretty obvious, not buried deep inside one of the internal passages.
> That was pure luck.
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:16 AM, John Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com
> <mailto:johnwcox@pacificnw.com>> wrote:
>
> Dave, you say you changed it. That is what I did with an Airflow
> Performance divider. They were fast and it was piece of mind insurance.
> the aircraft ran fine afterwards. Do you support, OBAM builders opening
> up their flow dividers.
>
> John Cox
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> on behalf of Dave Saylor
> *Sent:* Thu 8/26/2010 9:32 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> I've seen two flow divider failures in the last 5 years. One had a
> little speck of hose liner (from a certified hose shop) jammed in the
> stem. The engine would barely run.
>
> The other was discovered looking for excessive roughness LOP. We changed
> just about everything we could think of, and finally changed the flow
> divider just to be thorough. That fixed the problem, but we never did
> figure out why.
>
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Alan Mekler <amekler@metrocast.net
> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>> wrote:
>
> Kelly,
>
> My engine has had the AD done but we did find an interesting finding. We
> did the bottle test with the injectors on and we saw less fuel coming
> out #5 even though it had the richest injector. So now we know the
> problem must be in the flow divider. Not sure what the next step will
> be. Will try calling Precision tomorrow.
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>] *On Behalf Of *Kelly
McMullen
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:07 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security
> of the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the
> safety wire.
> AD 2008-08-14
> SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment
> adopting emergency
> airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all
> known U.S. owners and
> operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO,
> IVO, and HIO series
> reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and
> Superior Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
> series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5
> and RSA-10 series fuel
> injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel
> injection servo plugs, part number
> (P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded
> plug hole on the regulator
> cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with
> servo plug gasket, P/N
> 365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a
> lean running engine, which
> could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss
> of control of the airplane
>
> (f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by
> attempting to turn it by
> hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the
> plug moves, it is loose.
> (g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
> (h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
> (1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the
> servo plug and regulator
> cover only.
> (2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533,
> that is behind the plug, is
> not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
> (3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for
> damage. Threads should be
> smooth and consistent, with no burrs or chips. The servo plug outer
> diameter threads should also
> measure within 0.7419-0.7500-inch.
> (4) If the threads on either the servo plug or the regulator cover are
> damaged, or do not measure
> within the limits in paragraph (h)(3) of this AD, the servo is not
> eligible for any installation and must
> be replaced before further flight.
> (5) Inspect the gasket, P/N 365533, for tears and other damage. We are
> allowing the re-use of
> undamaged gaskets. Replace damaged gaskets with a new gasket, P/N 365533.
> (6) When reassembling, do not install any servo plug or regulator cover
> that is not eligible for
> installation. Install the gasket onto the servo plug and reassemble the
> servo plug to the regulator
> cover.
> (7) Torque the servo plug to a new, higher torque of 90-100 in-lbs, to
> help maintain the proper
> clamp-up force against the plug and cover.
> (8) Safety wire the servo plug with 0.025-inch diameter wire to the
> regulator cover. Information
> on properly safety wiring the plug can be found in Precision Airmotive
> LLC Mandatory Service
> Bulletin No. PRS-107, Revision 1, dated March 6, 2008.
> (9) Inspect all other safety wire on the servo. Replace any that are
> damaged.
>
>
> On 8/22/2010 4:32 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
>
> Patrick,
>
> Which SB are you referring to?
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick
Thyssen
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a
> wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the
> injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your
> boost pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is
> in all the glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but
> since you have different injectors it won't work that way.
> Just my way of checking.
> Patrick Thyssen
> Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I
> just checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
>
>
> --- On *Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler /<amekler@metrocast.net>
> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Alan Mekler <amekler@metrocast.net> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 6:00 PM
>
> Patrick,
>
> Give me the details of the coke bottle test. I'm going to try switching
> probes.
>
> The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick
Thyssen
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH
> INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe
> swap a few probes and see what you get.
> Patrick Thyssen
>
> --- On *Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen /<kellym@aviating.com>
> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 3:46 PM
>
> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>
>
>
> About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
> builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
> the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
> each
>
cylinder....................................................................
.............
>
> Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
> arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
> inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
> anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
> the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
> Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
> that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
>
> On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>
>>
>> Kelly,
>> I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
>> injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J
plus)
>> Alan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
>> Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 8:13 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>>
> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>
>>
>> Perhaps you are working on the wrong end of the problem. #3&4 are
>> peaking last, so must be too rich. The rest of the cylinders are peaking
>> within 0.4gph of #5. You also will need to gather measurements every 0.2
>> gph to better detect the peaks once you get those two cylinders closer
>> to the rest.
>>
>> On 8/21/2010 3:59 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
>> > Patrick,
>> >
>> > Before switching to the GAMIs my cylinder #5 peaked at 2.5 gallons l
>> > than my richest cylinder #3. After changing to GAMIs (my 3^rd set) I'm
>> > down to a 1 gallon spread. GAMI has given me the richest injector they
>> > make for cylinder # 5 but it still peaks early.
>> >
>> > Here is my latest flight data flying at 7000 MSL 22 inches/ 2400 rpm.
>> >
>> > Alan
>> >
>> > 13 12.5 12.1 11.7 11.3 11.0 10.5 10.3 Fuel flow gal/hr
>> >
>> > 1420 1438 1468 1474 1453 1438 1422 1403 cylinder #1
>> >
>> > 1381 1398 1428 1452 1447 1437 1412 1373 cylinder #2
>> >
>> > 1393 1409 1438 1456 1473 1468 1448 1414 cylinder #3
>> >
>> > 1400 1417 1449 1468 1477 1470 1450 1414 cylinder #4
>> >
>> > 1434 1467 1469 1443 1415 1411 1400 1435 cylinder # 5
>> >
>> > 1410 1430 1463 1474 1458 1441 1420 1397 cylinder #6
>> >
>> > other method
>> >
>> > cylinder #1 1472 peak @ 11.5
>> >
>> > cylinder #2 1451 peak@ 11.2
>> >
>> > cylinder #3 1472 peak @ 11.1
>> >
>> > cylinder#4 1477 peak @ 11.2
>> >
>> > cylinder #5 1473 peak @ 12.1
>> >
>> > cylinder #6 1474 peak @ 11.5
>> >
>> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
>> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick
>> > Thyssen
>> > *Sent:* Saturday, August 21, 2010 5:22 PM
>> > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>> >
>> > ? Have you done the coke bottle check? Has anyone messed with the
>> > lines from the spider to injectors? Are we sure the lines are the
>> > right ones? The other thing have you had any problems with your EGT
>> > system. Could your EGT probes be bad?
>> > Peaking or not peaking where they should?
>> > Just a few thoughts
>> > Patrick Thyssen
>> >
>> > --- On *Sat, 8/21/10, Alan Mekler /<amekler@metrocast.net>
> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>/* wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Alan Mekler<amekler@metrocast.net> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>
>> > Subject: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> > Date: Saturday, August 21, 2010, 11:04 AM
>> >
>> > I have been trying the GAMI injectors( on the 4^th set now) but found
>> > the fuel flow on the cylinders varies widely. My cylinder #5 has the
>> > richest injector and it still peaks a gallon or more before the other
>> > cylinders Before gamis it was 2.5 gallons.. Has any one had this
>> > problem? Any solutions?
>> >
>> > GAMI does not why the fuel is so unbalanced in this engine. I have 95
>> > hours on the engine and all compressions are good. No intake leaks.
>> >
>> > Alan
>> >
>> > N668G
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > * *
>> > * *
>> > **
>> > **
>> > **
>> > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>> > **
>> > **
>> > *http://forums.matronics.com* <http://forums.matronics.com*/>
>> > **
>> > **
>> > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>> > * *
>> > *
>> >
>> >
>> > *
>>
> >atronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> <http://gtatronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.co=======================
> <http://www.matronics.co========================/>
> http://www.matronics.com/cont===============
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * Navigator to*
>
> * *
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*href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?RV10-List*
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> *Web*
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> *href="http://forums.matronics.com"
<http://forums.matronics.com/>>http://forums.matronics.com
<http://forums.matronics.com/>*
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=========== *
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<http://www.matronics=======%3cbr%3e%3cbr%3e%3c/font%3e%3c/b%3e%3cfont%20col
or=>*
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or=>_*
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or=>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
<http://www.matronics=======%3cbr%3e%3cbr%3e%3c/font%3e%3c/b%3e%3cfont%20col
or=>_*
>
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>
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*href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?RV10-List*
>
> *href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com*
>
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*href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contr
ibution*
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> *get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
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>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
Alan,
Let me politely, but violently disagree with your A&P. Something is
blocking flow in your flow divider. You have proved that. What you and
your A&P can NOT assure is that whatever is blocking the flow won't
move and completely stop the flow. You cannot be assured of stable
fuel flow. That is why you should NOT fly it until it is fixed. I'm
sure Mattituck will make it right, pronto.
Kelly
A&P/IA
EAA Tech Counselor
On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Alan Mekler <amekler@metrocast.net> wrote:
>
> Tim,
> I was not the builder of my plane. My A&P also an AI has done all the
> trouble shooting. EGT spread is less than 50 degrees when flying 100 degrees
> rich of peak.(that's how I have been flying it) At full throttle cylinder #1
> runs hotter than cylinder #5. My mechanic called Mattituck because they are
> the Precision Service center closest to us and Mattituck has been trouble
> shooting the problem with us. The engine only has 100 hours and is still
> under warranty. There is no engine roughness unless I try flying lean of
> peak.
> My A&P saw no problem with flying the airplane. I'll know more on Monday
> when we hear from Mattituck but it is most likely we will send the unit in
> for service.
> Alan
Message 8
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| Subject: | TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
Kelly,
I see your point. I'll stay on the ground this weekend.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
Alan,
Let me politely, but violently disagree with your A&P. Something is
blocking flow in your flow divider. You have proved that. What you and
your A&P can NOT assure is that whatever is blocking the flow won't
move and completely stop the flow. You cannot be assured of stable
fuel flow. That is why you should NOT fly it until it is fixed. I'm
sure Mattituck will make it right, pronto.
Kelly
A&P/IA
EAA Tech Counselor
On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Alan Mekler <amekler@metrocast.net> wrote:
>
> Tim,
> I was not the builder of my plane. My A&P also an AI has done all the
> trouble shooting. EGT spread is less than 50 degrees when flying 100
degrees
> rich of peak.(that's how I have been flying it) At full throttle cylinder
#1
> runs hotter than cylinder #5. My mechanic called Mattituck because they
are
> the Precision Service center closest to us and Mattituck has been trouble
> shooting the problem with us. The engine only has 100 hours and is still
> under warranty. There is no engine roughness unless I try flying lean of
> peak.
> My A&P saw no problem with flying the airplane. I'll know more on Monday
> when we hear from Mattituck but it is most likely we will send the unit in
> for service.
> Alan
Message 9
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| Subject: | TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
I've been following this tread and wonder if we are all on the same page
regarding exhaust gas temperatures.
My understanding of the ROP or LOP convention is that the actual EGT value
is of little concern. What is of concern is each cylinders EGT relative to
that specific cylinder's peak EGT. Considering the EGT probes work over a
wide range of temperatures and that each probe installation varies between
cylinders, the absolute exhaust gas temperature spread between cylinders is
of little value other than for gross indication that you have lost a
cylinder.
For example, cylinder #1 may peak at 1450, #2 at 1475, #3 at 1500 and #4 at
1525. If they all peak at the same time and same fuel flow, then you have a
perfect situation. Running my engine I look for the spread between
cylinders of degree below each peak. The Grand Rapid EIS makes this real
easy as the leaning page remembers peak cylinder temperature, then displays
not actual EGT, but degrees below peak EGT for each cylinder. I suggest
that a balance system is, when steady, all cylinders on the same side of
peak (LOP or ROP), and the degrees below peak of each cylinder is within 20
degrees.
The other way to look at this is total engine fuel flow at each cylinder
peak. I find this not as accurate as the fuel flow indication is 0.1 GPH
increments and at steady operation my vary .2 GPH (other may have a more
stable indication than mine). I believe the cylinder EGT tends to be a more
sensitive analysis.
Confirmation of balanced operation may be comparison of CHT actual
temperatures between cylinders. Note however baffle cooling variances can
cause some temperature spread not related to fuel flow.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (560 hrs, most done LOP)
RV-10 (systems install)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Mekler
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 5:06 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
Tim,
I was not the builder of my plane. My A&P also an AI has done all the
trouble shooting. EGT spread is less than 50 degrees when flying 100 degrees
rich of peak.(that's how I have been flying it) At full throttle cylinder #1
runs hotter than cylinder #5. My mechanic called Mattituck because they are
the Precision Service center closest to us and Mattituck has been trouble
shooting the problem with us. The engine only has 100 hours and is still
under warranty. There is no engine roughness unless I try flying lean of
peak.
My A&P saw no problem with flying the airplane. I'll know more on Monday
when we hear from Mattituck but it is most likely we will send the unit in
for service.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
See now there is where it gets crazy. You KNOW without a doubt
that there is a problem with the engine, yet you're going
to continue to fly it that way!?!?! Why? Try telling that
story to a few friends, how you know your fuel system
has a problem, but you're going to go fly it anyway, and see
what kind of reaction they give you. I understand the urge,
but to actually KNOW there is a problem, just fix it first.
The flow divider isn't that complicated on the precision
system. Like Dave said, there is a delicate diaphragm
and a couple other parts, but nothing extreme in there. Go
super slow, take pictures, and have someone there to observe
in case you drop something so you know how it all came apart,
and you should be able to investigate it. On a new airplane,
it's probably something that was in a hose that made it's
way there and is plugging an orifice. If you don't want to
disassemble it yourself, that's fine, and anyone can respect
that....but calling the engine maker isn't necessarily the
best path either....you can always call Precision directly.
It's THEIR fuel system. The engine maker will probably have
the answer, but you're certainly not utilizing all the
resources you can to find the issue. Me, I'd probably
call the local A&P and have him come over and I'd pay him
a little cash to look at it with me. He probably has
experience with them if he's been around a while. He may
even have a good manual on hand (something that would be
nice for you to have too). Then you could get it dealt with
in short order. When it comes right down to it, you
or someone else is either going to be disassembling the thing,
or you're going to be shipping it off for repair/replacement,
but there are only 2 ultimate resolutions.
Flying it ROP will just guarantee that your one cylinder
is going to be running at a different power level and
have different cylinder pressures and things going on than
your other cylinders. You're going to get more
carbon fouling on your good cylinders, or cause some other
things along the way by continuing to fly it.
Sorry to sound harsh, but the last thing we need is someone
out there flying engines in RV-10's with known defects to
not only hurt themselves, but hurt the RV-10's reputation
again. So far of the ones that bought it, at least two of
the 3 that we know of that killed people can be traced
to stupid decisions...and I guess someone has to speak up
when they see it happening. Fuel system issues are one of
the primary mechanical causes of homebuilt aircraft crashes.
Stupid decisions are another major one. Combine the two
and it just makes me cringe. Dan was pretty flippant about
that battery terminal crimp he did when he moved that
battery. But, he'd have had to delay that trip (the one
that he was prepping for that cost him his life) if he'd have
had to wait for the proper tools to crimp the wire. Looks
like maybe waiting that extra day or few might have been
a better choice.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 8/28/2010 2:22 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> Dave,
>
> Mine is a precision silver hawk ex. No call back from Mattituck. Will
> have to wait to Monday. Will have to continue to fly rich of peak this
> weekend.
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Dave Saylor
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 28, 2010 3:02 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> Before I took the contaminated one apart, I called the engine shop to
> find out what to expect. That was a Bendix flow divider, not an AFP. AFP
> might walk someone through a teardown. I'd call them before I took one
> of their dividers apart, which is what I'd recommend for anyone. After
> that it's up to the builder to decide if he's capable or not.
>
> The Bendix divider was pretty simple inside. It was a few years ago but
> I remember a fairly delicate diaphragm, a vertical stem that acts as the
> valve, and a light spring. Just go slow and be careful, and it should go
> OK. I actually found the bit of hose that was causing the problem but it
> was pretty obvious, not buried deep inside one of the internal passages.
> That was pure luck.
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:16 AM, John Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com
> <mailto:johnwcox@pacificnw.com>> wrote:
>
> Dave, you say you changed it. That is what I did with an Airflow
> Performance divider. They were fast and it was piece of mind insurance.
> the aircraft ran fine afterwards. Do you support, OBAM builders opening
> up their flow dividers.
>
> John Cox
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> on behalf of Dave Saylor
> *Sent:* Thu 8/26/2010 9:32 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> I've seen two flow divider failures in the last 5 years. One had a
> little speck of hose liner (from a certified hose shop) jammed in the
> stem. The engine would barely run.
>
> The other was discovered looking for excessive roughness LOP. We changed
> just about everything we could think of, and finally changed the flow
> divider just to be thorough. That fixed the problem, but we never did
> figure out why.
>
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Alan Mekler <amekler@metrocast.net
> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>> wrote:
>
> Kelly,
>
> My engine has had the AD done but we did find an interesting finding. We
> did the bottle test with the injectors on and we saw less fuel coming
> out #5 even though it had the richest injector. So now we know the
> problem must be in the flow divider. Not sure what the next step will
> be. Will try calling Precision tomorrow.
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>] *On Behalf Of *Kelly
McMullen
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:07 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security
> of the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the
> safety wire.
> AD 2008-08-14
> SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment
> adopting emergency
> airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all
> known U.S. owners and
> operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO,
> IVO, and HIO series
> reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and
> Superior Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
> series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5
> and RSA-10 series fuel
> injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel
> injection servo plugs, part number
> (P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded
> plug hole on the regulator
> cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with
> servo plug gasket, P/N
> 365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a
> lean running engine, which
> could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss
> of control of the airplane
>
> (f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by
> attempting to turn it by
> hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the
> plug moves, it is loose.
> (g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
> (h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
> (1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the
> servo plug and regulator
> cover only.
> (2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533,
> that is behind the plug, is
> not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
> (3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for
> damage. Threads should be
> smooth and consistent, with no burrs or chips. The servo plug outer
> diameter threads should also
> measure within 0.7419-0.7500-inch.
> (4) If the threads on either the servo plug or the regulator cover are
> damaged, or do not measure
> within the limits in paragraph (h)(3) of this AD, the servo is not
> eligible for any installation and must
> be replaced before further flight.
> (5) Inspect the gasket, P/N 365533, for tears and other damage. We are
> allowing the re-use of
> undamaged gaskets. Replace damaged gaskets with a new gasket, P/N 365533.
> (6) When reassembling, do not install any servo plug or regulator cover
> that is not eligible for
> installation. Install the gasket onto the servo plug and reassemble the
> servo plug to the regulator
> cover.
> (7) Torque the servo plug to a new, higher torque of 90-100 in-lbs, to
> help maintain the proper
> clamp-up force against the plug and cover.
> (8) Safety wire the servo plug with 0.025-inch diameter wire to the
> regulator cover. Information
> on properly safety wiring the plug can be found in Precision Airmotive
> LLC Mandatory Service
> Bulletin No. PRS-107, Revision 1, dated March 6, 2008.
> (9) Inspect all other safety wire on the servo. Replace any that are
> damaged.
>
>
> On 8/22/2010 4:32 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
>
> Patrick,
>
> Which SB are you referring to?
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick
Thyssen
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a
> wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the
> injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your
> boost pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is
> in all the glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but
> since you have different injectors it won't work that way.
> Just my way of checking.
> Patrick Thyssen
> Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I
> just checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
>
>
> --- On *Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler /<amekler@metrocast.net>
> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Alan Mekler <amekler@metrocast.net> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 6:00 PM
>
> Patrick,
>
> Give me the details of the coke bottle test. I'm going to try switching
> probes.
>
> The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick
Thyssen
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH
> INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe
> swap a few probes and see what you get.
> Patrick Thyssen
>
> --- On *Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen /<kellym@aviating.com>
> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 3:46 PM
>
> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>
>
>
> About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
> builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
> the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
> each
>
cylinder....................................................................
.............
>
> Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
> arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
> inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
> anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
> the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
> Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
> that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
>
> On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>
>>
>> Kelly,
>> I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
>> injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J
plus)
>> Alan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
>> Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 8:13 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>>
> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>
>>
>> Perhaps you are working on the wrong end of the problem. #3&4 are
>> peaking last, so must be too rich. The rest of the cylinders are peaking
>> within 0.4gph of #5. You also will need to gather measurements every 0.2
>> gph to better detect the peaks once you get those two cylinders closer
>> to the rest.
>>
>> On 8/21/2010 3:59 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
>> > Patrick,
>> >
>> > Before switching to the GAMIs my cylinder #5 peaked at 2.5 gallons l
>> > than my richest cylinder #3. After changing to GAMIs (my 3^rd set) I'm
>> > down to a 1 gallon spread. GAMI has given me the richest injector they
>> > make for cylinder # 5 but it still peaks early.
>> >
>> > Here is my latest flight data flying at 7000 MSL 22 inches/ 2400 rpm.
>> >
>> > Alan
>> >
>> > 13 12.5 12.1 11.7 11.3 11.0 10.5 10.3 Fuel flow gal/hr
>> >
>> > 1420 1438 1468 1474 1453 1438 1422 1403 cylinder #1
>> >
>> > 1381 1398 1428 1452 1447 1437 1412 1373 cylinder #2
>> >
>> > 1393 1409 1438 1456 1473 1468 1448 1414 cylinder #3
>> >
>> > 1400 1417 1449 1468 1477 1470 1450 1414 cylinder #4
>> >
>> > 1434 1467 1469 1443 1415 1411 1400 1435 cylinder # 5
>> >
>> > 1410 1430 1463 1474 1458 1441 1420 1397 cylinder #6
>> >
>> > other method
>> >
>> > cylinder #1 1472 peak @ 11.5
>> >
>> > cylinder #2 1451 peak@ 11.2
>> >
>> > cylinder #3 1472 peak @ 11.1
>> >
>> > cylinder#4 1477 peak @ 11.2
>> >
>> > cylinder #5 1473 peak @ 12.1
>> >
>> > cylinder #6 1474 peak @ 11.5
>> >
>> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
>> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick
>> > Thyssen
>> > *Sent:* Saturday, August 21, 2010 5:22 PM
>> > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>> >
>> > ? Have you done the coke bottle check? Has anyone messed with the
>> > lines from the spider to injectors? Are we sure the lines are the
>> > right ones? The other thing have you had any problems with your EGT
>> > system. Could your EGT probes be bad?
>> > Peaking or not peaking where they should?
>> > Just a few thoughts
>> > Patrick Thyssen
>> >
>> > --- On *Sat, 8/21/10, Alan Mekler /<amekler@metrocast.net>
> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>/* wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Alan Mekler<amekler@metrocast.net> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>
>> > Subject: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> > Date: Saturday, August 21, 2010, 11:04 AM
>> >
>> > I have been trying the GAMI injectors( on the 4^th set now) but found
>> > the fuel flow on the cylinders varies widely. My cylinder #5 has the
>> > richest injector and it still peaks a gallon or more before the other
>> > cylinders Before gamis it was 2.5 gallons.. Has any one had this
>> > problem? Any solutions?
>> >
>> > GAMI does not why the fuel is so unbalanced in this engine. I have 95
>> > hours on the engine and all compressions are good. No intake leaks.
>> >
>> > Alan
>> >
>> > N668G
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > * *
>> > * *
>> > **
>> > **
>> > **
>> > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>> > **
>> > **
>> > *http://forums.matronics.com* <http://forums.matronics.com*/>
>> > **
>> > **
>> > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>> > * *
>> > *
>> >
>> >
>> > *
>>
> >atronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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Message 10
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| Subject: | TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
Carl,
You are correct. All of my cylinders each peaked at 1476 but at different
fuel flows. Because cylinder 5 pealed over a gallon richer than the others
I new there was a problem with it not getting enough fuel.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Froehlich
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 6:10 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
<carl.froehlich@verizon.net>
I've been following this tread and wonder if we are all on the same page
regarding exhaust gas temperatures.
My understanding of the ROP or LOP convention is that the actual EGT value
is of little concern. What is of concern is each cylinders EGT relative to
that specific cylinder's peak EGT. Considering the EGT probes work over a
wide range of temperatures and that each probe installation varies between
cylinders, the absolute exhaust gas temperature spread between cylinders is
of little value other than for gross indication that you have lost a
cylinder.
For example, cylinder #1 may peak at 1450, #2 at 1475, #3 at 1500 and #4 at
1525. If they all peak at the same time and same fuel flow, then you have a
perfect situation. Running my engine I look for the spread between
cylinders of degree below each peak. The Grand Rapid EIS makes this real
easy as the leaning page remembers peak cylinder temperature, then displays
not actual EGT, but degrees below peak EGT for each cylinder. I suggest
that a balance system is, when steady, all cylinders on the same side of
peak (LOP or ROP), and the degrees below peak of each cylinder is within 20
degrees.
The other way to look at this is total engine fuel flow at each cylinder
peak. I find this not as accurate as the fuel flow indication is 0.1 GPH
increments and at steady operation my vary .2 GPH (other may have a more
stable indication than mine). I believe the cylinder EGT tends to be a more
sensitive analysis.
Confirmation of balanced operation may be comparison of CHT actual
temperatures between cylinders. Note however baffle cooling variances can
cause some temperature spread not related to fuel flow.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (560 hrs, most done LOP)
RV-10 (systems install)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Mekler
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 5:06 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
Tim,
I was not the builder of my plane. My A&P also an AI has done all the
trouble shooting. EGT spread is less than 50 degrees when flying 100 degrees
rich of peak.(that's how I have been flying it) At full throttle cylinder #1
runs hotter than cylinder #5. My mechanic called Mattituck because they are
the Precision Service center closest to us and Mattituck has been trouble
shooting the problem with us. The engine only has 100 hours and is still
under warranty. There is no engine roughness unless I try flying lean of
peak.
My A&P saw no problem with flying the airplane. I'll know more on Monday
when we hear from Mattituck but it is most likely we will send the unit in
for service.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
See now there is where it gets crazy. You KNOW without a doubt
that there is a problem with the engine, yet you're going
to continue to fly it that way!?!?! Why? Try telling that
story to a few friends, how you know your fuel system
has a problem, but you're going to go fly it anyway, and see
what kind of reaction they give you. I understand the urge,
but to actually KNOW there is a problem, just fix it first.
The flow divider isn't that complicated on the precision
system. Like Dave said, there is a delicate diaphragm
and a couple other parts, but nothing extreme in there. Go
super slow, take pictures, and have someone there to observe
in case you drop something so you know how it all came apart,
and you should be able to investigate it. On a new airplane,
it's probably something that was in a hose that made it's
way there and is plugging an orifice. If you don't want to
disassemble it yourself, that's fine, and anyone can respect
that....but calling the engine maker isn't necessarily the
best path either....you can always call Precision directly.
It's THEIR fuel system. The engine maker will probably have
the answer, but you're certainly not utilizing all the
resources you can to find the issue. Me, I'd probably
call the local A&P and have him come over and I'd pay him
a little cash to look at it with me. He probably has
experience with them if he's been around a while. He may
even have a good manual on hand (something that would be
nice for you to have too). Then you could get it dealt with
in short order. When it comes right down to it, you
or someone else is either going to be disassembling the thing,
or you're going to be shipping it off for repair/replacement,
but there are only 2 ultimate resolutions.
Flying it ROP will just guarantee that your one cylinder
is going to be running at a different power level and
have different cylinder pressures and things going on than
your other cylinders. You're going to get more
carbon fouling on your good cylinders, or cause some other
things along the way by continuing to fly it.
Sorry to sound harsh, but the last thing we need is someone
out there flying engines in RV-10's with known defects to
not only hurt themselves, but hurt the RV-10's reputation
again. So far of the ones that bought it, at least two of
the 3 that we know of that killed people can be traced
to stupid decisions...and I guess someone has to speak up
when they see it happening. Fuel system issues are one of
the primary mechanical causes of homebuilt aircraft crashes.
Stupid decisions are another major one. Combine the two
and it just makes me cringe. Dan was pretty flippant about
that battery terminal crimp he did when he moved that
battery. But, he'd have had to delay that trip (the one
that he was prepping for that cost him his life) if he'd have
had to wait for the proper tools to crimp the wire. Looks
like maybe waiting that extra day or few might have been
a better choice.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 8/28/2010 2:22 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> Dave,
>
> Mine is a precision silver hawk ex. No call back from Mattituck. Will
> have to wait to Monday. Will have to continue to fly rich of peak this
> weekend.
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Dave Saylor
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 28, 2010 3:02 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> Before I took the contaminated one apart, I called the engine shop to
> find out what to expect. That was a Bendix flow divider, not an AFP. AFP
> might walk someone through a teardown. I'd call them before I took one
> of their dividers apart, which is what I'd recommend for anyone. After
> that it's up to the builder to decide if he's capable or not.
>
> The Bendix divider was pretty simple inside. It was a few years ago but
> I remember a fairly delicate diaphragm, a vertical stem that acts as the
> valve, and a light spring. Just go slow and be careful, and it should go
> OK. I actually found the bit of hose that was causing the problem but it
> was pretty obvious, not buried deep inside one of the internal passages.
> That was pure luck.
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:16 AM, John Cox <johnwcox@pacificnw.com
> <mailto:johnwcox@pacificnw.com>> wrote:
>
> Dave, you say you changed it. That is what I did with an Airflow
> Performance divider. They were fast and it was piece of mind insurance.
> the aircraft ran fine afterwards. Do you support, OBAM builders opening
> up their flow dividers.
>
> John Cox
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> on behalf of Dave Saylor
> *Sent:* Thu 8/26/2010 9:32 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> I've seen two flow divider failures in the last 5 years. One had a
> little speck of hose liner (from a certified hose shop) jammed in the
> stem. The engine would barely run.
>
> The other was discovered looking for excessive roughness LOP. We changed
> just about everything we could think of, and finally changed the flow
> divider just to be thorough. That fixed the problem, but we never did
> figure out why.
>
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Alan Mekler <amekler@metrocast.net
> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>> wrote:
>
> Kelly,
>
> My engine has had the AD done but we did find an interesting finding. We
> did the bottle test with the injectors on and we saw less fuel coming
> out #5 even though it had the richest injector. So now we know the
> problem must be in the flow divider. Not sure what the next step will
> be. Will try calling Precision tomorrow.
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>] *On Behalf Of *Kelly
McMullen
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:07 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security
> of the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the
> safety wire.
> AD 2008-08-14
> SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment
> adopting emergency
> airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all
> known U.S. owners and
> operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO,
> IVO, and HIO series
> reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and
> Superior Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
> series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5
> and RSA-10 series fuel
> injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel
> injection servo plugs, part number
> (P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded
> plug hole on the regulator
> cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with
> servo plug gasket, P/N
> 365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a
> lean running engine, which
> could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss
> of control of the airplane
>
> (f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by
> attempting to turn it by
> hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the
> plug moves, it is loose.
> (g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
> (h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
> (1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the
> servo plug and regulator
> cover only.
> (2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533,
> that is behind the plug, is
> not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
> (3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for
> damage. Threads should be
> smooth and consistent, with no burrs or chips. The servo plug outer
> diameter threads should also
> measure within 0.7419-0.7500-inch.
> (4) If the threads on either the servo plug or the regulator cover are
> damaged, or do not measure
> within the limits in paragraph (h)(3) of this AD, the servo is not
> eligible for any installation and must
> be replaced before further flight.
> (5) Inspect the gasket, P/N 365533, for tears and other damage. We are
> allowing the re-use of
> undamaged gaskets. Replace damaged gaskets with a new gasket, P/N 365533.
> (6) When reassembling, do not install any servo plug or regulator cover
> that is not eligible for
> installation. Install the gasket onto the servo plug and reassemble the
> servo plug to the regulator
> cover.
> (7) Torque the servo plug to a new, higher torque of 90-100 in-lbs, to
> help maintain the proper
> clamp-up force against the plug and cover.
> (8) Safety wire the servo plug with 0.025-inch diameter wire to the
> regulator cover. Information
> on properly safety wiring the plug can be found in Precision Airmotive
> LLC Mandatory Service
> Bulletin No. PRS-107, Revision 1, dated March 6, 2008.
> (9) Inspect all other safety wire on the servo. Replace any that are
> damaged.
>
>
> On 8/22/2010 4:32 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
>
> Patrick,
>
> Which SB are you referring to?
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick
Thyssen
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* RE: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a
> wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the
> injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your
> boost pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is
> in all the glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but
> since you have different injectors it won't work that way.
> Just my way of checking.
> Patrick Thyssen
> Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I
> just checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
>
>
> --- On *Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler /<amekler@metrocast.net>
> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Alan Mekler <amekler@metrocast.net> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>
> Subject: RE: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 6:00 PM
>
> Patrick,
>
> Give me the details of the coke bottle test. I'm going to try switching
> probes.
>
> The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick
Thyssen
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>
> HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH
> INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe
> swap a few probes and see what you get.
> Patrick Thyssen
>
> --- On *Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen /<kellym@aviating.com>
> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 3:46 PM
>
> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>
>
>
> About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
> builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
> the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
> each
>
cylinder....................................................................
.............
>
> Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
> arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
> inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
> anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
> the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
> Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
> that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
>
> On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>
>>
>> Kelly,
>> I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
>> injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J
plus)
>> Alan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
>> Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 8:13 PM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>>
> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>
>>
>> Perhaps you are working on the wrong end of the problem. #3&4 are
>> peaking last, so must be too rich. The rest of the cylinders are peaking
>> within 0.4gph of #5. You also will need to gather measurements every 0.2
>> gph to better detect the peaks once you get those two cylinders closer
>> to the rest.
>>
>> On 8/21/2010 3:59 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
>> > Patrick,
>> >
>> > Before switching to the GAMIs my cylinder #5 peaked at 2.5 gallons l
>> > than my richest cylinder #3. After changing to GAMIs (my 3^rd set) I'm
>> > down to a 1 gallon spread. GAMI has given me the richest injector they
>> > make for cylinder # 5 but it still peaks early.
>> >
>> > Here is my latest flight data flying at 7000 MSL 22 inches/ 2400 rpm.
>> >
>> > Alan
>> >
>> > 13 12.5 12.1 11.7 11.3 11.0 10.5 10.3 Fuel flow gal/hr
>> >
>> > 1420 1438 1468 1474 1453 1438 1422 1403 cylinder #1
>> >
>> > 1381 1398 1428 1452 1447 1437 1412 1373 cylinder #2
>> >
>> > 1393 1409 1438 1456 1473 1468 1448 1414 cylinder #3
>> >
>> > 1400 1417 1449 1468 1477 1470 1450 1414 cylinder #4
>> >
>> > 1434 1467 1469 1443 1415 1411 1400 1435 cylinder # 5
>> >
>> > 1410 1430 1463 1474 1458 1441 1420 1397 cylinder #6
>> >
>> > other method
>> >
>> > cylinder #1 1472 peak @ 11.5
>> >
>> > cylinder #2 1451 peak@ 11.2
>> >
>> > cylinder #3 1472 peak @ 11.1
>> >
>> > cylinder#4 1477 peak @ 11.2
>> >
>> > cylinder #5 1473 peak @ 12.1
>> >
>> > cylinder #6 1474 peak @ 11.5
>> >
>> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
>> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Patrick
>> > Thyssen
>> > *Sent:* Saturday, August 21, 2010 5:22 PM
>> > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>> >
>> > ? Have you done the coke bottle check? Has anyone messed with the
>> > lines from the spider to injectors? Are we sure the lines are the
>> > right ones? The other thing have you had any problems with your EGT
>> > system. Could your EGT probes be bad?
>> > Peaking or not peaking where they should?
>> > Just a few thoughts
>> > Patrick Thyssen
>> >
>> > --- On *Sat, 8/21/10, Alan Mekler /<amekler@metrocast.net>
> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>/* wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Alan Mekler<amekler@metrocast.net> <mailto:amekler@metrocast.net>
>> > Subject: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
>> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> > Date: Saturday, August 21, 2010, 11:04 AM
>> >
>> > I have been trying the GAMI injectors( on the 4^th set now) but found
>> > the fuel flow on the cylinders varies widely. My cylinder #5 has the
>> > richest injector and it still peaks a gallon or more before the other
>> > cylinders Before gamis it was 2.5 gallons.. Has any one had this
>> > problem? Any solutions?
>> >
>> > GAMI does not why the fuel is so unbalanced in this engine. I have 95
>> > hours on the engine and all compressions are good. No intake leaks.
>> >
>> > Alan
>> >
>> > N668G
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > * *
>> > * *
>> > **
>> > **
>> > **
>> > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
>> > **
>> > **
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>> > **
>> > **
>> > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>> > * *
>> > *
>> >
>> >
>> > *
>>
> >atronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
Yes and no. You are correct, the actual EGT temp on any one cylinder
does not matter relative to other cylinders. The actual EGT on a
normally aspirated engine should be somewhere between 1200 and 1300
degrees at full power on sea level takeoff with full rich. One should
not attempt to make all EGTs be the same for all cylinders at a given
mixture setting.
What you really want is all cylinders to peak at the same FUEL FLOW
indication, and it doesn't matter what EGT they are reading at that
time. Typically you are doing very well if all peak within 0.2gph of
each other. If the spread is more than 0.5 gph, you want to do some
refinement to get smoother running and ability to go further lean of
peak. If you install all EGT probes the exact same distance below the
cylinder flange, and in the same relative position, you MAY get the
EGTs pretty close at the same time they are all peaking, no
guarantees, and it doesn't mean much anyway. A couple of the GAMI
gurus see as much as 90 degree EGT spread at the point that all
cylinders are peaking, and they say don't fret over it.
On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Carl Froehlich
<carl.froehlich@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> I've been following this tread and wonder if we are all on the same page
> regarding exhaust gas temperatures.
>
> My understanding of the ROP or LOP convention is that the actual EGT value
> is of little concern. What is of concern is each cylinders EGT relative to
> that specific cylinder's peak EGT. Considering the EGT probes work over a
> wide range of temperatures and that each probe installation varies between
> cylinders, the absolute exhaust gas temperature spread between cylinders is
> of little value other than for gross indication that you have lost a
> cylinder.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: lessons learned installing plexiglas with Weld-on |
10
AirMike wrote:
>
> This has been discussed many times before on this forum, just my $.02 - I am
not sure that there is any way to properly retain the windows in place without
a high probability of getting cracks if you use weld-on. The stuff sucks, but
nobody has come up with a substitute that will perform the same function of making
the windows structurally bond.
>
Why does there need to be a structural bond? Any small physical change
will result in the breaking of the acrylic. Also there are many
'structural adhesives' that don't harden, but you'd still have trouble
getting a 1/2" glue joint to fail.
Linn
> --------
> OSH '10 or Bust
> Q/B - finally done
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310274#310274
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: lessons learned installing plexiglas with Weld-on 10 |
It does make me wonder. The non-hardening version of PRC is used in
other aircraft to bond the plexi to the structure. Seems to work
pretty well. Can't see how plexi adds much strength to the fiberglass.
On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> AirMike wrote:
>>
>>
>> This has been discussed many times before on this forum, just my $.02 - I
>> am not sure that there is any way to properly retain the windows in place
>> without a high probability of getting cracks if you use weld-on. The stuff
>> sucks, but nobody has come up with a substitute that will perform the same
>> function of making the windows structurally bond.
>>
>
> Why does there need to be a structural bond? Any small physical change will
> result in the breaking of the acrylic. Also there are many 'structural
> adhesives' that don't harden, but you'd still have trouble getting a 1/2"
> glue joint to fail.
> Linn
>
>> --------
>> OSH '10 or Bust Q/B - finally done
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310274#310274
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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