Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:22 AM - Re: Post Replies (Kevin Belue)
2. 06:06 AM - Re: Post Replies (Tim Olson)
3. 06:40 AM - Re: Final fitting of the doors (jayb)
4. 08:04 AM - Re: Post Replies (Dj Merrill)
5. 08:38 AM - Re: Post Replies (John Cox)
6. 09:35 AM - Van's Homecoming (Vernon Smith)
7. 05:41 PM - Re: Tool question - anyone familiar with Enderes tools? (Bill Mauledriver Watson)
8. 07:23 PM - Re: Post Replies (Simon Wilson)
9. 08:40 PM - Re: Post Replies (Rick)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Post Replies |
It's not the way I want to do it...
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 30, 2010, at 7:09 PM, Dj Merrill <deej@deej.net> wrote:
>
> On 8/30/2010 5:21 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>>
>> Given your document reference is 15 years old, and that all the major
>> email software programs(Microsoft, etc) by default use top posting,
>> not to mention it is far easier to read with preview panes, where you
>> don't have to look at the quote unless you want to, I'd say it is open
>> for debate, and is settled as which primer to use. ;-)
>
>
> The road rules for the US were established far longer than 15 years
> ago. Instead of everyone driving on the right side of the road, should
> each of us just arbitrarily pick the left or right side of the road on a
> whim?
>
> English grammar was also established more than 15 years ago. If you
> are reading a page in a novel written in English, do you read it from
> the top of the page down, or do you read it from the bottom of the page
> up? Should we arbitrarily have some pages on a novel read top down, and
> others bottom up?
>
> US road rules were made so we could at least make an attempt at being
> polite drivers and to minimize chaos on the roads. RFC 1855 was written
> to offer guidelines on how to be a polite Internet Citizen to help
> minimize chaos and increase understanding. English grammar is an
> attempt to offer rules and guidelines so that we can understand the
> written message based around a common framework.
>
> Top posting is in violation of both the Netiquette Guidelines AND
> English grammar. Why propagate a behaviour that is in clear opposition
> to the way that we read and understand the English language and also
> published Internet Guidelines?
>
> -Dj
>
> --
> Dj Merrill - N1JOV
> Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
> Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/
> Join us on the New England Aviation Forums - http://forum.deej.net/
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Post Replies |
I wasn't going to continue the thread, but I guess I'll
throw in one more, top posted of course. ;)
I think that back when text based news readers (remember
reading "newsgroups"?") and non-graphical email clients
like we used to use (like "elm" and "pine") were the popular
email clients, this mattered a whole lot more. The
mail was read by keystrokes, no mouses were used, and
you couldn't scroll through anything. Back then, if
you wanted to read a conversation, it would take a lot
of work to follow a thread.
These days, every mail reader I've used when you hit
reply, it top posts the reply, including "alpine", the
"new pine" text client. The idea is to keep your work
to a minimum, so you hit reply, and start typing. If
someone wants to read the prior post, they can scroll
for it. And since almost ALL email clients top reply,
it's "the new standard", just like even though many of
us wish Microsoft wasn't the desktop OS standard, it just
is.
I receive often over 100 emails at work a day, and my
Thunderbird threaded mail reader works awesome for
threaded emails. In fact, in thread view, it gives
you the top lines of the replies in the thread so you
can be on one email and basically get the gist of
everyone's conversation. But it pulls that data
from the top of the post.
Also, on the iphone and all other mail clients I use,
when the message goes into the message pane, it's
going to display the email from the top down.
Since I follow the threads and delete as I go, I
don't really CARE what the previous text was most
of the time. I just want to quickly read the new
reply, and then delete it. If I had to scroll to
the bottom to read the reply (especially while using
my iphone....while driving 85mph on the freeway of
course ;) ), it would be much more cumbersome to
read peoples replies. Without top posting, AND trimming
the repetition out of the post, it would quickly
become too annoying to even read mail. At least
with top posting, when someone includes all the
past thread in their reply (either by accident or
ignorance or lazyness), then I don't have to suffer
through it.
So really, whereas I know there was a time when
keyboard based reading made scrolling hard, these days
I think more overall work would have to be done
to read bottom posted emails than top posted emails.
The scroll factor alone would cause me MUCH more work
every day. Also, I would say that 99.5% of my email
replies I receive are top posted. These days when
I get that ONE proper bottom post reply, it actually
is annoying, because I have to scroll through crap
to read it.
If that makes me a bad net citizen, oh well, but the
tide has shifted far too much to go back, so I guess
I say, go with the flow....we're now driving on the
other side of the road.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 8/30/2010 7:09 PM, Dj Merrill wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill<deej@deej.net>
>
> On 8/30/2010 5:21 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen<apilot2@gmail.com>
>>
>> Given your document reference is 15 years old, and that all the major
>> email software programs(Microsoft, etc) by default use top posting,
>> not to mention it is far easier to read with preview panes, where you
>> don't have to look at the quote unless you want to, I'd say it is open
>> for debate, and is settled as which primer to use. ;-)
>
>
> The road rules for the US were established far longer than 15 years
> ago. Instead of everyone driving on the right side of the road, should
> each of us just arbitrarily pick the left or right side of the road on a
> whim?
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Final fitting of the doors |
Can you post a couple of photos?
Thanks,
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=310796#310796
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Post Replies |
On 08/31/2010 09:05 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
> These days, every mail reader I've used when you hit
> reply, it top posts the reply, including "alpine", the
> "new pine" text client. The idea is to keep your work
> to a minimum, so you hit reply, and start typing.
It may keep your work to a minimum, but it makes a huge mess out of the
email replies when people do this, which was the original complaint that
started off this thread. Whether top or bottom posting, if people do
not make that very little extra effort to trim the rest of the message,
it creates a lot more work for the rest of us to attempt to understand
the resulting mess of a message. Just hitting reply and start typing,
and not doing any trimming is a Bad Thing(tm).
In other words, a very little amount of extra work on the part of
person replying to TRIM, saves work for ALL of the people reading and
attempting to understand the reply, which added together exceeds the
little extra work it would take for the person replying to trim the message.
Net sum = trimming the message saves the most amount of work for
everyone involved.
> I receive often over 100 emails at work a day, and my
> Thunderbird threaded mail reader works awesome for
> threaded emails.
In Thunderbird, go to Account Settings, Composition and Addressing,
select "Automatically quite the original message when replying", and in
the drop down box select "Start my reply below the quote". See, it is
very easy for you to become a polite Internet Citizen, too! :-)
> If that makes me a bad net citizen, oh well,
*shrug* All we can do is try to educate people to be polite in our
society. If they choose to be rude, well, I guess there isn't much we
can do about it, but it sure isn't very nice to the other people.
I work in higher education, so reading comprehension is a big deal in
my environment. Using the English language means organizing your
message so that the recipients are reading from the top down for best
reading comprehension. If that means someone has to spend a little
extra effort in order to format their email properly so that the
recipient has a better chance of understanding the message, then that is
a good investment of time.
We wouldn't take lazy, sloppy shortcuts when building our airplanes, so
why do it when communicating with other builders about those airplanes?
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/
Join us on the New England Aviation Forums - http://forum.deej.net/
Message 5
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Time Management on the part of the latest reply is why people don't trim.
So why waste bandwidth on your lengthy closing signature line? I am a lowe
r education style reader out in the untamed Wild West where the RV-10 was c
onceived..... James McClow where are you now - I miss the ole live build C
am? I am all confused most of the time now which I thought was just due to
old age.
Speed of the Read... now that has marketing value.
John Cox
do not archive
From: Dj Merrill
Sent: Tue 8/31/2010 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Post Replies
Net sum = trimming the message saves the most amount of work for
everyone involved.
I work in higher education, so reading comprehension is a big deal in
my environment. Using the English language means organizing your
message so that the recipients are reading from the top down for best
reading comprehension. If that means someone has to spend a little
extra effort in order to format their email properly so that the
recipient has a better chance of understanding the message, then that is
a good investment of time.
We wouldn't take lazy, sloppy shortcuts when building our airplanes, so
why do it when communicating with other builders about those airplanes?
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/
Join us on the New England Aviation Forums - http://forum.deej.net/
Message 6
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| Subject: | Van's Homecoming |
Hi All=2C
It's been a while=2C but for those who didn't make it to Van's Homecoming I
put together a short video of the event. Here is the link http://www.youtu
be.com/watch?v=0MTC5Ki2ltg.Enjoy=2C
Vern Smith (40324 sold)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Tool question - anyone familiar with Enderes tools? |
I'm going to give them a look. Thanks.
Bill "dreaming about tools while fooling around with paint" Watson
On 8/30/2010 9:00 PM, EFDsteve@aol.com wrote:
> My hands-down best phillips head screw drivers have been using Dewalt
> tips on various drivers.
> Steve Weinstock
> 40230
> fuse
> In a message dated 8/30/2010 7:56:06 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> martinaerodrome@gmail.com writes:
>
> I have sold Enderes tools in my hardware store and used them
> myself for over 30 years. I think that they aare of the best
> quality. I also have never had a warranty problem with Enderes.
> Good Luck
> Dick Martin
> RV8 N23M
> the fast one
>
>
> *
>
> ===================================
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 8
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Come on guys, what's all the fuss.
Top posts are there because that is where you start reading AT THE TOP. As
for the rest, the solution is easy DON'T READ IT.
The bandwidth used on these text only messages is minimal.
Cheers
Simon
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill
Sent: Wednesday, 1 September 2010 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Post Replies
On 08/31/2010 09:05 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
> These days, every mail reader I've used when you hit
> reply, it top posts the reply, including "alpine", the
> "new pine" text client. The idea is to keep your work
> to a minimum, so you hit reply, and start typing.
It may keep your work to a minimum, but it makes a huge mess out of
the
email replies when people do this, which was the original complaint that
started off this thread. Whether top or bottom posting, if people do
not make that very little extra effort to trim the rest of the message,
it creates a lot more work for the rest of us to attempt to understand
the resulting mess of a message. Just hitting reply and start typing,
and not doing any trimming is a Bad Thing(tm).
In other words, a very little amount of extra work on the part of
person replying to TRIM, saves work for ALL of the people reading and
attempting to understand the reply, which added together exceeds the
little extra work it would take for the person replying to trim the message.
Net sum = trimming the message saves the most amount of work for
everyone involved.
> I receive often over 100 emails at work a day, and my
> Thunderbird threaded mail reader works awesome for
> threaded emails.
In Thunderbird, go to Account Settings, Composition and Addressing,
select "Automatically quite the original message when replying", and in
the drop down box select "Start my reply below the quote". See, it is
very easy for you to become a polite Internet Citizen, too! :-)
> If that makes me a bad net citizen, oh well,
*shrug* All we can do is try to educate people to be polite in our
society. If they choose to be rude, well, I guess there isn't much we
can do about it, but it sure isn't very nice to the other people.
I work in higher education, so reading comprehension is a big deal
in
my environment. Using the English language means organizing your
message so that the recipients are reading from the top down for best
reading comprehension. If that means someone has to spend a little
extra effort in order to format their email properly so that the
recipient has a better chance of understanding the message, then that is
a good investment of time.
We wouldn't take lazy, sloppy shortcuts when building our airplanes,
so
why do it when communicating with other builders about those airplanes?
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/
Join us on the New England Aviation Forums - http://forum.deej.net/
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Post Replies |
Jeez I agree...this horse is dead, butchered and cooked well
done...I'm flying but don't the rest of you have airplanes to
build..you to Chris!!! You started this!! :)
Rick
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 31, 2010, at 7:18 PM, "Simon Wilson" <simon@sertech.com.au>
wrote:
>
> Come on guys, what's all the fuss.
>
> Top posts are there because that is where you start reading AT THE
> TOP. As
> for the rest, the solution is easy DON'T READ IT.
>
> The bandwidth used on these text only messages is minimal.
>
> Cheers
> Simon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill
> Sent: Wednesday, 1 September 2010 1:03 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Post Replies
>
>
> On 08/31/2010 09:05 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
>> These days, every mail reader I've used when you hit
>> reply, it top posts the reply, including "alpine", the
>> "new pine" text client. The idea is to keep your work
>> to a minimum, so you hit reply, and start typing.
>
>
> It may keep your work to a minimum, but it makes a huge mess out of
> the
> email replies when people do this, which was the original complaint
> that
> started off this thread. Whether top or bottom posting, if people do
> not make that very little extra effort to trim the rest of the
> message,
> it creates a lot more work for the rest of us to attempt to understand
> the resulting mess of a message. Just hitting reply and start typing,
> and not doing any trimming is a Bad Thing(tm).
>
> In other words, a very little amount of extra work on the part of
> person replying to TRIM, saves work for ALL of the people reading and
> attempting to understand the reply, which added together exceeds the
> little extra work it would take for the person replying to trim the
> message.
>
> Net sum = trimming the message saves the most amount of work for
> everyone involved.
>
>
>> I receive often over 100 emails at work a day, and my
>> Thunderbird threaded mail reader works awesome for
>> threaded emails.
>
> In Thunderbird, go to Account Settings, Composition and Addressing,
> select "Automatically quite the original message when replying", and
> in
> the drop down box select "Start my reply below the quote". See, it is
> very easy for you to become a polite Internet Citizen, too! :-)
>
>
>> If that makes me a bad net citizen, oh well,
>
> *shrug* All we can do is try to educate people to be polite in our
> society. If they choose to be rude, well, I guess there isn't much we
> can do about it, but it sure isn't very nice to the other people.
>
> I work in higher education, so reading comprehension is a big deal
> in
> my environment. Using the English language means organizing your
> message so that the recipients are reading from the top down for best
> reading comprehension. If that means someone has to spend a little
> extra effort in order to format their email properly so that the
> recipient has a better chance of understanding the message, then
> that is
> a good investment of time.
>
> We wouldn't take lazy, sloppy shortcuts when building our
> airplanes,
> so
> why do it when communicating with other builders about those
> airplanes?
>
> -Dj
>
> --
> Dj Merrill - N1JOV
> Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/
> sportsman/
> Grumman Yankee Driver N9870L - http://deej.net/yankee/
> Join us on the New England Aviation Forums - http://forum.deej.net/
>
>
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