Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:08 AM - Re: Re: performance ()
2. 05:25 AM - Re: Re: performance (pitch trim) (Marcus Cooper)
3. 06:14 AM - Re: Re: performance (g.combs)
4. 06:14 AM - Re: Re: performance (pitch trim) (DLM)
5. 06:46 AM - Re: Re: performance (pitch trim) (Tim Olson)
6. 06:46 AM - Re: Re: performance (pitch trim) (Kevin Belue)
7. 06:54 AM - Re: Door handles (jayb)
8. 07:52 AM - Re: Re: performance (pitch trim) (Tim Olson)
9. 08:03 AM - Trutrak auto trim (DLM)
10. 08:14 AM - Re: Trutrak auto trim (Linn Walters)
11. 08:36 AM - Re: Trutrak auto trim (Rene Felker)
12. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: performance (pitch trim) (Kevin Belue)
13. 08:49 AM - Re: Trutrak auto trim (DLM)
14. 08:50 AM - Re: Re: performance (pitch trim) (Danny Riggs)
15. 08:51 AM - Re: Trutrak auto trim (Robin Marks)
16. 08:51 AM - Re: Trutrak auto trim (Tim Olson)
17. 09:11 AM - Re: Trutrak auto trim (Jesse Saint)
18. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: performance (pitch trim) (Dave Saylor)
19. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: performance (pitch trim) (Linn Walters)
20. 10:02 AM - Re: Trutrak auto trim (DLM)
21. 10:06 AM - Re: Trutrak auto trim (Linn Walters)
22. 10:14 AM - Re: Re: performance (pitch trim) (Kevin Belue)
23. 10:25 AM - Re: Trutrak auto trim (Robin Marks)
24. 10:25 AM - Re: Trutrak auto trim (Tim Olson)
25. 11:45 AM - Re: Trutrak auto trim (Seano)
26. 11:55 AM - Re: Trutrak auto trim (pilotdds)
27. 05:28 PM - Re: Re: performance (pitch trim) (Patrick Thyssen)
28. 07:27 PM - Re: performance (pitch trim) (Strasnuts)
29. 08:10 PM - Re: Re: performance (pitch trim) (Tim Olson)
30. 09:36 PM - Re: Re: performance (pitch trim) ()
Message 1
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When you purchase the auto trim ($350) from any of the vendors does it come with
any of the wiring or connectors for the retrofit setup? Jay Rowe
---- Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com> wrote:
> Keep in mind that you may end up tweaking the adjustment knob a few times to
> get the autotrim dialed in. Put it someplace that's not too inconvenient to
> access. Once it's dialed in, though, you'll never touch it again.
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 6:40 PM, g.combs <g.combs@aerosportmodeling.com>wrote:
>
> > Tim and all interested. The auto trim was very easy to install. It does
> > work with the TCW safety trim and trims in 3 sec intervals. So far
> > it has be great and worth every penny as I stated before. It took about 3
> > hours to install. I have attached some pictures that hopefully
> > will help. Also all wiring was done right by the Elevator trim servo. I did
> > wire directly into the trim servo wires going back to the trim servo
> > in the aft end of tailcone.
> >
> > Geoff
> > RV-10 N829GW
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
> > To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 4:46 PM
> > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: performance
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Anyone comment on how much wiring for a retrofit there would be?
> >> Looks like it has a big connector.
> >>
> >>
> >> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> >> do not archive
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9/21/2010 2:38 PM, kevino wrote:
> >>
> >>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "kevino"<kevino@worldwarehouse.com>
> >>>
> >>> Just to add another endorsement of the TT auto trim, i paid the 625 and
> >>> thought it was a bargain. Makes a huge difference shooting approaches. Also
> >>> added the safety trim which gives you two trim speeds which smooths out any
> >>> trim adjustments. I never see any out of trim indicator on the TT.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Read this topic online here:
> >>>
> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=313251#313251
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: performance (pitch trim) |
Since we have drifted into a pitch trim discussion, here's a basic problem I
recently encountered with a probable solution. My pitch works great pushing
for nose down trim, but the up portion has become intermittent. Certainly
not good and in trouble shooting I thought the motor in the trim servo had a
bad spot that would keep it from moving but would start if I could get it
repositioned by moving the other way (old school electric motor thinking I
suspect). I spoke to Andy at Ray Allen and apparently they had a number of
their REL-1 relays go bad and this was the symptom (works one way, but not
the other due to the relay failing internally). The new REL-2 relay is more
robust and fixes this. I will trouble shoot some more (get the system to
fail and tap on the relay was the guidance) and if confirmed Andy offered to
sell me a REL-2 at half price (makes it $23 from what I can tell).
Marcus
40286
Message 3
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No I had to make my own wire harness. Pretty easy
Geoff
Sent from my iPhone Geoff
On Sep 22, 2010, at 5:05 AM, <jfrjr@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
> When you purchase the auto trim ($350) from any of the vendors does
> it come with any of the wiring or connectors for the retrofit
> setup? Jay Rowe
> ---- Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Keep in mind that you may end up tweaking the adjustment knob a few
>> times to
>> get the autotrim dialed in. Put it someplace that's not too
>> inconvenient to
>> access. Once it's dialed in, though, you'll never touch it again.
>>
>> Dave Saylor
>> AirCrafters
>> 140 Aviation Way
>> Watsonville, CA 95076
>> 831-722-9141 Shop
>> 831-750-0284 Cell
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 6:40 PM, g.combs <g.combs@aerosportmodeling.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>>> Tim and all interested. The auto trim was very easy to install. It
>>> does
>>> work with the TCW safety trim and trims in 3 sec intervals. So far
>>> it has be great and worth every penny as I stated before. It took
>>> about 3
>>> hours to install. I have attached some pictures that hopefully
>>> will help. Also all wiring was done right by the Elevator trim
>>> servo. I did
>>> wire directly into the trim servo wires going back to the trim servo
>>> in the aft end of tailcone.
>>>
>>> Geoff
>>> RV-10 N829GW
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>>> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 4:46 PM
>>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: performance
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anyone comment on how much wiring for a retrofit there would be?
>>>> Looks like it has a big connector.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
>>>> do not archive
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9/21/2010 2:38 PM, kevino wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "kevino"<kevino@worldwarehouse.com
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> Just to add another endorsement of the TT auto trim, i paid the
>>>>> 625 and
>>>>> thought it was a bargain. Makes a huge difference shooting
>>>>> approaches. Also
>>>>> added the safety trim which gives you two trim speeds which
>>>>> smooths out any
>>>>> trim adjustments. I never see any out of trim indicator on the TT.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=313251#313251
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: performance (pitch trim) |
in addition, Ray Allen told me that the speed controller ($45) would also
slow the trim servo response to allow finer tuning. My "safety trim" is 2
pullable breakers that remove power to the trim and/or AP. I don't fly
substantially above Va.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@verizon.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 5:19 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: performance (pitch trim)
>
> Since we have drifted into a pitch trim discussion, here's a basic problem
> I
> recently encountered with a probable solution. My pitch works great
> pushing
> for nose down trim, but the up portion has become intermittent. Certainly
> not good and in trouble shooting I thought the motor in the trim servo had
> a
> bad spot that would keep it from moving but would start if I could get it
> repositioned by moving the other way (old school electric motor thinking I
> suspect). I spoke to Andy at Ray Allen and apparently they had a number
> of
> their REL-1 relays go bad and this was the symptom (works one way, but
> not
> the other due to the relay failing internally). The new REL-2 relay is
> more
> robust and fixes this. I will trouble shoot some more (get the system to
> fail and tap on the relay was the guidance) and if confirmed Andy offered
> to
> sell me a REL-2 at half price (makes it $23 from what I can tell).
>
> Marcus
> 40286
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: performance (pitch trim) |
Marcus,
You bring up a very old issue. Those Ray Allen REL-1 relays
are a long-standing known big issue. They've bitten many
people already. I had the same sticky relay issues, as did
other builders who were flying about the same amount of time
as I was at the time, back in 2007. Here's my write-up from
that time.
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/maintenance/20070729/index.html
It was exactly this sticky relay issue that pushed me over
the edge and made me investigate better options to those
relays for the trim. Those REL-1's are an accident waiting
to happen. The REL-2's may be better, but they're still a
lot lot tougher to wire up than the job needs to be.
That's what made me go to Safety-Trim, and I think it's one
of the more important safety things I've added to the plane.
Here was my write-up again from 2007.
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/upgrades/20071027/index.html
That's why on this thread, when the worry came up about
having Auto-Trim get in the way of safety trim, I was spooked.
Safety-Trim I think is something that every RV-10 owner
should have, at least for those who don't have the Vertical
Power stuff.
Anyway, sounds like with Bob's reply that I can at least
go ahead with auto-trim if I want to, and it won't cause me
issues with safety trim.
If you're still flying those relays though, I'd tell you to just
cut your losses now. A retrofit with Safety trim will give you
some good benefits, and considering all those little wires to
solder, it's actually a lot simpler to wire in.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 9/22/2010 7:19 AM, Marcus Cooper wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus Cooper"<coop85@verizon.net>
>
> Since we have drifted into a pitch trim discussion, here's a basic problem I
> recently encountered with a probable solution. My pitch works great pushing
> for nose down trim, but the up portion has become intermittent. Certainly
> not good and in trouble shooting I thought the motor in the trim servo had a
> bad spot that would keep it from moving but would start if I could get it
> repositioned by moving the other way (old school electric motor thinking I
> suspect). I spoke to Andy at Ray Allen and apparently they had a number of
> their REL-1 relays go bad and this was the symptom (works one way, but not
> the other due to the relay failing internally). The new REL-2 relay is more
> robust and fixes this. I will trouble shoot some more (get the system to
> fail and tap on the relay was the guidance) and if confirmed Andy offered to
> sell me a REL-2 at half price (makes it $23 from what I can tell).
>
> Marcus
> 40286
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: performance (pitch trim) |
Why use relays if the trim switches can handle the trim motor current? Relays are
just another part to fail. I wired my trim switches directly and they've worked
great for several years....
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 22, 2010, at 7:19 AM, "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Since we have drifted into a pitch trim discussion, here's a basic problem I
> recently encountered with a probable solution. My pitch works great pushing
> for nose down trim, but the up portion has become intermittent. Certainly
> not good and in trouble shooting I thought the motor in the trim servo had a
> bad spot that would keep it from moving but would start if I could get it
> repositioned by moving the other way (old school electric motor thinking I
> suspect). I spoke to Andy at Ray Allen and apparently they had a number of
> their REL-1 relays go bad and this was the symptom (works one way, but not
> the other due to the relay failing internally). The new REL-2 relay is more
> robust and fixes this. I will trouble shoot some more (get the system to
> fail and tap on the relay was the guidance) and if confirmed Andy offered to
> sell me a REL-2 at half price (makes it $23 from what I can tell).
>
> Marcus
> 40286
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Door handles |
Both my flush door handle bases have come out during door fit as well. These were
originally epoxied using flocked cotton and west systems. I am redoing both
with a base of the above plus reinforcing glass cross pieces... and am adding
a screw to the aft lip as it gets the most torque.
I'd suggest that the manufacturer add several lips in the handle base to allow
screws to be added where desired... Like this maybe:
^ ^
-----O
v v
My doors are REALLY tight too. I added lube and that helped some. Polishing the
pin tubes helps. I suspect that the root cause is that the pin tubes are not
running true throughout their movement cycle. I expect lots of small iterations
to get it right.
Regards,
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=313365#313365
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: performance (pitch trim) |
You pretty much need to if you're going to have multiple sticks
controlling the trim. You're right though that if you're only
going to have one trim switch, you could just use switches.
It's the dual-stick, or panel/stick multiple switches that
make you need a relay.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 9/22/2010 8:34 AM, Kevin Belue wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kevin Belue<kdbelue@charter.net>
>
> Why use relays if the trim switches can handle the trim motor
> current? Relays are just another part to fail. I wired my trim
> switches directly and they've worked great for several years....
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 22, 2010, at 7:19 AM, "Marcus Cooper"<coop85@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus
>> Cooper"<coop85@verizon.net>
>>
>> Since we have drifted into a pitch trim discussion, here's a basic
>> problem I recently encountered with a probable solution. My pitch
>> works great pushing for nose down trim, but the up portion has
>> become intermittent. Certainly not good and in trouble shooting I
>> thought the motor in the trim servo had a bad spot that would keep
>> it from moving but would start if I could get it repositioned by
>> moving the other way (old school electric motor thinking I
>> suspect). I spoke to Andy at Ray Allen and apparently they had a
>> number of their REL-1 relays go bad and this was the symptom
>> (works one way, but not the other due to the relay failing
>> internally). The new REL-2 relay is more robust and fixes this. I
>> will trouble shoot some more (get the system to fail and tap on the
>> relay was the guidance) and if confirmed Andy offered to sell me a
>> REL-2 at half price (makes it $23 from what I can tell).
>>
>> Marcus 40286
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Trutrak auto trim |
Just talked to Zak and determined the following.
1. when the AP is OFF or is not powered, the auto trim module reverts to
manual trim and internally reconnects the lines as though no auto trim
exists.
2. The auto trim does not lower the input voltage to the trim servo but
pulses the servo at standard voltage.
3. The rheostat on the trim box changes the pulse rate.
4. the cutting of the power wires to the trim servo is unknown when
connecting, the switch on the box allows reversal of the trim direction
depending on the hook up of the system.
5. The original 9 pin dub to the pitch servo is disconnected and a new
short cable is made to connect to the auto trim dsub. Additionally
another short dsub harness is made for the auto trim box to pitch servo
connection.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Trutrak auto trim |
All this talk of auto trim, manual trim, safety trim and slow trim
begs the question ...... has anyone found the trim system so bad that
they had to retrofit the trim system add-ons? Does the airplane get so
far out of trim that the AP kicks offline? Is all this cost,
complexity, and installation time necessary???
Just askin'.
Linn
On 9/22/2010 11:00 AM, DLM wrote:
> Just talked to Zak and determined the following.
> 1. when the AP is OFF or is not powered, the auto trim module reverts
> to manual trim and internally reconnects the lines as though no auto
> trim exists.
> 2. The auto trim does not lower the input voltage to the trim servo
> but pulses the servo at standard voltage.
> 3. The rheostat on the trim box changes the pulse rate.
> 4. the cutting of the power wires to the trim servo is unknown when
> connecting, the switch on the box allows reversal of the trim
> direction depending on the hook up of the system.
> 5. The original 9 pin dub to the pitch servo is disconnected and a new
> short cable is made to connect to the auto trim dsub. Additionally
> another short dsub harness is made for the auto trim box to pitch
> servo connection.
> *
>
>
> *
Message 11
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| Subject: | Trutrak auto trim |
Yes, it does get out of trim and kicks off. Has happened to me once or
twice. It happens when things get real busy and you are using the auto
pilot to help manage the work load..thus when you need it the most..it adds
to the work load.
Now to be clear. The autopilot does not disengage, just the servo. It
disengages for a second and then tries again. A little bit of trim in the
right direction and everything is fine again.
I think I am going to add the TT autotrim to my annual wish list. When I am
a couple of months out from the annual I will have to decide. This will
have to compete with the other item on the list. Upgrade of one of my GRT
screens...
Rene' Felker
N423CF
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Linn Walters
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Trutrak auto trim
All this talk of auto trim, manual trim, safety trim and slow trim begs the
question ...... has anyone found the trim system so bad that they had to
retrofit the trim system add-ons? Does the airplane get so far out of trim
that the AP kicks offline? Is all this cost, complexity, and installation
time necessary???
Just askin'.
Linn
On 9/22/2010 11:00 AM, DLM wrote:
Just talked to Zak and determined the following.
1. when the AP is OFF or is not powered, the auto trim module reverts to
manual trim and internally reconnects the lines as though no auto trim
exists.
2. The auto trim does not lower the input voltage to the trim servo but
pulses the servo at standard voltage.
3. The rheostat on the trim box changes the pulse rate.
4. the cutting of the power wires to the trim servo is unknown when
connecting, the switch on the box allows reversal of the trim direction
depending on the hook up of the system.
5. The original 9 pin dub to the pitch servo is disconnected and a new short
cable is made to connect to the auto trim dsub. Additionally another short
dsub harness is made for the auto trim box to pitch servo connection.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: performance (pitch trim) |
No, I have trim switches on both sticks. If it's wired right, no relays are needed
and either set of trim switches can control without shorting.
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 22, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
>
> You pretty much need to if you're going to have multiple sticks
> controlling the trim. You're right though that if you're only
> going to have one trim switch, you could just use switches.
> It's the dual-stick, or panel/stick multiple switches that
> make you need a relay.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
>
>
> On 9/22/2010 8:34 AM, Kevin Belue wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kevin Belue<kdbelue@charter.net>
>>
>> Why use relays if the trim switches can handle the trim motor
>> current? Relays are just another part to fail. I wired my trim
>> switches directly and they've worked great for several years....
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Sep 22, 2010, at 7:19 AM, "Marcus Cooper"<coop85@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus
>>> Cooper"<coop85@verizon.net>
>>>
>>> Since we have drifted into a pitch trim discussion, here's a basic
>>> problem I recently encountered with a probable solution. My pitch
>>> works great pushing for nose down trim, but the up portion has
>>> become intermittent. Certainly not good and in trouble shooting I
>>> thought the motor in the trim servo had a bad spot that would keep
>>> it from moving but would start if I could get it repositioned by
>>> moving the other way (old school electric motor thinking I
>>> suspect). I spoke to Andy at Ray Allen and apparently they had a
>>> number of their REL-1 relays go bad and this was the symptom
>>> (works one way, but not the other due to the relay failing
>>> internally). The new REL-2 relay is more robust and fixes this. I
>>> will trouble shoot some more (get the system to fail and tap on the
>>> relay was the guidance) and if confirmed Andy offered to sell me a
>>> REL-2 at half price (makes it $23 from what I can tell).
>>>
>>> Marcus 40286
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Trutrak auto trim |
The complexity is not for me; I can do all I need with a panel mounted
rocker switch accessible from either seat. My consideration is for my
wife who is not a pilot. She can be taught to land the aircraft in an
emergency but the Cheltons and the Digiflite II VSGV and auto trim
should make an incapacitated pilot incident approach to landing in any
weather less worrisome
----- Original Message -----
From: Linn Walters
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Trutrak auto trim
All this talk of auto trim, manual trim, safety trim and slow trim
begs the question ...... has anyone found the trim system so bad that
they had to retrofit the trim system add-ons? Does the airplane get so
far out of trim that the AP kicks offline? Is all this cost,
complexity, and installation time necessary???
Just askin'.
Linn
On 9/22/2010 11:00 AM, DLM wrote:
Just talked to Zak and determined the following.
1. when the AP is OFF or is not powered, the auto trim module
reverts to manual trim and internally reconnects the lines as though no
auto trim exists.
2. The auto trim does not lower the input voltage to the trim servo
but pulses the servo at standard voltage.
3. The rheostat on the trim box changes the pulse rate.
4. the cutting of the power wires to the trim servo is unknown when
connecting, the switch on the box allows reversal of the trim direction
depending on the hook up of the system.
5. The original 9 pin dub to the pitch servo is disconnected and a
new short cable is made to connect to the auto trim dsub. Additionally
another short dsub harness is made for the auto trim box to pitch servo
connection.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: performance (pitch trim) |
Make sure that the (usually tiny) switches can handle the trim motor curren
t. That's the only other thing you need a relay for besides multiple switch
array.
> Date: Wed=2C 22 Sep 2010 09:48:51 -0500
> From: Tim@myrv10.com
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: performance (pitch trim)
>
>
> You pretty much need to if you're going to have multiple sticks
> controlling the trim. You're right though that if you're only
> going to have one trim switch=2C you could just use switches.
> It's the dual-stick=2C or panel/stick multiple switches that
> make you need a relay.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
>
>
> On 9/22/2010 8:34 AM=2C Kevin Belue wrote:
> > --> RV10-List message posted by: Kevin Belue<kdbelue@charter.net>
> >
> > Why use relays if the trim switches can handle the trim motor
> > current? Relays are just another part to fail. I wired my trim
> > switches directly and they've worked great for several years....
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Sep 22=2C 2010=2C at 7:19 AM=2C "Marcus Cooper"<coop85@verizon.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus
> >> Cooper"<coop85@verizon.net>
> >>
> >> Since we have drifted into a pitch trim discussion=2C here's a basic
> >> problem I recently encountered with a probable solution. My pitch
> >> works great pushing for nose down trim=2C but the up portion has
> >> become intermittent. Certainly not good and in trouble shooting I
> >> thought the motor in the trim servo had a bad spot that would keep
> >> it from moving but would start if I could get it repositioned by
> >> moving the other way (old school electric motor thinking I
> >> suspect). I spoke to Andy at Ray Allen and apparently they had a
> >> number of their REL-1 relays go bad and this was the symptom
> >> (works one way=2C but not the other due to the relay failing
> >> internally). The new REL-2 relay is more robust and fixes this. I
> >> will trouble shoot some more (get the system to fail and tap on the
> >> relay was the guidance) and if confirmed Andy offered to sell me a
> >> REL-2 at half price (makes it $23 from what I can tell).
> >>
> >> Marcus 40286
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Trutrak auto trim |
I would go so far as to say a runaway trim in the 10 may not be survivable.
I have seen how difficult the plane was to hold straight & level with trim
at a substantially out of trim configuration but not nearly maxed out of
trim setting. It was all I could do to control the 10 at the relatively low
speeds of take off. If the same thing were to happen at cruise speed it
would be VERY ugly.
For the money spent a speed sensitive trim adjustment combined with a
runaway trim safety circuit represent the best insurance policy for this
type of issue IMHO. I own the Safety Trim but the VP sounds like a nice
option too.
I recall Tim=92s write up being substantially influential on the topic.
Robin
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Linn Walters
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 22, 2010 8:11 AM
*To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Trutrak auto trim
All this talk of auto trim, manual trim, safety trim and slow trim begs the
question ...... has anyone found the trim system so bad that they had to
retrofit the trim system add-ons? Does the airplane get so far out of trim
that the AP kicks offline? Is all this cost, complexity, and installation
time necessary???
Just askin'.
Linn
On 9/22/2010 11:00 AM, DLM wrote:
Just talked to Zak and determined the following.
1. when the AP is OFF or is not powered, the auto trim module reverts to
manual trim and internally reconnects the lines as though no auto trim
exists.
2. The auto trim does not lower the input voltage to the trim servo but
pulses the servo at standard voltage.
3. The rheostat on the trim box changes the pulse rate.
4. the cutting of the power wires to the trim servo is unknown when
connecting, the switch on the box allows reversal of the trim direction
depending on the hook up of the system.
5. The original 9 pin dub to the pitch servo is disconnected and a new shor
t
cable is made to connect to the auto trim dsub. Additionally another short
dsub harness is made for the auto trim box to pitch servo connection.
* *
* *
* *
* *
* *
===========*
===========*
===========*
===========*
* *
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Trutrak auto trim |
Linn,
I think that the STANDARD trim, with no speed control, and
REL-1 relays is something that nobody should use. The REL-1's
are very unreliable, and the standard full-speed trim is
just no acceptably a safe way to go in the RV-10.
So, to answer that question, I think Safety-Trim addresses
the real problem issues with the trim system. That one
change in itself would make everything else trivial.
Now for Auto-Trim, as it seems, everyone who has it, loves
it. I don't have it. I don't even miss it now and no, I get
no AP kick-offs or anything like that. I'd have to say that
I'm 100% satisfied NOT having it. But, if those people
like it so much, it makes me curious enough to throw away
some money to try it out....IF it won't compromise anything.
I really don't see any need for it AT ALL, except for
climbs and descents. In cruise I simply never have a problem.
Now based on the stuff David just got from Zack at TruTrak,
I'm back on the fence again where I may not want Auto-Trim.
Here's why....
To his point #1, when the AP is off, the module internally
reconnects to the lines as if no auto-trim exists. This
implies that there is ANOTHER set of relays in that box.
K.I.S.S. is my thought....ONE MORE set of relays that can
fail/stick? Hmmmm. Even if they're solid state, which they
likely are, it's one more layer of complexity.
Continuing to #2, if it is pulsing the servo at standard
voltage, then now I think about how it integrates with
Safety Trim, I can see the potential for Safety Trim's
3-second-timeout being defeated. Maybe not, because
Bob has said that it takes XX milliseconds of button
release to re-set the 3-second timer. But if it's pulsed,
I'd want to know I still can only have it run 3 seconds.
It is VERY unlikely that auto-trim will ever have to
run more than 3 seconds to do it's job, but I still
want the timeout.
#3 actually sounds good. If you already have Safety-trim
in there to slow the servo down, you could keep a nice high
pulse rate and hopefully qualify the "button push" that
Safety-Trim is receiving as one single push, so that the
3-second timeout still stays in effect. What it does
is mean that from a speed control perspective, the Auto-Trim
is crippled, because a safety-trim user would still use
THAT speed control.
Thinking through #4 and #5, in my case, my Safety-Trim
box is under the panel, and the servo of course is in
the tail. To accomodate interconnecting them
with things like Safety-Trim's "reversal" switch and
stuff, it may involve quite a bit of wiring to be
pulled from panel to tail. I can't really say that
I'm willing to do it if I have to pull more than 1 or
2 wires to the tail.....I have a couple spares run, but
I'm tired of piling in more stuff, and VERY tired of
removing side panels by the seats just to get more wires
back there. So I'd have to do a thorough review of
the wiring diagram before I'd go forward with it.
It would have to be pretty simple before I'd do it.
And I don't have really any room for the Auto-Trim box
under the panel if I want to keep it near the safety trim box.
Either way, I will not do auto-trim if it means I
lose anything that Safety-Trim offers. THAT is the
one thing I think that everyone (other than vertical
power users) should have.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 9/22/2010 10:11 AM, Linn Walters wrote:
> All this talk of auto trim, manual trim, safety trim and slow trim
> begs the question ...... has anyone found the trim system so bad that
> they had to retrofit the trim system add-ons? Does the airplane get so
> far out of trim that the AP kicks offline? Is all this cost, complexity,
> and installation time necessary???
> Just askin'.
> Linn
>
> On 9/22/2010 11:00 AM, DLM wrote:
>> Just talked to Zak and determined the following.
>> 1. when the AP is OFF or is not powered, the auto trim module reverts
>> to manual trim and internally reconnects the lines as though no auto
>> trim exists.
>> 2. The auto trim does not lower the input voltage to the trim servo
>> but pulses the servo at standard voltage.
>> 3. The rheostat on the trim box changes the pulse rate.
>> 4. the cutting of the power wires to the trim servo is unknown when
>> connecting, the switch on the box allows reversal of the trim
>> direction depending on the hook up of the system.
>> 5. The original 9 pin dub to the pitch servo is disconnected and a new
>> short cable is made to connect to the auto trim dsub. Additionally
>> another short dsub harness is made for the auto trim box to pitch
>> servo connection.
>> *
>>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Trutrak auto trim |
I agree completely. The REL-1 is bad news. My dad had the same situation that
was mentioned where he could trim one way, but the other way was intermittent.
He would try trimming a little the way that would work and then often it would
start working the other way. One day, it didn't. It was all he could do
to get the plane on the ground and his arm was sore, IIRC, for a while. We might
be the ones that brought up the REL-1 issue back in those days. Definitely
change that out for the REL-2 if nothing else. I really like the VP system
because if the switch somehow fails, you can control the trim from the VP-200
screen.
We have also had experience with the servo letting go when the trim had was accidentally
held (pre VP days) until the servo let go (pre high-torque servo days,
but have heard that it was worse after the high-torque servo was installed).
I can't talk much to the auto-trim, except the one guy that I have talked to who
installed it loves it.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
On Sep 22, 2010, at 11:40 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> Linn,
> I think that the STANDARD trim, with no speed control, and
> REL-1 relays is something that nobody should use. The REL-1's
> are very unreliable, and the standard full-speed trim is
> just no acceptably a safe way to go in the RV-10.
>
> So, to answer that question, I think Safety-Trim addresses
> the real problem issues with the trim system. That one
> change in itself would make everything else trivial.
>
> Now for Auto-Trim, as it seems, everyone who has it, loves
> it. I don't have it. I don't even miss it now and no, I get
> no AP kick-offs or anything like that. I'd have to say that
> I'm 100% satisfied NOT having it. But, if those people
> like it so much, it makes me curious enough to throw away
> some money to try it out....IF it won't compromise anything.
> I really don't see any need for it AT ALL, except for
> climbs and descents. In cruise I simply never have a problem.
>
> Now based on the stuff David just got from Zack at TruTrak,
> I'm back on the fence again where I may not want Auto-Trim.
> Here's why....
>
> To his point #1, when the AP is off, the module internally
> reconnects to the lines as if no auto-trim exists. This
> implies that there is ANOTHER set of relays in that box.
> K.I.S.S. is my thought....ONE MORE set of relays that can
> fail/stick? Hmmmm. Even if they're solid state, which they
> likely are, it's one more layer of complexity.
>
> Continuing to #2, if it is pulsing the servo at standard
> voltage, then now I think about how it integrates with
> Safety Trim, I can see the potential for Safety Trim's
> 3-second-timeout being defeated. Maybe not, because
> Bob has said that it takes XX milliseconds of button
> release to re-set the 3-second timer. But if it's pulsed,
> I'd want to know I still can only have it run 3 seconds.
> It is VERY unlikely that auto-trim will ever have to
> run more than 3 seconds to do it's job, but I still
> want the timeout.
>
> #3 actually sounds good. If you already have Safety-trim
> in there to slow the servo down, you could keep a nice high
> pulse rate and hopefully qualify the "button push" that
> Safety-Trim is receiving as one single push, so that the
> 3-second timeout still stays in effect. What it does
> is mean that from a speed control perspective, the Auto-Trim
> is crippled, because a safety-trim user would still use
> THAT speed control.
>
> Thinking through #4 and #5, in my case, my Safety-Trim
> box is under the panel, and the servo of course is in
> the tail. To accomodate interconnecting them
> with things like Safety-Trim's "reversal" switch and
> stuff, it may involve quite a bit of wiring to be
> pulled from panel to tail. I can't really say that
> I'm willing to do it if I have to pull more than 1 or
> 2 wires to the tail.....I have a couple spares run, but
> I'm tired of piling in more stuff, and VERY tired of
> removing side panels by the seats just to get more wires
> back there. So I'd have to do a thorough review of
> the wiring diagram before I'd go forward with it.
> It would have to be pretty simple before I'd do it.
> And I don't have really any room for the Auto-Trim box
> under the panel if I want to keep it near the safety trim box.
> Either way, I will not do auto-trim if it means I
> lose anything that Safety-Trim offers. THAT is the
> one thing I think that everyone (other than vertical
> power users) should have.
>
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
>
>
> On 9/22/2010 10:11 AM, Linn Walters wrote:
>> All this talk of auto trim, manual trim, safety trim and slow trim
>> begs the question ...... has anyone found the trim system so bad that
>> they had to retrofit the trim system add-ons? Does the airplane get so
>> far out of trim that the AP kicks offline? Is all this cost, complexity,
>> and installation time necessary???
>> Just askin'.
>> Linn
>>
>> On 9/22/2010 11:00 AM, DLM wrote:
>>> Just talked to Zak and determined the following.
>>> 1. when the AP is OFF or is not powered, the auto trim module reverts
>>> to manual trim and internally reconnects the lines as though no auto
>>> trim exists.
>>> 2. The auto trim does not lower the input voltage to the trim servo
>>> but pulses the servo at standard voltage.
>>> 3. The rheostat on the trim box changes the pulse rate.
>>> 4. the cutting of the power wires to the trim servo is unknown when
>>> connecting, the switch on the box allows reversal of the trim
>>> direction depending on the hook up of the system.
>>> 5. The original 9 pin dub to the pitch servo is disconnected and a new
>>> short cable is made to connect to the auto trim dsub. Additionally
>>> another short dsub harness is made for the auto trim box to pitch
>>> servo connection.
>>> *
>>>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: performance (pitch trim) |
>>no relays are needed and either set of trim switches can control without
shorting<<
I'd be interested in seeing a schematic for two trim switches without a
relay. Are you using a selector switch for one stick or the other?
The installations I've seen without a relay or a selector switch would
always pop the breaker if both tried to trim at the same time.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: performance (pitch trim) |
The problem isn't dual sticks ..... it won't matter if the switches
are wired in parallel to control the servo or to control the relay.
What matters is the switch itself. Some grip switches will handle the
current of the servo, and some won't .... for long.
Linn
On 9/22/2010 11:11 AM, Kevin Belue wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kevin Belue<kdbelue@charter.net>
>
> No, I have trim switches on both sticks. If it's wired right, no relays are
needed and either set of trim switches can control without shorting.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 22, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Tim Olson<Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson<Tim@myrv10.com>
>>
>> You pretty much need to if you're going to have multiple sticks
>> controlling the trim. You're right though that if you're only
>> going to have one trim switch, you could just use switches.
>> It's the dual-stick, or panel/stick multiple switches that
>> make you need a relay.
>>
>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>> On 9/22/2010 8:34 AM, Kevin Belue wrote:
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kevin Belue<kdbelue@charter.net>
>>>
>>> Why use relays if the trim switches can handle the trim motor
>>> current? Relays are just another part to fail. I wired my trim
>>> switches directly and they've worked great for several years....
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Sep 22, 2010, at 7:19 AM, "Marcus Cooper"<coop85@verizon.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus
>>>> Cooper"<coop85@verizon.net>
>>>>
>>>> Since we have drifted into a pitch trim discussion, here's a basic
>>>> problem I recently encountered with a probable solution. My pitch
>>>> works great pushing for nose down trim, but the up portion has
>>>> become intermittent. Certainly not good and in trouble shooting I
>>>> thought the motor in the trim servo had a bad spot that would keep
>>>> it from moving but would start if I could get it repositioned by
>>>> moving the other way (old school electric motor thinking I
>>>> suspect). I spoke to Andy at Ray Allen and apparently they had a
>>>> number of their REL-1 relays go bad and this was the symptom
>>>> (works one way, but not the other due to the relay failing
>>>> internally). The new REL-2 relay is more robust and fixes this. I
>>>> will trouble shoot some more (get the system to fail and tap on the
>>>> relay was the guidance) and if confirmed Andy offered to sell me a
>>>> REL-2 at half price (makes it $23 from what I can tell).
>>>>
>>>> Marcus 40286
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Trutrak auto trim |
I called Zak to confirm; the relays are electronic switches, not mechanical
ones. I also discussed with Ray Allen and the standard time from end to end
on the trim servo is 19 seconds. It seems to me that if the trim runs away
the first action is a pull of the trim breaker.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Saint" <jesse@saintaviation.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Trutrak auto trim
>
> I agree completely. The REL-1 is bad news. My dad had the same situation
> that was mentioned where he could trim one way, but the other way was
> intermittent. He would try trimming a little the way that would work and
> then often it would start working the other way. One day, it didn't. It
> was all he could do to get the plane on the ground and his arm was sore,
> IIRC, for a while. We might be the ones that brought up the REL-1 issue
> back in those days. Definitely change that out for the REL-2 if nothing
> else. I really like the VP system because if the switch somehow fails,
> you can control the trim from the VP-200 screen.
>
> We have also had experience with the servo letting go when the trim had
> was accidentally held (pre VP days) until the servo let go (pre
> high-torque servo days, but have heard that it was worse after the
> high-torque servo was installed).
>
> I can't talk much to the auto-trim, except the one guy that I have talked
> to who installed it loves it.
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> jesse@saintaviation.com
> C: 352-427-0285
> F: 815-377-3694
>
> On Sep 22, 2010, at 11:40 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
>>
>> Linn,
>> I think that the STANDARD trim, with no speed control, and
>> REL-1 relays is something that nobody should use. The REL-1's
>> are very unreliable, and the standard full-speed trim is
>> just no acceptably a safe way to go in the RV-10.
>>
>> So, to answer that question, I think Safety-Trim addresses
>> the real problem issues with the trim system. That one
>> change in itself would make everything else trivial.
>>
>> Now for Auto-Trim, as it seems, everyone who has it, loves
>> it. I don't have it. I don't even miss it now and no, I get
>> no AP kick-offs or anything like that. I'd have to say that
>> I'm 100% satisfied NOT having it. But, if those people
>> like it so much, it makes me curious enough to throw away
>> some money to try it out....IF it won't compromise anything.
>> I really don't see any need for it AT ALL, except for
>> climbs and descents. In cruise I simply never have a problem.
>>
>> Now based on the stuff David just got from Zack at TruTrak,
>> I'm back on the fence again where I may not want Auto-Trim.
>> Here's why....
>>
>> To his point #1, when the AP is off, the module internally
>> reconnects to the lines as if no auto-trim exists. This
>> implies that there is ANOTHER set of relays in that box.
>> K.I.S.S. is my thought....ONE MORE set of relays that can
>> fail/stick? Hmmmm. Even if they're solid state, which they
>> likely are, it's one more layer of complexity.
>>
>> Continuing to #2, if it is pulsing the servo at standard
>> voltage, then now I think about how it integrates with
>> Safety Trim, I can see the potential for Safety Trim's
>> 3-second-timeout being defeated. Maybe not, because
>> Bob has said that it takes XX milliseconds of button
>> release to re-set the 3-second timer. But if it's pulsed,
>> I'd want to know I still can only have it run 3 seconds.
>> It is VERY unlikely that auto-trim will ever have to
>> run more than 3 seconds to do it's job, but I still
>> want the timeout.
>>
>> #3 actually sounds good. If you already have Safety-trim
>> in there to slow the servo down, you could keep a nice high
>> pulse rate and hopefully qualify the "button push" that
>> Safety-Trim is receiving as one single push, so that the
>> 3-second timeout still stays in effect. What it does
>> is mean that from a speed control perspective, the Auto-Trim
>> is crippled, because a safety-trim user would still use
>> THAT speed control.
>>
>> Thinking through #4 and #5, in my case, my Safety-Trim
>> box is under the panel, and the servo of course is in
>> the tail. To accomodate interconnecting them
>> with things like Safety-Trim's "reversal" switch and
>> stuff, it may involve quite a bit of wiring to be
>> pulled from panel to tail. I can't really say that
>> I'm willing to do it if I have to pull more than 1 or
>> 2 wires to the tail.....I have a couple spares run, but
>> I'm tired of piling in more stuff, and VERY tired of
>> removing side panels by the seats just to get more wires
>> back there. So I'd have to do a thorough review of
>> the wiring diagram before I'd go forward with it.
>> It would have to be pretty simple before I'd do it.
>> And I don't have really any room for the Auto-Trim box
>> under the panel if I want to keep it near the safety trim box.
>> Either way, I will not do auto-trim if it means I
>> lose anything that Safety-Trim offers. THAT is the
>> one thing I think that everyone (other than vertical
>> power users) should have.
>>
>>
>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>> On 9/22/2010 10:11 AM, Linn Walters wrote:
>>> All this talk of auto trim, manual trim, safety trim and slow trim
>>> begs the question ...... has anyone found the trim system so bad that
>>> they had to retrofit the trim system add-ons? Does the airplane get so
>>> far out of trim that the AP kicks offline? Is all this cost, complexity,
>>> and installation time necessary???
>>> Just askin'.
>>> Linn
>>>
>>> On 9/22/2010 11:00 AM, DLM wrote:
>>>> Just talked to Zak and determined the following.
>>>> 1. when the AP is OFF or is not powered, the auto trim module reverts
>>>> to manual trim and internally reconnects the lines as though no auto
>>>> trim exists.
>>>> 2. The auto trim does not lower the input voltage to the trim servo
>>>> but pulses the servo at standard voltage.
>>>> 3. The rheostat on the trim box changes the pulse rate.
>>>> 4. the cutting of the power wires to the trim servo is unknown when
>>>> connecting, the switch on the box allows reversal of the trim
>>>> direction depending on the hook up of the system.
>>>> 5. The original 9 pin dub to the pitch servo is disconnected and a new
>>>> short cable is made to connect to the auto trim dsub. Additionally
>>>> another short dsub harness is made for the auto trim box to pitch
>>>> servo connection.
>>>> *
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Trutrak auto trim |
On 9/22/2010 11:40 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> Linn,
> I think that the STANDARD trim, with no speed control, and
> REL-1 relays is something that nobody should use. The REL-1's
> are very unreliable, and the standard full-speed trim is
> just no acceptably a safe way to go in the RV-10.
Thanks for that analysis Tim.
Robin wrote:
I would go so far as to say a runaway trim in the 10 may not be
survivable. I have seen how difficult the plane was to hold straight &
level with trim at a substantially out of trim configuration but not
nearly maxed out of trim setting. It was all I could do to control the
10 at the relatively low speeds of take off. If the same thing were to
happen at cruise speed it would be VERY ugly.
This begs another question: Is the trim that powerful that pulling (or
pushing) on the stick is a major effort? It may be that the control arm
needs to be shorter. After all, the trim is only to push the elevators
a little, not fly the airplane!
> So, to answer that question, I think Safety-Trim addresses
> the real problem issues with the trim system. That one
> change in itself would make everything else trivial.
Because of the sticking/inop relays, or the speed? Both?
snip
> #3 actually sounds good. If you already have Safety-trim
> in there to slow the servo down, you could keep a nice high
> pulse rate and hopefully qualify the "button push" that
> Safety-Trim is receiving as one single push, so that the
> 3-second timeout still stays in effect. What it does
> is mean that from a speed control perspective, the Auto-Trim
> is crippled, because a safety-trim user would still use
> THAT speed control.
Now we're back to the speed ...... and the ability to control how much
the trim changes with each 'blip' of the trim button. Also the ability
to control the airplane with full trim. Changing the length of the arm
would ameliate both concerns. Thoughts?
Linn
snip
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
>
>
> On 9/22/2010 10:11 AM, Linn Walters wrote:
>> All this talk of auto trim, manual trim, safety trim and slow trim
>> begs the question ...... has anyone found the trim system so bad that
>> they had to retrofit the trim system add-ons? Does the airplane get so
>> far out of trim that the AP kicks offline? Is all this cost, complexity,
>> and installation time necessary???
>> Just askin'.
>> Linn
>>
>> On 9/22/2010 11:00 AM, DLM wrote:
>>> Just talked to Zak and determined the following.
>>> 1. when the AP is OFF or is not powered, the auto trim module reverts
>>> to manual trim and internally reconnects the lines as though no auto
>>> trim exists.
>>> 2. The auto trim does not lower the input voltage to the trim servo
>>> but pulses the servo at standard voltage.
>>> 3. The rheostat on the trim box changes the pulse rate.
>>> 4. the cutting of the power wires to the trim servo is unknown when
>>> connecting, the switch on the box allows reversal of the trim
>>> direction depending on the hook up of the system.
>>> 5. The original 9 pin dub to the pitch servo is disconnected and a new
>>> short cable is made to connect to the auto trim dsub. Additionally
>>> another short dsub harness is made for the auto trim box to pitch
>>> servo connection.
>>> *
>>>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: performance (pitch trim) |
It does matter if the switches are wired in parallel because if up is selected
on one stick and down is selected on the other then 12v is shorted to ground.
But it can be wired so that doesn't happen. As we both said, the switches
must have a current rating to handle the trim motor.
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 22, 2010, at 10:45 AM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> The problem isn't dual sticks ..... it won't matter if the switches are wired
in parallel to control the servo or to control the relay. What matters is the
switch itself. Some grip switches will handle the current of the servo, and
some won't .... for long.
> Linn
> On 9/22/2010 11:11 AM, Kevin Belue wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kevin Belue<kdbelue@charter.net>
>>
>> No, I have trim switches on both sticks. If it's wired right, no relays are
needed and either set of trim switches can control without shorting.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Sep 22, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Tim Olson<Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
>>
>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson<Tim@myrv10.com>
>>>
>>> You pretty much need to if you're going to have multiple sticks
>>> controlling the trim. You're right though that if you're only
>>> going to have one trim switch, you could just use switches.
>>> It's the dual-stick, or panel/stick multiple switches that
>>> make you need a relay.
>>>
>>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
>>> do not archive
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/22/2010 8:34 AM, Kevin Belue wrote:
>>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kevin Belue<kdbelue@charter.net>
>>>>
>>>> Why use relays if the trim switches can handle the trim motor
>>>> current? Relays are just another part to fail. I wired my trim
>>>> switches directly and they've worked great for several years....
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 22, 2010, at 7:19 AM, "Marcus Cooper"<coop85@verizon.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus
>>>>> Cooper"<coop85@verizon.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> Since we have drifted into a pitch trim discussion, here's a basic
>>>>> problem I recently encountered with a probable solution. My pitch
>>>>> works great pushing for nose down trim, but the up portion has
>>>>> become intermittent. Certainly not good and in trouble shooting I
>>>>> thought the motor in the trim servo had a bad spot that would keep
>>>>> it from moving but would start if I could get it repositioned by
>>>>> moving the other way (old school electric motor thinking I
>>>>> suspect). I spoke to Andy at Ray Allen and apparently they had a
>>>>> number of their REL-1 relays go bad and this was the symptom
>>>>> (works one way, but not the other due to the relay failing
>>>>> internally). The new REL-2 relay is more robust and fixes this. I
>>>>> will trouble shoot some more (get the system to fail and tap on the
>>>>> relay was the guidance) and if confirmed Andy offered to sell me a
>>>>> REL-2 at half price (makes it $23 from what I can tell).
>>>>>
>>>>> Marcus 40286
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Trutrak auto trim |
I doubt that one is ever at one end of the trim cycle for it to take 19
seconds to get to the other end of the trim cycle. So cut that time in
half ~10 seconds then understand it takes 2-3 seconds to realize what is
happening 7 seconds left then know at that point you are pushing or
pulling on the stick ever harder and harder to keep level... tic... tic...
tic and one has eaten up another several seconds which gets you right near
the end of the trim travel before most pilots (my speculation) have the
wherewithal to think about, locate and then physically pull the correct
breaker. Game over???
I will agree that the pilot still has plenty of time to tell his
passengers how sorry he is for not installing a safety trim system...
GRIM...
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DLM
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Trutrak auto trim
I called Zak to confirm; the relays are electronic switches, not
mechanical
ones. I also discussed with Ray Allen and the standard time from end to
end
on the trim servo is 19 seconds. It seems to me that if the trim runs away
the first action is a pull of the trim breaker.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Trutrak auto trim |
> Because of the sticking/inop relays, or the speed? Both?
Both. I'd have to go re-read what I wrote when I took notes
before, but in cruise at full speed trim, in the RV-10,
something like 1-2 seconds of nose-up trim will likely
pull > 4G's on the up pull. So pulling a breaker in
cruise isn't going to happen fast enough, if you have full
speed trim. With Safety Trim, slowed down, the 3 second
timeout is long enough that you can stick the switch for
a full 3 seconds and not have an airplane that bends the
wings. It will be pitched up quite a bit, but with standard
full-speed trim, I believe that if you did something stupid
like let some kids feet/books/body parts lay on that
stick hat switch, and they gave it full nose up trim
at full speed, you would likely bend the plane or maybe
remove the wings within probably 3-4 seconds.
If you catch it in time and fight it with a SUPER strong
push, you may have a chance....I don't know, but you'd
have to be very on your game.
Tim
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Trutrak auto trim |
Well now after reading these posts I have ordered and returned the AutoTrim
THREE times!
Just kidding
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Trutrak auto trim
>
>> Because of the sticking/inop relays, or the speed? Both?
>
> Both. I'd have to go re-read what I wrote when I took notes
> before, but in cruise at full speed trim, in the RV-10,
> something like 1-2 seconds of nose-up trim will likely
> pull > 4G's on the up pull. So pulling a breaker in
> cruise isn't going to happen fast enough, if you have full
> speed trim. With Safety Trim, slowed down, the 3 second
> timeout is long enough that you can stick the switch for
> a full 3 seconds and not have an airplane that bends the
> wings. It will be pitched up quite a bit, but with standard
> full-speed trim, I believe that if you did something stupid
> like let some kids feet/books/body parts lay on that
> stick hat switch, and they gave it full nose up trim
> at full speed, you would likely bend the plane or maybe
> remove the wings within probably 3-4 seconds.
> If you catch it in time and fight it with a SUPER strong
> push, you may have a chance....I don't know, but you'd
> have to be very on your game.
>
>
> Tim
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Trutrak auto trim |
I confess I haven't read all the posts regarding the auto pitch trim from
tt.My first experience with it in 2006 was very negative.Most autopilots
will disable the auto pitch and allow pilot override with a control wheel
or stick mounted switch-the trutrak system at least how it was wired by
aerotrnics does not.On top of that I had one of the early sorcerer autopi
lots without the torque enhancer's which was virtually unusable with the
autotrim.It would constantly be out of trim and after a bit of a wild rid
e it would kickoff.Since then I disabled the autotrim with a jumper per tt
and installed the torque enhancer,it has operated flawlessly since using
manual trim,it couples approaches and flys the airplane-I still need to
send it to trutrak to fix a intermittent funky display did have the origi
nal ray allan relay go out and had to fly the airplane home out of trim 20
0 miles at 90 kts-slowest flight in the 10,I cant help but wonder what eff
ect this would have had if the auto trim was still enabled .Having said al
l that I am going to again try the auto pitch trim on another project as
I am a slow learner. Jim 728DD
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Sent: Wed, Sep 22, 2010 10:22 am
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Trutrak auto trim
> Because of the sticking/inop relays, or the speed? Both?
Both. I'd have to go re-read what I wrote when I took notes
before, but in cruise at full speed trim, in the RV-10,
something like 1-2 seconds of nose-up trim will likely
pull > 4G's on the up pull. So pulling a breaker in
cruise isn't going to happen fast enough, if you have full
speed trim. With Safety Trim, slowed down, the 3 second
timeout is long enough that you can stick the switch for
a full 3 seconds and not have an airplane that bends the
wings. It will be pitched up quite a bit, but with standard
full-speed trim, I believe that if you did something stupid
like let some kids feet/books/body parts lay on that
stick hat switch, and they gave it full nose up trim
at full speed, you would likely bend the plane or maybe
remove the wings within probably 3-4 seconds.
If you catch it in time and fight it with a SUPER strong
push, you may have a chance....I don't know, but you'd
have to be very on your game.
Tim
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: performance (pitch trim) |
-I too have the TW safety system and the auto trim, two sticks with trim
control. Not a problem. I put the auto trim in last winter when I redid my
panel and once we got it tweaked up at Trutrak it has worked beautifuly. Th
ats been about 140 hrs now. You do not have trim control as long as AP in o
n, but once you kick it off your back in business.
Patrick Thyssen
231 hrs on 15pt
New paint
--- On Wed, 9/22/10, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
From: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: performance (pitch trim)
- The problem isn't dual sticks ..... it won't matter if the switches
are wired in parallel to control the servo or to control the relay.-
What matters is the switch itself.- Some grip switches will handle the
current of the servo, and some won't .... for long.
Linn
On 9/22/2010 11:11 AM, Kevin Belue wrote:
> -->- RV10-List message posted by: Kevin Belue<kdbelue@charter.net>
>
> No, I have trim switches on both sticks.---If it's wired right, no
relays are needed and either set of trim switches can control without short
ing.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 22, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Tim Olson<Tim@myrv10.com>- wrote:
>
>> -->- RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson<Tim@myrv10.com>
>>
>> You pretty much need to if you're going to have multiple sticks
>> controlling the trim.- You're right though that if you're only
>> going to have one trim switch, you could just use switches.
>> It's the dual-stick, or panel/stick multiple switches that
>> make you need a relay.
>>
>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>> On 9/22/2010 8:34 AM, Kevin Belue wrote:
>>> -->---RV10-List message posted by: Kevin Belue<kdbelue@charter.ne
t>
>>>
>>> Why use relays if the trim switches can handle the trim motor
>>> current? Relays are just another part to fail. I wired my trim
>>> switches directly and they've worked great for several years....
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Sep 22, 2010, at 7:19 AM, "Marcus Cooper"<coop85@verizon.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> -->---RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus
>>>> Cooper"<coop85@verizon.net>
>>>>
>>>> Since we have drifted into a pitch trim discussion, here's a basic
>>>> problem I recently encountered with a probable solution.- My pitch
>>>> works great pushing for nose down trim, but the up portion has
>>>> become intermittent.- Certainly not good and in trouble shooting I
>>>> thought the motor in the trim servo had a bad spot that would keep
>>>> it from moving but would start if I could get it repositioned by
>>>> moving the other way (old school electric motor thinking I
>>>> suspect).- I spoke to Andy at Ray Allen and apparently they had a
>>>> number of their REL-1 relays go bad and this was the symptom
>>>> (works one way, but not the other due to the relay failing
>>>> internally).- The new REL-2 relay is more robust and fixes this.-
I
>>>> will trouble shoot some more (get the system to fail and tap on the
>>>> relay was the guidance) and if confirmed Andy offered to sell me a
>>>> REL-2 at half price (makes it $23 from what I can tell).
>>>>
>>>> Marcus 40286
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
le, List Admin.
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: performance (pitch trim) |
Hey Tim,
I was thinking about all this about the trim and thought about the Citation.
The Citation has had a history of runaway trims that has prompted previous AD's
and flight manual changes.
Here is what they came up with per Flight Safety Manual:
1. Autopilot/Trim Disengage Switch........................PRESS
2. Pitch Trim Circuit Breaker (LH Panel).................PULL
Pull the PITCH TRIM circuit breaker to permenantly remove power from the trim motor
before releasing the autopilot/trim disengage switch.
3. Manual Elevator Trim.........................................AS REQUIRED
NOTE
Do not attempt to use the autopilot if the electric trim is
inoperative. The autopilot is not able to trim-out servo
torque, and disengaging the autopilot with light servo torque
could result in a significant pitch upset.
The problem with this scenario is now I can't return to home base single pilot
if I land somewhere else with a inop Autopilot.
I also remember four down and three over by memory for the CB position.
Maybe we can have a TRIM Disconnect on one of the many switches on the infinity
grip??
--------
Cust. #40936
RV-10 SB Fuselage
N801VR reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=313444#313444
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: performance (pitch trim) |
That's true, that would be an option. I see what you mean,
they have you push the button which disengages, then pull
the breaker since you now have time to do that. That's
not a bad way to go either. I do think that I'm pretty
happy with what I have now in that even if it ran away
with a broken switch, it can't get too out of whack.
Also, Bob incorporates an OFF switch that I have located
by my quadrant, and that same switch does REVERSE if you
really want, as a momentary switch. That way you can
reverse what was done, unlike when I had the relay failure
at OSH and had no choice but to strong arm the plane down
final.
I don't know, I think that's not a bad option, but,
I also would miss ANY of my infinity switches that
I now have used. If I had a couple more switches,
maybe. I just think that with what I have in the
plane right now, I don't have the worries. With the
way it was before that, I had worries. I had a
sudden pitch-up experience when doing my flyoff while
calibrating my AP. Was looking at the manual, laid
the binder a little to low and it hit the trim switch.
Suddenly I was rocketing for the sky, trying to figure
out what the heck just happened. It takes you a second
to figure out if it's your AP going nuts, or the trim.
I was playing with the AP, so I thought it was the AP,
and hit the AP disconnect. Nope, that wasn't it.
So it took a couple seconds to figure it out. I
pulled a couple G's in that mess. But in testing I've
seen worse.
After finding a good solution that is really working well,
I don't intend to re-invent the wheel and go down another
path...but that option doesn't sound bad to me.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 9/22/2010 9:25 PM, Strasnuts wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Strasnuts"<sean@braunandco.com>
<snip>
> Maybe we can have a TRIM Disconnect on one of the many switches on the infinity
grip??
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: performance (pitch trim) |
Tim:
You probably know this already but a feature of the auto trim system is that the
manual trim system is DISABLED anytime the autopilot is engaged. Makes it
impossible to inadvertently, or intentionally, manually trim the airplane without
first disengaging the AP. Absent a system failure of some sort of course.
I like the safety trim idea and am considering installing one. Sounds like its
compatible with the auto trim system I currently have installed.
Lyle Bender N159LB
---- Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
============
That's true, that would be an option. I see what you mean,
they have you push the button which disengages, then pull
the breaker since you now have time to do that. That's
not a bad way to go either. I do think that I'm pretty
happy with what I have now in that even if it ran away
with a broken switch, it can't get too out of whack.
Also, Bob incorporates an OFF switch that I have located
by my quadrant, and that same switch does REVERSE if you
really want, as a momentary switch. That way you can
reverse what was done, unlike when I had the relay failure
at OSH and had no choice but to strong arm the plane down
final.
I don't know, I think that's not a bad option, but,
I also would miss ANY of my infinity switches that
I now have used. If I had a couple more switches,
maybe. I just think that with what I have in the
plane right now, I don't have the worries. With the
way it was before that, I had worries. I had a
sudden pitch-up experience when doing my flyoff while
calibrating my AP. Was looking at the manual, laid
the binder a little to low and it hit the trim switch.
Suddenly I was rocketing for the sky, trying to figure
out what the heck just happened. It takes you a second
to figure out if it's your AP going nuts, or the trim.
I was playing with the AP, so I thought it was the AP,
and hit the AP disconnect. Nope, that wasn't it.
So it took a couple seconds to figure it out. I
pulled a couple G's in that mess. But in testing I've
seen worse.
After finding a good solution that is really working well,
I don't intend to re-invent the wheel and go down another
path...but that option doesn't sound bad to me.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 9/22/2010 9:25 PM, Strasnuts wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Strasnuts"<sean@braunandco.com>
<snip>
> Maybe we can have a TRIM Disconnect on one of the many switches on the infinity
grip??
>
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