Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:52 AM - Re: performance (pitch trim) (Wayne Edgerton)
2. 06:12 AM - Re: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout (Kelly McMullen)
3. 06:27 AM - Re: performance (pitch trim) (Tim Olson)
4. 06:51 AM - Re: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout (Tim Olson)
5. 07:34 AM - Re: performance (pitch trim) (Carl Froehlich)
6. 07:35 AM - Re: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout (Kelly McMullen)
7. 08:41 AM - Re: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout (Robin Marks)
8. 12:21 PM - Re: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout (Tim Olson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: performance (pitch trim) |
I've been reading the concern over runaway trim and thought I would
share my experience with this. Back in, I think, 2007 when Ray Allen
came out with relay II to replace relay I because of problems, we went
in and changes out the relay.
I was going to go up and test the trim with the new relay and someone at
the hangar had never been up in a 10 and wanted to hop in the right
seat. We took off and I was explaining how you used the trim for climb
and then again when you level off. At about 300' I hit the trim up on my
hat switch and I the trim servo went to full stop up in what seemed like
two nanoseconds. It was so fast that even if I could have reached the CB
it would have been way over with by then. I had to put a really large
amount of pressure on the stick to hold it forward, in fact I ask my
passenger to put his hand on the passenger stick to help me hold forward
pressure just in case my harm gets tired.
I was able to hold the stick forward but it took quite a bit of pressure
but I was then wondering how the hell I was going to flair it in the
landing that way. I hadn't really left the pattern so I just pulled down
wind and told the passenger that it will be ok, under my breath saying I
hope. Anyway as I proceeded downwind and as I pulled back on the power
the pressure on the stick started to degrease. As I pulled the power
back more the pressure continued to decrease. I obviously had to be very
gentle and careful on landing to just let back a certain amount on the
stick in landing but the landing went fine.
I taxied back to the hangar and sat there wondering what the hell was
that. I tested the trim and it worked fine. I decided I was going to go
back up, crazy guy, and see if it would do that again and my passenger
decided he would also try it again so if I needed help holding the
stick. I went up and waited a little longer before trying the trim but
when I did boom here we go again, being from TX I had to yell yea hah
ride um big boy :>} Anyway same drill on landing and when we landed we
took out the RA relay II and put back in the relay I and went back up
problem solved. I called Ray Allen a little less than happy and the
first words out of their mouths was it wasn't our relay you wired it
wrong. We wired it exactly the same way as we took out and put back in
relay I and II. They sent me another relay and that one worked fine. For
some reason the first one was ok as long as there was no pressure being
exerted but with pressure on it it would go nuts.
Anyway as an end to this story, as much as I didn't much care for the
experience it did show me that if I did by accident have a run a way
trim I could still control the plane. However whenever I fly I notice
that I subconsciously always ride with my hand on the stick when the
auto pilot is engaged.
Wayne Edgerton
N602WT
Time: 01:38:30 PM PST US
Subject: Re: performance (pitch trim)
From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu>
I've put pullable CB's for the trim and autopilot right next to
each other, just
right of center in front of the pilot, easily reached by the right
hand. I'll
put a red box around them. My plan is that if the pitch goes nuts,
I'll pull
both breakers, then sort out the problem.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout |
Sounds great Tim. Is there some web site where we can see when our own local
areas will have ADS-B ground stations? I've not had much success searching
for that information. Has NavWorx given any indication if they will seek TSO
certification of their ADS600 transceiver? I already see needing an extra
external GPS antenna for whatever ADS-B unit gets installed.
On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
>
> I had an interesting day flying today!
> I took a flight 92nm to drop off the kids, and while I was doing it,
> I was beta testing a cool new feature that NavWorx added just
> in the last couple days. More on that when I can.
>
> But anyway, my wife flew on the return leg, so I fired up the laptop and
> did some data logging of the stations I was receiving, up here in
> central/western Wisconsin, now that ADS-B covers us.
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: performance (pitch trim) |
Wayne....great story! You did miss one point in your conclusion though....
.yours happened at low airspeed in climbing. If that would have happened in
cruise, I bet the outcome may not have ended the same way....especially wit
h only single full speed trim. At absolute bare minimum a speed reduction s
hould be installed for slow trim during cruise. Also, I really think that L
ESS than full speed would be annoying and perhaps in some cases compromise s
afety for some pilots. So for me, dual speed is a big deal.
Personally though, I think at 170+ kts that a full-speed nose up trim runawa
y to the stops would stand a good chance of bending something.
And if someone were screwing around doing low passes at high speed for show a
nd they got full speed nose down at 175kts and 100' they'd be toast by the t
ome they'd recognize the problem.
At lower climbout speeds though, it's totally different, and it's nice to he
ar that you can fight the trim by arm strength.
Tim
On Sep 26, 2010, at 7:45 AM, "Wayne Edgerton" <w.edgerton@verizon.net> wrote
:
> I've been reading the concern over runaway trim and thought I would share m
y experience with this. Back in, I think, 2007 when Ray Allen came out with r
elay II to replace relay I because of problems, we went in and changes out t
he relay.
>
> I was going to go up and test the trim with the new relay and someone at t
he hangar had never been up in a 10 and wanted to hop in the right seat. We t
ook off and I was explaining how you used the trim for climb and then again w
hen you level off. At about 300' I hit the trim up on my hat switch and I th
e trim servo went to full stop up in what seemed like two nanoseconds. It wa
s so fast that even if I could have reached the CB it would have been way ov
er with by then. I had to put a really large amount of pressure on the stic
k to hold it forward, in fact I ask my passenger to put his hand on the pass
enger stick to help me hold forward pressure just in case my harm gets tired
.
>
> I was able to hold the stick forward but it took quite a bit of pressure b
ut I was then wondering how the hell I was going to flair it in the landing t
hat way. I hadn't really left the pattern so I just pulled down wind and tol
d the passenger that it will be ok, under my breath saying I hope. Anyway as
I proceeded downwind and as I pulled back on the power the pressure on the s
tick started to degrease. As I pulled the power back more the pressure conti
nued to decrease. I obviously had to be very gentle and careful on landing t
o just let back a certain amount on the stick in landing but the landing wen
t fine.
>
> I taxied back to the hangar and sat there wondering what the hell was that
. I tested the trim and it worked fine. I decided I was going to go back up,
crazy guy, and see if it would do that again and my passenger decided he wo
uld also try it again so if I needed help holding the stick. I went up and w
aited a little longer before trying the trim but when I did boom here we go a
gain, being from TX I had to yell yea hah ride um big boy :>} Anyway same dr
ill on landing and when we landed we took out the RA relay II and put back i
n the relay I and went back up problem solved. I called Ray Allen a little l
ess than happy and the first words out of their mouths was it wasn't our rel
ay you wired it wrong. We wired it exactly the same way as we took out and p
ut back in relay I and II. They sent me another relay and that one worked fi
ne. For some reason the first one was ok as long as there was no pressure be
ing exerted but with pressure on it it would go nuts.
>
> Anyway as an end to this story, as much as I didn't much care for the expe
rience it did show me that if I did by accident have a run a way trim I coul
d still control the plane. However whenever I fly I notice that I subconscio
usly always ride with my hand on the stick when the auto pilot is engaged.
>
> Wayne Edgerton
>
> N602WT
>
>
>
>
> Time: 01:38:30 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: performance (pitch trim)
> From: "Bob Turner" <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu>
>
>
> I've put pullable CB's for the trim and autopilot right next to each
other, just
> right of center in front of the pilot, easily reached by the right h
and. I'll
> put a red box around them. My plan is that if the pitch goes nuts, I
'll pull
> both breakers, then sort out the problem.
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout |
Kelly,
Here is a website for ITT, the company contracted to do the
rollout.
http://www.itt.com/adsb/budget.html
I attached a .jpg with how it basically should look now or
within a few days. I got lucky searching for it because I
had just gotten a .pdf of that graphic titled ITT Segment 1
Roll-Out, and by googling "segment" instead of phase it was
near the top of the list.
It's been a long time since I asked them about TSO certification
but I'm nearly certain that TSO'd is their goal. They did
get FCC Certification, and yesterday in talking to them after
doing a beta test on a new release, a couple of random
comments regarding doing things because of certification
requirements were brought up, so I'm sure that's their goal.
They do have the means to utilize external GPS's, like get
your position info from a certified unit like the GNS480
and 430W, so that is a good path for the certified folks.
It also does have an internal GPS with an external antenna
port. I have an external antenna on mine, but since this
one isn't navigational in importance, it's mounted in the
wee space under the forward part of my Vertical Stab
fairing...just onto the metal deck above the trim
servos. For these purposes it should be plenty
good and it's been very reliable for me. I do think
that it's probably going to end up being useless unless
the policy changes, to have only ADS-B IN, and use the
ADS600. If you want ADS-B I think you'll want a full
in/out solution like their ADS600B. From what I
understand, they're starting to only broadcast traffic
for people who are broadcasting, in some areas....the
areas getting the newer GBT's. I think that's a bad
policy from a safety perspective. But, it's do-able
because traffic is broadcast via lat/long, and so they
can easily receive your transmission and say, "ok,
I'll broadcast traffic within 10/20/30 miles of him".
Menwhile, the guy who isn't broadcasting, who's
25 miles away but in good coverage, may not see anything
even that's 2 miles at 12 o'clock headed right at him.
It's something they started doing not all that long ago.
So when you equip, equip with IN/OUT I guess is the
motto.
When I do my trip coming up, I'll be covering a lot of
miles and my write-up will definitely talk about
my traffic coverage experience at that time, so we'll
have to see how good it ends up being. Hopefully
there will be many planes in the sky with me or I
may not know. ;)
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 9/26/2010 8:09 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> Sounds great Tim. Is there some web site where we can see when our own
> local areas will have ADS-B ground stations? I've not had much success
> searching for that information. Has NavWorx given any indication if they
> will seek TSO certification of their ADS600 transceiver? I already see
> needing an extra external GPS antenna for whatever ADS-B unit gets
> installed.
>
> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com
> <mailto:Tim@myrv10.com>> wrote:
>
> <mailto:Tim@myrv10.com>>
>
> I had an interesting day flying today!
> I took a flight 92nm to drop off the kids, and while I was doing it,
> I was beta testing a cool new feature that NavWorx added just
> in the last couple days. More on that when I can.
>
> But anyway, my wife flew on the return leg, so I fired up the laptop
> and did some data logging of the stations I was receiving, up here in
> central/western Wisconsin, now that ADS-B covers us.
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 5
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| Subject: | performance (pitch trim) |
Following this thread I note what seems to be a lack of confidence in the
Ray Allen relays.
As we know, the Infinity Stick top hat switch is not suitable to be used for
trim without relays. I built my own relay stack for my RV-8A as I viewed
the Ray Allen relays too expensive for such a simple job. I have 4
standard but good 12 volt relays from Allied Electronics, one each for trim
up, down, left and right. Simple, cost effective and exceptionally
reliable. I also used the same DPDT relay to provide the reversing function
for the stick flap switch. These relays typically cost $5 to $7 each.
Wiring diagram available off list if interested.
Carl
RV-8A (570 hrs)
RV-10 (engine hung yesterday!)
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2010 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: performance (pitch trim)
Wayne....great story! You did miss one point in your conclusion
though.....yours happened at low airspeed in climbing. If that would have
happened in cruise, I bet the outcome may not have ended the same
way....especially with only single full speed trim. At absolute bare
minimum a speed reduction should be installed for slow trim during cruise.
Also, I really think that LESS than full speed would be annoying and perhaps
in some cases compromise safety for some pilots. So for me, dual speed is a
big deal.
Personally though, I think at 170+ kts that a full-speed nose up trim
runaway to the stops would stand a good chance of bending something.
And if someone were screwing around doing low passes at high speed for show
and they got full speed nose down at 175kts and 100' they'd be toast by the
tome they'd recognize the problem.
At lower climbout speeds though, it's totally different, and it's nice to
hear that you can fight the trim by arm strength.
Tim
On Sep 26, 2010, at 7:45 AM, "Wayne Edgerton" <w.edgerton@verizon.net>
wrote:
I've been reading the concern over runaway trim and thought I would share my
experience with this. Back in, I think, 2007 when Ray Allen came out with
relay II to replace relay I because of problems, we went in and changes out
the relay.
I was going to go up and test the trim with the new relay and someone at the
hangar had never been up in a 10 and wanted to hop in the right seat. We
took off and I was explaining how you used the trim for climb and then again
when you level off. At about 300' I hit the trim up on my hat switch and I
the trim servo went to full stop up in what seemed like two nanoseconds. It
was so fast that even if I could have reached the CB it would have been way
over with by then. I had to put a really large amount of pressure on the
stick to hold it forward, in fact I ask my passenger to put his hand on the
passenger stick to help me hold forward pressure just in case my harm gets
tired.
I was able to hold the stick forward but it took quite a bit of pressure but
I was then wondering how the hell I was going to flair it in the landing
that way. I hadn't really left the pattern so I just pulled down wind and
told the passenger that it will be ok, under my breath saying I hope. Anyway
as I proceeded downwind and as I pulled back on the power the pressure on
the stick started to degrease. As I pulled the power back more the pressure
continued to decrease. I obviously had to be very gentle and careful on
landing to just let back a certain amount on the stick in landing but the
landing went fine.
I taxied back to the hangar and sat there wondering what the hell was that.
I tested the trim and it worked fine. I decided I was going to go back up,
crazy guy, and see if it would do that again and my passenger decided he
would also try it again so if I needed help holding the stick. I went up
and waited a little longer before trying the trim but when I did boom here
we go again, being from TX I had to yell yea hah ride um big boy :>} Anyway
same drill on landing and when we landed we took out the RA relay II and put
back in the relay I and went back up problem solved. I called Ray Allen a
little less than happy and the first words out of their mouths was it wasn't
our relay you wired it wrong. We wired it exactly the same way as we took
out and put back in relay I and II. They sent me another relay and that one
worked fine. For some reason the first one was ok as long as there was no
pressure being exerted but with pressure on it it would go nuts.
Anyway as an end to this story, as much as I didn't much care for the
experience it did show me that if I did by accident have a run a way trim I
could still control the plane. However whenever I fly I notice that I
subconsciously always ride with my hand on the stick when the auto pilot is
engaged.
Wayne Edgerton
N602WT
Time:
01:38:30 PM PST US
Subject:
Re: performance (pitch trim)
From:
"Bob Turner" <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu>
I've put pullable CB's for the trim and autopilot right next to each
other, just
right of center in front of the pilot, easily reached by the right
hand. I'll
put a red box around them. My plan is that if the pitch goes nuts,
I'll pull
both breakers, then sort out the problem.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
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Navigator?RV10-List
==================================
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http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout |
Thanks for all that detail Tim. Exactly what I was looking for. I agree that
the 6000B makes more sense to ensure you are triggering traffic
transmission.
On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 6:43 AM, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
> Kelly,
>
> Here is a website for ITT, the company contracted to do the
> rollout.
> http://www.itt.com/adsb/budget.html
> I attached a .jpg with how it basically should look now or
> within a few days. I got lucky searching for it because I
> had just gotten a .pdf of that graphic titled ITT Segment 1
> Roll-Out, and by googling "segment" instead of phase it was
> near the top of the list.
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout |
Who's ADS-b hardware do you have? I was going to add the NavWorx system to
my 8A but I was told they were not shipping.
Robin
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout |
I have NavWorX. You are correct about not shipping for a short time. A cobham
subsidiary supplied part that was defective is held up until they deliver some
good ones. But it hopefully will be shipping again in the not too distant future.
You'll have to ask them about the timeline but it'll be coming.
Tim
Do not archive
On Sep 26, 2010, at 10:33 AM, Robin Marks <Robin@PaintTheWeb.com> wrote:
>
> Who's ADS-b hardware do you have? I was going to add the NavWorx system to
> my 8A but I was told they were not shipping.
>
> Robin
>
>
>
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