---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 09/26/10: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:52 AM - Re: performance (pitch trim) (Wayne Edgerton) 2. 06:12 AM - Re: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout (Kelly McMullen) 3. 06:27 AM - Re: performance (pitch trim) (Tim Olson) 4. 06:51 AM - Re: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout (Tim Olson) 5. 07:34 AM - Re: performance (pitch trim) (Carl Froehlich) 6. 07:35 AM - Re: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout (Kelly McMullen) 7. 08:41 AM - Re: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout (Robin Marks) 8. 12:21 PM - Re: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout (Tim Olson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:42 AM PST US From: "Wayne Edgerton" Subject: Re: RV10-List: performance (pitch trim) I've been reading the concern over runaway trim and thought I would share my experience with this. Back in, I think, 2007 when Ray Allen came out with relay II to replace relay I because of problems, we went in and changes out the relay. I was going to go up and test the trim with the new relay and someone at the hangar had never been up in a 10 and wanted to hop in the right seat. We took off and I was explaining how you used the trim for climb and then again when you level off. At about 300' I hit the trim up on my hat switch and I the trim servo went to full stop up in what seemed like two nanoseconds. It was so fast that even if I could have reached the CB it would have been way over with by then. I had to put a really large amount of pressure on the stick to hold it forward, in fact I ask my passenger to put his hand on the passenger stick to help me hold forward pressure just in case my harm gets tired. I was able to hold the stick forward but it took quite a bit of pressure but I was then wondering how the hell I was going to flair it in the landing that way. I hadn't really left the pattern so I just pulled down wind and told the passenger that it will be ok, under my breath saying I hope. Anyway as I proceeded downwind and as I pulled back on the power the pressure on the stick started to degrease. As I pulled the power back more the pressure continued to decrease. I obviously had to be very gentle and careful on landing to just let back a certain amount on the stick in landing but the landing went fine. I taxied back to the hangar and sat there wondering what the hell was that. I tested the trim and it worked fine. I decided I was going to go back up, crazy guy, and see if it would do that again and my passenger decided he would also try it again so if I needed help holding the stick. I went up and waited a little longer before trying the trim but when I did boom here we go again, being from TX I had to yell yea hah ride um big boy :>} Anyway same drill on landing and when we landed we took out the RA relay II and put back in the relay I and went back up problem solved. I called Ray Allen a little less than happy and the first words out of their mouths was it wasn't our relay you wired it wrong. We wired it exactly the same way as we took out and put back in relay I and II. They sent me another relay and that one worked fine. For some reason the first one was ok as long as there was no pressure being exerted but with pressure on it it would go nuts. Anyway as an end to this story, as much as I didn't much care for the experience it did show me that if I did by accident have a run a way trim I could still control the plane. However whenever I fly I notice that I subconsciously always ride with my hand on the stick when the auto pilot is engaged. Wayne Edgerton N602WT Time: 01:38:30 PM PST US Subject: Re: performance (pitch trim) From: "Bob Turner" I've put pullable CB's for the trim and autopilot right next to each other, just right of center in front of the pilot, easily reached by the right hand. I'll put a red box around them. My plan is that if the pitch goes nuts, I'll pull both breakers, then sort out the problem. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout From: Kelly McMullen Sounds great Tim. Is there some web site where we can see when our own local areas will have ADS-B ground stations? I've not had much success searching for that information. Has NavWorx given any indication if they will seek TSO certification of their ADS600 transceiver? I already see needing an extra external GPS antenna for whatever ADS-B unit gets installed. On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > I had an interesting day flying today! > I took a flight 92nm to drop off the kids, and while I was doing it, > I was beta testing a cool new feature that NavWorx added just > in the last couple days. More on that when I can. > > But anyway, my wife flew on the return leg, so I fired up the laptop and > did some data logging of the stations I was receiving, up here in > central/western Wisconsin, now that ADS-B covers us. > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: performance (pitch trim) From: Tim Olson Wayne....great story! You did miss one point in your conclusion though.... .yours happened at low airspeed in climbing. If that would have happened in cruise, I bet the outcome may not have ended the same way....especially wit h only single full speed trim. At absolute bare minimum a speed reduction s hould be installed for slow trim during cruise. Also, I really think that L ESS than full speed would be annoying and perhaps in some cases compromise s afety for some pilots. So for me, dual speed is a big deal. Personally though, I think at 170+ kts that a full-speed nose up trim runawa y to the stops would stand a good chance of bending something. And if someone were screwing around doing low passes at high speed for show a nd they got full speed nose down at 175kts and 100' they'd be toast by the t ome they'd recognize the problem. At lower climbout speeds though, it's totally different, and it's nice to he ar that you can fight the trim by arm strength. Tim On Sep 26, 2010, at 7:45 AM, "Wayne Edgerton" wrote : > I've been reading the concern over runaway trim and thought I would share m y experience with this. Back in, I think, 2007 when Ray Allen came out with r elay II to replace relay I because of problems, we went in and changes out t he relay. > > I was going to go up and test the trim with the new relay and someone at t he hangar had never been up in a 10 and wanted to hop in the right seat. We t ook off and I was explaining how you used the trim for climb and then again w hen you level off. At about 300' I hit the trim up on my hat switch and I th e trim servo went to full stop up in what seemed like two nanoseconds. It wa s so fast that even if I could have reached the CB it would have been way ov er with by then. I had to put a really large amount of pressure on the stic k to hold it forward, in fact I ask my passenger to put his hand on the pass enger stick to help me hold forward pressure just in case my harm gets tired .. > > I was able to hold the stick forward but it took quite a bit of pressure b ut I was then wondering how the hell I was going to flair it in the landing t hat way. I hadn't really left the pattern so I just pulled down wind and tol d the passenger that it will be ok, under my breath saying I hope. Anyway as I proceeded downwind and as I pulled back on the power the pressure on the s tick started to degrease. As I pulled the power back more the pressure conti nued to decrease. I obviously had to be very gentle and careful on landing t o just let back a certain amount on the stick in landing but the landing wen t fine. > > I taxied back to the hangar and sat there wondering what the hell was that . I tested the trim and it worked fine. I decided I was going to go back up, crazy guy, and see if it would do that again and my passenger decided he wo uld also try it again so if I needed help holding the stick. I went up and w aited a little longer before trying the trim but when I did boom here we go a gain, being from TX I had to yell yea hah ride um big boy :>} Anyway same dr ill on landing and when we landed we took out the RA relay II and put back i n the relay I and went back up problem solved. I called Ray Allen a little l ess than happy and the first words out of their mouths was it wasn't our rel ay you wired it wrong. We wired it exactly the same way as we took out and p ut back in relay I and II. They sent me another relay and that one worked fi ne. For some reason the first one was ok as long as there was no pressure be ing exerted but with pressure on it it would go nuts. > > Anyway as an end to this story, as much as I didn't much care for the expe rience it did show me that if I did by accident have a run a way trim I coul d still control the plane. However whenever I fly I notice that I subconscio usly always ride with my hand on the stick when the auto pilot is engaged. > > Wayne Edgerton > > N602WT > > > > > Time: 01:38:30 PM PST US > Subject: Re: performance (pitch trim) > From: "Bob Turner" > > > I've put pullable CB's for the trim and autopilot right next to each other, just > right of center in front of the pilot, easily reached by the right h and. I'll > put a red box around them. My plan is that if the pitch goes nuts, I 'll pull > both breakers, then sort out the problem. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:59 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout Kelly, Here is a website for ITT, the company contracted to do the rollout. http://www.itt.com/adsb/budget.html I attached a .jpg with how it basically should look now or within a few days. I got lucky searching for it because I had just gotten a .pdf of that graphic titled ITT Segment 1 Roll-Out, and by googling "segment" instead of phase it was near the top of the list. It's been a long time since I asked them about TSO certification but I'm nearly certain that TSO'd is their goal. They did get FCC Certification, and yesterday in talking to them after doing a beta test on a new release, a couple of random comments regarding doing things because of certification requirements were brought up, so I'm sure that's their goal. They do have the means to utilize external GPS's, like get your position info from a certified unit like the GNS480 and 430W, so that is a good path for the certified folks. It also does have an internal GPS with an external antenna port. I have an external antenna on mine, but since this one isn't navigational in importance, it's mounted in the wee space under the forward part of my Vertical Stab fairing...just onto the metal deck above the trim servos. For these purposes it should be plenty good and it's been very reliable for me. I do think that it's probably going to end up being useless unless the policy changes, to have only ADS-B IN, and use the ADS600. If you want ADS-B I think you'll want a full in/out solution like their ADS600B. From what I understand, they're starting to only broadcast traffic for people who are broadcasting, in some areas....the areas getting the newer GBT's. I think that's a bad policy from a safety perspective. But, it's do-able because traffic is broadcast via lat/long, and so they can easily receive your transmission and say, "ok, I'll broadcast traffic within 10/20/30 miles of him". Menwhile, the guy who isn't broadcasting, who's 25 miles away but in good coverage, may not see anything even that's 2 miles at 12 o'clock headed right at him. It's something they started doing not all that long ago. So when you equip, equip with IN/OUT I guess is the motto. When I do my trip coming up, I'll be covering a lot of miles and my write-up will definitely talk about my traffic coverage experience at that time, so we'll have to see how good it ends up being. Hopefully there will be many planes in the sky with me or I may not know. ;) Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive On 9/26/2010 8:09 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > Sounds great Tim. Is there some web site where we can see when our own > local areas will have ADS-B ground stations? I've not had much success > searching for that information. Has NavWorx given any indication if they > will seek TSO certification of their ADS600 transceiver? I already see > needing an extra external GPS antenna for whatever ADS-B unit gets > installed. > > On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Tim Olson > wrote: > > > > > I had an interesting day flying today! > I took a flight 92nm to drop off the kids, and while I was doing it, > I was beta testing a cool new feature that NavWorx added just > in the last couple days. More on that when I can. > > But anyway, my wife flew on the return leg, so I fired up the laptop > and did some data logging of the stations I was receiving, up here in > central/western Wisconsin, now that ADS-B covers us. > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:43 AM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV10-List: performance (pitch trim) Following this thread I note what seems to be a lack of confidence in the Ray Allen relays. As we know, the Infinity Stick top hat switch is not suitable to be used for trim without relays. I built my own relay stack for my RV-8A as I viewed the Ray Allen relays too expensive for such a simple job. I have 4 standard but good 12 volt relays from Allied Electronics, one each for trim up, down, left and right. Simple, cost effective and exceptionally reliable. I also used the same DPDT relay to provide the reversing function for the stick flap switch. These relays typically cost $5 to $7 each. Wiring diagram available off list if interested. Carl RV-8A (570 hrs) RV-10 (engine hung yesterday!) From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2010 9:22 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: performance (pitch trim) Wayne....great story! You did miss one point in your conclusion though.....yours happened at low airspeed in climbing. If that would have happened in cruise, I bet the outcome may not have ended the same way....especially with only single full speed trim. At absolute bare minimum a speed reduction should be installed for slow trim during cruise. Also, I really think that LESS than full speed would be annoying and perhaps in some cases compromise safety for some pilots. So for me, dual speed is a big deal. Personally though, I think at 170+ kts that a full-speed nose up trim runaway to the stops would stand a good chance of bending something. And if someone were screwing around doing low passes at high speed for show and they got full speed nose down at 175kts and 100' they'd be toast by the tome they'd recognize the problem. At lower climbout speeds though, it's totally different, and it's nice to hear that you can fight the trim by arm strength. Tim On Sep 26, 2010, at 7:45 AM, "Wayne Edgerton" wrote: I've been reading the concern over runaway trim and thought I would share my experience with this. Back in, I think, 2007 when Ray Allen came out with relay II to replace relay I because of problems, we went in and changes out the relay. I was going to go up and test the trim with the new relay and someone at the hangar had never been up in a 10 and wanted to hop in the right seat. We took off and I was explaining how you used the trim for climb and then again when you level off. At about 300' I hit the trim up on my hat switch and I the trim servo went to full stop up in what seemed like two nanoseconds. It was so fast that even if I could have reached the CB it would have been way over with by then. I had to put a really large amount of pressure on the stick to hold it forward, in fact I ask my passenger to put his hand on the passenger stick to help me hold forward pressure just in case my harm gets tired. I was able to hold the stick forward but it took quite a bit of pressure but I was then wondering how the hell I was going to flair it in the landing that way. I hadn't really left the pattern so I just pulled down wind and told the passenger that it will be ok, under my breath saying I hope. Anyway as I proceeded downwind and as I pulled back on the power the pressure on the stick started to degrease. As I pulled the power back more the pressure continued to decrease. I obviously had to be very gentle and careful on landing to just let back a certain amount on the stick in landing but the landing went fine. I taxied back to the hangar and sat there wondering what the hell was that. I tested the trim and it worked fine. I decided I was going to go back up, crazy guy, and see if it would do that again and my passenger decided he would also try it again so if I needed help holding the stick. I went up and waited a little longer before trying the trim but when I did boom here we go again, being from TX I had to yell yea hah ride um big boy :>} Anyway same drill on landing and when we landed we took out the RA relay II and put back in the relay I and went back up problem solved. I called Ray Allen a little less than happy and the first words out of their mouths was it wasn't our relay you wired it wrong. We wired it exactly the same way as we took out and put back in relay I and II. They sent me another relay and that one worked fine. For some reason the first one was ok as long as there was no pressure being exerted but with pressure on it it would go nuts. Anyway as an end to this story, as much as I didn't much care for the experience it did show me that if I did by accident have a run a way trim I could still control the plane. However whenever I fly I notice that I subconsciously always ride with my hand on the stick when the auto pilot is engaged. Wayne Edgerton N602WT Time: 01:38:30 PM PST US Subject: Re: performance (pitch trim) From: "Bob Turner" I've put pullable CB's for the trim and autopilot right next to each other, just right of center in front of the pilot, easily reached by the right hand. I'll put a red box around them. My plan is that if the pitch goes nuts, I'll pull both breakers, then sort out the problem. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB ================================== ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?RV10-List ================================== ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ================================== http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ================================== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:35 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout From: Kelly McMullen Thanks for all that detail Tim. Exactly what I was looking for. I agree that the 6000B makes more sense to ensure you are triggering traffic transmission. On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 6:43 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > Kelly, > > Here is a website for ITT, the company contracted to do the > rollout. > http://www.itt.com/adsb/budget.html > I attached a .jpg with how it basically should look now or > within a few days. I got lucky searching for it because I > had just gotten a .pdf of that graphic titled ITT Segment 1 > Roll-Out, and by googling "segment" instead of phase it was > near the top of the list. > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:09 AM PST US From: Robin Marks Subject: RE: RV10-List: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout Who's ADS-b hardware do you have? I was going to add the NavWorx system to my 8A but I was told they were not shipping. Robin ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:21:53 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Wisconsin ADS-B Rollout I have NavWorX. You are correct about not shipping for a short time. A cobham subsidiary supplied part that was defective is held up until they deliver some good ones. But it hopefully will be shipping again in the not too distant future. You'll have to ask them about the timeline but it'll be coming. Tim Do not archive On Sep 26, 2010, at 10:33 AM, Robin Marks wrote: > > Who's ADS-b hardware do you have? I was going to add the NavWorx system to > my 8A but I was told they were not shipping. > > Robin > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.