Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:51 AM - Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (Vijay Pisini)
2. 05:08 AM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (Kelly McMullen)
3. 05:26 AM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (Jack Phillips)
4. 06:57 AM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (DLM)
5. 07:03 AM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (DLM)
6. 07:48 AM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (DLM)
7. 09:37 AM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Step (rv10flyer)
8. 09:59 AM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Step (Lenny Iszak)
9. 11:08 AM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (William Curtis)
10. 11:44 AM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (Neil & Sarah Colliver)
11. 12:10 PM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (William Curtis)
12. 01:07 PM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (Bill Watson)
13. 02:02 PM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (Vijay Pisini)
14. 02:04 PM - Engine heater (Marcus Cooper)
15. 02:08 PM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (John Cox)
16. 02:09 PM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (Vijay Pisini)
17. 02:22 PM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (Vijay Pisini)
18. 02:39 PM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (Kelly McMullen)
19. 02:39 PM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (DLM)
20. 02:45 PM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (Vijay Pisini)
21. 02:56 PM - Re: Engine heater (Michael Kraus)
22. 03:15 PM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (Vijay Pisini)
23. 03:53 PM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (Bill Watson)
24. 03:56 PM - Re: Engine heater (Tim Olson)
25. 04:22 PM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (William Curtis)
26. 05:04 PM - Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler) (Neil & Sarah Colliver)
27. 07:16 PM - Re: Engine heater (Les Kearney)
28. 07:28 PM - Re: Engine heater (Rick Lark)
29. 10:11 PM - Hole in fuselage under wing (David Leikam)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Stepped |
bar, Doubler)
Hello,
Does anyone know the type of material used (T2024 T4 etc) for front/main wing
spar parts (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler)? The front spar comes assembled with
these three riveted together.
It is not appropriate if I do not mention as to why I need it. So here it
goes...the mission is Around The World in RV-10. I shared this info with fellow
RV-10 builders at OSH'10 Camp Scholler. Neil Colliver gave good piece of
information (through email, though he suggested not to make a major mod such as
this for various reasons) and Bob Condrey encouraged/insisted on running the
numbers first before going forward with outboard tank idea. Obviously as
everyone on this list knows that Van's doesn't want to give any engineering info
on this.
I need the material information to model the wing in the analysis that I'm doing
with the help of two of my colleagues who are familiar with modeling and
simulation. This is to add an extra tank (outboard tank...same size as original
inboard tank) and make sure that the structure can hold the extra load on the
wing. FEM analysis is almost complete (3-4 months in the making) and want to
make sure that the material is the right type of material.
The tool we are using is Auto Desk Inventor. We are not able to model the skin
correctly in this tool, but the take away from this analysis is the trend (as we
can't get exact numbers unless we model each and every part in the wing
including the rivets). By that I mean the Safety Factor trend (increase or
decrease...increase is good) with and without beefing up (differentoptions of
beefing up) the spar structure. The area in spot light is the gap (1 ft gap)
between the two tanks (thanks to Neil who passed the conern to me concentrate on
this area as expressed by Van's itself) where the loads are concentrated because
the two tanks themselves add strength to the structure (spar) where they are
located. With the modeled wing, the safety factor will tell as to at what "g"
the structure with break. My goal is to keep this "g"above 150% of 3.8 which
is what a utility category aircraft is designed for in general. So far, the
results are encouraging. Van's says that as long as we can keep the "g" below
3.8, we probably do not need to worry about beefing up the structure with
outboard tank installed...but I can't guarantee that I'll be below 3.8 in severe
turbulence.
I want to mention that this sort of adventure (building the airplane for this
mission and flying it) is not for the faint-hearted or the nay-sayers. For an
adventure like this, I need to push the envelope a bit, but it should be a
calculated risk and not a blind one. My plan is to have 225 gallons of fuel for
couple of long legs (eg: California to Hawaii)...yes, I'll be over the gross wt
by aournd 15%-20% at the start of these legs. Fuel management is another
challenge and I have a locked-in plan for it (thanks to Detlef Heun's design
which is a part of my fuel management design...heis in the middle of his Flight
Around the World adventure on his RV-7 with his wife Liliana).
Any help with constructive criticism to get me through this build process from
you all is very much appreciated. So far, I have completed the empennage (not
the attach portion though, since I don't have room in my garage), Ailerons,
Flaps, 3/4th of 2 fuel tanks (yet to seal them). Copied rudder trim from Tim
Olson's website. Passed 500 hrs (total time) mark...and in 3 years from now, my
plane should fly. Once the analysis is done, I'll upload all the details on my
web page (not updated in a long time). Please let me know if anyone has a
question for me. Thanks.
vj
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
While I do not have the information you seek, I do recall a few RV-10s
advertised for sale with 120 gal fuel capacity, built by someone in the
mid-western US, maybe Kansas.
On 1/8/2011 5:46 AM, Vijay Pisini wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Vijay Pisini<vijaypisini@yahoo.com>
>
> Hello,
>
> Does anyone know the type of material used (T2024 T4 etc) for front/main wing
> spar parts (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler)? The front spar comes assembled with
> these three riveted together.
>
> It is not appropriate if I do not mention as to why I need it. So here it
> goes...the mission is Around The World in RV-10. I shared this info with fellow
> RV-10 builders at OSH'10 Camp Scholler. Neil Colliver gave good piece of
> information (through email, though he suggested not to make a major mod such
as
> this for various reasons) and Bob Condrey encouraged/insisted on running the
> numbers first before going forward with outboard tank idea. Obviously as
> everyone on this list knows that Van's doesn't want to give any engineering info
> on this.
>
> I need the material information to model the wing in the analysis that I'm doing
> with the help of two of my colleagues who are familiar with modeling and
> simulation. This is to add an extra tank (outboard tank...same size as original
> inboard tank) and make sure that the structure can hold the extra load on the
> wing. FEM analysis is almost complete (3-4 months in the making) and want to
> make sure that the material is the right type of material.
>
>
> The tool we are using is Auto Desk Inventor. We are not able to model the skin
> correctly in this tool, but the take away from this analysis is the trend (as
we
> can't get exact numbers unless we model each and every part in the wing
> including the rivets). By that I mean the Safety Factor trend (increase or
> decrease...increase is good) with and without beefing up (different options of
> beefing up) the spar structure. The area in spot light is the gap (1 ft gap)
> between the two tanks (thanks to Neil who passed the conern to me concentrate
on
> this area as expressed by Van's itself) where the loads are concentrated because
> the two tanks themselves add strength to the structure (spar) where they are
> located. With the modeled wing, the safety factor will tell as to at what "g"
> the structure with break. My goal is to keep this "g" above 150% of 3.8 which
> is what a utility category aircraft is designed for in general. So far, the
> results are encouraging. Van's says that as long as we can keep the "g" below
> 3.8, we probably do not need to worry about beefing up the structure with
> outboard tank installed...but I can't guarantee that I'll be below 3.8 in severe
> turbulence.
>
> I want to mention that this sort of adventure (building the airplane for this
> mission and flying it) is not for the faint-hearted or the nay-sayers. For an
> adventure like this, I need to push the envelope a bit, but it should be a
> calculated risk and not a blind one. My plan is to have 225 gallons of fuel
for
> couple of long legs (eg: California to Hawaii)...yes, I'll be over the gross
wt
> by aournd 15%-20% at the start of these legs. Fuel management is another
> challenge and I have a locked-in plan for it (thanks to Detlef Heun's design
> which is a part of my fuel management design...he is in the middle of his Flight
> Around the World adventure on his RV-7 with his wife Liliana).
>
> Any help with constructive criticism to get me through this build process from
> you all is very much appreciated. So far, I have completed the empennage (not
> the attach portion though, since I don't have room in my garage), Ailerons,
> Flaps, 3/4th of 2 fuel tanks (yet to seal them). Copied rudder trim from Tim
> Olson's website. Passed 500 hrs (total time) mark...and in 3 years from now,
my
> plane should fly. Once the analysis is done, I'll upload all the details on
my
> web page (not updated in a long time). Please let me know if anyone has a
> question for me. Thanks.
>
>
> vj
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
VJ,
Congratulations on such a plan! I don't expect you to have much trouble
with the stresses and loadings.
I would be very surprised if the spar material is not 2024-T3, or 2024-T351
for the thick web and the stepped bar. That is pretty much the standard
structural material that the entire airplane is made of. At room
temperatures, the tensile strength is 68,000 psi and the yield strength is
47,000 psi for the T351 parts. T3 is used for sheet and has slightly higher
properties (70,000 psi ultimate, 50,000 psi yield).
However, I don't know how to verify this since the anodizing process removes
the mill markings from the material. Van's gets most of their aluminum from
Kaiser Aluminum. Perhaps they can verify the alloy and grade used.
If you can verify the material and condition, please post it to the List.
Jack Phillips, PE
#40610 wings
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vijay Pisini
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:47 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb,
Stepped bar, Doubler)
Hello,
Does anyone know the type of material used (T2024 T4 etc) for front/main
wing
spar parts (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler)? The front spar comes assembled
with
these three riveted together.
It is not appropriate if I do not mention as to why I need it. So here it
goes...the mission is Around The World in RV-10. I shared this info with
fellow
RV-10 builders at OSH'10 Camp Scholler. Neil Colliver gave good piece of
information (through email, though he suggested not to make a major mod such
as
this for various reasons) and Bob Condrey encouraged/insisted on running the
numbers first before going forward with outboard tank idea. Obviously as
everyone on this list knows that Van's doesn't want to give any engineering
info
on this.
I need the material information to model the wing in the analysis that I'm
doing
with the help of two of my colleagues who are familiar with modeling and
simulation. This is to add an extra tank (outboard tank...same size as
original
inboard tank) and make sure that the structure can hold the extra load on
the
wing. FEM analysis is almost complete (3-4 months in the making) and want
to
make sure that the material is the right type of material.
The tool we are using is Auto Desk Inventor. We are not able to model the
skin
correctly in this tool, but the take away from this analysis is the trend
(as we
can't get exact numbers unless we model each and every part in the wing
including the rivets). By that I mean the Safety Factor trend (increase or
decrease...increase is good) with and without beefing up (differentoptions
of
beefing up) the spar structure. The area in spot light is the gap (1 ft
gap)
between the two tanks (thanks to Neil who passed the conern to me
concentrate on
this area as expressed by Van's itself) where the loads are concentrated
because
the two tanks themselves add strength to the structure (spar) where they are
located. With the modeled wing, the safety factor will tell as to at what
"g"
the structure with break. My goal is to keep this "g"above 150% of 3.8
which
is what a utility category aircraft is designed for in general. So far, the
results are encouraging. Van's says that as long as we can keep the "g"
below
3.8, we probably do not need to worry about beefing up the structure with
outboard tank installed...but I can't guarantee that I'll be below 3.8 in
severe
turbulence.
I want to mention that this sort of adventure (building the airplane for
this
mission and flying it) is not for the faint-hearted or the nay-sayers. For
an
adventure like this, I need to push the envelope a bit, but it should be a
calculated risk and not a blind one. My plan is to have 225 gallons of fuel
for
couple of long legs (eg: California to Hawaii)...yes, I'll be over the gross
wt
by aournd 15%-20% at the start of these legs. Fuel management is another
challenge and I have a locked-in plan for it (thanks to Detlef Heun's design
which is a part of my fuel management design...heis in the middle of his
Flight
Around the World adventure on his RV-7 with his wife Liliana).
Any help with constructive criticism to get me through this build process
from
you all is very much appreciated. So far, I have completed the empennage
(not
the attach portion though, since I don't have room in my garage), Ailerons,
Flaps, 3/4th of 2 fuel tanks (yet to seal them). Copied rudder trim from
Tim
Olson's website. Passed 500 hrs (total time) mark...and in 3 years from
now, my
plane should fly. Once the analysis is done, I'll upload all the details on
my
web page (not updated in a long time). Please let me know if anyone has a
question for me. Thanks.
vj
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
I talked extensively with Kruger about this. 120 gallon in the wings only
presents a problem on an overweight landing due to the possibility of
negative load on the spar at touchdown. The fuel in flight lifts itself and
imposes less positive bending moment on the spar. All the fuel is on the CG.
we discussed two additional tanks outboard of the main tanks and separate
from the mains so that for most operations the outboards would be empty and
would only be used so that the first 60 would be transferred to the mains
before landing. Obviously emergency considerations must be addressed such as
overweight landing due to other reasons. failed transfer pumps, fuel vents
etc. The TX guys that were doing this were building for Australian use (to
the outback, no fuel) and one in FL had designs on FL to Costa Rica. We have
considered a change to a flying aircraft but before we do, it will get a
through look by engineer friends at the Big Aircraft Company.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vijay Pisini" <vijaypisini@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 5:46 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb,
Stepped bar, Doubler)
>
> Hello,
>
> Does anyone know the type of material used (T2024 T4 etc) for front/main
> wing
> spar parts (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler)? The front spar comes assembled
> with
> these three riveted together.
>
> It is not appropriate if I do not mention as to why I need it. So here it
> goes...the mission is Around The World in RV-10. I shared this info with
> fellow
> RV-10 builders at OSH'10 Camp Scholler. Neil Colliver gave good piece of
> information (through email, though he suggested not to make a major mod
> such as
> this for various reasons) and Bob Condrey encouraged/insisted on running
> the
> numbers first before going forward with outboard tank idea. Obviously as
> everyone on this list knows that Van's doesn't want to give any
> engineering info
> on this.
>
> I need the material information to model the wing in the analysis that I'm
> doing
> with the help of two of my colleagues who are familiar with modeling and
> simulation. This is to add an extra tank (outboard tank...same size as
> original
> inboard tank) and make sure that the structure can hold the extra load on
> the
> wing. FEM analysis is almost complete (3-4 months in the making) and want
> to
> make sure that the material is the right type of material.
>
>
> The tool we are using is Auto Desk Inventor. We are not able to model the
> skin
> correctly in this tool, but the take away from this analysis is the trend
> (as we
> can't get exact numbers unless we model each and every part in the wing
> including the rivets). By that I mean the Safety Factor trend (increase or
> decrease...increase is good) with and without beefing up (different
> options of
> beefing up) the spar structure. The area in spot light is the gap (1 ft
> gap)
> between the two tanks (thanks to Neil who passed the conern to me
> concentrate on
> this area as expressed by Van's itself) where the loads are concentrated
> because
> the two tanks themselves add strength to the structure (spar) where they
> are
> located. With the modeled wing, the safety factor will tell as to at what
> "g"
> the structure with break. My goal is to keep this "g" above 150% of 3.8
> which
> is what a utility category aircraft is designed for in general. So far,
> the
> results are encouraging. Van's says that as long as we can keep the "g"
> below
> 3.8, we probably do not need to worry about beefing up the structure with
> outboard tank installed...but I can't guarantee that I'll be below 3.8 in
> severe
> turbulence.
>
> I want to mention that this sort of adventure (building the airplane for
> this
> mission and flying it) is not for the faint-hearted or the nay-sayers. For
> an
> adventure like this, I need to push the envelope a bit, but it should be a
> calculated risk and not a blind one. My plan is to have 225 gallons of
> fuel for
> couple of long legs (eg: California to Hawaii)...yes, I'll be over the
> gross wt
> by aournd 15%-20% at the start of these legs. Fuel management is another
> challenge and I have a locked-in plan for it (thanks to Detlef Heun's
> design
> which is a part of my fuel management design...he is in the middle of his
> Flight
> Around the World adventure on his RV-7 with his wife Liliana).
>
> Any help with constructive criticism to get me through this build process
> from
> you all is very much appreciated. So far, I have completed the empennage
> (not
> the attach portion though, since I don't have room in my garage),
> Ailerons,
> Flaps, 3/4th of 2 fuel tanks (yet to seal them). Copied rudder trim from
> Tim
> Olson's website. Passed 500 hrs (total time) mark...and in 3 years from
> now, my
> plane should fly. Once the analysis is done, I'll upload all the details
> on my
> web page (not updated in a long time). Please let me know if anyone has a
> question for me. Thanks.
>
>
> vj
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
They were built at an airport just north of KSAT. www.airnav.com is down now
but a fuel price check of KSAT area will yield and airport about 10 North.
Contact the field ; there were two aircraft being built with 120 gallon fuel
in the wings.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly McMullen" <kellym@aviating.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 6:05 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Need the type of material for front wing spar
(Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler)
>
> While I do not have the information you seek, I do recall a few RV-10s
> advertised for sale with 120 gal fuel capacity, built by someone in the
> mid-western US, maybe Kansas.
>
>
> On 1/8/2011 5:46 AM, Vijay Pisini wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Vijay Pisini<vijaypisini@yahoo.com>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Does anyone know the type of material used (T2024 T4 etc) for front/main
>> wing
>> spar parts (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler)? The front spar comes
>> assembled with
>> these three riveted together.
>> It is not appropriate if I do not mention as to why I need it. So here
>> it
>> goes...the mission is Around The World in RV-10. I shared this info with
>> fellow
>> RV-10 builders at OSH'10 Camp Scholler. Neil Colliver gave good piece of
>> information (through email, though he suggested not to make a major mod
>> such as
>> this for various reasons) and Bob Condrey encouraged/insisted on running
>> the
>> numbers first before going forward with outboard tank idea. Obviously as
>> everyone on this list knows that Van's doesn't want to give any
>> engineering info
>> on this.
>> I need the material information to model the wing in the analysis that
>> I'm doing
>> with the help of two of my colleagues who are familiar with modeling and
>> simulation. This is to add an extra tank (outboard tank...same size as
>> original
>> inboard tank) and make sure that the structure can hold the extra load on
>> the
>> wing. FEM analysis is almost complete (3-4 months in the making) and
>> want to
>> make sure that the material is the right type of material.
>> The tool we are using is Auto Desk Inventor. We are not able to model
>> the skin
>> correctly in this tool, but the take away from this analysis is the trend
>> (as we
>> can't get exact numbers unless we model each and every part in the wing
>> including the rivets). By that I mean the Safety Factor trend (increase
>> or
>> decrease...increase is good) with and without beefing up (different
>> options of
>> beefing up) the spar structure. The area in spot light is the gap (1 ft
>> gap)
>> between the two tanks (thanks to Neil who passed the conern to me
>> concentrate on
>> this area as expressed by Van's itself) where the loads are concentrated
>> because
>> the two tanks themselves add strength to the structure (spar) where they
>> are
>> located. With the modeled wing, the safety factor will tell as to at
>> what "g"
>> the structure with break. My goal is to keep this "g" above 150% of 3.8
>> which
>> is what a utility category aircraft is designed for in general. So far,
>> the
>> results are encouraging. Van's says that as long as we can keep the "g"
>> below
>> 3.8, we probably do not need to worry about beefing up the structure with
>> outboard tank installed...but I can't guarantee that I'll be below 3.8 in
>> severe
>> turbulence.
>> I want to mention that this sort of adventure (building the airplane
>> for this
>> mission and flying it) is not for the faint-hearted or the nay-sayers.
>> For an
>> adventure like this, I need to push the envelope a bit, but it should be
>> a
>> calculated risk and not a blind one. My plan is to have 225 gallons of
>> fuel for
>> couple of long legs (eg: California to Hawaii)...yes, I'll be over the
>> gross wt
>> by aournd 15%-20% at the start of these legs. Fuel management is another
>> challenge and I have a locked-in plan for it (thanks to Detlef Heun's
>> design
>> which is a part of my fuel management design...he is in the middle of his
>> Flight
>> Around the World adventure on his RV-7 with his wife Liliana).
>> Any help with constructive criticism to get me through this build
>> process from
>> you all is very much appreciated. So far, I have completed the empennage
>> (not
>> the attach portion though, since I don't have room in my garage),
>> Ailerons,
>> Flaps, 3/4th of 2 fuel tanks (yet to seal them). Copied rudder trim from
>> Tim
>> Olson's website. Passed 500 hrs (total time) mark...and in 3 years from
>> now, my
>> plane should fly. Once the analysis is done, I'll upload all the details
>> on my
>> web page (not updated in a long time). Please let me know if anyone has
>> a
>> question for me. Thanks.
>> vj
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
The airport in TX was, I believe, at Bulverde. I stopped there to pick up a
friend who was driving out for lunch. unfortunately she drove to Boerne
field, about 10 directly west.
----- Original Message -----
From: "DLM" <dlm34077@q.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Need the type of material for front wing spar
(Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler)
>
> I talked extensively with Kruger about this. 120 gallon in the wings only
> presents a problem on an overweight landing due to the possibility of
> negative load on the spar at touchdown. The fuel in flight lifts itself
> and imposes less positive bending moment on the spar. All the fuel is on
> the CG. we discussed two additional tanks outboard of the main tanks and
> separate from the mains so that for most operations the outboards would be
> empty and would only be used so that the first 60 would be transferred to
> the mains before landing. Obviously emergency considerations must be
> addressed such as overweight landing due to other reasons. failed transfer
> pumps, fuel vents etc. The TX guys that were doing this were building for
> Australian use (to the outback, no fuel) and one in FL had designs on FL
> to Costa Rica. We have considered a change to a flying aircraft but before
> we do, it will get a through look by engineer friends at the Big Aircraft
> Company.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vijay Pisini" <vijaypisini@yahoo.com>
> To: "rv10" <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 5:46 AM
> Subject: RV10-List: Need the type of material for front wing spar
> (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler)
>
>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Does anyone know the type of material used (T2024 T4 etc) for front/main
>> wing
>> spar parts (Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler)? The front spar comes
>> assembled with
>> these three riveted together.
>>
>> It is not appropriate if I do not mention as to why I need it. So here it
>> goes...the mission is Around The World in RV-10. I shared this info with
>> fellow
>> RV-10 builders at OSH'10 Camp Scholler. Neil Colliver gave good piece of
>> information (through email, though he suggested not to make a major mod
>> such as
>> this for various reasons) and Bob Condrey encouraged/insisted on running
>> the
>> numbers first before going forward with outboard tank idea. Obviously as
>> everyone on this list knows that Van's doesn't want to give any
>> engineering info
>> on this.
>>
>> I need the material information to model the wing in the analysis that
>> I'm doing
>> with the help of two of my colleagues who are familiar with modeling and
>> simulation. This is to add an extra tank (outboard tank...same size as
>> original
>> inboard tank) and make sure that the structure can hold the extra load on
>> the
>> wing. FEM analysis is almost complete (3-4 months in the making) and want
>> to
>> make sure that the material is the right type of material.
>>
>>
>> The tool we are using is Auto Desk Inventor. We are not able to model the
>> skin
>> correctly in this tool, but the take away from this analysis is the trend
>> (as we
>> can't get exact numbers unless we model each and every part in the wing
>> including the rivets). By that I mean the Safety Factor trend (increase
>> or
>> decrease...increase is good) with and without beefing up (different
>> options of
>> beefing up) the spar structure. The area in spot light is the gap (1 ft
>> gap)
>> between the two tanks (thanks to Neil who passed the conern to me
>> concentrate on
>> this area as expressed by Van's itself) where the loads are concentrated
>> because
>> the two tanks themselves add strength to the structure (spar) where they
>> are
>> located. With the modeled wing, the safety factor will tell as to at what
>> "g"
>> the structure with break. My goal is to keep this "g" above 150% of 3.8
>> which
>> is what a utility category aircraft is designed for in general. So far,
>> the
>> results are encouraging. Van's says that as long as we can keep the "g"
>> below
>> 3.8, we probably do not need to worry about beefing up the structure with
>> outboard tank installed...but I can't guarantee that I'll be below 3.8 in
>> severe
>> turbulence.
>>
>> I want to mention that this sort of adventure (building the airplane for
>> this
>> mission and flying it) is not for the faint-hearted or the nay-sayers.
>> For an
>> adventure like this, I need to push the envelope a bit, but it should be
>> a
>> calculated risk and not a blind one. My plan is to have 225 gallons of
>> fuel for
>> couple of long legs (eg: California to Hawaii)...yes, I'll be over the
>> gross wt
>> by aournd 15%-20% at the start of these legs. Fuel management is another
>> challenge and I have a locked-in plan for it (thanks to Detlef Heun's
>> design
>> which is a part of my fuel management design...he is in the middle of his
>> Flight
>> Around the World adventure on his RV-7 with his wife Liliana).
>>
>> Any help with constructive criticism to get me through this build process
>> from
>> you all is very much appreciated. So far, I have completed the empennage
>> (not
>> the attach portion though, since I don't have room in my garage),
>> Ailerons,
>> Flaps, 3/4th of 2 fuel tanks (yet to seal them). Copied rudder trim from
>> Tim
>> Olson's website. Passed 500 hrs (total time) mark...and in 3 years from
>> now, my
>> plane should fly. Once the analysis is done, I'll upload all the details
>> on my
>> web page (not updated in a long time). Please let me know if anyone has a
>> question for me. Thanks.
>>
>>
>> vj
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Step
6061-T6.
--------
Wayne Gillispie, A&P 5/93, PPC 10/08
Bldr# 40983 SB
Fuselage 9/21/10- working on Sec 38 Rudder pedals/interior painting.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326012#326012
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Step
I talked to a guy at Sun n Fun who had double tanks on his RV-10. If I remeber
correctly it was John Nys. You may want to get in touch with him.
Lenny
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=326014#326014
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
Vijay,
For this type of mission, IMHO, you are probably better of building a
large fuselage tank rather than messing with the wing tanks or
structure. In 2004 I followed the exploits of an "Earthrounder" in
his Cessna 210. It was a standard 210 wtih a large fuselage mounted
fuel tank and custom pumping system.
http://www.N30EW.com/Moreplanepics.htm
Fuselage tanks add less localized stress and are easier to engineer
than adding/modyfing the wing tanks/structure.
I have added some extra plumbing in my aircraft just in case I wanted
some "additional range" I can add a fuselage mounted tank which can
later be removed.
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/9XOther/RV10FuelPlumb.pdf
--
William
N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Vijay Pisini <vijaypisini@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> It is not appropriate if I do not mention as to why I need it. So here it
> goes...the mission is Around The World in RV-10. I shared this info with fellow
> RV-10 builders at OSH'10 Camp Scholler. Neil Colliver gave good piece of
> information (through email, though he suggested not to make a major mod such
as
> this for various reasons) and Bob Condrey encouraged/insisted on running the
> numbers first before going forward with outboard tank idea. Obviously as
> everyone on this list knows that Van's doesn't want to give any engineering info
> on this.
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
I would agree.
You just cannot guarantee the stresses you will encounter as the wx cannot be guaranteed.
It's not just landing where you can get negative G. Would you purchase
a plane not knowing if it had been overstressed?
I agree with William - add a fuselage ferry tank. An easy mod. Ties down & restraint
is also easy. Gravity fed fuel. Easy to remove. On long trips easy and simple
= safe.
I had long discussions with Vans. They did not say it would not work, but gave
me sufficient reasons not to do it that way if there was any other way it could
be done.
Neil
On 9/01/2011, at 8:05 AM, William Curtis wrote:
>
> Vijay,
>
> For this type of mission, IMHO, you are probably better of building a
> large fuselage tank rather than messing with the wing tanks or
> structure. In 2004 I followed the exploits of an "Earthrounder" in
> his Cessna 210. It was a standard 210 wtih a large fuselage mounted
> fuel tank and custom pumping system.
>
> http://www.N30EW.com/Moreplanepics.htm
>
> Fuselage tanks add less localized stress and are easier to engineer
> than adding/modyfing the wing tanks/structure.
>
> I have added some extra plumbing in my aircraft just in case I wanted
> some "additional range" I can add a fuselage mounted tank which can
> later be removed.
>
> http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/9XOther/RV10FuelPlumb.pdf
>
> --
> William
> N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Vijay Pisini <vijaypisini@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> It is not appropriate if I do not mention as to why I need it. So here it
>> goes...the mission is Around The World in RV-10. I shared this info with fellow
>> RV-10 builders at OSH'10 Camp Scholler. Neil Colliver gave good piece of
>> information (through email, though he suggested not to make a major mod such
as
>> this for various reasons) and Bob Condrey encouraged/insisted on running the
>> numbers first before going forward with outboard tank idea. Obviously as
>> everyone on this list knows that Van's doesn't want to give any engineering
info
>> on this.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
Also, I think in was in an RVator article a while back, where I
believe Ken Krueger alluded (reluctantly) that if you had to add
extra fuel capacity to an RV, add temporary fuselage tanks rather
that additional fuel in the wings. This was because additional mass
in the wings can add unpredictable negative spin characteristics to
the aircraft.
--
William
N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Neil & Sarah Colliver <ncol@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
> I would agree.
>
> You just cannot guarantee the stresses you will encounter as the wx cannot be
guaranteed. It's not just landing where you can get negative G. Would you purchase
a plane not knowing if it had been overstressed?
>
> I agree with William - add a fuselage ferry tank. An easy mod. Ties down & restraint
is also easy. Gravity fed fuel. Easy to remove. On long trips easy and
simple = safe.
>
> I had long discussions with Vans. They did not say it would not work, but gave
me sufficient reasons not to do it that way if there was any other way it could
be done.
>
> Neil
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
I would disagree on several points relative to the fuselage tank vs wing
tank. But I'm not an engineer so much skepticism is in order.
Seems the key question is whether this is 1-off sort of ferry mission or
is this a special built, long leg machine. A fuselage tank may be in
order for a 1-off mission followed by normal ops as a normal '10. A
wing tank might make more sense if the a/c is optimized for long legs
and possibly more than a single ferry type flight. Round the world can
be thought of as either I guess, so... what's next?
Anyway, a well designed set of wing tanks can actually allow the wing to
carry a heavier total load without a bigger spar or wing structure. As
I understand it, in turbulence, the wing will fail at the point where
the bending stress exceeds the strength of the spar. If the wings are
weightless and all the weight is in the fuselage (analogous to a big
fuse tank and no wing tanks), that point will be close to the junction
of the wing and fuselage. But the total load required to break the
spar will generally be much less than if the weight were spread out
along the entire span of the wing. Such a wing loading situation will
allow you to sustain much higher gust loads before wing failure. The
wing can be effectively made stronger by spreading the total load out
along the span. I know that's how it works in gliders and the effects
of this kind of span loading on the ride is quite noticeable when ridge
running at redline.
A large fuselage tank would expose you to lower gust limits, a worse
ride in turbulence, and just less capability. A span loaded wing is
the optimal way to go for load carrying, handling gust loads, and
probably for a smoother ride.
But I'm sure there are a lot of other factors that I'm not accounting for.
On a different front, engineering a good wing tank system seems like
quite a challenge. One approach that Maule uses for their long rang
tank option (and I'm sure many other a/c do too) may have some value in
terms of simplying the plumbing. That is, they use small transfer pumps
to move fuel to the main tank. I don't think they even guage the tip
tanks. I think the pumps actually run slower than normal fuel
consumption so to use them you turn them on some time after takeoff and
let them dump into the mains for some time. The original main tank
guaging and plumbing works as-is. But it's just one approach and it is
a high wing.
Bill "thinking how great it is to have a challenging goal" Watson
On 1/8/2011 2:40 PM, Neil & Sarah Colliver wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Neil& Sarah Colliver<ncol@xtra.co.nz>
>
> I would agree.
>
> You just cannot guarantee the stresses you will encounter as the wx cannot be
guaranteed. It's not just landing where you can get negative G. Would you purchase
a plane not knowing if it had been overstressed?
>
> I agree with William - add a fuselage ferry tank. An easy mod. Ties down& restraint
is also easy. Gravity fed fuel. Easy to remove. On long trips easy and
simple = safe.
>
> I had long discussions with Vans. They did not say it would not work, but gave
me sufficient reasons not to do it that way if there was any other way it could
be done.
>
> Neil
>
> On 9/01/2011, at 8:05 AM, William Curtis wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: William Curtis<wcurtis@nerv10.com>
>>
>> Vijay,
>>
>> For this type of mission, IMHO, you are probably better of building a
>> large fuselage tank rather than messing with the wing tanks or
>> structure. In 2004 I followed the exploits of an "Earthrounder" in
>> his Cessna 210. It was a standard 210 wtih a large fuselage mounted
>> fuel tank and custom pumping system.
>>
>> http://www.N30EW.com/Moreplanepics.htm
>>
>> Fuselage tanks add less localized stress and are easier to engineer
>> than adding/modyfing the wing tanks/structure.
>>
>> I have added some extra plumbing in my aircraft just in case I wanted
>> some "additional range" I can add a fuselage mounted tank which can
>> later be removed.
>>
>> http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/9XOther/RV10FuelPlumb.pdf
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
DLM,
Thanks for the reply. The restriction that I'll get at the time of acceptance
is something along the lines of "landing with outboard tank fuel is prohibited
except in emergency in which case appropriate inspection must be carried out
before next flight".
So...I'm interested in the issues I might face while in flight. CG problems
will be greatly reduced with extra 60 gallons (360 lb) in both outboard tanks
compared to 225-60=165 gal in ferry tank inside the plane. Another problem that
I see with ferry tank fuel is that when there is a wind gust, the joint at
fuselage and wing will be stressed the most. I can save some space in the
cockpit with outboard tanks option.
vj
----- Original Message ----- From: "DLM" <dlm34077@q.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb,
Stepped bar, Doubler)
>
> I talked extensively with Kruger about this. 120 gallon in the wings only
>presents a problem on an overweight landing due to the possibility of negative
>load on the spar at touchdown. The fuel in flight lifts itself and imposes less
>positive bending moment on the spar. All the fuel is on the CG. we discussed two
>additional tanks outboard of the main tanks and separate from the mains so that
>for most operations the outboards would be empty and would only be used so that
>the first 60 would be transferred to the mains before landing. Obviously
>emergency considerations must be addressed such as overweight landing due to
>other reasons. failed transfer pumps, fuel vents etc. The TX guys that were
>doing this were building for Australian use (to the outback, no fuel) and one
in
>FL had designs on FL to Costa Rica. We have considered a change to a flying
>aircraft but before we do, it will get a through look by engineer friends at the
>Big Aircraft Company.
>
>
Message 14
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|
As winter has been well established this year already, I'm once again in the
mood for an engine heater. I had planned on ordering the one from Van's
when I thought to do a Google search. Here's something that came up and I'm
struggling for a reason not to go for it:
http://www.amazon.com/Kats-24150-Watt-Universal-Heater/dp/B000I8TQD6/ref=pd_
sim_auto_2
It appears to be thermostatically controlled and attaches to the oil sump
like the $178 version but at only $22. Any points to consider would be
appreciated.
Marcus
40286
Message 15
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| Subject: | Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
This is a most valuable thread for RV-10 builders and certainly
interesting. First, I don't believe either Ken Krueger (not to be
confused with Ken Scott) will give any builder written guidance or state
such a modification as "VANS acceptable". Some will then pipe up, "This
is why we are building Experimental Kit Approved". Is this an initial
construction feature (before Airworthiness Authorization) during the
build or is this a Mod to an approved FAA kit that has flown? Extended
Range Tanks whether Temporary (removable) or permanent structural
modification are issues beyond all but a few of VANS clients. Good Luck
Kelly with the guy from the Big Company. Most know on this list I love
modifications during initial build.
If the tanks seen at SNF were indeed John Nys, then Jesse and a few
others on this list might just remember our review of his products a few
years back at OSH. Get his DER's approval so it is U.S. of A, FAA
compliant. Oh yeh, since it is not Certificated, get Joe Norris of the
EAA to give their blessing. If a builder in another country tackles the
task get your country's aviation authority approval. Consider Spin
Testing and Wing Loading Tests as well. Here on this side of the pond,
FAA regulations were altered at the behest of the DEA (Drug Enforcement
Agency) to document or invalidate approved airworthiness certificates
when someone tries to modify the mission by extending the fuel supply.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for the Colliver's effort and for others to
take this model on a globe trotting tour. I also want them to come back
and share the journey with us without a Dan Lloyd type moment. Tank
placement, fuel flow, structural considerations and metallurgy go far
beyond a takeoff and landing under normal "Utility" considerations. 3.8
g's and a 1.5x safety factor might be placing the test pilot in
unintended outcomes. The fact that this unintended load is over the
arbitrary CG point is not as relevant and it sounds.
I actually trained pilots back decades ago to make the Round the World
Balloon Crossing a reality. One effort toward that dream fell short
when the pilot (Steve Fossett) ran into a Thunderstorm in the Southern
Hemisphere. By the way he did finally make it but lost his life years
later on a routine flight out here on the west coast. Another friend
and a copilot were lost in a thunderstorm over the Med just a few months
ago in the Gordon Bennett reenactment. That was Ben Abruzzo's son
Richard. Ben was the first to cross the Atlantic in the Double Eagle II
and then died when his twin engine aircraft ran out of gas months later.
Maxie Anderson was another from the Double Eagle II flight at went west
after a flight with Don Ida over Germany. Mother Nature awaits the
daring in all of us. Plan for arriving wiser and more humble.
High wing loading during CAT (clear air turbulence) or control surface
flutter at higher TAS (a passionate topic for K. Scott) could bring
additional excitement to the pursuit.
The wingspar in the RV-10 (a design extended from an earlier smaller
VANS aircraft), its web and its extension do not lend themselves to such
a needed successful conclusion. Just because someone can do it, has
done it, and has not YET had a problem doe not assure that you could
ever get it approved following existing regulations and proper
airworthiness channels. Let us know if it is successful. Our prayers
and aspirations will be with you.
Good Luck, land safely with all passengers aboard.
John Cox
________________________________
Also, I think in was in an RVator article a while back, where I
believe Ken Krueger alluded (reluctantly) that "if you had to add
extra fuel capacity" to an RV, add temporary fuselage tanks rather
that additional fuel in the wings. This was because additional mass
in the wings can add unpredictable negative spin characteristics to
the aircraft.
--
William
N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Neil & Sarah Colliver <ncol@xtra.co.nz>
wrote:
<ncol@xtra.co.nz>
>
> I would agree.
>
> You just cannot guarantee the stresses you will encounter as the wx
cannot be guaranteed. It's not just landing where you can get negative
G. Would you purchase a plane not knowing if it had been overstressed?
>
> I agree with William - add a fuselage ferry tank. An easy mod. Ties
down & restraint is also easy. Gravity fed fuel. Easy to remove. On long
trips easy and simple = safe.
>
> I had long discussions with Vans. They did not say it would not work,
but gave me sufficient reasons not to do it that way if there was any
other way it could be done.
>
> Neil
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
Jack,
Thanks for the reply and the details.
Wayne Gillispie (rv10flyer) replied saying that it is 6061-T6. I know for most
of the aircraft structure they use the generic 6061-T6. But for an all
important structure like the wing spar, I'm wondering if it is something little
more stronger material.
I'll need to figure this out for sure and will post it to the list when I can
confirm something.
vj
----- Original Message ----
From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sat, January 8, 2011 7:22:21 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb,
Stepped bar, Doubler)
VJ,
Congratulations on such a plan! I don't expect you to have much trouble
with the stresses and loadings.
I would be very surprised if the spar material is not 2024-T3, or 2024-T351
for the thick web and the stepped bar. That is pretty much the standard
structural material that the entire airplane is made of. At room
temperatures, the tensile strength is 68,000 psi and the yield strength is
47,000 psi for the T351 parts. T3 is used for sheet and has slightly higher
properties (70,000 psi ultimate, 50,000 psi yield).
However, I don't know how to verify this since the anodizing process removes
the mill markings from the material. Van's gets most of their aluminum from
Kaiser Aluminum. Perhaps they can verify the alloy and grade used.
If you can verify the material and condition, please post it to the List.
Jack Phillips, PE
#40610 wings
Raleigh, NC
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
William,
Thanks for the reply. I just sent in a reply in response to DLM's email where I
cited the CG problems with all additional fuel in ferry tanks in the cockpit.
Yes, for the past 1.5 years I've been reading all of the material available on
"earthrounders.net" site. Read 5 books by earthrounders so far including Jon
Johanson's book, Carol-Anne Garrett's two books (I met her as well).
While going overweight in couple of legs, wind gust will pose a serious stress
concentration at the fuselage and wing joint in ferry tank option compared to
outboard tank option.
My mission most likely will not be one-off round the world trip. I'll be using
long range tanks apart from that trip. According to my fuel management design,
I'll have 4 fuel selector valves in the cockpit. I'll share this information in
another email or probably I'll update my website with all this info with
diagrams etc.
vj
----- Original Message ----
From: William Curtis <wcurtis@nerv10.com>
Sent: Sat, January 8, 2011 1:05:02 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb,
Stepped bar, Doubler)
Vijay,
For this type of mission, IMHO, you are probably better of building a
large fuselage tank rather than messing with the wing tanks or
structure. In 2004 I followed the exploits of an "Earthrounder" in
his Cessna 210. It was a standard 210 wtih a large fuselage mounted
fuel tank and custom pumping system.
http://www.N30EW.com/Moreplanepics.htm
Fuselage tanks add less localized stress and are easier to engineer
than adding/modyfing the wing tanks/structure.
I have added some extra plumbing in my aircraft just in case I wanted
some "additional range" I can add a fuselage mounted tank which can
later be removed.
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/9XOther/RV10FuelPlumb.pdf
--
William
N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Vijay Pisini <vijaypisini@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> It is not appropriate if I do not mention as to why I need it. So here it
> goes...the mission is Around The World in RV-10. I shared this info with
>fellow
> RV-10 builders at OSH'10 Camp Scholler. Neil Colliver gave good piece of
> information (through email, though he suggested not to make a major mod such
as
> this for various reasons) and Bob Condrey encouraged/insisted on running the
> numbers first before going forward with outboard tank idea. Obviously as
> everyone on this list knows that Van's doesn't want to give any engineering
>info
> on this.
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
Keep in mind that several certified aircraft have gross wt increases
approved with tip tanks of around 20 gal each tip, and Cessna 310 has
huge tip tanks as its main fuel source. The Bonanza generally gets
around 200lb gw increase with tip tanks. Also keep in mind that the two
best range extending techniques are to reduce speed and power to about
110% of best L/D, say around 130 kts IAS, and to run as lean of peak as
the engine will tolerate at the power delivering that airspeed, probably
around 40-45% power. The speed will be pretty reasonable if you are
doing that IAS up in the low to mid-teens.
On 1/8/2011 3:05 PM, John Cox wrote:
> This is a most valuable thread for RV-10 builders and certainly
> interesting. First, I don't believe either Ken Krueger (not to be
> confused with Ken Scott) will give any builder written guidance or
> state such a modification as "VANS acceptable". Some will then pipe
> up, "This is why we are building Experimental Kit Approved". Is this
> an initial construction feature (before Airworthiness Authorization)
> during the build or is this a Mod to an approved FAA kit that has
> flown? Extended Range Tanks whether Temporary (removable) or permanent
> structural modification are issues beyond all but a few of VANS
> clients. Good Luck Kelly with the guy from the Big Company. Most know
> on this list I love modifications during initial build.
> If the tanks seen at SNF were indeed John Nys, then Jesse and a few
> others on this list might just remember our review of his products a
> few years back at OSH. Get his DER's approval so it is U.S. of A, FAA
> compliant. Oh yeh, since it is not Certificated, get Joe Norris of the
> EAA to give their blessing. If a builder in another country tackles
> the task get your country's aviation authority approval. Consider Spin
> Testing and Wing Loading Tests as well. Here on this side of the pond,
> FAA regulations were altered at the behest of the DEA (Drug
> Enforcement Agency) to document or invalidate approved airworthiness
> certificates when someone tries to modify the mission by extending the
> fuel supply. Don't get me wrong, I am all for the Colliver's effort
> and for others to take this model on a globe trotting tour. I also
> want them to come back and share the journey with us without a Dan
> Lloyd type moment. Tank placement, fuel flow, structural
> considerations and metallurgy go far beyond a takeoff and landing
> under normal "Utility" considerations. 3.8 g's and a 1.5x safety
> factor might be placing the test pilot in unintended outcomes. The
> fact that this unintended load is over the arbitrary CG point is not
> as relevant and it sounds.
> I actually trained pilots back decades ago to make the Round the World
> Balloon Crossing a reality. One effort toward that dream fell short
> when the pilot (Steve Fossett) ran into a Thunderstorm in the Southern
> Hemisphere. By the way he did finally make it but lost his life years
> later on a routine flight out here on the west coast. Another friend
> and a copilot were lost in a thunderstorm over the Med just a few
> months ago in the Gordon Bennett reenactment. That was Ben Abruzzo's
> son Richard. Ben was the first to cross the Atlantic in the Double
> Eagle II and then died when his twin engine aircraft ran out of gas
> months later. Maxie Anderson was another from the Double Eagle II
> flight at went west after a flight with Don Ida over Germany. Mother
> Nature awaits the daring in all of us. Plan for arriving wiser and
> more humble.
> High wing loading during CAT (clear air turbulence) or control surface
> flutter at higher TAS (a passionate topic for K. Scott) could bring
> additional excitement to the pursuit.
> The wingspar in the RV-10 (a design extended from an earlier smaller
> VANS aircraft), its web and its extension do not lend themselves to
> such a needed successful conclusion. Just because someone can do it,
> has done it, and has not YET had a problem doe not assure that you
> could ever get it approved following existing regulations and proper
> airworthiness channels. Let us know if it is successful. Our prayers
> and aspirations will be with you.
> Good Luck, land safely with all passengers aboard.
> John Cox
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Also, I think in was in an RVator article a while back, where I
> believe Ken Krueger alluded (reluctantly) that if you had to add
> extra fuel capacity to an RV, add temporary fuselage tanks rather
> that additional fuel in the wings. This was because additional mass
> in the wings can add unpredictable negative spin characteristics to
> the aircraft.
>
> --
> William
> N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
>
> On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Neil & Sarah Colliver
> <ncol@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> >
> > I would agree.
> >
> > You just cannot guarantee the stresses you will encounter as the wx
> cannot be guaranteed. It's not just landing where you can get negative
> G. Would you purchase a plane not knowing if it had been overstressed?
> >
> > I agree with William - add a fuselage ferry tank. An easy mod. Ties
> down & restraint is also easy. Gravity fed fuel. Easy to remove. On
> long trips easy and simple = safe.
> >
> > I had long discussions with Vans. They did not say it would not
> work, but gave me sufficient reasons not to do it that way if there
> was any other way it could be done.
> >
> > p; - The RV10-List Email Forum
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic-->
> http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
> p; - List Contribution bsp; -Matt Dralle, List
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c================
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
let there be no mistake. Vans did not approve extended range tanks. I
discussed the areas of concern with an engineer there. And yes the big
airplane conpany has a lot of engineers with a lot of expertise. A step of
this nature truly is experimental and should be approached with a lot of
caution. That said a lot of Pipers and Cessnas load ferry tanks and go east
and west over the pond. Try
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/nwpilot's_tranatlantic_flight.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vijay Pisini" <vijaypisini@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Need the type of material for front wing spar
(Sparweb, Stepped bar, Doubler)
>
> DLM,
>
> Thanks for the reply. The restriction that I'll get at the time of
> acceptance
> is something along the lines of "landing with outboard tank fuel is
> prohibited
> except in emergency in which case appropriate inspection must be carried
> out
> before next flight".
>
> So...I'm interested in the issues I might face while in flight. CG
> problems
> will be greatly reduced with extra 60 gallons (360 lb) in both outboard
> tanks
> compared to 225-60=165 gal in ferry tank inside the plane. Another problem
> that
> I see with ferry tank fuel is that when there is a wind gust, the joint at
> fuselage and wing will be stressed the most. I can save some space in the
> cockpit with outboard tanks option.
>
>
> vj
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "DLM" <dlm34077@q.com>
> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:54 AM
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Need the type of material for front wing spar
> (Sparweb,
> Stepped bar, Doubler)
>
>
>>
>> I talked extensively with Kruger about this. 120 gallon in the wings only
>>presents a problem on an overweight landing due to the possibility of
>>negative
>>load on the spar at touchdown. The fuel in flight lifts itself and imposes
>>less
>>positive bending moment on the spar. All the fuel is on the CG. we
>>discussed two
>>additional tanks outboard of the main tanks and separate from the mains so
>>that
>>for most operations the outboards would be empty and would only be used so
>>that
>>the first 60 would be transferred to the mains before landing. Obviously
>>emergency considerations must be addressed such as overweight landing due
>>to
>>other reasons. failed transfer pumps, fuel vents etc. The TX guys that
>>were
>>doing this were building for Australian use (to the outback, no fuel) and
>>one in
>>FL had designs on FL to Costa Rica. We have considered a change to a
>>flying
>>aircraft but before we do, it will get a through look by engineer friends
>>at the
>>Big Aircraft Company.
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
Neil,
Thanks for the reply and opinion. I'm not too much worried about someone buying
my plane sometime later (if at all). The risks of concentrated stresses are
there in both the options (options being all additional fuel in ferry tanks in
the cockpit versus some fuel in the outboard tanks). Unexpected wind gust is a
serious issue to me while being overweight with cockpit ferry tank fuel. If I
engineer the outboard tank correctly, that will be the way to go in my opinion.
I have agood fuel flow management design with (60 original + 60 outboard + 20
right seat ferry tank + 85 rear seat ferry tank).
Also, I'm not too much worried about landing the plane with outboard tank fuel
because that will only be in emergency only which I can deal with once I'm
safely on ground.
Modification to fit the outboard tanks in my opinion is not an issue though it
is not all that easy...and I'm prepared for it. There are around 20 RV-X's with
outboard tanks. Some are non removable tanks and some are removable tanks.
I'll be making them as removable (for maintenance when needed) tanks.
vj
----- Original Message ----
From: Neil & Sarah Colliver <ncol@xtra.co.nz>
Sent: Sat, January 8, 2011 1:40:47 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb,
Stepped bar, Doubler)
I would agree.
You just cannot guarantee the stresses you will encounter as the wx cannot be
guaranteed. It's not just landing where you can get negative G. Would you
purchase a plane not knowing if it had been overstressed?
I agree with William - add a fuselage ferry tank. An easy mod. Ties down &
restraint is also easy. Gravity fed fuel. Easy to remove. On long trips easy and
simple = safe.
I had long discussions with Vans. They did not say it would not work, but gave
me sufficient reasons not to do it that way if there was any other way it could
be done.
Neil
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Engine heater |
I don't think you will find a 4"x5" spot on your sump. I had a hard time fitting
on the 2 Reiff pads and they were like 1.5"x3 or so each.. The Reiff also
has the cylinder bands, which is really nice...
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 8, 2011, at 5:02 PM, "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> As winter has been well established this year already, I'm once again in the
> mood for an engine heater. I had planned on ordering the one from Van's
> when I thought to do a Google search. Here's something that came up and I'm
> struggling for a reason not to go for it:
> http://www.amazon.com/Kats-24150-Watt-Universal-Heater/dp/B000I8TQD6/ref=pd_
> sim_auto_2
>
> It appears to be thermostatically controlled and attaches to the oil sump
> like the $178 version but at only $22. Any points to consider would be
> appreciated.
>
> Marcus
> 40286
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
Bill,
Thanks for the input. Yes, this will most likely willNOT be a one-off round
the world trip. There will be more trips where I'll be using the long range
tanks and in those cases outboard wing tanks are best.
I replied to some of the mails detailing as to why I prefer some fuel in the
outboard wing tanks versus all of the fuel in ferry tanks at the back.
Wing tank positives:
Less CG problems
Less wing gust problems (stress concentration on wing and fuselage joint) on
overweight legs
Can use them for more of the long range trips
More space inside the plane
Ferry tank positives:
Less modification issues
Not changing the original kit design (for resale problems)...hence less worries
as some put it
Less detrimental effect when it gets into a spin
My fuel management design in words:
4 fuel valve selectors (left, original center, right and aft). Left and Right
valves (like the valve in Piper Arrow) are going to be similar to each other
with the pointer either on outboard tank or on inboard tank depending on the
need. Outboard tank fuel flow plumbing will be similar (in concept) to original
inboard tank up until the side valves (left, right). Original center fuel valve
will have the options as left, right and off. The aft fuel valve will will have
selections as tank1 and tank2 (for right seat and rear seat tanks). I intend to
keep all the fuel selectors permanently in the plane.
Ferry tank fuel will be drained (by gravity and also there will be a pump for
each tank...I'll be using Turtlepac tanks as ferry tanks) into the left main
tank (additional plumbing will be done for this)...no guage for the ferry fuel
tanks. There will be guages (fuel senders) for outboard tanks. I will have to
deal with engine coughing only twice for the two outboard tanks when I run them
dry. That problem will not be there for ferry tanks as the fuel drains into the
left main tank. After take off on left inboard tank, I'll be using the outboard
tanks first for 5-6 hrs of cruise flight by pointing the left and right valves
to outboard tanks and managing the original center valve as usual (left,
right). Once the outboard tanks are used up, I'll use both the ferry tanks
through the left inboard tank. For about 7-8 hrs, I just have to open and close
the ferry tanks until they are drained off completely. After this, I'll be on
the left and right inboard tanks with regular fuel selection until landing.
I decided against draining the outboard fuel tanks into the corresponding
inboard fuel tanks because I'll have to deal with the fuel pump and I don't want
to risk the failure of the fuel pump in this option. I want the plumbing to be
simple in concept as well. This (more fuel valves) was done by couple of people
already and it is simple in operation and is proven. I got to be careful while
draining the fuel from ferry tanks into the left inboard tank...not to overfill
the left inboard tank.
I'm prepared for the extra work...!
Vijay
----- Original Message ----
From: Bill Watson Mauledriver@nc.rr.com
Sent: Sat, January 8, 2011 3:04:47 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb,
Stepped bar, Doubler)
I would disagree on several points relative to the fuselage tank vs wing tank.
But I'm not an engineer so much skepticism is in order.
Seems the key question is whether this is 1-off sort of ferry mission or is this
a special built, long leg machine. A fuselage tank may be in order for a 1-off
mission followed by normal ops as a normal '10. A wing tank might make more
sense if the a/c is optimized for long legs and possibly more than a single
ferry type flight. Round the world can be thought of as either I guess, so...
what's next?
Anyway, a well designed set of wing tanks can actually allow the wing to carry
a
heavier total load without a bigger spar or wing structure. As I understand it,
in turbulence, the wing will fail at the point where the bending stress exceeds
the strength of the spar. If the wings are weightless and all the weight is in
the fuselage (analogous to a big fuse tank and no wing tanks), that point will
be close to the junction of the wing and fuselage. But the total load required
to break the spar will generally be much less than if the weight were spread
out along the entire span of the wing. Such a wing loading situation will allow
you to sustain much higher gust loads before wing failure. The wing can be
effectively made stronger by spreading the total load out along the span. I
know that's how it works in gliders and the effects of this kind of span
loading on the ride is quite noticeable when ridge running at redline.
A large fuselage tank would expose you to lower gust limits, a worse ride in
turbulence, and just less capability. A span loaded wing is the optimal way to
go for load carrying, handling gust loads, and probably for a smoother ride.
But I'm sure there are a lot of other factors that I'm not accounting for.
On a different front, engineering a good wing tank system seems like quite a
challenge. One approach that Maule uses for their long rang tank option (and
I'm sure many other a/c do too) may have some value in terms of simplying the
plumbing. That is, they use small transfer pumps to move fuel to the main
tank. I don't think they even guage the tip tanks. I think the pumps actually
run slower than normal fuel consumption so to use them you turn them on some
time after takeoff and let them dump into the mains for some time. The original
main tank guaging and plumbing works as-is. But it's just one approach and it
is a high wing.
Bill "thinking how great it is to have a challenging goal" Watson
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
Vijay,
> Bill,
>
> ...
>
> Ferry tank positives:
> Less detrimental effect when it gets into a spin
I always find that interesting at a time when we don't even train for
spin recovery, just avoidance. Obviously there's no plan to spin it.
> I'm prepared for the extra work...!
>
Indeed it seems you are. Exciting project! Maybe I missed it but you
say you have a web site? or will? Will be following in any case.
Bill
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Engine heater |
I'm using the Reiff Preheater:
http://www.reiffpreheat.com/
It's been very nice to have over the years. This winter I hope to
add the oil cooler heater also. I have cylinder band heaters
for each cylinder, and a sump heater right now. Generally, even
if it's below zero outside, my cylinders will be in the high
60's, and the warmer it is outside the warmer the engine will
be. Most of the time when I fly in the winter, the temps are
between the 70's and 90F. I actually hit 100F (which is where
I normally warm up to before takeoff) faster in the fall/winter/
spring, than I do in the summer, because of the preheat.
With the cowl plugs from Fightline, the whole engine generally
stays pretty warm. The oil cooler out on the firewall doesn't
probably get as warm, so that's why I want to add a heater
for that. See this:
http://www.reiffpreheat.com/Oil%20cooler%20heater.htm
I know you can heat just a sump, or heat with a lightbulb
under the cowl, but those I view as more of an occasional
workaround. If you really want to get it warmed up and ensure
that the engine gets pumping lube right away, you want to heat
the whole engine and get all the oil flowing well.
I've used Tanis brand heaters on my previous plane. Those worked
well too. I do like the cylinder band heaters from Reiff though.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 1/8/2011 4:02 PM, Marcus Cooper wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Marcus Cooper"<coop85@verizon.net>
>
> As winter has been well established this year already, I'm once again in the
> mood for an engine heater. I had planned on ordering the one from Van's
> when I thought to do a Google search. Here's something that came up and I'm
> struggling for a reason not to go for it:
> http://www.amazon.com/Kats-24150-Watt-Universal-Heater/dp/B000I8TQD6/ref=pd_
> sim_auto_2
>
> It appears to be thermostatically controlled and attaches to the oil sump
> like the $178 version but at only $22. Any points to consider would be
> appreciated.
>
> Marcus
> 40286
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
Vijay,
Remember the existing wing structure (as with most non fighter wing
designs) is designed to carry up to gross weight primarily in FUSELAGE
load, not load out in the wing. This is why the wing structure is
massive at the root and gets thinner as it goes outboard. All things
being equal, you would need to beef up the outboard wing structure to
carry to SAME amount of additional fuel in the wings as you would in
the fuselage. Aircraft designed from the ground up with tip tanks
take this into consideration. Aircraft that get gross weight increase
with additional tip tanks also include additional wing area.
My point is, to carry 500 pounds of fuel in the rear seat positions
requires NO modifications as this is no different that carrying two
large rear seat passengers. Carrying an extra 500 pounds in the wings
however is definitely different than what the structure was designed
forwhich is why you are seeking to modify it. With fuselage tanks,
no wing modifications are required, with wing tanks you are definitely
putting more load in places not designed for it with the standard
wings.
Then you have to ask yourself, If Im not using the rear seats for
fuel in these extended range trips, what do I use that space for?
Would I really want to carry passengers or cargo in the fuselage with
the additional fuel out in the wing? How much over gross do I want to
go?
If you cant use the fuselage space for anything else;
If the wing tanks require re-engineering of the wing while fuselage
tanks do not; With these points the solution for some is obvious.
Lastly, I think the longest (time) Ive flown in a piston single was 5
hours 20 minutes. I was operating at about 145 kts at about 8.5
gal/hour and landed with about 12 gallons remaining from a 60 gallon
capacity. Im not sure if you have flown long legs in piston singles
but unless you were doing it for a particular purpose (like an
Earthrounder) after doing it a few times, you will NOT make a regular
habit of it. You will want to land and take a break even if you do
not need fuel and even if you have the best autopilot in the world.
--
William
N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, |
Stepped bar, Doubler)
Hi VJ
whoa!
That makes 225 gallons x 6lbs / gal = 1350lbs fuel.
Add in the pilot, probably oxygen, a proper life raft, some tools, a couple of
spares, some oil, a first aid kit, HF radio, an immersion suit for N Atlantic,
and may be a change of cloths, maps, computer, water for in flight, water for
emergency ditching, food likewise.
Unless you fill the remainder of the aircraft with hydrogen / helium, you are going
to be way way weigh over gross.
And there is no way you are ever going to need that much fuel if you run LOP. You
only need 2200nm range + reserve. Pick the weather.
Please do as William & Vans suggested - a large ferry tank in co-pilot seat / rear
seats. Do the C of G calcs properly.
Neil
On 9/01/2011, at 11:35 AM, Vijay Pisini wrote:
>
> Neil,
>
> Thanks for the reply and opinion. I'm not too much worried about someone buying
> my plane sometime later (if at all). The risks of concentrated stresses are
> there in both the options (options being all additional fuel in ferry tanks in
> the cockpit versus some fuel in the outboard tanks). Unexpected wind gust is
a
> serious issue to me while being overweight with cockpit ferry tank fuel. If
I
> engineer the outboard tank correctly, that will be the way to go in my opinion.
> I have a good fuel flow management design with (60 original + 60 outboard + 20
> right seat ferry tank + 85 rear seat ferry tank).
>
> Also, I'm not too much worried about landing the plane with outboard tank fuel
> because that will only be in emergency only which I can deal with once I'm
> safely on ground.
>
> Modification to fit the outboard tanks in my opinion is not an issue though it
> is not all that easy...and I'm prepared for it. There are around 20 RV-X's with
> outboard tanks. Some are non removable tanks and some are removable tanks.
> I'll be making them as removable (for maintenance when needed) tanks.
>
>
> vj
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Neil & Sarah Colliver <ncol@xtra.co.nz>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sat, January 8, 2011 1:40:47 PM
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb,
> Stepped bar, Doubler)
>
>
> I would agree.
>
> You just cannot guarantee the stresses you will encounter as the wx cannot be
> guaranteed. It's not just landing where you can get negative G. Would you
> purchase a plane not knowing if it had been overstressed?
>
> I agree with William - add a fuselage ferry tank. An easy mod. Ties down &
> restraint is also easy. Gravity fed fuel. Easy to remove. On long trips easy
and
> simple = safe.
>
> I had long discussions with Vans. They did not say it would not work, but gave
> me sufficient reasons not to do it that way if there was any other way it could
> be done.
>
> Neil
>
>
>
>
>
Message 27
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Marcus
I live where it gets quite nippy in winter - I have flow in in -30c weather.
About 10 years ago I installed on of these on my Piper Cherokee.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/symtecpreheat.php
I give this a 5 star rating as it does a great job. I like the oil sump
heater as it heats the old and then the engine. When my EGT / CHT temps are
up, it means the who engine, including the core is heated. Heating the
cylinders first seems counter intuitive but may be wrong.
Any way, cheaper is not necessarily better. The nice thin about these
heaters is that they are elements in solid al epoxied to the sump. Not
silicone pads that might age.
Anyways, this just my opinion...
Cheers
Les
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Cooper
Sent: January-08-11 3:03 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Engine heater
As winter has been well established this year already, I'm once again in the
mood for an engine heater. I had planned on ordering the one from Van's
when I thought to do a Google search. Here's something that came up and I'm
struggling for a reason not to go for it:
http://www.amazon.com/Kats-24150-Watt-Universal-Heater/dp/B000I8TQD6/ref=pd_
sim_auto_2
It appears to be thermostatically controlled and attaches to the oil sump
like the $178 version but at only $22. Any points to consider would be
appreciated.
Marcus
40286
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Engine heater |
Marcus, looks very similar to the Reiff oil pan heater on our 360 Lycoming.
- =0AOnly difference is ours is only 100W.- I say go for it.=0A=0ARick
=0A#40956=0ASoutghampton, Ont=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________________________
_=0AFrom: Marcus Cooper <coop85@verizon.net>=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com
=0ASent: Sat, January 8, 2011 5:02:49 PM=0ASubject: RV10-List: Engine heate
>=0A=0AAs winter has been well established this year already, I'm once agai
n in the=0Amood for an engine heater.- I had planned on ordering the one
from Van's=0Awhen I thought to do a Google search.- Here's something that
came up and I'm=0Astruggling for a reason not to go for it:=0Ahttp://www.a
mazon.com/Kats-24150-Watt-Universal-Heater/dp/B000I8TQD6/ref=pd_=0Asim_au
to_2=0A=0AIt appears to be thermostatically controlled and attaches to the
oil sump=0Alike the $178 version but at only $22.- Any points to consider
-========================
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admi
======0A=0A
Message 29
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| Subject: | Hole in fuselage under wing |
How have others closed up the small opening or hole on each side of the fuselage,
just below and aft of the leading edge of the wing?
Thanks.
David Leikam
RV10
N89DA
Gas in the wings, getting ready to light the fire!
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