Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:20 AM - Re: Engine heater (Pascal)
2. 07:39 AM - Re: Engine heater (Pascal)
3. 09:24 AM - Re: Engine Heaters (Dawson-Townsend,Timothy)
4. 12:14 PM - Re: Engine heater (Linn Walters)
5. 01:40 PM - Re: Re: Engine Heaters (Marcus Cooper)
6. 05:10 PM - Re: Engine heater (rv10flyer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Engine heater |
One item you didn't cover was the concern of power being applied while
unsupervised could very well cause a short and burn your hangar down. I know
it's rather rare but
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=67311
This was here locally, my understanding is that there was a short and a fire
began. It was not a preheater in this case.
Pascal
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Engine heater
A couple days ago I ran across a "letter to the editor" in Sport
Aviation (Dec. 2010, from the guy at Reiff Preheat systems.
I attached it in .jpg form for you. He makes a couple good
points about engine heating and about leaving them on all the
time. I know from people I've talked to over the years, I've
heard it various ways that you either can or can't leave
them on all the time. The letter referenced this FAQ of
Reiff's:
http://www.reiffpreheat.com/FAQ.htm#QA3
I've always just left mine plugged in, that FAQ also references
an Aviation consumer article that I have, where they tested
heaters and the dewpoint and temperature of the engines and
basically found that if you have a good heater that heats
nice and warm on the whole upper (cylinders) and lower (sump),
that you're not very likely to have the conditions that will
cause high moisture and rust in your engine if you leave it
on all the time.
The Aviation Consumer article is worth reading if you have
a subscription. If not, and you want it, let me know and
I can fax it or something.
If you have a sump heater only, you won't do as good a job
heating your engine as a whole, and you may indeed have
oil warmed that brings moisture up to condense up higher
where it's cold. So it would be much more of a problem
with the cheap partial heaters. I guess what I get out
of it is, if you really need heat, either buy a whole
system (I have the reiff with cylinder bands, which was
simple to install) and feel free to operate it is you wish,
or get a system that you only use when you plan to fly.
One of my issues is, I never know when I want to fly, at this
time of year. The days sneak up on you. If I continuous
heat, it'll be ready anytime. If not, it won't necessarily
heat fast enough (unless maybe you buy the fast system),
to be worth turning on. Add to that the complexity of
getting a remotely operated switch to turn on the heater.
In my case, I leave it on all the time and it's something
like 250 watts....so a big light bulb. The bill isn't
bad for that to run all winter. In fact, a remote switch
would cost me well over $100-150 (plus internet access with
a static IP) for a good one, and I don't spend that much
to heat the plane for a few years. Also, it takes me
15-30 minutes to get to the hangar if I wanted to go there
and turn it on, and then go wait while it heats...a waste
of time. So leaving it on works perfectly for me.
One last point is, if you put it on a timer, or cycle
it on when you think you may fly, just in case, but then
don't fly, you're probably more likely to cause moisture
buildup from the heat cycling, than if you just brought
it up to temp and left it warm. So if you heat it,
fly it, I guess is the idea, if you're not continuous.
Get the oil temp to 180F so you evaporate the moisture
before you put it away.
Anyway, all good things to think about in relation to
heaters. I've had great luck continuous heating with
both a Tanis and Reiff system. The only negative about
the Tanis for me today would be it uses the CHT bayonet
port, which I use for my probes. If you use the Tanis,
you'll probably need ring type CHT probes which aren't
quite as accurate.
Happy winter flying! Was out a few days ago...and with
my daughter we were climbing over 2200fpm with the 2 of
us. Winter performance is great!
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 1/8/2011 9:12 PM, Les Kearney wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Les Kearney"<kearney@shaw.ca>
>
> Marcus
>
> I live where it gets quite nippy in winter - I have flow in in -30c
> weather.
> About 10 years ago I installed on of these on my Piper Cherokee.
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/symtecpreheat.php
>
> I give this a 5 star rating as it does a great job. I like the oil sump
> heater as it heats the old and then the engine. When my EGT / CHT temps
> are
> up, it means the who engine, including the core is heated. Heating the
> cylinders first seems counter intuitive but may be wrong.
>
> Any way, cheaper is not necessarily better. The nice thin about these
> heaters is that they are elements in solid al epoxied to the sump. Not
> silicone pads that might age.
>
> Anyways, this just my opinion...
>
> Cheers
>
> Les
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Engine heater |
My point was just a reminder about power in general (trickle charger, air
compressor, etc) not specific to a preheater that is applying heat.
More of a reminder about be careful to power off items that are not needed
when away.
-----Original Message-----
From: Pascal
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Engine heater
One item you didn't cover was the concern of power being applied while
unsupervised could very well cause a short and burn your hangar down. I know
it's rather rare but
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=67311
This was here locally, my understanding is that there was a short and a fire
began. It was not a preheater in this case.
Pascal
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Engine heater
A couple days ago I ran across a "letter to the editor" in Sport
Aviation (Dec. 2010, from the guy at Reiff Preheat systems.
I attached it in .jpg form for you. He makes a couple good
points about engine heating and about leaving them on all the
time. I know from people I've talked to over the years, I've
heard it various ways that you either can or can't leave
them on all the time. The letter referenced this FAQ of
Reiff's:
http://www.reiffpreheat.com/FAQ.htm#QA3
I've always just left mine plugged in, that FAQ also references
an Aviation consumer article that I have, where they tested
heaters and the dewpoint and temperature of the engines and
basically found that if you have a good heater that heats
nice and warm on the whole upper (cylinders) and lower (sump),
that you're not very likely to have the conditions that will
cause high moisture and rust in your engine if you leave it
on all the time.
The Aviation Consumer article is worth reading if you have
a subscription. If not, and you want it, let me know and
I can fax it or something.
If you have a sump heater only, you won't do as good a job
heating your engine as a whole, and you may indeed have
oil warmed that brings moisture up to condense up higher
where it's cold. So it would be much more of a problem
with the cheap partial heaters. I guess what I get out
of it is, if you really need heat, either buy a whole
system (I have the reiff with cylinder bands, which was
simple to install) and feel free to operate it is you wish,
or get a system that you only use when you plan to fly.
One of my issues is, I never know when I want to fly, at this
time of year. The days sneak up on you. If I continuous
heat, it'll be ready anytime. If not, it won't necessarily
heat fast enough (unless maybe you buy the fast system),
to be worth turning on. Add to that the complexity of
getting a remotely operated switch to turn on the heater.
In my case, I leave it on all the time and it's something
like 250 watts....so a big light bulb. The bill isn't
bad for that to run all winter. In fact, a remote switch
would cost me well over $100-150 (plus internet access with
a static IP) for a good one, and I don't spend that much
to heat the plane for a few years. Also, it takes me
15-30 minutes to get to the hangar if I wanted to go there
and turn it on, and then go wait while it heats...a waste
of time. So leaving it on works perfectly for me.
One last point is, if you put it on a timer, or cycle
it on when you think you may fly, just in case, but then
don't fly, you're probably more likely to cause moisture
buildup from the heat cycling, than if you just brought
it up to temp and left it warm. So if you heat it,
fly it, I guess is the idea, if you're not continuous.
Get the oil temp to 180F so you evaporate the moisture
before you put it away.
Anyway, all good things to think about in relation to
heaters. I've had great luck continuous heating with
both a Tanis and Reiff system. The only negative about
the Tanis for me today would be it uses the CHT bayonet
port, which I use for my probes. If you use the Tanis,
you'll probably need ring type CHT probes which aren't
quite as accurate.
Happy winter flying! Was out a few days ago...and with
my daughter we were climbing over 2200fpm with the 2 of
us. Winter performance is great!
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 1/8/2011 9:12 PM, Les Kearney wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Les Kearney"<kearney@shaw.ca>
>
> Marcus
>
> I live where it gets quite nippy in winter - I have flow in in -30c
> weather.
> About 10 years ago I installed on of these on my Piper Cherokee.
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/symtecpreheat.php
>
> I give this a 5 star rating as it does a great job. I like the oil sump
> heater as it heats the old and then the engine. When my EGT / CHT temps
> are
> up, it means the who engine, including the core is heated. Heating the
> cylinders first seems counter intuitive but may be wrong.
>
> Any way, cheaper is not necessarily better. The nice thin about these
> heaters is that they are elements in solid al epoxied to the sump. Not
> silicone pads that might age.
>
> Anyways, this just my opinion...
>
> Cheers
>
> Les
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Heaters |
Listers:
I've got a Reiff sump heater which I recently installed. Even with some co
ld temps here, as long as the plane is in the hanger with cowl plugs and he
ater on, even the top part of the engine is up to about 75 degrees F, witho
ut any special blankets or cylinder heaters. I can't see much moisture con
densing at 75 degrees.
I agree with Tim O. that in the grand scheme of things, paying to keep a pr
e-heater plugged in all the time is not a ton of money, especially when fue
l is $5/gallon. But, not wanting to be wasteful, I got one of these kits,
and actually just soldered it together last night:
http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/product/view/?id=500221
http://www.apogeekits.com/remote_control_via_cell_phone.htm
I've got a $10 pre-paid TracPhone that will trigger it. You don't even nee
d to spend minutes. Just let it ring once or twice. Going to set it up th
is weekend.
Tim
Tim Dawson-Townsend
RV-10 N52KS (http://aprs.fi/?call=n52ks)
tdt@aurora.aero<mailto:tdt@aurora.aero>
617-500-4812 (office)
617-905-4800 (mobile)
smaller flight
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Engine heater |
The 'cause' as stated in the thread was sub-standard wiring. Electrical
fires are usually due to overloaded outlets, frayed wires, and .......
replacing that 15 or 20 amp breaker with 50 amp ones. The breaker swap
is the most squawked item when the electrical system is checked 15 or 20
years after the hangars were approved. Any 'shorts' should trip the
breaker ..... if it's the correct one.
Linn
On 1/19/2011 10:16 AM, Pascal wrote:
>
> One item you didn't cover was the concern of power being applied while
> unsupervised could very well cause a short and burn your hangar down.
> I know it's rather rare but
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=67311
>
> This was here locally, my understanding is that there was a short and
> a fire began. It was not a preheater in this case.
> Pascal
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Tim Olson
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 8:25 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Engine heater
>
> A couple days ago I ran across a "letter to the editor" in Sport
> Aviation (Dec. 2010, from the guy at Reiff Preheat systems.
> I attached it in .jpg form for you. He makes a couple good
> points about engine heating and about leaving them on all the
> time. I know from people I've talked to over the years, I've
> heard it various ways that you either can or can't leave
> them on all the time. The letter referenced this FAQ of
> Reiff's:
>
> http://www.reiffpreheat.com/FAQ.htm#QA3
>
> I've always just left mine plugged in, that FAQ also references
> an Aviation consumer article that I have, where they tested
> heaters and the dewpoint and temperature of the engines and
> basically found that if you have a good heater that heats
> nice and warm on the whole upper (cylinders) and lower (sump),
> that you're not very likely to have the conditions that will
> cause high moisture and rust in your engine if you leave it
> on all the time.
>
> The Aviation Consumer article is worth reading if you have
> a subscription. If not, and you want it, let me know and
> I can fax it or something.
>
> If you have a sump heater only, you won't do as good a job
> heating your engine as a whole, and you may indeed have
> oil warmed that brings moisture up to condense up higher
> where it's cold. So it would be much more of a problem
> with the cheap partial heaters. I guess what I get out
> of it is, if you really need heat, either buy a whole
> system (I have the reiff with cylinder bands, which was
> simple to install) and feel free to operate it is you wish,
> or get a system that you only use when you plan to fly.
>
> One of my issues is, I never know when I want to fly, at this
> time of year. The days sneak up on you. If I continuous
> heat, it'll be ready anytime. If not, it won't necessarily
> heat fast enough (unless maybe you buy the fast system),
> to be worth turning on. Add to that the complexity of
> getting a remotely operated switch to turn on the heater.
> In my case, I leave it on all the time and it's something
> like 250 watts....so a big light bulb. The bill isn't
> bad for that to run all winter. In fact, a remote switch
> would cost me well over $100-150 (plus internet access with
> a static IP) for a good one, and I don't spend that much
> to heat the plane for a few years. Also, it takes me
> 15-30 minutes to get to the hangar if I wanted to go there
> and turn it on, and then go wait while it heats...a waste
> of time. So leaving it on works perfectly for me.
>
> One last point is, if you put it on a timer, or cycle
> it on when you think you may fly, just in case, but then
> don't fly, you're probably more likely to cause moisture
> buildup from the heat cycling, than if you just brought
> it up to temp and left it warm. So if you heat it,
> fly it, I guess is the idea, if you're not continuous.
> Get the oil temp to 180F so you evaporate the moisture
> before you put it away.
>
> Anyway, all good things to think about in relation to
> heaters. I've had great luck continuous heating with
> both a Tanis and Reiff system. The only negative about
> the Tanis for me today would be it uses the CHT bayonet
> port, which I use for my probes. If you use the Tanis,
> you'll probably need ring type CHT probes which aren't
> quite as accurate.
>
> Happy winter flying! Was out a few days ago...and with
> my daughter we were climbing over 2200fpm with the 2 of
> us. Winter performance is great!
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
>
>
> On 1/8/2011 9:12 PM, Les Kearney wrote:
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Les Kearney"<kearney@shaw.ca>
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>> I live where it gets quite nippy in winter - I have flow in in -30c
>> weather.
>> About 10 years ago I installed on of these on my Piper Cherokee.
>>
>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/symtecpreheat.php
>>
>> I give this a 5 star rating as it does a great job. I like the oil sump
>> heater as it heats the old and then the engine. When my EGT / CHT
>> temps are
>> up, it means the who engine, including the core is heated. Heating the
>> cylinders first seems counter intuitive but may be wrong.
>>
>> Any way, cheaper is not necessarily better. The nice thin about these
>> heaters is that they are elements in solid al epoxied to the sump. Not
>> silicone pads that might age.
>>
>> Anyways, this just my opinion...
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Les
>>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Heaters |
Looks like a pretty neat remote control system, please let us know how well
it works when you get the kit finished. I don't fly very often
(unfortunately) so this would be better than leaving it on all the time I
suspect.
Tim, thanks for the great articles and info.very useful!
Marcus
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Dawson-Townsend,Timothy
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 12:16 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Engine Heaters
Listers:
I've got a Reiff sump heater which I recently installed. Even with some
cold temps here, as long as the plane is in the hanger with cowl plugs and
heater on, even the top part of the engine is up to about 75 degrees F,
without any special blankets or cylinder heaters. I can't see much moisture
condensing at 75 degrees.
I agree with Tim O. that in the grand scheme of things, paying to keep a
pre-heater plugged in all the time is not a ton of money, especially when
fuel is $5/gallon. But, not wanting to be wasteful, I got one of these
kits, and actually just soldered it together last night:
http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/product/view/?id=500221
http://www.apogeekits.com/remote_control_via_cell_phone.htm
I've got a $10 pre-paid TracPhone that will trigger it. You don't even need
to spend minutes. Just let it ring once or twice. Going to set it up this
weekend.
Tim
Tim Dawson-Townsend
RV-10 N52KS (http://aprs.fi/?call=n52ks)
tdt@aurora.aero
617-500-4812 (office)
617-905-4800 (mobile)
smaller flight
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Engine heater |
I'll be preheating before I fly with electric furnace/blower and ductwork to cowl
inlets. Oil cooler must be preheated too. I plan on flying often enough to
keep the engine well lubricated. I don't want the extra expense and weight to
carry around for the other 8 months of the year.
--------
Wayne Gillispie, A&P 5/93, PPC 10/08
Bldr# 40983 SB Started 12/1/09.
Fuselage Sec 40 Flap System
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