Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:51 AM - Re: Re: Door design (Kelly McMullen)
2. 05:16 AM - Re: Re: Potential BIG trouble with GPS...keep those nav radios! (Kelly McMullen)
3. 06:07 AM - Re: Re: Door design (DLM)
4. 07:26 AM - Re: OT - Cirrus crash - perhaps having an open door fly off is (dmaib@me.com)
5. 08:52 AM - Lost doors & door warning-throttle system (Sheldon Olesen)
6. 10:15 AM - Re: Lost doors & door warning-throttle system (Tim Olson)
7. 12:23 PM - Re: Lost doors & door warning-throttle system (Bob Turner)
8. 12:25 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List: Warning tone (Bob Leffler)
9. 12:32 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List: Warning tone (Bob Turner)
10. 01:44 PM - Cowl Fasteners (Bob Leffler)
11. 02:04 PM - Re: Cowl Fasteners (gary)
12. 02:41 PM - Re: Cowl Fasteners (Dave Saylor)
13. 03:01 PM - Re: Cowl Fasteners (Tim Olson)
14. 03:19 PM - Re: Lost doors & door warning-throttle system (Ron B.)
15. 04:11 PM - Re: Cowl Fasteners (DLM)
16. 06:29 PM - EIS Tach (Eric_Kallio)
17. 08:33 PM - oil pressure adjustment (greghale)
18. 08:41 PM - Re: Cowl Fasteners (greghale)
19. 08:53 PM - Re: oil pressure adjustment (Kelly McMullen)
Message 1
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Hmm,
There have been only 3 significant modifications from the factory.
Only one of those areas modified was due to problems on more than one
aircraft, and actually consisted of two modifications to the same
area. (warning lights and extra latch)
Your statement is a very broad brush allegation, with a small element
of truth...yes, all aircraft accidents are due to pilot error as well.
They shouldn't have challenged nature by attempting to fly in a man
made machine.
The fact that there have been at least a dozen door incidents is no
coincidence, and very unlikely that there was significant builder
error in that many aircraft. The fact that the door latching isn't
that positive, requires significant care by the pilot to ensure
adequate engagement is all evidence of poor design. No aircraft system
should require extra special attention on every flight like the
factory door design does.
It is better that new builders be aware of the potential safety issue
and the options available to reduce the risk than to tell them "just
build it" like some would do. Better to spend a bit extra time and
perhaps money on the doors than to have the airframe damaged, have to
spend a whole lot more time fixing it, assuming losing a door doesn't
precipitate a more serious accident. With awareness builders can make
informed choices and ensure they don't suffer the same problems of
those that led the way.
Kelly
40866
doors, etc.
EAA Tech Counselor
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 10:56 PM, ddddsp1@juno.com <ddddsp1@juno.com> wrote:
>
> This can be onew OPINION but it factually is NOT TRUE. I would be willing
> to bet a large sum that ALL the incidents with the RV10 doors were either
> Pilot error OR Builder error.
>
> I will leave it at that.................just wanted new RV10 builders
> reading these post not to freak out and wonder what they must do different
> in the building process.
>
> DEAN
>
> 805HL 500 hours
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Potential BIG trouble with GPS...keep those nav radios! |
That the devices may interfere with the civilian portion of GPS's does
not necessarily mean it will interfere with the military side of the
GPS. Civilian uses only receive one of 3 channels the satellites output.
We simply don't know enough about the military side to make any
judgments, as it is classified.
If there is interference with civil side, that is where the pressure
will have to come to correct the problem.
Do not archive
On 2/12/2011 12:43 AM, mmayfield wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "mmayfield"<mmayfield@ozemail.com.au>
>
> I think that problem, if it exists, will get nipped in the bud pretty quick.
>
> There is one user who won't tolerate known GPS interference, and who is highly
influential: the military.
>
>
>
Message 3
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One other observation. When the door is closed and latched, the full
circumference of the rear pin should be in contact with the metal of the
door frame or the metal door guide (after market). This may not be the case
depending on the accuracy of your location of the door latching mechanism
within the recessed box. In our case , it was not; hence we made new pins by
buying another appropriately typed and sized tube and slotting and drilling
one end and then installing the overly long pins. we retracted the pins and
test fit; then cut and beveled so that the retracted pin would just fit
inside the door frame. After several fittings, we were satisfied with the
fit. The retracted pins just fit inside the door frame and the extended
(closed) pins make full circumference contact with the complete hole in the
metal frame. Then after the doors are closed, before engine start, I feel
all four pin ends; before committing to flight they are felt again. I do not
use the light system because one builder who lost two doors, lost one of
them after installing the light system. I have suggested to Vans that the
pins should be supplied overly long by 1/2 inch and fitted by builder, but
have seen no change.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly McMullen" <apilot2@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 5:47 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Door design
>
> Hmm,
> There have been only 3 significant modifications from the factory.
> Only one of those areas modified was due to problems on more than one
> aircraft, and actually consisted of two modifications to the same
> area. (warning lights and extra latch)
> Your statement is a very broad brush allegation, with a small element
> of truth...yes, all aircraft accidents are due to pilot error as well.
> They shouldn't have challenged nature by attempting to fly in a man
> made machine.
>
> The fact that there have been at least a dozen door incidents is no
> coincidence, and very unlikely that there was significant builder
> error in that many aircraft. The fact that the door latching isn't
> that positive, requires significant care by the pilot to ensure
> adequate engagement is all evidence of poor design. No aircraft system
> should require extra special attention on every flight like the
> factory door design does.
> It is better that new builders be aware of the potential safety issue
> and the options available to reduce the risk than to tell them "just
> build it" like some would do. Better to spend a bit extra time and
> perhaps money on the doors than to have the airframe damaged, have to
> spend a whole lot more time fixing it, assuming losing a door doesn't
> precipitate a more serious accident. With awareness builders can make
> informed choices and ensure they don't suffer the same problems of
> those that led the way.
>
> Kelly
> 40866
> doors, etc.
> EAA Tech Counselor
>
> On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 10:56 PM, ddddsp1@juno.com <ddddsp1@juno.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> This can be onew OPINION but it factually is NOT TRUE. I would be willing
>> to bet a large sum that ALL the incidents with the RV10 doors were either
>> Pilot error OR Builder error.
>>
>> I will leave it at that.................just wanted new RV10 builders
>> reading these post not to freak out and wonder what they must do
>> different
>> in the building process.
>>
>> DEAN
>>
>> 805HL 500 hours
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: OT - Cirrus crash - perhaps having an open door fly off |
is
Well, it might be a true statement that "ALL the incidents with the RV10 doors
were either Pilot error OR Builder error.", but I think the design of the doors
and the latching system make it way too easy to make these kinds of mistakes.
Aviation design history is full of these kinds of weak designs. They usually get
modified/re-engineered at some point.
Having built the airplane and now flown it 330 hours, I agree with the statement
that the doors and latching system are a real "weak link" on this airplane.
I love the airplane, but that's the way I see it.
--------
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330752#330752
Message 5
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| Subject: | Lost doors & door warning-throttle system |
I've been reading the lost door posts and I am dismayed that there is
still no definitive solution. I have Van's door fix and have not
installed it. After I read the post from the guy who blew the door open
during run up with Vans door catch installed it seemed useless.
The key to safe doors is to be sure the pins are in the door frame holes
and long enough. I never liked Vans magnetic switches for sensing where
the pins are so I use micro switches. The micro switches are held in
place using a bracket attached to the screws above and below the pin
hole in the frame. It is designed so that each microswitch has to be
touched for the light to turn off-- that is each microswitch is capable
of turning the light on by itself. Any door misalignments with one pin
in and one pin out will still trigger the lights and horn. I recently
added a throttle position switch to turn on a horn if the throttle is
wide open and the door pins are not correctly aligned. The throttle
bracket is mounted to a bolt on top of the air cleaner box. The horn can
be defeated with a switch and the horn resets itself if the throttle is
retarded so the system rearms itself. My big problem is that my Bose
headsets are very good at canceling the horn noise. If any of you know
how to make a device that can make an obnoxious tone and send to it to
the audio panel I would like to hear about it. I borrowed heavily from
my Long-EZ's canopy-gear-throttle warning system for the design. It
uses the relays and lights that came with the kit and about $40 of Radio
Shack parts. I feel if the pins are in the correct position and deep
enough through the frame the doors are safe and this system tells you if
both conditions are met and gives a final warning before takeoff if they
are not met.
Sheldon Olesen
N475PV 239 hrs
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Lost doors & door warning-throttle system |
What do you mean no definitive solution? Sean's latch mechanism is basically an
ideal fix and is available as a retrofit... You can't do much better than that
for those that want a better system.
On Feb 12, 2011, at 10:31 AM, Sheldon Olesen <saolesen@sirentel.net> wrote:
>
> I've been reading the lost door posts and I am dismayed that there is still no
definitive solution. I have Van's door fix and have not installed it. After
I read the post from the guy who blew the door open during run up with Vans
door catch installed it seemed useless.
>
> The key to safe doors is to be sure the pins are in the door frame holes and
long enough. I never liked Vans magnetic switches for sensing where the pins
are so I use micro switches. The micro switches are held in place using a bracket
attached to the screws above and below the pin hole in the frame. It is designed
so that each microswitch has to be touched for the light to turn off--
that is each microswitch is capable of turning the light on by itself. Any door
misalignments with one pin in and one pin out will still trigger the lights
and horn. I recently added a throttle position switch to turn on a horn if the
throttle is wide open and the door pins are not correctly aligned. The throttle
bracket is mounted to a bolt on top of the air cleaner box. The horn can be
defeated with a switch and the horn resets itself if the throttle is retarded
so the system rearms itself. My big problem is that my Bose headsets are very
good at canceling the horn noise. If any of you know how to make a device
that can make an obnoxious tone and send to it to the audio panel I would like
to hear about it. I borrowed heavily from my Long-EZ's canopy-gear-throttle
warning system for the design. It uses the relays and lights that came with
the kit and about $40 of Radio Shack parts. I feel if the pins are in the correct
position and deep enough through the frame the doors are safe and this
system tells you if both conditions are met and gives a final warning before takeoff
if they are not met.
>
> Sheldon Olesen
> N475PV 239 hrs
>
> <Door-Throttle Warning System 2.pdf>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Lost doors & door warning-throttle system |
It seems to me that an important part of Sean's upgrade are the longer racks, which
give a greater engagement depth.
This is such a simple mod that I do not understand why Van's hasn't changed the
plans to cut the racks longer and get a longer throw.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330789#330789
Message 8
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| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List: Warning tone |
Sheldon,
Here are a couple tone generators. I'm sure that there are more. Then just
route to your intercom.
http://www.vx-aviation.com/page_2.html#AL-1A_more
http://www.gretzaero.com/Toneboard.html
bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sheldon
Olesen
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 11:54 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Warning tone
Hi Bob,
I designed a door-throttle warning system for my RV-10 that was heavily
influenced by the Long-EZ canopy-throttle-gear warning system. It has a
warning horn that goes off if the throttle is wide open and the door pins
are not in the correct position. My problem is my Bose headsets are very
good at canceling the horn noise. Is there a simple way to make a device to
add an obnoxious tone through the audio panel? A couple of inputs to the
device would also take care of the stall warning horn.
Thanks,
Sheldon Olesen
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List: Warning tone |
Even easier - if your current horn is a speaker, and one side of the speaker is
grounded, just route a wire from the 'hot' side of the speaker to an unswitched
audio panel input.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330792#330792
Message 10
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I was talking to a recently flying RV-10 pilot who just removed his top cowl
hinges along the firewall because of some blow back from the hinge opening.
Another RV-10 I just saw, the paint is starting to crack around the hinge
area.
I'm curious if any of the flying RV-10s that installed either the standard
hinges or camlocs wished they made a different decision?
Thanks,
Bob
Message 11
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I like my hinges. I do get some staining if I fly through rain, but got
that with cam-locs on other planes too.
Gary Specketer
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 4:34 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Fasteners
I was talking to a recently flying RV-10 pilot who just removed his top cowl
hinges along the firewall because of some blow back from the hinge opening.
Another RV-10 I just saw, the paint is starting to crack around the hinge
area.
I'm curious if any of the flying RV-10s that installed either the standard
hinges or camlocs wished they made a different decision?
Thanks,
Bob
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl Fasteners |
I have camlocs everywhere except the aft edge of the lower cowl. I
wish I'd put them there, too, more for the ease of operation and not
so much the sealing. I think most people end up going to screws for
the bottom near the exhaust pipes. I had to because the hinges kept
failing.
Also, behind the prop you pretty much have to use screws. Everything
else I've seen people try--hinges, camlocs, etc--always ends up too
loose.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Bob Leffler <rv@thelefflers.com> wrote:
> I was talking to a recently flying RV-10 pilot who just removed his top cowl
> hinges along the firewall because of some blow back from the hinge opening.
> Another RV-10 I just saw, the paint is starting to crack around the hinge
> area.
>
>
> Im curious if any of the flying RV-10s that installed either the standard
> hinges or camlocs wished they made a different decision?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Bob
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl Fasteners |
Same here....I get some now in rain and did in my last plane with camloks to
o.
On Feb 12, 2011, at 4:01 PM, "gary" <speckter@comcast.net> wrote:
> I like my hinges. I do get some staining if I fly through rain, but got t
hat with cam-locs on other planes too.
>
> Gary Specketer
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler
> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 4:34 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Fasteners
>
> I was talking to a recently flying RV-10 pilot who just removed his top co
wl hinges along the firewall because of some blow back from the hinge openin
g. Another RV-10 I just saw, the paint is starting to crack around the hing
e area.
>
> I=99m curious if any of the flying RV-10s that installed either the s
tandard hinges or camlocs wished they made a different decision?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
==========================
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=========
==========================
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>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Lost doors & door warning-throttle system |
With the retro kit from Sean the racks are not longer. Providing care is taken
to optimize the travel, penetration through the metal frame is not a problem.
One has to understand the concept and obtain full travel. The center latch in
Sean's kit is key to me. If the door is not pulled on properly, the center latch
hits the door sill bracket and rotation of the door handle cannot continue.
A little tug inward for the center latch to clear the top of the catch bracket.
The cam now catches the bracket and then the rotation can continue and the
pins will be lined up. So not only does the center cam latch help with pin line
up it also is an indicator that the pins are not lined up.
Ron
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330815#330815
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl Fasteners |
Everywhere on the 10 where you have rivets in fiberglass, you should
consider laying a layer of glass or glass tape as these will work their
way through the paint in a hundred hours or so. The blinds holding the
top on and the solids holding the cowl hinges come to mind... How do I
know? I did this on every spot on the Glastar but one. I missed the 4
solids holding the oil door on. A hundred hours later the heads of the
rivets could be seen emerging through the paint.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Leffler
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 2:33 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Fasteners
I was talking to a recently flying RV-10 pilot who just removed his
top cowl hinges along the firewall because of some blow back from the
hinge opening. Another RV-10 I just saw, the paint is starting to crack
around the hinge area.
I'm curious if any of the flying RV-10s that installed either the
standard hinges or camlocs wished they made a different decision?
Thanks,
Bob
Message 16
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Been through the archives and the Yahoo group. On the GRT EIS 6000 and the tach
from the Lightspeed III I have the wire run from pin 6 on the Lightspeed input
connector to the GRT EIS pin 12. The tach P/R is set to 3 and the sensitivity
to "H". Still have no tach indications. So, after reading the data in the previously
cited sources has anyone had any luck in pulling the resistor in the
EIS in getting any indications on the tach? Anything else worked for you?
Eric Kallio
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330832#330832
Message 17
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| Subject: | oil pressure adjustment |
Hey Guys,
My oil pressure has been running a tad bit high. I wanted to adjust the pressure
down. Does anyone know which way (CW CCW) the adjustment screw should be turned
to lower the pressure? I could guess, but if I'm wrong, I have to pull
the cowling off again. Don't want to chip the new paint.
Thanks,
Greg...
--------
Greg Hale rv10 -- N210KH
www.nwacaptain.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330849#330849
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl Fasteners |
I used the SkyBolt camlocs on the RV10. They are great for fiberglass. They adjust
in or out to compensate for various thickness. I used these on the RV8.
Greg...
--------
Greg Hale rv10 -- N210KH
www.nwacaptain.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330851#330851
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: oil pressure adjustment |
I would recommend leaving it alone. Slightly high won't hurt anything.
It likely will come down as soon as warm weather returns.
On 2/12/2011 9:29 PM, greghale wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "greghale"<ghale5224@aol.com>
>
> Hey Guys,
> My oil pressure has been running a tad bit high. I wanted to adjust the pressure
down. Does anyone know which way (CW CCW) the adjustment screw should be
turned to lower the pressure? I could guess, but if I'm wrong, I have to pull
the cowling off again. Don't want to chip the new paint.
>
> Thanks,
> Greg...
>
> --------
> Greg Hale rv10 -- N210KH
> www.nwacaptain.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330849#330849
>
>
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