Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:08 AM - Door Hinges (Kelly McMullen)
2. 05:27 AM - Re: Door Hinges (Seano)
3. 06:00 AM - Re: Door Hinges (Kelly McMullen)
4. 06:06 AM - Re: Door Hinges (Don McDonald)
5. 06:12 AM - Whirlwind Propeller (Andy Turner)
6. 06:26 AM - Re: fuel leak (Mike Schulz)
7. 06:49 AM - Re: Whirlwind Propeller (Kelly McMullen)
8. 07:31 AM - Re: fuel leak (Albert Gardner)
9. 07:32 AM - Re: Whirlwind Propeller (tsts4)
10. 07:37 AM - Re: Door Hinges (Bill Watson)
11. 10:31 AM - Re: Penetrating oil (Chuck Weyant)
12. 02:15 PM - Re: fuel leak (Bruce Johnson)
13. 03:07 PM - Re: fuel leak (davidsoutpost@comcast.net)
14. 04:29 PM - Middle Tennesse Home with Private Airstrip For Sale By Owner (Ratherfly)
15. 04:49 PM - Re: fuel leak (Kelly McMullen)
16. 07:12 PM - Re: fuel leak (DLM)
17. 07:27 PM - Re: fuel tank leak (Wayne Williams)
18. 08:03 PM - Re: fuel leak (Miller John)
Message 1
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Getting near to installing the hinges, and find that Vans didn't bother
to mark them at all. I haven't found on any build logs anything that
identifies which is left and right. Does the high side go to the front
or rear?
Kelly
--
Message 2
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Not next to my plane yet but I'm pretty sure the high sides face away from each
for the contour of the cabin top and door top. It's not that they all face fwd
or aft. They mirror each other.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 28, 2011, at 6:04, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
> Getting near to installing the hinges, and find that Vans didn't bother to mark
them at all. I haven't found on any build logs anything that identifies which
is left and right. Does the high side go to the front or rear?
> Kelly
> --
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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Thanks Sean.
On 2/28/2011 6:17 AM, Seano wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Seano<sean@braunandco.com>
>
> Not next to my plane yet but I'm pretty sure the high sides face away from each
for the contour of the cabin top and door top. It's not that they all face
fwd or aft. They mirror each other.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 28, 2011, at 6:04, Kelly McMullen<kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen<kellym@aviating.com>
>>
>> Getting near to installing the hinges, and find that Vans didn't bother to mark
them at all. I haven't found on any build logs anything that identifies which
is left and right. Does the high side go to the front or rear?
>> Kelly
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 4
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Kelly, here is a couple of shots that should help..... btw, would you still
like =0Ato have a set of the hinge covers.- Sorry I hadn't sent them off
already.=0ADon McDonald=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AF
rom: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0AS
ent: Mon, February 28, 2011 7:04:42 AM=0ASubject: RV10-List: Door Hinges=0A
=0AGetting near to installing the hinges, and find that Vans didn't bother
to mark =0Athem at all. I haven't found on any build logs anything that ide
ntifies which is =0Aleft and right. Does the high side go to the front or r
=========================0A
===================0A=0A=0A
Message 5
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| Subject: | Whirlwind Propeller |
I just found out that Whirlwind has developed a two blade prop for the RV-10. Below
is a quote from an email exchange with Whirlwind:
> The RV-10 is 79" in diameter and the system weight is 43#. The blade design
is based on the 200 RV series blade. Feedback from the units we have in the field
are very positive.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob
--------
Andy Turner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332286#332286
Message 6
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Be very careful with any kind of vacuum because it takes very little to
internally collapse any container not designed for vacuum.
When deciding what to use for a vacuum source someshop vacs pull vacuum by
pulling air through an electric motor with brushes.
The air is filtered before it gets to the brushes in the motor but it is
still gas fumes and they are very explosive and even if yours doesn't go
through the motor the spark from the brushes will be very close to the
fumes. Sometime back there was a posting about plugged vents on RV10 fuel
tanks and the tanks where collapsing. Sorry if this got long but I work
around gas and other explosive type fumes and would rather not see a posting
in the future about explosions or collapsing fuel tanks. Loctite green will
wick around the rivet without vacuum as long as there is no internal
pressure. Empty the tank and leave the cap off. I don't know what the
actual statistics are fumes exploding in shop vacs but I know it does
occur. Do you feel lucky???? Google it. It does happen.
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 9:18 PM, Rob Kochman <rv10rob@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey, at least they've heard of the problem this time.
>
> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> If that is what the so-called experts told you, they simply don't know
>> what they are talking about, or are giving you a pacifying excuse with
>> no basis in fact. Pro-seal only gets gummy if it wasn't mixed and
>> cured correctly to start with, or was exposed long term to auto-gas.
>> There are many Mooneys no only with wet wing tanks, but with wet wing
>> aux tanks that are left empty most of the time. Current versions of
>> Pro-seal, or Flamemaster Chemseal do not need to be kept wet with
>> fuel. If that were true, your tanks would leak like a sieve the first
>> time you put fuel in them, since it likely will have been a year or
>> two from the sealing to the filling for first flight.
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Bruce Johnson
>> <bruce1hwjohnson@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Join the club, The experts at Vans said the proseal gets gummy due to
>> the exposure to air. So in their words, keep your tanks full. I scraped the
>> proseal off and applied some two part epoxy to my leaking rivets, but they
>> were in the the area between the wing and cabin that is hidden from sight.
>> Deem's said the course of action for visible leaks is putting the tanks
>> under vacuum and letting some green loc-tite get sucked in. I did that and
>> then added the epoxy, so not sure which worked but my blue stain had gone
>> away. Mine were quick build too and both leaked at the the same location.
>> Good luck. And for the vacuum I used my shop vac and it seemed to work well.
>> Good Luck
>> >
>> > Bruce 151BJ 39 hrs
>>
>>
>> scription,
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ====
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Rob Kochman
> RV-10 "Finishing" Kit
> Woodinville, WA (near Seattle)
> http://kochman.net/N819K
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Whirlwind Propeller |
Do they have a 3 blade? While a 2 blade composite should be smoother
than 2 blade aluminum, I think a 3 blade composite would have even less
vibration.
On 2/28/2011 7:10 AM, Andy Turner wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Andy Turner"<aturner@clarion.edu>
>
> I just found out that Whirlwind has developed a two blade prop for the RV-10.
Below is a quote from an email exchange with Whirlwind:
>
>
>> The RV-10 is 79" in diameter and the system weight is 43#. The blade design
is based on the 200 RV series blade. Feedback from the units we have in the
field are very positive.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Rob
>
> --------
> Andy Turner
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332286#332286
>
>
Message 8
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Many builders tested their tanks using a water manometer to raise the
pressure about 4". You can use the same setup to instead draw a vacuum.
Watch closely when drawing the vacuum so that the tank does not distort.
Albert Gardner
N991RV
Yuma, AZ
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Whirlwind Propeller |
Any details--i.e. FP (including ground adjustable) or CS, projected price, etc?
For my money, if it's not CS then it's a no-go.
--------
Todd Stovall
728TT (reserved)
RV-10 Empacone, Wings, Fuse
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332303#332303
Message 10
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FYI, the hinges definitely rate multiple trial fittings and clear
marking. I've found it impossible to visually determine which hinge is
which. When I guess, it's ALWAYS wrong. Only my markings allow me to
get them back on right. And when you paint and prime, make sure you
maintain your marks.
Bill "screw up once, then measure thrice" Watson
On 2/28/2011 8:04 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> Getting near to installing the hinges, and find that Vans didn't
> bother to mark them at all. I haven't found on any build logs anything
> that identifies which is left and right. Does the high side go to the
> front or rear?
> Kelly
Message 11
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I use the acetone and atf and always thought it superior to all the other
commercial stuff. Guess it is.
Chuck
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 4:36 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Penetrating oil
This is the information you were looking for.
=========
Machinist's Workshop magazine tested penetrants for break out torque on
rusted nuts. They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrants
with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a
"scientifically rusted" environment. The results are as follows;
Penetrating oil..... Average load
None ............ ......516 pounds
WD-40 ................238 pounds
PB Blaster ............214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ..... 127 pounds
Kano Kroil ............106 pounds
ATF-Acetone mix....53 pounds
The ATF-Acetone mix was a "home brew" mix of 50-50 automatic transmission
fluid and acetone.
Message 12
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Kelly, I agree with you 100% but that is what they claimed. After that I ju
st =0Adidn't ask them anymore questions. I went back and looked for the ema
ils to post =0Abut I must have deleted them.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________
________________=0AFrom: Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com>=0ATo: rv10-list
@matronics.com=0ASent: Sun, February 27, 2011 7:02:54 PM=0ASubject: Re: RV1
lot2@gmail.com>=0A=0AIf that is what the so-called experts told you, they s
imply don't know=0Awhat they are talking about, or are giving you a pacifyi
ng excuse with=0Ano basis in fact. Pro-seal only gets gummy if it wasn't mi
xed and=0Acured correctly to start with, or was exposed long term to auto-g
as.=0AThere are many Mooneys no only with wet wing tanks, but with wet wing
=0Aaux tanks that are left empty most of the time. Current versions of=0APr
o-seal, or Flamemaster Chemseal do not need to be kept wet with=0Afuel. If
that were true, your tanks would leak like a sieve the first=0Atime you put
fuel in them, since it likely will have been a year or=0Atwo from the seal
ing to the filling for first flight.=0A=0AOn Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 5:44 PM,
Bruce Johnson=0A<bruce1hwjohnson@yahoo.com> wrote:=0A>=0A> Join the club, T
he experts at Vans said the proseal gets gummy due to the =0A>exposure to a
ir. So in their words, keep your tanks full. I scraped the proseal =0A>off
and applied some two part epoxy to my leaking- rivets, but they were-in
-the =0A>the area between the wing and cabin that is hidden from sight. D
eem's said the =0A>course of action for visible leaks is-putting the tank
s under vacuum and letting =0A>some green loc-tite get sucked in. I did tha
t and then added the epoxy, so not =0A>sure which worked but my blue stain
had gone away. Mine were quick build too and =0A>both leaked at the the sam
e location. Good luck. And for the vacuum-I used my =0A>shop vac and it s
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, L
=========0A=0A=0A
Message 13
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I read all the time on this list and the VAF forum about problems with the fast
build kits after they are received. Granted, most are build correctly,,,, but
what do you guy's expect from products built in third world countries from workers
with questionable skills, chewing Khat and high as a kite making wages that
aren't much better than a bowl of rice a day? No way I would ever risk my
life, let alone family or friends flying behind questionable quality, some of
which can not even be examined when received.
David Clifford
RV-10 Builder
Howell, MI
Message 14
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| Subject: | Middle Tennesse Home with Private Airstrip For Sale By Owner |
But not for much longer. In April the family plans to list the property with a
real estate professional. If you, or anyone you know is interested in owning a
home with a private airstrip, take a look at the website that was created to
showcase the home.
http://tinyurl.com/ownyourdream
or if you'd rather reach the site directly, it's http://sites.google.com/site/longmeadowfarmairport/
Blue Skies!
Tina
One thing of note, the owners have added almost 12 acres to the original offering.
(They heeded my advice and have tossed in the two building lots to the home/hangar
property making it 33+ acres for the same $499,000)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332338#332338
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/1_264.jpg
Message 15
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Well, if you go back to Van's website, the workers are supposedly
skilled and experienced. I would put any blame squarely on Van's
pinching pennies and letting his customers be his quality control
dept.
I quote from the website:
"How would you like to hire a team of experienced experts, with over a
thousand completed RV airframes on their resume, for twenty-five
weeks, eight hours a day?
They will build the first half of your kit, jigging and riveting about
75% of your metal airframe. They will do all the messy jobs, like
sealing the fuel tanks and priming to protect against corrosion. They
never leave a mess, make no noise, dont need insurance and never want
to use your bathroom. When they leave, you will have only 800-1200
hours of work to finish the airplane.
And they work for about eight dollars an hour!
We dont know anybody like that either, but we can tell you how to get
the result: Order a QuickBuild Kit."
As to defects, I spent around 10 days doing inspection, step by step
through the plans, annotating anything I wasn't satisfied with. I'm
picky after 30+ years working on certified planes and inspecting them
for their annuals. Anything I didn't like I drilled out the rivets,
took out the part and fixed it right. That is what the plans tell you
to do, Van's marketing hype aside. Comparing the mistakes the QB had
vs what the average builder is going to do, is kind of a toss-up. So
it comes down to whether you want to blame yourself or Van's
subcontractor? If you think that because you built it yourself it is
safer to take your family in than the Quick build kits, you are
deluding yourself.
Kelly
fiberglass hell
A&P/IA
On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 4:04 PM, <davidsoutpost@comcast.net> wrote:
> I read all the time on this list and the VAF forum about problems with the
> fast build kits after they are received. Granted, most are build
> correctly,,,, but what do you guy's expect from products built in third
> world countries from workers with questionable skills, chewing Khat and high
> as a kite making wages that aren't much better than a bowl of rice a day?
> No way I would ever risk my life, let alone family or friends flying behind
> questionable quality, some of which can not even be examined when received.
>
> David Clifford
>
> RV-10 Builder
> Howell, MI
>
>
Message 16
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My aircraft contains QB wings (#24)and QB fuselage (#8) . Now have
400TT. IIRC there was very little that I could not inspect. My QB tanks
do not leak. Your statements about foreign workers sounds right out of a
union management's playbook. I lived and worked outside the USA before
retirement and by far the most skilled craftsman in the Middle East and
Far East are the Phillipinos. Their work was "bought" by skilled
Americans. We trusted these foreign workers for a lot of complex and
difficult tasks on projects a lot more costly and important than these
aircraft. I trust these foreign workers enough to have purchased a new
Honda Accord and a new Kia Forte.
One only needs to look at the before and after pictures of 1940s/2010s
Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and Detroit Hiroshima and Nagasaki are modern
cities and Detroit is abandoned shacks and burnt out buildings. Google
modern Detroit and modern Hiroshima. More depends on the quality of
administration than the perceived inadequacies of the workforce.
After seeing Kelly's post, the $8 an hour in the Philippines equates to
$16000 per year. The projected cost of $8 per hour includes the
construction, transportation, inspection and profit. The average wage in
the Philippines is closer to $1 an hour. If the workers are getting even
$2 per hour they are doing quite well. In 1980, Pilipino bus drivers in
the Middle East were housed, fed and medicated at no charge and received
$1000 salary per month. They were also performing domestic tasks for $5
per hour in their spare time. When a driver completed his 2 year
contract, he went home with $30k-$50k and lived quite well. Some started
other businesses.
As Kelly suggests inspect and fix if desired. In my case there was very
little to correct. The QB tanks don't leak but I did not remove them to
install a stall warning and passengers do not stand on the tanks. The
only thing I regret on the QB wings is the inability to install extra
tanks when under construction. I may yet install additional outboard
tanks.
----- Original Message -----
From: davidsoutpost@comcast.net
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: fuel leak
I read all the time on this list and the VAF forum about problems with
the fast build kits after they are received. Granted, most are build
correctly,,,, but what do you guy's expect from products built in third
world countries from workers with questionable skills, chewing Khat and
high as a kite making wages that aren't much better than a bowl of rice
a day? No way I would ever risk my life, let alone family or friends
flying behind questionable quality, some of which can not even be
examined when received.
David Clifford
RV-10 Builder
Howell, MI
Message 17
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| Subject: | re: fuel tank leak |
Thanks everyone for the replies. I never would have thought of Loctite
green. The warning of using the shop vac with fuel vapor is a good one and
easy to overlook. I appreciate the solvent source. Looks like I've got
another project. At least now I know what to do!
Wayne
Message 18
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I echo Dave's comments on the QBs. Mine came in 2005 and I have (thus
far) have had no issues with them. And the quality of both the wings
and fuselage was outstanding!
grumpy
do not archive
On Feb 28, 2011, at 9:09 PM, DLM wrote:
> My aircraft contains QB wings (#24)and QB fuselage (#8) . Now have
400TT. IIRC there was very little that I could not inspect. My QB tanks
do not leak. Your statements about foreign workers sounds right out of a
union management's playbook. I lived and worked outside the USA before
retirement and by far the most skilled craftsman in the Middle East and
Far East are the Phillipinos. Their work was "bought" by skilled
Americans. We trusted these foreign workers for a lot of complex and
difficult tasks on projects a lot more costly and important than these
aircraft. I trust these foreign workers enough to have purchased a new
Honda Accord and a new Kia Forte.
>
> One only needs to look at the before and after pictures of 1940s/2010s
Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and Detroit Hiroshima and Nagasaki are modern
cities and Detroit is abandoned shacks and burnt out buildings. Google
modern Detroit and modern Hiroshima. More depends on the quality of
administration than the perceived inadequacies of the workforce.
>
> After seeing Kelly's post, the $8 an hour in the Philippines equates
to $16000 per year. The projected cost of $8 per hour includes the
construction, transportation, inspection and profit. The average wage in
the Philippines is closer to $1 an hour. If the workers are getting even
$2 per hour they are doing quite well. In 1980, Pilipino bus drivers in
the Middle East were housed, fed and medicated at no charge and received
$1000 salary per month. They were also performing domestic tasks for $5
per hour in their spare time. When a driver completed his 2 year
contract, he went home with $30k-$50k and lived quite well. Some started
other businesses.
>
> As Kelly suggests inspect and fix if desired. In my case there was
very little to correct. The QB tanks don't leak but I did not remove
them to install a stall warning and passengers do not stand on the
tanks. The only thing I regret on the QB wings is the inability to
install extra tanks when under construction. I may yet install
additional outboard tanks.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: davidsoutpost@comcast.net
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 4:04 PM
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: fuel leak
>
> I read all the time on this list and the VAF forum about problems with
the fast build kits after they are received. Granted, most are build
correctly,,,, but what do you guy's expect from products built in third
world countries from workers with questionable skills, chewing Khat and
high as a kite making wages that aren't much better than a bowl of rice
a day? No way I would ever risk my life, let alone family or friends
flying behind questionable quality, some of which can not even be
examined when received.
>
> David Clifford
>
> RV-10 Builder
> Howell, MI
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
>
>
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