Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:56 AM - Fire and off field landing (Ted Chang)
2. 06:02 AM - Re: Fire and off field landing (Les Kearney)
3. 06:03 AM - Re: Fire and off field landing (amekler@metrocast.net)
4. 06:11 AM - Re: Fire and off field landing (amekler@metrocast.net)
5. 06:14 AM - Re: Fire and off field landing (rleffler)
6. 07:24 AM - Tunnel Access From Below (Albert Gardner)
7. 07:25 AM - Re: Fire and off field landing ()
8. 07:43 AM - Re: Fire and off field landing (DLM)
9. 07:49 AM - Re: Tunnel Access From Below (dmaib@me.com)
10. 08:02 AM - Re: Fire and off field landing (Dave Saylor)
11. 08:02 AM - Re: Re: Tunnel Access From Below (Phillip Perry)
12. 08:12 AM - Re: Tunnel Access From Below (Strasnuts)
13. 08:17 AM - Re: Tunnel Access From Below (dmaib@me.com)
14. 08:36 AM - Re: Re: Tunnel Access From Below (Phillip Perry)
15. 08:42 AM - Re: Fire and off field landing (John J)
16. 09:34 AM - Re: Fire and off field landing (Linn Walters)
17. 10:01 AM - Re: Fire and off field landing (g.combs)
18. 10:32 AM - Re: Re: Tunnel Access From Below (Sean Stephens)
19. 11:58 AM - Garmin XM weather (Miller John)
20. 12:07 PM - Re: Fire and off field landing (John Cox)
21. 12:11 PM - Re: Garmin XM weather (Rob Kochman)
22. 12:26 PM - Re: Garmin XM weather (John Cox)
23. 12:26 PM - Re: Fire and off field landing (Miller John)
24. 12:31 PM - Re: Re: Tunnel Access From Below (Albert Gardner)
25. 12:36 PM - Re: Garmin XM weather (Miller John)
26. 12:36 PM - Second fire in RV10 to date (John Gonzalez)
27. 01:06 PM - Re: Second fire in RV10 to date (rv10flyer)
28. 01:06 PM - Re: Fire and off field landing (DLM)
29. 01:12 PM - Re: Fire and off field landing (Shannon Hicks)
30. 01:13 PM - Re: Garmin XM weather (Shannon Hicks)
31. 01:16 PM - Re: Fire and off field landing (civengpe)
32. 01:18 PM - Using Matronics Site (civengpe)
33. 01:21 PM - Re: Garmin XM weather (civengpe)
34. 01:48 PM - Re: Fire and off field landing (Phil N)
35. 01:53 PM - Re: Using Matronics Site (Matt Dralle)
36. 02:08 PM - Re: Re: Tunnel Access From Below (Phil Perry)
37. 03:18 PM - West Coast Formation Clinic (WCFC) This Weekend... (Matt Dralle)
38. 03:28 PM - Re: Second fire in RV10 to date (John Cox)
39. 03:28 PM - Re: Fire and off field landing (John Cox)
40. 03:35 PM - Re: Re: Tunnel Access From Below (John Cox)
41. 04:03 PM - Re: Re: Tunnel Access From Below (Patrick Thyssen)
42. 04:27 PM - Re: Fire and off field landing (Bruce Johnson)
43. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Tunnel Access From Below (Phil Perry)
44. 04:59 PM - Re: Fire and off field landing (Ted Chang)
45. 05:27 PM - Re: Re: Fire and off field landing (Phil Perry)
46. 05:30 PM - Re: Fire and off field landing (Rob Kermanj)
47. 05:37 PM - Re: Re: Fire and off field landing (Linn Walters)
48. 05:58 PM - Re: Re: Fire and off field landing (Tim Olson)
49. 06:54 PM - Re: Re: Fire and off field landing (DLM)
50. 07:13 PM - Re: Garmin XM weather (Robin Marks)
51. 08:38 PM - Re: Fire and off field landing (Ted Chang)
52. 10:10 PM - Re: Re: Fire and off field landing (John Gonzalez)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Fire and off field landing |
I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this
point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending
the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends. Without
opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened.
Here are my observations:
a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.
b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.
c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this
particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal
when I taxied out and on the take off.
d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I
still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane
stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.
e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked
quickly and put it on the ground soon.
f. After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small
fire but limited to inside the tunnel.
g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool
boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B
requirement).
h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at
around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up
and I had a three point.
i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and
just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.
Some facts:
a. There is no modification on my fuel system.
b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is
the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the
opening.
c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. I
do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.
d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire
department probably caused more damage than the fire.
I have to admit that for a few seconds when the smoke came out and my
leg felt the heat I had a thought that I was in deep trouble (burn to
death). I quickly focused on the tasks in front of me and tried to fly
the airplane and solve the problems I was facing. From that point on
there was no fear or regret. After I called 911 and my insurance agent
I got to walk down the hill, wait and think. My only negative thought
was that my accident might negatively impact a lot of builders. I don't
want to see anyone get disencouraged. I am pretty sure that what
happened to me is not a design flaw, but a builder mistake. After I
found the problem I will share with you so you can avoid this problem.
Ted
Message 2
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| Subject: | Fire and off field landing |
Ted
Thank you for your candour and willingness to share whatever can be learned
from your accident. Everyone one the list is relieved that you came out okay
on this.
Regards
Les
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted Chang
Sent: April-28-11 4:53 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Fire and off field landing
I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this point
the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending the time
doing statements and answering inquiries from friends. Without opening the
tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened.
Here are my observations:
a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.
b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.
c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this
particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal when I
taxied out and on the take off.
d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I still
did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane stopped the
cabin was almost cleared of smoke.
e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked quickly
and put it on the ground soon.
f. After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small fire
but limited to inside the tunnel.
g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool boxes
in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B requirement).
h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at
around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up and
I had a three point.
i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and just
do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.
Some facts:
a. There is no modification on my fuel system.
b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is the
quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the opening.
c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. I do
have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.
d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire department
probably caused more damage than the fire.
I have to admit that for a few seconds when the smoke came out and my leg
felt the heat I had a thought that I was in deep trouble (burn to death). I
quickly focused on the tasks in front of me and tried to fly the airplane
and solve the problems I was facing. From that point on there was no fear or
regret. After I called 911 and my insurance agent I got to walk down the
hill, wait and think. My only negative thought was that my accident might
negatively impact a lot of builders. I don't want to see anyone get
disencouraged. I am pretty sure that what happened to me is not a design
flaw, but a builder mistake. After I found the problem I will share with you
so you can avoid this problem.
Ted
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
Ted,
Thank you for the summary. I think you did a great job getting the
plane on the ground without personal injury.Your story makes me want
to get a smoke hood for my flying.
Regards,
Alan
On Thu 04/28/11 6:53 AM , Ted Chang wrote:
I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At
this
point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been
spending
the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends.
Without
opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened.
Here are my observations:
a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.
b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.
c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this
particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was
normal
when I taxied out and on the take off.
d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although
I
still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the
airplane
stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.
e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked
quickly and put it on the ground soon.
f. After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still
small
fire but limited to inside the tunnel.
g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two
tool
boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B
requirement).
h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes
off at
around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes
up
and I had a three point.
i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps
and
just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.
Some facts:
a. There is no modification on my fuel system.
b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It
is
the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from
the
opening.
c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and
firewall. I
do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.
d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire
department probably caused more damage than the fire.
I have to admit that for a few seconds when the smoke came out and
my
leg felt the heat I had a thought that I was in deep trouble (burn
to
death). I quickly focused on the tasks in front of me and tried to
fly
the airplane and solve the problems I was facing. From that point on
there was no fear or regret. After I called 911 and my insurance
agent
I got to walk down the hill, wait and think. My only negative
thought
was that my accident might negatively impact a lot of builders. I
don't
want to see anyone get disencouraged. I am pretty sure that what
happened to me is not a design flaw, but a builder mistake. After I
found the problem I will share with you so you can avoid this
problem.
Ted
Links:
------
[2]
http://metromail.metrocast.net/parse.php?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matron
ics.com%2FNavigator%3FRV10-List
[3]
http://metromail.metrocast.net/parse.php?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.mat
ronics.com
[4]
http://metromail.metrocast.net/parse.php?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matron
ics.com%2Fcontribution
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
Ted and RV-10,
Just found this link to smoke evac hoods.
http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/cockpit_smoke_hoods_197712-1.html
[1]
Regards,
Alan Mekler
n668g
On Thu 04/28/11 6:53 AM , Ted Chang wrote:
I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At
this
point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been
spending
the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends.
Without
opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened.
Here are my observations:
a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.
b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.
c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this
particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was
normal
when I taxied out and on the take off.
d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although
I
still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the
airplane
stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.
e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked
quickly and put it on the ground soon.
f. After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still
small
fire but limited to inside the tunnel.
g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two
tool
boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B
requirement).
h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes
off at
around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes
up
and I had a three point.
i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps
and
just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.
Some facts:
a. There is no modification on my fuel system.
b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It
is
the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from
the
opening.
c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and
firewall. I
do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.
d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire
department probably caused more damage than the fire.
I have to admit that for a few seconds when the smoke came out and
my
leg felt the heat I had a thought that I was in deep trouble (burn
to
death). I quickly focused on the tasks in front of me and tried to
fly
the airplane and solve the problems I was facing. From that point on
there was no fear or regret. After I called 911 and my insurance
agent
I got to walk down the hill, wait and think. My only negative
thought
was that my accident might negatively impact a lot of builders. I
don't
want to see anyone get disencouraged. I am pretty sure that what
happened to me is not a design flaw, but a builder mistake. After I
found the problem I will share with you so you can avoid this
problem.
Ted
Links:
------
[1]
http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/cockpit_smoke_hoods_197712-1.html
[3]
http://metromail.metrocast.net/parse.php?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matron
ics.com%2FNavigator%3FRV10-List
[4]
http://metromail.metrocast.net/parse.php?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.mat
ronics.com
[5]
http://metromail.metrocast.net/parse.php?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matron
ics.com%2Fcontribution
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
Ted,
Thanks for sharing your experiences and thoughts!
The community will be better from learning from your experience.
If you need any help, let me know. I'm only a couple hours away.
bob
--------
Bob Leffler
N410BL - FWF
RV-10 #40684
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338292#338292
Message 6
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| Subject: | Tunnel Access From Below |
After reading about an earlier RV-10 tunnel fire I made an opening in the
belly skin so I could quickly check the tunnel and clean the filter without
spilling fuel in the tunnel. It's a lot easier to remove the bottom cover
than to remove the carpet and tunnel cover. In my case I have to remove the
seats to get access to some of the screws. I left a piece of the original
skin that has the saddle and clamp that holds the filter so that the filter
would be at the right height. After a filter cleaning and inspection that
piece with the filter clamp is repositioned using a small plate to locate
it. There are 20 screws that attach the cover which may be overkill but I
put a nutplate at every other rivet. Would have been easier to do when
building.
Albert Gardner
N991RV
Yuma, AZ
BTW, I would be concerned that any kind of vent would introduce exhaust
gasses.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
You are a good man Ted Chang--glad you are still with us. Jay Rowe #301
---- Ted Chang <tc1234c@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
> I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this
> point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending
> the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends. Without
> opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened.
> Here are my observations:
>
> a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.
> b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.
> c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this
> particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal
> when I taxied out and on the take off.
> d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I
> still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane
> stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.
> e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked
> quickly and put it on the ground soon.
> f. After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small
> fire but limited to inside the tunnel.
> g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool
> boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B
> requirement).
> h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at
> around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up
> and I had a three point.
> i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and
> just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.
>
>
> Some facts:
>
> a. There is no modification on my fuel system.
> b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is
> the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the
> opening.
> c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. I
> do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.
> d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire
> department probably caused more damage than the fire.
>
>
> I have to admit that for a few seconds when the smoke came out and my
> leg felt the heat I had a thought that I was in deep trouble (burn to
> death). I quickly focused on the tasks in front of me and tried to fly
> the airplane and solve the problems I was facing. From that point on
> there was no fear or regret. After I called 911 and my insurance agent
> I got to walk down the hill, wait and think. My only negative thought
> was that my accident might negatively impact a lot of builders. I don't
> want to see anyone get disencouraged. I am pretty sure that what
> happened to me is not a design flaw, but a builder mistake. After I
> found the problem I will share with you so you can avoid this problem.
>
>
>
> Ted
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
donning it is the problem; I have smoke hood but not quick donning type,
so unless the AP is flying the hood won't happen.
----- Original Message -----
From: amekler@metrocast.net
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:00 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fire and off field landing
Ted,
Thank you for the summary. I think you did a great job getting the
plane on the ground without personal injury.Your story makes me want to
get a smoke hood for my flying.
Regards,
Alan
On Thu 04/28/11 6:53 AM , Ted Chang <tc1234c@roadrunner.com> wrote:
I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At
this
point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been
spending
the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends.
Without
opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened.
Here are my observations:
a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.
b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.
c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this
particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was
normal
when I taxied out and on the take off.
d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although
I
still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the
airplane
stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.
e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked
quickly and put it on the ground soon.
f. After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still
small
fire but limited to inside the tunnel.
g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two
tool
boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B
requirement).
h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes
off at
around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes
up
and I had a three point.
i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps
and
just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.
Some facts:
a. There is no modification on my fuel system.
b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It
is
the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from
the
opening.
c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and
firewall. I
do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.
d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire
department probably caused more damage than the fire.
I have to admit that for a few seconds when the smoke came out and
my
leg felt the heat I had a thought that I was in deep trouble (burn
to
death). I quickly focused on the tasks in front of me and tried to
fly
the airplane and solve the problems I was facing. From that point on
there was no fear or regret. After I called 911 and my insurance
agent
I got to walk down the hill, wait and think. My only negative
thought
was that my accident might negatively impact a lot of builders. I
don't
want to see anyone get disencouraged. I am pretty sure that what
happened to me is not a design flaw, but a builder mistake. After I
found the problem I will share with you so you can avoid this
problem.
Ted
==========
tp%3A%2F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FRV10-List"
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
==========
tp%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com"
target=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
==========
tp%3A%2F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2Fcontribution"
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Tunnel Access From Below |
Your solution is the best, Albert. If I was building again, I would definitely
do this mod. Now I have to decide if I am up to tackling it as a retrofit on my
airplane. [Rolling Eyes]
Getting to my filter from above is a real pain!
--------
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338308#338308
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
Hi Ted,
Thanks so much for your report. Great job!
One thing I'm wondering about is whether you remember using the flaps
at the time the fire started. There's been some discussion about the
flap motor as an ignition source.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 3:53 AM, Ted Chang <tc1234c@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
> I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this point
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Tunnel Access From Below |
Here's how I attempted to tackle the filter access issue from above. I
think it makes it quite a bit easier when getting everything aligned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3mpcapeBA8
Phil
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 9:47 AM, dmaib@me.com <dmaib@me.com> wrote:
>
> Your solution is the best, Albert. If I was building again, I would
> definitely do this mod. Now I have to decide if I am up to tackling it as a
> retrofit on my airplane. [Rolling Eyes]
> Getting to my filter from above is a real pain!
>
> --------
> David Maib
> RV-10 #40559
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338308#338308
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Tunnel Access From Below |
I used the Airward access cover on the side. It is very large and easy to get
to. I only have 12 hours on the plane so I can't say how it is to pull in and
out but it looks easy.
Here is a link:
http://www.airward.com/amelia/search.asp?advnav=&action=Search&store=&cat=10000016&subcat_10000003=10000016&ShowImages=&ShowDetails=&menuID=15~15&id=17
--------
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338314#338314
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Tunnel Access From Below |
Wow, Phil. That is really nice!
--------
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338315#338315
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Tunnel Access From Below |
Thanks...
The only thing that has changed since I shot the video.
1) I decided to keep the aluminum hardline from the boost pump to the
firewall.
2) I added a two cross support (between the tunnel walls) to support that
aluminum line with Adel clamps. The photo is attached to this e-mail.
Phil
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 10:15 AM, dmaib@me.com <dmaib@me.com> wrote:
>
> Wow, Phil. That is really nice!
>
> --------
> David Maib
> RV-10 #40559
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338315#338315
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Fire and off field landing |
So very happy you made it through this event, Ted. Great job!
John J
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
Thanks for the info Ted. I've had two off-field landings ..... engine
related .... and there's no real way of knowing how you will react to an
emergency until you really do have one. Your reactions appear to be
excellent. Without knowing anything about you, you've got my respect
(for what that's worth!).
I'm counting two RV-10 tunnel fires so far. the first one was destroyed
so no definitive info (that I have) emerged. Your investigation will be
valuable to the rest of us builders.
I have two questions:
1) Where did the fuel escape from the system?
2) What was the ignition source?
If you can answer those, you'll give a lot of builders more sleep at night.
To echo the many other comments .... I'm glad the outcome was
successful. The plane can be repaired.
Linn
On 4/28/2011 6:53 AM, Ted Chang wrote:
>
> I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this
> point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending
> the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends.
> Without opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what
> happened. Here are my observations:
>
> a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.
> b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.
> c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this
> particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal
> when I taxied out and on the take off.
> d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I
> still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane
> stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.
> e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked
> quickly and put it on the ground soon.
> f. After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small
> fire but limited to inside the tunnel.
> g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool
> boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B
> requirement).
> h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off
> at around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field
> slopes up and I had a three point.
> i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and
> just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.
>
>
> Some facts:
>
> a. There is no modification on my fuel system.
> b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It
> is the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from
> the opening.
> c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall.
> I do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.
> d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire
> department probably caused more damage than the fire.
>
>
> I have to admit that for a few seconds when the smoke came out and my
> leg felt the heat I had a thought that I was in deep trouble (burn to
> death). I quickly focused on the tasks in front of me and tried to fly
> the airplane and solve the problems I was facing. From that point on
> there was no fear or regret. After I called 911 and my insurance
> agent I got to walk down the hill, wait and think. My only negative
> thought was that my accident might negatively impact a lot of
> builders. I don't want to see anyone get disencouraged. I am pretty
> sure that what happened to me is not a design flaw, but a builder
> mistake. After I found the problem I will share with you so you can
> avoid this problem.
>
>
> Ted
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
Ted glad you are ok. Great job. Let me know if I can help.
Geoff Combs
N829GW
Sent from my iPhone Geoff
On Apr 28, 2011, at 12:29 PM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the info Ted. I've had two off-field landings ..... engine related
.... and there's no real way of knowing how you will react to an emergency until
you really do have one. Your reactions appear to be excellent. Without
knowing anything about you, you've got my respect (for what that's worth!).
>
> I'm counting two RV-10 tunnel fires so far. the first one was destroyed so no
definitive info (that I have) emerged. Your investigation will be valuable
to the rest of us builders.
>
> I have two questions:
> 1) Where did the fuel escape from the system?
> 2) What was the ignition source?
>
> If you can answer those, you'll give a lot of builders more sleep at night.
>
> To echo the many other comments .... I'm glad the outcome was successful. The
plane can be repaired.
>
> Linn
>
>
> On 4/28/2011 6:53 AM, Ted Chang wrote:
>>
>> I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this point
the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending the time doing
statements and answering inquiries from friends. Without opening the tunnel
and cowling I can not say for sure what happened. Here are my observations:
>>
>> a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.
>> b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.
>> c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this particular
flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal when I taxied out
and on the take off.
>> d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I still
did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane stopped the cabin
was almost cleared of smoke.
>> e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked quickly and
put it on the ground soon.
>> f. After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small fire
but limited to inside the tunnel.
>> g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool boxes
in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B requirement).
>> h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at around
60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up and I had
a three point.
>> i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and just
do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.
>>
>>
>> Some facts:
>>
>> a. There is no modification on my fuel system.
>> b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is the
quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the opening.
>> c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. I do have
insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.
>> d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire department probably
caused more damage than the fire.
>>
>>
>> I have to admit that for a few seconds when the smoke came out and my leg felt
the heat I had a thought that I was in deep trouble (burn to death). I quickly
focused on the tasks in front of me and tried to fly the airplane and solve
the problems I was facing. From that point on there was no fear or regret.
After I called 911 and my insurance agent I got to walk down the hill, wait and
think. My only negative thought was that my accident might negatively impact
a lot of builders. I don't want to see anyone get disencouraged. I am pretty
sure that what happened to me is not a design flaw, but a builder mistake. After
I found the problem I will share with you so you can avoid this problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ted
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Tunnel Access From Below |
That is very clean. I'd think that anything which reduces the number of
fittings required in the fuel system can only be a good thing.
Anyone wanna buy an installed only once and never turned on Airflow pump
and filter? :)
- Sean #40303
On 4/28/11 10:32 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:
> Thanks...
>
> The only thing that has changed since I shot the video.
>
> 1) I decided to keep the aluminum hardline from the boost pump to the
> firewall.
>
> 2) I added a two cross support (between the tunnel walls) to support
> that aluminum line with Adel clamps. The photo is attached to this
> e-mail.
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 10:15 AM, dmaib@me.com <mailto:dmaib@me.com>
> <dmaib@me.com <mailto:dmaib@me.com>> wrote:
>
> <mailto:dmaib@me.com>" <dmaib@me.com <mailto:dmaib@me.com>>
>
> Wow, Phil. That is really nice!
>
> --------
> David Maib
> RV-10 #40559
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338315#338315
>
>
> ==========
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Garmin XM weather |
For those using Garmin XM weather, Garmin put out a notice for a mandatory OS update.
Garmin states that their XM weather units will no longer work after 5 May without
the new update.
grumpy
N184JM
do not archive
Message 20
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| Subject: | Fire and off field landing |
Ted - several of your actions are Commendable. #1 you flew the aircraft
to the landing site and walked away. The remaining builders and your
underwriter should be appreciative. #2 You were willing to share and
encourage other builders with the facts, when known. - Invaluable! #3
You removed your EFIS screens and took steps to protect the residual
value of what looks like a repairable incident. Thank you.
Several questions came immediately to mind after considering those
actions. Condition of Aluminum fuel tubing, flares and fittings? Fire
Annunciation & Suppression systems? What would or could have happened
if the tunnel had been composite rather than aluminum? Smoke evacuation
and hoods. All will come out in time. This incident is the second most
valuable RV-10 incident since the loss of Dan Lloyd and much will be
gained from the post incident review.
What comes to my mind is I seem to remember Scott Schmidt (#40111) as
the first builder to provide side access panels to reach/inspect to the
maze of tubing and to service fuel filters. I reflect on DLM (#40168)
and his Halon (non dry powder) onboard suppression system. I now
reflect on the comment of lowering the inherent pressure in the tunnel
and venting fumes/smoke to the outside atmosphere and will await the
flap switch query. Your Picasso pictures are stunning! Glad your around
to share.
Your summation should be reviewed by all builders.
No modification to the VANS system.
Limiting fire damage is critical.
Fuel shutoff worked, as advertized.
Your prop strike damage was that to just the "now needed" engine
teardown or did it migrate into your avionics?
As a Tech Advisor, no one wants to hear from us how often we find flares
on tubing incorrectly manufactured or improperly torqued (under and
over). Many builders have not added the test of their "Shutoff Valve to
cut engine operation" and confirm continued function at each conditional
inspection. This drives that action home. I am thrilled that you are
reporting and I look forward to more news of the landing gear mounts,
legs and what you find. I am willing to kick-in $100 for a N718PF Chang
Relief Fund, cause your data will be worth far more than that to current
aviators, current builders, future builders and loved ones. If I could
bring Dan back I would spend even more.
Geoff can you weigh in on steps that can be applied to mitigate flame
damage to a composite tunnel under similar circumstance? Lizard skin
a.k.a. Johnston (#40410) or Zetex heat shield batting or flame-resistant
topcoat chemical application?
John
#40600
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted Chang
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:53 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Fire and off field landing
I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this
point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending
the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends. Without
opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened.
Here are my observations:
a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.
b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.
c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this
particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal
when I taxied out and on the take off.
d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I
still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane
stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.
e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked
quickly and put it on the ground soon.
f. After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small
fire but limited to inside the tunnel.
g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool
boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B
requirement).
h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at
around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up
and I had a three point.
i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and
just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.
Some facts:
a. There is no modification on my fuel system.
b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is
the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the
opening.
c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. I
do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.
d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire
department probably caused more damage than the fire.
Ted
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin XM weather |
Does anyone know, technically, what the update actually fixed? I noticed
after I did the update, I now have to acknowledge a wheather disclaimer on
startup (on my 696). I'm wondering if the update was driven by the legal
department.
-Rob
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Miller John <gengrumpy@aol.com> wrote:
>
> For those using Garmin XM weather, Garmin put out a notice for a mandatory
> OS update.
>
> Garmin states that their XM weather units will no longer work after 5 May
> without the new update.
>
> grumpy
> N184JM
>
> do not archive
>
>
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying, Phase 1
http://kochman.net/N819K
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Garmin XM weather |
May 5th is the beginning of Jeppesen cycle 1105 which runs through June
1. What might the connection be?
John
----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Miller John
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 11:52 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Garmin XM weather
For those using Garmin XM weather, Garmin put out a notice for a
mandatory OS update.
Garmin states that their XM weather units will no longer work after 5
May without the new update.
grumpy
N184JM
do not archive
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
For what it's worth, I have a Halon bottle mounted on top of the console with the
pin and handle in easy reach (right above the fuel pump).
I took aviation consumer's advice some time ago and removed the dry powder one
from my airplane (if you've ever discharged one of these in a small area, you'll
understand!).
I have a spring-loaded-closed, quarter-sized access hole in the tunnel cover.
Connected to the Halon nozzle is a flexible, plastic hose that I can quickly stick
the end through the hole and then squeeze the Halon handle discharging into
the tunnel.
grumpy
N184JM
On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:03 PM, John Cox wrote:
>
> Ted - several of your actions are Commendable. #1 you flew the aircraft
> to the landing site and walked away. The remaining builders and your
> underwriter should be appreciative. #2 You were willing to share and
> encourage other builders with the facts, when known. - Invaluable! #3
> You removed your EFIS screens and took steps to protect the residual
> value of what looks like a repairable incident. Thank you.
>
> Several questions came immediately to mind after considering those
> actions. Condition of Aluminum fuel tubing, flares and fittings? Fire
> Annunciation & Suppression systems? What would or could have happened
> if the tunnel had been composite rather than aluminum? Smoke evacuation
> and hoods. All will come out in time. This incident is the second most
> valuable RV-10 incident since the loss of Dan Lloyd and much will be
> gained from the post incident review.
>
> What comes to my mind is I seem to remember Scott Schmidt (#40111) as
> the first builder to provide side access panels to reach/inspect to the
> maze of tubing and to service fuel filters. I reflect on DLM (#40168)
> and his Halon (non dry powder) onboard suppression system. I now
> reflect on the comment of lowering the inherent pressure in the tunnel
> and venting fumes/smoke to the outside atmosphere and will await the
> flap switch query. Your Picasso pictures are stunning! Glad your around
> to share.
>
> Your summation should be reviewed by all builders.
>
> No modification to the VANS system.
> Limiting fire damage is critical.
> Fuel shutoff worked, as advertized.
> Your prop strike damage was that to just the "now needed" engine
> teardown or did it migrate into your avionics?
>
> As a Tech Advisor, no one wants to hear from us how often we find flares
> on tubing incorrectly manufactured or improperly torqued (under and
> over). Many builders have not added the test of their "Shutoff Valve to
> cut engine operation" and confirm continued function at each conditional
> inspection. This drives that action home. I am thrilled that you are
> reporting and I look forward to more news of the landing gear mounts,
> legs and what you find. I am willing to kick-in $100 for a N718PF Chang
> Relief Fund, cause your data will be worth far more than that to current
> aviators, current builders, future builders and loved ones. If I could
> bring Dan back I would spend even more.
>
> Geoff can you weigh in on steps that can be applied to mitigate flame
> damage to a composite tunnel under similar circumstance? Lizard skin
> a.k.a. Johnston (#40410) or Zetex heat shield batting or flame-resistant
> topcoat chemical application?
>
> John
> #40600
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted Chang
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:53 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Fire and off field landing
>
>
> I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this
> point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending
> the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends. Without
>
> opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened.
> Here are my observations:
>
> a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.
> b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.
> c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this
> particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal
> when I taxied out and on the take off.
> d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I
> still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane
> stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.
> e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked
> quickly and put it on the ground soon.
> f. After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small
> fire but limited to inside the tunnel.
> g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool
> boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B
> requirement).
> h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at
>
> around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up
> and I had a three point.
> i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and
> just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.
>
>
> Some facts:
>
> a. There is no modification on my fuel system.
> b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is
> the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the
> opening.
> c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. I
> do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.
> d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire
> department probably caused more damage than the fire.
>
> Ted
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: Tunnel Access From Below |
Phil, Wow! the Andair pump is a much cleaner install. If mine goes bad I'm
switching. Simpler plumbing and belly access look like winners to me.
Fortunately, in 4 filter inspections to date I have never found anything in
the filter. Before the belly access I always spilled a bit and left the
tunnel open to air out for a few hours. Now, through the bottom, there's no
problem and I inspect that area much more often.
I did leave a tee fitting near the valve in case I wanted to add a purge
valve later. Hot starts in hot country aren't always easy.
From: Phillip Perry
Here's how I attempted to tackle the filter access issue from above. I
think it makes it quite a bit easier when getting everything aligned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3mpcapeBA8
Phil
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: Garmin XM weather |
According to the download synopsis, it is all technical with XM weather transmission
and has nothing to do with Jepp cycles.
I glanced through the OS changes that scrolled by before doing the install. Once
you complete the install, you cannot see those anymore.
grumpy
do not archive
On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:22 PM, John Cox wrote:
>
> May 5th is the beginning of Jeppesen cycle 1105 which runs through June
> 1. What might the connection be?
>
> John
>
> ----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Miller John
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 11:52 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Garmin XM weather
>
>
> For those using Garmin XM weather, Garmin put out a notice for a
> mandatory OS update.
>
> Garmin states that their XM weather units will no longer work after 5
> May without the new update.
>
> grumpy
> N184JM
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Second fire in RV10 to date |
It took about one day to decide to order this product and another two hours
to install it. It is a no brainer.
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productI
d=30673&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=10107&su
bdeptNum=10534&classNum=10535
The alarm is load as hell even with a headset on and an engine running.
The key point=2C the alarm sounds before the fire happens!
JOhn
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Second fire in RV10 to date |
Ordered portable made by UEI today. $179+shpg. Mod cd200. I already have two smoke
hoods.
--------
Wayne Gillispie, A&P 5/93, PPC 10/08
Bldr# 40983 SB Started 12/1/09.
Fuselage Sec 46 Eng mount/Gear- 1359 hrs to date.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338349#338349
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
I am considering using the unused port on my Halon bottle to plumb a line
into the tunnel. WE are still discussing the Halon discharge in the cabin as
the tunnel has some big holes to cabin.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Miller John" <gengrumpy@aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fire and off field landing
>
> For what it's worth, I have a Halon bottle mounted on top of the console
> with the pin and handle in easy reach (right above the fuel pump).
>
> I took aviation consumer's advice some time ago and removed the dry powder
> one from my airplane (if you've ever discharged one of these in a small
> area, you'll understand!).
>
> I have a spring-loaded-closed, quarter-sized access hole in the tunnel
> cover.
>
> Connected to the Halon nozzle is a flexible, plastic hose that I can
> quickly stick the end through the hole and then squeeze the Halon handle
> discharging into the tunnel.
>
> grumpy
> N184JM
>
> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:03 PM, John Cox wrote:
>
>>
>> Ted - several of your actions are Commendable. #1 you flew the aircraft
>> to the landing site and walked away. The remaining builders and your
>> underwriter should be appreciative. #2 You were willing to share and
>> encourage other builders with the facts, when known. - Invaluable! #3
>> You removed your EFIS screens and took steps to protect the residual
>> value of what looks like a repairable incident. Thank you.
>>
>> Several questions came immediately to mind after considering those
>> actions. Condition of Aluminum fuel tubing, flares and fittings? Fire
>> Annunciation & Suppression systems? What would or could have happened
>> if the tunnel had been composite rather than aluminum? Smoke evacuation
>> and hoods. All will come out in time. This incident is the second most
>> valuable RV-10 incident since the loss of Dan Lloyd and much will be
>> gained from the post incident review.
>>
>> What comes to my mind is I seem to remember Scott Schmidt (#40111) as
>> the first builder to provide side access panels to reach/inspect to the
>> maze of tubing and to service fuel filters. I reflect on DLM (#40168)
>> and his Halon (non dry powder) onboard suppression system. I now
>> reflect on the comment of lowering the inherent pressure in the tunnel
>> and venting fumes/smoke to the outside atmosphere and will await the
>> flap switch query. Your Picasso pictures are stunning! Glad your around
>> to share.
>>
>> Your summation should be reviewed by all builders.
>>
>> No modification to the VANS system.
>> Limiting fire damage is critical.
>> Fuel shutoff worked, as advertized.
>> Your prop strike damage was that to just the "now needed" engine
>> teardown or did it migrate into your avionics?
>>
>> As a Tech Advisor, no one wants to hear from us how often we find flares
>> on tubing incorrectly manufactured or improperly torqued (under and
>> over). Many builders have not added the test of their "Shutoff Valve to
>> cut engine operation" and confirm continued function at each conditional
>> inspection. This drives that action home. I am thrilled that you are
>> reporting and I look forward to more news of the landing gear mounts,
>> legs and what you find. I am willing to kick-in $100 for a N718PF Chang
>> Relief Fund, cause your data will be worth far more than that to current
>> aviators, current builders, future builders and loved ones. If I could
>> bring Dan back I would spend even more.
>>
>> Geoff can you weigh in on steps that can be applied to mitigate flame
>> damage to a composite tunnel under similar circumstance? Lizard skin
>> a.k.a. Johnston (#40410) or Zetex heat shield batting or flame-resistant
>> topcoat chemical application?
>>
>> John
>> #40600
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted Chang
>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:53 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: Fire and off field landing
>>
>>
>> I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this
>> point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending
>> the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends. Without
>>
>> opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened.
>> Here are my observations:
>>
>> a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.
>> b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.
>> c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this
>> particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal
>> when I taxied out and on the take off.
>> d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I
>> still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane
>> stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.
>> e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked
>> quickly and put it on the ground soon.
>> f. After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small
>> fire but limited to inside the tunnel.
>> g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool
>> boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B
>> requirement).
>> h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at
>>
>> around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up
>> and I had a three point.
>> i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and
>> just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.
>>
>>
>> Some facts:
>>
>> a. There is no modification on my fuel system.
>> b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is
>> the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the
>> opening.
>> c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. I
>> do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.
>> d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire
>> department probably caused more damage than the fire.
>>
>> Ted
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
Can someone post a link to the picassa photos?
Shannon
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Miller John <gengrumpy@aol.com> wrote:
>
> For what it's worth, I have a Halon bottle mounted on top of the console
> with the pin and handle in easy reach (right above the fuel pump).
>
> I took aviation consumer's advice some time ago and removed the dry powder
> one from my airplane (if you've ever discharged one of these in a small
> area, you'll understand!).
>
> I have a spring-loaded-closed, quarter-sized access hole in the tunnel
> cover.
>
> Connected to the Halon nozzle is a flexible, plastic hose that I can
> quickly stick the end through the hole and then squeeze the Halon handle
> discharging into the tunnel.
>
> grumpy
> N184JM
>
> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:03 PM, John Cox wrote:
>
> >
> > Ted - several of your actions are Commendable. #1 you flew the aircraft
> > to the landing site and walked away. The remaining builders and your
> > underwriter should be appreciative. #2 You were willing to share and
> > encourage other builders with the facts, when known. - Invaluable! #3
> > You removed your EFIS screens and took steps to protect the residual
> > value of what looks like a repairable incident. Thank you.
> >
> > Several questions came immediately to mind after considering those
> > actions. Condition of Aluminum fuel tubing, flares and fittings? Fire
> > Annunciation & Suppression systems? What would or could have happened
> > if the tunnel had been composite rather than aluminum? Smoke evacuation
> > and hoods. All will come out in time. This incident is the second most
> > valuable RV-10 incident since the loss of Dan Lloyd and much will be
> > gained from the post incident review.
> >
> > What comes to my mind is I seem to remember Scott Schmidt (#40111) as
> > the first builder to provide side access panels to reach/inspect to the
> > maze of tubing and to service fuel filters. I reflect on DLM (#40168)
> > and his Halon (non dry powder) onboard suppression system. I now
> > reflect on the comment of lowering the inherent pressure in the tunnel
> > and venting fumes/smoke to the outside atmosphere and will await the
> > flap switch query. Your Picasso pictures are stunning! Glad your around
> > to share.
> >
> > Your summation should be reviewed by all builders.
> >
> > No modification to the VANS system.
> > Limiting fire damage is critical.
> > Fuel shutoff worked, as advertized.
> > Your prop strike damage was that to just the "now needed" engine
> > teardown or did it migrate into your avionics?
> >
> > As a Tech Advisor, no one wants to hear from us how often we find flares
> > on tubing incorrectly manufactured or improperly torqued (under and
> > over). Many builders have not added the test of their "Shutoff Valve to
> > cut engine operation" and confirm continued function at each conditional
> > inspection. This drives that action home. I am thrilled that you are
> > reporting and I look forward to more news of the landing gear mounts,
> > legs and what you find. I am willing to kick-in $100 for a N718PF Chang
> > Relief Fund, cause your data will be worth far more than that to current
> > aviators, current builders, future builders and loved ones. If I could
> > bring Dan back I would spend even more.
> >
> > Geoff can you weigh in on steps that can be applied to mitigate flame
> > damage to a composite tunnel under similar circumstance? Lizard skin
> > a.k.a. Johnston (#40410) or Zetex heat shield batting or flame-resistant
> > topcoat chemical application?
> >
> > John
> > #40600
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted Chang
> > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:53 AM
> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RV10-List: Fire and off field landing
> >
> >
> > I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this
> > point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending
> > the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends. Without
> >
> > opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened.
> > Here are my observations:
> >
> > a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.
> > b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.
> > c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this
> > particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal
> > when I taxied out and on the take off.
> > d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I
> > still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane
> > stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.
> > e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked
> > quickly and put it on the ground soon.
> > f. After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small
> > fire but limited to inside the tunnel.
> > g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool
> > boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B
> > requirement).
> > h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at
> >
> > around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up
> > and I had a three point.
> > i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and
> > just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.
> >
> >
> > Some facts:
> >
> > a. There is no modification on my fuel system.
> > b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is
> > the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the
> > opening.
> > c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. I
> > do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.
> > d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire
> > department probably caused more damage than the fire.
> >
> > Ted
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin XM weather |
When I called Garmin tech support yesterday, the prerecorded message stated
that the update was NOT mandatory for 696 users.
BTW, I complained about the price of the updates in relation to the cost of
just purchasing an IPAD and using foreflight and they gave me a 50% discount
code for the yearly subscription!
Shannon
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Miller John <gengrumpy@aol.com> wrote:
>
> According to the download synopsis, it is all technical with XM weather
> transmission and has nothing to do with Jepp cycles.
>
> I glanced through the OS changes that scrolled by before doing the install.
> Once you complete the install, you cannot see those anymore.
>
> grumpy
>
> do not archive
>
> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:22 PM, John Cox wrote:
>
> >
> > May 5th is the beginning of Jeppesen cycle 1105 which runs through June
> > 1. What might the connection be?
> >
> > John
> >
> > ----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Miller John
> > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 11:52 AM
> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RV10-List: Garmin XM weather
> >
> >
> > For those using Garmin XM weather, Garmin put out a notice for a
> > mandatory OS update.
> >
> > Garmin states that their XM weather units will no longer work after 5
> > May without the new update.
> >
> > grumpy
> > N184JM
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
Would someone mind posting a link to the picassa photos?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338351#338351
Message 32
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| Subject: | Using Matronics Site |
I am new to this site and am having some issues using it properly. I have signed
up to get messages via email and that seems to be working just fine. The problem
is that I have replied, via email, to some of them, but they never get
posted on here or get sent out to the list. Am I doing something wrong or are
you only able to reply via the website?
Thanks in advance
Shannon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338352#338352
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: Garmin XM weather |
When I called Garmin tech support yesterday, the prerecorded message stated that
the update was NOT mandatory for 696 users.
BTW, I complained about the price of the updates in relation to the cost of just
purchasing an IPAD and using foreflight and they gave me a 50% discount code
for the yearly subscription!
Shannon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338355#338355
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
https://picasaweb.google.com/tc1234c/4272011RV10Accident?authkey=Gv1sRgCPjmtviSyuKsQg#
----- Original Message -----
From: Shannon Hicks <civeng123@gmail.com>
To:<rv10-list@matronics.com>
Cc:
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fire and off field landing
Can someone post a link to the picassa photos?
Shannon
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Miller John <gengrumpy@aol.com> wrote:
For what it's worth, I have a Halon bottle mounted on top of the console with the
pin and handle in easy reach (right above the fuel pump).
I took aviation consumer's advice some time ago and removed the dry powder one
from my airplane (if you've ever discharged one of these in a small area, you'll
understand!).
I have a spring-loaded-closed, quarter-sized access hole in the tunnel cover.
Connected to the Halon nozzle is a flexible, plastic hose that I can quickly stick
the end through the hole and then squeeze the Halon handle discharging into
the tunnel.
grumpy
N184JM
On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:03 PM, John Cox wrote:
>
> Ted - several of your actions are Commendable. #1 you flew the aircraft
> to the landing site and walked away. The remaining builders and your
> underwriter should be appreciative. #2 You were willing to share and
> encourage other builders with the facts, when known. - Invaluable! #3
> You removed your EFIS screens and took steps to protect the residual
> value of what looks like a repairable incident. Thank you.
>
> Several questions came immediately to mind after considering those
> actions. Condition of Aluminum fuel tubing, flares and fittings? Fire
> Annunciation & Suppression systems? What would or could have happened
> if the tunnel had been composite rather than aluminum? Smoke evacuation
> and hoods. All will come out in time. This incident is the second most
> valuable RV-10 incident since the loss of Dan Lloyd and much will be
> gained from the post incident review.
>
> What comes to my mind is I seem to remember Scott Schmidt (#40111) as
> the first builder to provide side access panels to reach/inspect to the
> maze of tubing and to service fuel filters. I reflect on DLM (#40168)
> and his Halon (non dry powder) onboard suppression system. I now
> reflect on the comment of lowering the inherent pressure in the tunnel
> and venting fumes/smoke to the outside atmosphere and will await the
> flap switch query. Your Picasso pictures are stunning! Glad your around
> to share.
>
> Your summation should be reviewed by all builders.
>
> No modification to the VANS system.
> Limiting fire damage is critical.
> Fuel shutoff worked, as advertized.
> Your prop strike damage was that to just the "now needed" engine
> teardown or did it migrate into your avionics?
>
> As a Tech Advisor, no one wants to hear from us how often we find flares
> on tubing incorrectly manufactured or improperly torqued (under and
> over). Many builders have not added the test of their "Shutoff Valve to
> cut engine operation" and confirm continued function at each conditional
> inspection. This drives that action home. I am thrilled that you are
> reporting and I look forward to more news of the landing gear mounts,
> legs and what you find. I am willing to kick-in $100 for a N718PF Chang
> Relief Fund, cause your data will be worth far more than that to current
> aviators, current builders, future builders and loved ones. If I could
> bring Dan back I would spend even more.
>
> Geoff can you weigh in on steps that can be applied to mitigate flame
> damage to a composite tunnel under similar circumstance? Lizard skin
> a.k.a. Johnston (#40410) or Zetex heat shield batting or flame-resistant
> topcoat chemical application?
>
> John
> #40600
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted Chang
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:53 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Fire and off field landing
>
>
> I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this
> point the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending
> the time doing statements and answering inquiries from friends. Without
>
> opening the tunnel and cowling I can not say for sure what happened.
> Here are my observations:
>
> a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.
> b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.
> c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this
> particular flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal
> when I taxied out and on the take off.
> d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I
> still did not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane
> stopped the cabin was almost cleared of smoke.
> e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked
> quickly and put it on the ground soon.
> f. After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small
> fire but limited to inside the tunnel.
> g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool
> boxes in my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B
> requirement).
> h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at
>
> around 60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up
> and I had a three point.
> i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and
> just do it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.
>
>
> Some facts:
>
> a. There is no modification on my fuel system.
> b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is
> the quickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the
> opening.
> c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. I
> do have insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.
> d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire
> department probably caused more damage than the fire.
>
> Ted
>
>
==========
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Using Matronics Site |
At 01:14 PM 4/28/2011 Thursday, civengpe wrote:
>
>I am new to this site and am having some issues using it properly. I have signed
up to get messages via email and that seems to be working just fine. The
problem is that I have replied, via email, to some of them, but they never get
posted on here or get sent out to the list. Am I doing something wrong or are
you only able to reply via the website?
>
>
>Thanks in advance
>Shannon
Hi Shannon,
Welcome to the group! You should be able to just do a normal email "Reply" to
any message you receive from the RV10-List and it will automatically go back to
the whole List. Make sure that your email client is sending the replies to
"rv10-list@matronics.com" and not just the originator of the given post.
I checked the spam filter and didn't see that your email address had been blocked
for any reason.
Matt
-
Matt "Fox" Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log
http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left...
Message 36
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|
| Subject: | Re: Tunnel Access From Below |
Yeah, it is very simple and very clean. Almost too simple.
I keep waiting on someone who knows more than I do to say I missed something
, but that hasn't occurred yet. I do like the combo assembly and the engine
ering of the Andair pump vs AFP's (not that there is anything wrong with AFP
). Besides the recirculation feature, the Andair does not use vanes and ther
efore won't wear like the AFP. Instead it uses a series of expanding cavit
ies to create a siphon effect that moves fuel through it.
I like the setup a lot but I don't know what I don't know. Hopefully there i
s no obvious fuctionality missing from the system or any additional liabilit
y I created in the process. I am a believer that fewer fittings and less pl
umbing equates to a safer and more reliable system.
Phil
On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:25 PM, "Albert Gardner" <ibspud@roadrunner.com> wrote:
> Phil, Wow! the Andair pump is a much cleaner install. If mine goes bad I
=99m switching. Simpler plumbing and belly access look like winners to me
. Fortunately, in 4 filter inspections to date I have never found anything i
n the filter. Before the belly access I always spilled a bit and left the tu
nnel open to air out for a few hours. Now, through the bottom, there=99
s no problem and I inspect that area much more often.
>
> I did leave a tee fitting near the valve in case I wanted to add a purge v
alve later. Hot starts in hot country aren=99t always easy.
>
>
>
> From: Phillip Perry
>
> Here's how I attempted to tackle the filter access issue from above. I th
ink it makes it quite a bit easier when getting everything aligned.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3mpcapeBA8
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | West Coast Formation Clinic (WCFC) This Weekend... |
Any listers planning on attending the WCFC this weekend in Madera California?
I'm planning on being there with the 'ol RV-8. Come up and say 'hi' and introduce
yourself; I'd love to meet some of the Listers in person!
-
Matt "Fox" Dralle
RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"
http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log
http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel
Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Paint job is all that's left...
Message 38
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| Subject: | Second fire in RV10 to date |
One great solution.
John
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 12:29 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Second fire in RV10 to date
It took about one day to decide to order this product and another two
hours to install it. It is a no brainer.
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?produ
ctId=30673&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=101
07&subdep
tNum=10534&classNum=10535
The alarm is load as hell even with a headset on and an engine running.
The key point, the alarm sounds before the fire happens!
JOhn
Message 39
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| Subject: | Fire and off field landing |
I was! At work, we use Halon under high pressure nitrogen in a s.steel
accumulator bottle along with a squib. Your system could be quite
effective if directed to the most logical area around the fuel filter
and shutoff valve. Just pull the valve, no squib to worry about. Heat
rises so I am interested in steps which could be taken to provide
additional temperature protection to a composite cover. The one Picasso
shot Img. 1882 gives clarity to a "Sense of Urgency" with a hot seat.
There have been other posts on hydrocarbon sensors to alert when a
combustible source is sensed, temperature is rising above an established
threshold or other indicators. It was great that Ted responded quickly
and accurately to getting the aircraft on the ground.
"When the engine stops, the aircraft is on fire, or a medical emergency
requires immediate action, the obligation of the pilot is to get the
aircraft on the ground." Think of it as becoming immediately the
underwriter's aircraft. The pilots job is to be around to settle the
claim at a successful conclusion. A friend was lost 5 years ago leaving
OSH while attempting solutions "in-flight" and conscientiously passing
over 8 perfectly good airports. He made it up to the point of touchdown
in Madison, WI. Kudos to Ted regardless of what is going to be found as
the cause.
Fire Annunciation?
Fire Suppression?
Pilot Skill? We should all be discussing the various solutions and
pursue enhanced pilot training like LOBO.
John C.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DLM
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fire and off field landing
I am considering using the unused port on my Halon bottle to plumb a
line
into the tunnel. WE are still discussing the Halon discharge in the
cabin as
the tunnel has some big holes to cabin.
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Tunnel Access From Below |
A product called " Pig Mat" is an absorbent material which can be placed
under the valve before servicing. Less fumes to evacuate. Just through
it outside, in the trash, away from a combustible structure.
John
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Albert
Gardner
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 12:26 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Tunnel Access From Below
Phil, Wow! the Andair pump is a much cleaner install. If mine goes bad
I'm switching. Simpler plumbing and belly access look like winners to
me. Fortunately, in 4 filter inspections to date I have never found
anything in the filter. Before the belly access I always spilled a bit
and left the tunnel open to air out for a few hours. Now, through the
bottom, there's no problem and I inspect that area much more often.
I did leave a tee fitting near the valve in case I wanted to add a purge
valve later. Hot starts in hot country aren't always easy.
From: Phillip Perry
Here's how I attempted to tackle the filter access issue from above. I
think it makes it quite a bit easier when getting everything aligned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3mpcapeBA8
Phil
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Tunnel Access From Below |
The one thing I heard in the video was that pump was for the o-360. So the
Question is how much fuel will it pump?
Patrick Thyssen
N15PT
--- On Thu, 4/28/11, Phil Perry <philperry9@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Phil Perry <philperry9@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Tunnel Access From Below
Yeah, it is very simple and very clean. =C2-Almost too simple.
I keep waiting on someone who knows more than I do to say I missed somethin
g, but that hasn't occurred yet. =C2-I do like the combo assembly and the
engineering of the Andair pump vs AFP's (not that there is anything wrong
with AFP). Besides the recirculation feature, the Andair does not use vanes
and therefore won't wear like the AFP. =C2- Instead it uses a series of
expanding cavities to create a siphon effect that moves fuel through it.
I like the setup a lot but I don't know what I don't know. =C2-Hopefully
there is no obvious fuctionality missing from the system or any additional
liability I created in the process. =C2-I am a believer that fewer fittin
gs and less plumbing equates to a safer and more reliable system.
Phil
On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:25 PM, "Albert Gardner" <ibspud@roadrunner.com> wrote
:
Phil, Wow! the Andair pump is a much cleaner install. If mine goes bad I
=99m switching. Simpler plumbing and belly access look like winners to m
e. Fortunately, =C2-in 4 filter inspections to date I have never found an
ything in the filter. Before the belly access I always spilled a bit and le
ft the tunnel open to air out for a few hours. Now, through the bottom, the
re=99s no problem and I inspect that area much more often.I did leave
a tee fitting near the valve in case I wanted to add a purge valve later.
Hot starts in hot country aren=99t always easy. =C2-From: Phillip P
erryHere's how I attempted to tackle the filter access issue from above.=C2
- I think it makes it quite a bit easier when getting everything aligned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3mpcapeBA8
Phil
=C2- =0A=0A=0A
=========
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.c
om/Navigator?RV10-List
=========
ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
=========
http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n
=========
=0A
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
Good write up Ted. Glad your OK and sorry it happened. Good Luck=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Ted Chang <tc1234c@roadrunne
r.com>=0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thu, April 28, 2011 3:53:00 AM
=0ASubject: RV10-List: Fire and off field landing=0A=0A--> RV10-List messag
e posted by: Ted Chang <tc1234c@roadrunner.com>=0A=0AI thought I owe you, m
y fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this point the =0Aplane is stil
l sitting in the field and I have been spending the time doing =0Astatement
s and answering inquiries from friends.- Without opening the tunnel and
=0Acowling I can not say for sure what happened.- Here are my observation
s:=0A=0Aa. Fire was limited to the tunnel.=0Ab. It is a fuel leak inside th
e tunnel that fed into the fire.=0Ac. Fuel has been leaking some time befor
e the fire started on this particular =0Aflight (based on the high fuel flo
w). Fuel flow was normal when I taxied out and =0Aon the take off.=0Ad. The
smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I still did
=0Anot have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane stopped the
cabin =0Awas almost cleared of smoke.=0Ae. There is no time to think. When
my right leg felt warm I banked quickly and =0Aput it on the ground soon.
=0Af.- After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small
fire but =0Alimited to inside the tunnel.=0Ag. Dead stick is very hard to
do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool boxes in =0Amy baggage compartment
to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B requirement).=0Ah. I have not calibrate
d my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at around =0A60 kts. So, it
was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up and I had a =0Athree poin
t.=0Ai. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and
just do =0Ait. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.=0A
=0A=0ASome facts:=0A=0Aa. There is no modification on my fuel system.=0Ab.
The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is the
=0Aquickest way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the openin
g.=0Ac. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall.
I do have =0Ainsulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.=0Ad. Pr
opeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire department =0Apro
bably caused more damage than the fire.=0A=0A=0AI have to admit that for a
few seconds when the smoke came out and my leg felt =0Athe heat I had a tho
ught that I was in deep trouble (burn to death). I quickly =0Afocused on th
e tasks in front of me and tried to fly the airplane and solve the =0Aprobl
ems I was facing. From that point on there was no fear or regret.- After
I =0Acalled 911 and my insurance agent I got to walk down the hill, wait an
d think. =0AMy only negative thought was that my accident might negatively
impact a lot of =0Abuilders. I don't want to see anyone get disencouraged.
I am pretty sure that =0Awhat happened to me is not a design flaw, but a bu
ilder mistake. After I found =0Athe problem I will share with you so you ca
========================
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Tunnel Access From Below |
Pat,
Here is a thread that discusses it and includes Andair's response.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=63129
It's actually more of a function of line size and pressure relief valve cali
bration according to those who engineer this stuff.
Phil
On Apr 28, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Patrick Thyssen <jump2@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> The one thing I heard in the video was that pump was for the o-360. So the
Question is how much fuel will it pump?
> Patrick Thyssen
> N15PT
>
> --- On Thu, 4/28/11, Phil Perry <philperry9@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Phil Perry <philperry9@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Tunnel Access =46rom Below
> To: "rv10-list@matronics.com" <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Thursday, April 28, 2011, 4:03 PM
>
> Yeah, it is very simple and very clean. Almost too simple.
>
> I keep waiting on someone who knows more than I do to say I missed somethi
ng, but that hasn't occurred yet. I do like the combo assembly and the engi
neering of the Andair pump vs AFP's (not that there is anything wrong with A
FP). Besides the recirculation feature, the Andair does not use vanes and th
erefore won't wear like the AFP. Instead it uses a series of expanding cav
ities to create a siphon effect that moves fuel through it.
>
> I like the setup a lot but I don't know what I don't know. Hopefully ther
e is no obvious fuctionality missing from the system or any additional liabi
lity I created in the process. I am a believer that fewer fittings and less
plumbing equates to a safer and more reliable system.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:25 PM, "Albert Gardner" <ibspud@roadrunner.com> wrot
e:
>
>> Phil, Wow! the Andair pump is a much cleaner install. If mine goes bad I
=99m switching. Simpler plumbing and belly access look like winners to me
. Fortunately, in 4 filter inspections to date I have never found anything i
n the filter. Before the belly access I always spilled a bit and left the tu
nnel open to air out for a few hours. Now, through the bottom, there=99
s no problem and I inspect that area much more often.
>>
>> I did leave a tee fitting near the valve in case I wanted to add a purge v
alve later. Hot starts in hot country aren=99t always easy.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Phillip Perry
>>
>> Here's how I attempted to tackle the filter access issue from above. I t
hink it makes it quite a bit easier when getting everything aligned.
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3mpcapeBA8
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> =========
>> ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> =========
>> ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> =========
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribut
ion
>> =========================
=========
>>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
I got the airplane back to the hangar and took a look into the engine
compartment. Now I am pretty sure the cause of the fire is a loose fuel
line b-nut on the mechanical fuel pump. It is entirely my mistake. So,
my follow builders, make sure all your nuts and fittings are tightened.
You don't need to worry about the fire problem I experienced. A few
observations to follow:
a. The fuel flow down and under the tunnel. I did not know when the fire
started since it was burning underneath.
b. After the fire burnt through the tunnel floor, it sent up some smoke
smell.
c. Soon brake line and fuel line melted and the brake fluid produced a
lot of smoke.
d. After brake fluid was consumed there were little smoke.
e. Fire did burn up around the mechanical fuel pump and up around left
mag. Wire bundle attached to the engine mount on top the mag is charred.
f. Fire did not burn through the aluminum heat boxes. The sealant on top
of the heat boxes are gone but not the ones around them.
g. I used plastic bushing, RTV, then a thick coat of 3M fire barrier
sealant for firewall penetration. None of them get compromised.
h. I brought firewall insulator but have not installed yet. It would not
do anything for this particular case.
i. The insulator on the tunnel floor can not withstand the fire. Most of
them are gone with the floor.
j. Nose gear link (WD1016) folded and the rest of the nose gear are in
good shape.
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
Ted,
Thanks for the report. Any idea what sparked the fuel? I'd like to figure out
what the ignition source is.
Phil
On Apr 28, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Ted Chang <tc1234c@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
> I got the airplane back to the hangar and took a look into the engine compartment.
Now I am pretty sure the cause of the fire is a loose fuel line b-nut on
the mechanical fuel pump. It is entirely my mistake. So, my follow builders,
make sure all your nuts and fittings are tightened. You don't need to worry about
the fire problem I experienced. A few observations to follow:
>
> a. The fuel flow down and under the tunnel. I did not know when the fire started
since it was burning underneath.
> b. After the fire burnt through the tunnel floor, it sent up some smoke smell.
> c. Soon brake line and fuel line melted and the brake fluid produced a lot of
smoke.
> d. After brake fluid was consumed there were little smoke.
> e. Fire did burn up around the mechanical fuel pump and up around left mag. Wire
bundle attached to the engine mount on top the mag is charred.
> f. Fire did not burn through the aluminum heat boxes. The sealant on top of the
heat boxes are gone but not the ones around them.
> g. I used plastic bushing, RTV, then a thick coat of 3M fire barrier sealant
for firewall penetration. None of them get compromised.
> h. I brought firewall insulator but have not installed yet. It would not do anything
for this particular case.
> i. The insulator on the tunnel floor can not withstand the fire. Most of them
are gone with the floor.
> j. Nose gear link (WD1016) folded and the rest of the nose gear are in good shape.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
Good job and quick thinking. The best thing is that you are here to tell about
it.
do not archive.
On Apr 28, 2011, at 6:53 AM, Ted Chang wrote:
>
> I thought I owe you, my fellow RV-10 builder some information. At this point
the plane is still sitting in the field and I have been spending the time doing
statements and answering inquiries from friends. Without opening the tunnel
and cowling I can not say for sure what happened. Here are my observations:
>
> a. Fire was limited to the tunnel.
> b. It is a fuel leak inside the tunnel that fed into the fire.
> c. Fuel has been leaking some time before the fire started on this particular
flight (based on the high fuel flow). Fuel flow was normal when I taxied out
and on the take off.
> d. The smoke thinned out soon after I jettisoned the door. Although I still did
not have much in-flight visibility, by the time the airplane stopped the cabin
was almost cleared of smoke.
> e. There is no time to think. When my right leg felt warm I banked quickly and
put it on the ground soon.
> f. After I turn off the fuel (it did shut off) there were still small fire but
limited to inside the tunnel.
> g. Dead stick is very hard to do. RV-10 is nose heavy. I put two tool boxes in
my baggage compartment to keep the CG in the limit (my W&B requirement).
> h. I have not calibrated my stall warning system. The buzzer goes off at around
60 kts. So, it was not a full stall landing. The field slopes up and I had
a three point.
> i. Don't rely on emergency checklist. Remember the important steps and just do
it. There is no time and visibility to find the checklist.
>
>
> Some facts:
>
> a. There is no modification on my fuel system.
> b. The door is still good except the area where bolts go through. It is the quickest
way to get ride of the smoke and get visibility from the opening.
> c. The fire damage seems to be limited to around tunnel and firewall. I do have
insulation inside the tunnel floor and up on firewall.
> d. Propeller strike and powder fire extinguisher from the fire department probably
caused more damage than the fire.
>
>
> I have to admit that for a few seconds when the smoke came out and my leg felt
the heat I had a thought that I was in deep trouble (burn to death). I quickly
focused on the tasks in front of me and tried to fly the airplane and solve
the problems I was facing. From that point on there was no fear or regret. After
I called 911 and my insurance agent I got to walk down the hill, wait and
think. My only negative thought was that my accident might negatively impact
a lot of builders. I don't want to see anyone get disencouraged. I am pretty sure
that what happened to me is not a design flaw, but a builder mistake. After
I found the problem I will share with you so you can avoid this problem.
>
>
>
> Ted
>
>
>
>
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
Awesome data gathering Ted. Thanks so much for the follow-up.
When I do a final assembly I use the yellow torque seal on the
hardware. If it's missing, I know I've not tightened it down.
Back when I was a baby pilot, I bought the Grumman AA-1B I got my ticket
in. I took it back to the FBO I bought it from and they did the 'first'
annual ..... just before the fly-in at Lakeland FL (which started
Sun-n-Fun the next year). I started up to leave and I noticed a
handfull of folks running around giving me the 'cut off' sign. I shut
down and climbed out to find that they saw fluid spraying out from under
the cowl. When the FBO did the annual, the A&P pulled the B nut off the
inlet to the electric fuel pump to check and clean the screen. It went
back on finger tight, if that. I flew about 100 miles all total before
the problem was discovered. My Angels were at work. And that's the
last annual anyone else wrenched on my planes. I do all the
owner-assisted annuals and fix the squawks. MY A&P/IA does the paperwork.
Is the airframe undamaged?? Just gear and door???
Linn
On 4/28/2011 7:55 PM, Ted Chang wrote:
>
> I got the airplane back to the hangar and took a look into the engine
> compartment. Now I am pretty sure the cause of the fire is a loose
> fuel line b-nut on the mechanical fuel pump. It is entirely my
> mistake. So, my follow builders, make sure all your nuts and fittings
> are tightened. You don't need to worry about the fire problem I
> experienced. A few observations to follow:
>
> a. The fuel flow down and under the tunnel. I did not know when the
> fire started since it was burning underneath.
> b. After the fire burnt through the tunnel floor, it sent up some
> smoke smell.
> c. Soon brake line and fuel line melted and the brake fluid produced a
> lot of smoke.
> d. After brake fluid was consumed there were little smoke.
> e. Fire did burn up around the mechanical fuel pump and up around left
> mag. Wire bundle attached to the engine mount on top the mag is charred.
> f. Fire did not burn through the aluminum heat boxes. The sealant on
> top of the heat boxes are gone but not the ones around them.
> g. I used plastic bushing, RTV, then a thick coat of 3M fire barrier
> sealant for firewall penetration. None of them get compromised.
> h. I brought firewall insulator but have not installed yet. It would
> not do anything for this particular case.
> i. The insulator on the tunnel floor can not withstand the fire. Most
> of them are gone with the floor.
> j. Nose gear link (WD1016) folded and the rest of the nose gear are in
> good shape.
>
>
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
Just a guess but the mechanical pump is right above the hot exhaust, by not that
great a distance.
Thanks Ted, it's been informational! Glad you made it out fine. I had a fuel
fitting that was loose too, before first start, due to last minute hose removal
post-nut-check. It was on the fuel servo. Luckily I did a boost pump fuel
pressure test and found the dripping before I fired it up.
Even though I used torque seal all over on bolts, I think if for no other reason,
it would be worth doing it on the tunnel and fuel lines just to ensure that
you mark them after they are torqued. Could help prevent this type of failure.
I think I'll plan to do that next time I pull a fuel line.
Tim
On Apr 28, 2011, at 7:24 PM, Phil Perry <philperry9@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ted,
>
> Thanks for the report. Any idea what sparked the fuel? I'd like to figure out
what the ignition source is.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> On Apr 28, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Ted Chang <tc1234c@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I got the airplane back to the hangar and took a look into the engine compartment.
Now I am pretty sure the cause of the fire is a loose fuel line b-nut on
the mechanical fuel pump. It is entirely my mistake. So, my follow builders,
make sure all your nuts and fittings are tightened. You don't need to worry about
the fire problem I experienced. A few observations to follow:
>>
>> a. The fuel flow down and under the tunnel. I did not know when the fire started
since it was burning underneath.
>> b. After the fire burnt through the tunnel floor, it sent up some smoke smell.
>> c. Soon brake line and fuel line melted and the brake fluid produced a lot of
smoke.
>> d. After brake fluid was consumed there were little smoke.
>> e. Fire did burn up around the mechanical fuel pump and up around left mag.
Wire bundle attached to the engine mount on top the mag is charred.
>> f. Fire did not burn through the aluminum heat boxes. The sealant on top of
the heat boxes are gone but not the ones around them.
>> g. I used plastic bushing, RTV, then a thick coat of 3M fire barrier sealant
for firewall penetration. None of them get compromised.
>> h. I brought firewall insulator but have not installed yet. It would not do
anything for this particular case.
>> i. The insulator on the tunnel floor can not withstand the fire. Most of them
are gone with the floor.
>> j. Nose gear link (WD1016) folded and the rest of the nose gear are in good
shape.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
which flight was the accident flight? how many hours into Phase I?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Chang" <tc1234c@roadrunner.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 4:55 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Fire and off field landing
>
> I got the airplane back to the hangar and took a look into the engine
> compartment. Now I am pretty sure the cause of the fire is a loose fuel
> line b-nut on the mechanical fuel pump. It is entirely my mistake. So,
> my follow builders, make sure all your nuts and fittings are tightened.
> You don't need to worry about the fire problem I experienced. A few
> observations to follow:
>
> a. The fuel flow down and under the tunnel. I did not know when the fire
> started since it was burning underneath.
> b. After the fire burnt through the tunnel floor, it sent up some smoke
> smell.
> c. Soon brake line and fuel line melted and the brake fluid produced a
> lot of smoke.
> d. After brake fluid was consumed there were little smoke.
> e. Fire did burn up around the mechanical fuel pump and up around left
> mag. Wire bundle attached to the engine mount on top the mag is charred.
> f. Fire did not burn through the aluminum heat boxes. The sealant on top
> of the heat boxes are gone but not the ones around them.
> g. I used plastic bushing, RTV, then a thick coat of 3M fire barrier
> sealant for firewall penetration. None of them get compromised.
> h. I brought firewall insulator but have not installed yet. It would not
> do anything for this particular case.
> i. The insulator on the tunnel floor can not withstand the fire. Most of
> them are gone with the floor.
> j. Nose gear link (WD1016) folded and the rest of the nose gear are in
> good shape.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin XM weather |
Shannon,
On which subscription did you receive a 50% discount? And thanks for the
tip.
Robin
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Shannon Hicks <civeng123@gmail.com> wrote:
> When I called Garmin tech support yesterday, the prerecorded message stated
> that the update was NOT mandatory for 696 users.
>
> BTW, I complained about the price of the updates in relation to the cost of
> just purchasing an IPAD and using foreflight and they gave me a 50% discount
> code for the yearly subscription!
>
> Shannon
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Miller John <gengrumpy@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> According to the download synopsis, it is all technical with XM weather
>> transmission and has nothing to do with Jepp cycles.
>>
>> I glanced through the OS changes that scrolled by before doing the
>> install. Once you complete the install, you cannot see those anymore.
>>
>> grumpy
>>
>> do not archive
>>
>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:22 PM, John Cox wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > May 5th is the beginning of Jeppesen cycle 1105 which runs through June
>> > 1. What might the connection be?
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> > ----Original Message-----
>> > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Miller John
>> > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 11:52 AM
>> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> > Subject: RV10-List: Garmin XM weather
>> >
>> >
>> > For those using Garmin XM weather, Garmin put out a notice for a
>> > mandatory OS update.
>> >
>> > Garmin states that their XM weather units will no longer work after 5
>> > May without the new update.
>> >
>> > grumpy
>> > N184JM
>> >
>> > do not archive
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
I just log on and read some of your comments. Here are answers to a few questions.
The accident flight was my sixth flight and 8th time running the engine.
I estimated that I had 1.2 min from the time I noticed the smoke to a sharp bank
to land.
During that time I had to get the fire extinguisher, shut the fuel, open the door,
identify the landing site and of course fly the airplane.
There was really no time to get the checklist, put on the smoke hood (I have two
in my hangar that I brought for my
RV-9A first flight), and doing some other things. If you had a fuel fire the best
thing is to shut the fuel valve.
I never shut the fuel valve before and in a hurry I turn the selector to in between
left and right. I am not even sure it was completely shut.
But engine stopped and fire reduced. So it worked for me. Do make sure you practice
shut off the fuel. When the fire begins there won't be time
to figure it out. Fire extinguisher works only when you remove the supply of fuel.
Of course shut off the fuel means the fan in front is going to stop
and you must find a place to put the airplane down. My RV9A will glide a long distance
without power. 10 really drop like a rock when compared with 9.
I landed without flap not because I was thinking about the spark (fire already
started) problem, but I just did not have time to lower it.
It turned out good since my flaps are not damaged. There are a lot of factors that
made my emergency landing a success. Most of them I have no control of.
There are many things I did not do correctly, for example, I forgot to turn off
the electrical system. With the smoke and fire I was busy trying to
land the airplane and did not think about turning off switches. I was not analyzing
the situation and figuring out the solution, I was just reacting
to the situation with my instinct. If I say that I have the skill to handle an
emergency like this I will be lying to myself.
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: Fire and off field landing |
"If I say that I have the skill to handle an emergency like this I will be
lying to myself."
You did/do have the skill=2C you are alive and uninjured.
You will need to get your confidence back and get back on the horse.
Altitude is life. Unless it takes too much time to get on the ground and ju
mp out due to being burned...then a parachute is a good thing.
Good work!!!
From: tc1234c@roadrunner.com
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Fire and off field landing
I just log on and read some of your comments. Here are answers to a few que
stions.
The accident flight was my sixth flight and 8th time running the engine.
I estimated that I had 1.2 min from the time I noticed the smoke to a sharp
bank to land.
During that time I had to get the fire extinguisher=2C shut the fuel=2C ope
n the door=2C identify the landing site and of course fly the airplane.
There was really no time to get the checklist=2C put on the smoke hood (I h
ave two in my hangar that I brought for my
RV-9A first flight)=2C and doing some other things. If you had a fuel fire
the best thing is to shut the fuel valve.
I never shut the fuel valve before and in a hurry I turn the selector to in
between left and right. I am not even sure it was completely shut.
But engine stopped and fire reduced. So it worked for me. Do make sure you
practice shut off the fuel. When the fire begins there won't be time
to figure it out. Fire extinguisher works only when you remove the supply o
f fuel. Of course shut off the fuel means the fan in front is going to stop
and you must find a place to put the airplane down. My RV9A will glide a lo
ng distance without power. 10 really drop like a rock when compared with 9.
I landed without flap not because I was thinking about the spark (fire alre
ady started) problem=2C but I just did not have time to lower it.
It turned out good since my flaps are not damaged. There are a lot of facto
rs that made my emergency landing a success. Most of them I have no control
of.
There are many things I did not do correctly=2C for example=2C I forgot to
turn off the electrical system. With the smoke and fire I was busy trying t
o
land the airplane and did not think about turning off switches. I was not a
nalyzing the situation and figuring out the solution=2C I was just reacting
to the situation with my instinct. If I say that I have the skill to handle
an emergency like this I will be lying to myself.
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