---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/09/11: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:27 AM - Re: Re: Re: External Brake Lines - crack (John MacCallum) 2. 03:40 AM - Re: Re: External Brake Lines - crack (Rob Kermanj) 3. 05:25 AM - Main gear fire (kevino) 4. 07:13 AM - Re: Main gear fire (Tim Olson) 5. 07:27 AM - Re: Re: External Brake Lines - crack (Kelly McMullen) 6. 07:32 AM - Re: Main gear fire (Kelly McMullen) 7. 08:49 AM - Re: Main gear fire (kevino) 8. 08:54 AM - Re: Main gear fire (Linn Walters) 9. 09:44 AM - Re: Main gear fire (kevino) 10. 09:58 AM - Re: Main gear fire (Marcus Cooper) 11. 10:46 AM - Re: Main gear fire (John Cox) 12. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Tim Olson) 13. 01:07 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Dj Merrill) 14. 01:07 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Linn Walters) 15. 01:28 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Robin Marks) 16. 01:33 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Miller John) 17. 01:43 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Kelly McMullen) 18. 01:52 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Kelly McMullen) 19. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Kevin Belue) 20. 02:32 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Tim Olson) 21. 04:25 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Miller John) 22. 05:04 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (John Cumins) 23. 06:40 PM - Re: Re: Main gear fire (Dave Saylor) 24. 06:41 PM - Bose A20 Headset - NR Power Button - Panel Power (Matt Dralle) 25. 06:53 PM - Big Sky Air Race (Scott Schmidt) 26. 07:16 PM - brake bleeding (Linn Walters) 27. 08:11 PM - Re: Big Sky Air Race (Robin Marks) 28. 08:11 PM - Re: Bose A20 Headset - NR Power Button - Panel Power (Tim Olson) 29. 08:58 PM - Re: External Brake Lines - crack (William Curtis) 30. 09:24 PM - Re: Re: External Brake Lines - crack (Kelly McMullen) 31. 09:35 PM - Re: Re: External Brake Lines - crack (Linn Walters) 32. 09:53 PM - Re: Re: External Brake Lines - crack (William Curtis) 33. 10:11 PM - Re: Re: External Brake Lines - crack (Kelly McMullen) 34. 10:32 PM - Re: Big Sky Air Race (Scott Schmidt) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:27:04 AM PST US From: "John MacCallum" Subject: RE: Re: RV10-List: Re: External Brake Lines - crack G'day Evan, just thought I would say hello. Good to see another Aussie builder. I'm currently working on The brake lines myself and I was looking at the plans and thought that the solid lines going down The gear leg was not an ideal way to do it. Cheers John MacCallum Builder # 41016 VH-DUU -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of E & T Andrews Sent: Saturday, 9 July 2011 3:07 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: External Brake Lines - crack Many thanks everyone for your input. Vans should consider including the flexible hose lines in the RV10 kit... has this been raised with Vans before? all the best Evan Andrews VH-OSH Flying 154hrs -----Original Message----- From: rv10flyer Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 5:49 AM Subject: RV10-List: Re: External Brake Lines - crack 31 1/2" -3 hose with -4 straight fittings on each end. Like Tim said they know exactly what you need. Everything fit fine on mine. The two hoses from copilot master cylinders to reservoir tee fitting were 1" too long but they still worked. +1 for 5052-O fuel/brake lines. Van's 3003-O is going to be hauled off for scrap this winter after flying. 5052-O would have broken too...it just takes twice as long. Back to wheel pants...oh I love fiberglass. At least the end is near as my pile of parts is getting real small. Ted Chang's BIG West trip on VAF has really got me motivated now. Looking forward to some cool fall test flying. -------- Wayne Gillispie, A&P 5/93, PPC 10/08 Bldr# 40983 SB Started 12/1/09. Fuselage Sec 46 Eng mount/Gear- 1359 hrs to date. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345325#345325 ====== Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.17870) http://www.pctools.com/ ======= ====== Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.17870) http://www.pctools.com/ ====== ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:48 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: External Brake Lines - crack From: Rob Kermanj I have been reading about the solid break lines and I wanted to tell everyone about my experience that seems to be completely different than what the group is thinking. I have constructed my break lines solid all the way to the calipers on my RV6 with 1300 hrs of time and perhaps 800-900 landings and my RV10 with 530 hrs of time and 400 landings. Both planes have not had any failures. I think that if you use the right faring tool and take care not to have nicks and cracks, solid lines work just fine. After all, having less part count, in principal, is not a bad idea. Do not archive. On Jul 9, 2011, at 4:23 AM, John MacCallum wrote: > > G'day Evan, > just thought I would say hello. Good to see another Aussie builder. I'm > currently working on > The brake lines myself and I was looking at the plans and thought that the > solid lines going down > The gear leg was not an ideal way to do it. > > Cheers > > John MacCallum > Builder # 41016 > VH-DUU > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of E & T Andrews > Sent: Saturday, 9 July 2011 3:07 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: External Brake Lines - crack > > > Many thanks everyone for your input. Vans should consider including the > flexible hose lines in the RV10 kit... has this been raised with Vans > before? > > all the best > > Evan Andrews > > VH-OSH Flying 154hrs > > -----Original Message----- > From: rv10flyer > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 5:49 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Re: External Brake Lines - crack > > > 31 1/2" -3 hose with -4 straight fittings on each end. Like Tim said they > know exactly what you need. Everything fit fine on mine. The two hoses from > copilot master cylinders to reservoir tee fitting were 1" too long but they > still worked. > > +1 for 5052-O fuel/brake lines. Van's 3003-O is going to be hauled off for > scrap this winter after flying. 5052-O would have broken too...it just takes > > twice as long. > > Back to wheel pants...oh I love fiberglass. At least the end is near as my > pile of parts is getting real small. Ted Chang's BIG West trip on VAF has > really got me motivated now. Looking forward to some cool fall test flying. > > -------- > Wayne Gillispie, A&P 5/93, PPC 10/08 > Bldr# 40983 SB Started 12/1/09. > Fuselage Sec 46 Eng mount/Gear- 1359 hrs to date. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345325#345325 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ====== > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.17870) > http://www.pctools.com/ > ======= > > > > > > ====== > Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. > (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.17870) > http://www.pctools.com/ > ====== > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:24 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Main gear fire From: "kevino" Yesterday flew to Bangor Maine. Has a very long taxi for rw 15 from ga ramp. Near end lost left brake. Ac did several loops getting it stopped. Called ground who is over a mile away and told him I lost brake and he advised I was on fire. Evacuated all four people and grabbed fire ext. Fire was in full force with flames close to reaching wing. Used ext 2.5 halon and snuffed flame. Restarted in about 15 sec. Did it again. Looked up and crash was on their way. They were there in two minutes from ground telling me was on fire. Never knew I had fire until they told me. The fire ext and outstanding crash rescue saved the day. Lost the tire, wheel pant, brakes. Maine aero jumped on the airplane when I finally worked thru the red tape and got it towed in. Replaced tire, rebuilt brakes, pulled wheel pants and flew home last nite. An outstanding response from the crash crew, airport crew and Maine aero, ray lane and his whole crew. Cause was probably brake slightly dragging and needing to keep hitting left brake for directional control while taxiing several miles. Thought you all might be interested. The lack of awareness that a fire had started was frightening.without ground telling me I would not have got it in time not to mention an air force crash crew that was outstanding. Anybody have a spare left wheel pant? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345552#345552 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:34 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Main gear fire Sorry to hear about the fire and associated headaches. Can you say which brake fluid you used....the high temp stuff or the standard stuff? That would be good info. Tim On Jul 9, 2011, at 7:22 AM, "kevino" wrote: > > Yesterday flew to Bangor Maine. Has a very long taxi for rw 15 from ga ramp. Near end lost left brake. Ac did several loops getting it stopped. Called ground who is over a mile away and told him I lost brake and he advised I was on fire. Evacuated all four people and grabbed fire ext. Fire was in full force with flames close to reaching wing. Used ext 2.5 halon and snuffed flame. Restarted in about 15 sec. Did it again. Looked up and crash was on their way. They were there in two minutes from ground telling me was on fire. Never knew I had fire until they told me. The fire ext and outstanding crash rescue saved the day. Lost the tire, wheel pant, brakes. Maine aero jumped on the airplane when I finally worked thru the red tape and got it towed in. Replaced tire, rebuilt brakes, pulled wheel pants and flew home last nite. An outstanding response from the crash crew, airport crew and Maine aero, ray lane and his whole crew. > Cause was probably brake slightly dragging and needing to keep hitting left brake for directional control while taxiing several miles. > Thought you all might be interested. The lack of awareness that a fire had started was frightening.without ground telling me I would not have got it in time not to mention an air force crash crew that was outstanding. > Anybody have a spare left wheel pant? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345552#345552 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:48 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: External Brake Lines - crack From: Kelly McMullen Van's would consider adding flex lines about the same time as they consider stocking the correct nose wheel. They won't change the nose wheel even though the correct one is exactly the same price. Flex lines could add over $100 to the cost, especially if you include flex lines in place of the crummy nylon lines in the cabin. Somehow we have been deluded into wanting durability similar to certified aircraft................what a crazy idea. On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 10:06 PM, E & T Andrews wrote: Vans should consider including the > flexible hose lines in the RV10 kit... has this been raised with Vans > before? > > all the best > > Evan Andrews ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:29 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Main gear fire From: Kelly McMullen That would be Mil 83282 brake fluid as opposed to Mil 5606. On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 7:10 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > > Sorry to hear about the fire and associated headaches. Can you say which brake fluid you used....the high temp stuff or the standard stuff? That would be good info. > Tim > > > On Jul 9, 2011, at 7:22 AM, "kevino" wrote: > >> >> Yesterday flew to Bangor Maine. Has a very long taxi for rw 15 from ga ramp. Near end lost left brake. Ac did several loops getting it stopped. Called ground who is over a mile away and told him I lost brake and he advised I was on fire. Evacuated all four people and grabbed fire ext. Fire was in full force with flames close to reaching wing. Used ext 2.5 halon and snuffed flame. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:48 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire From: "kevino" 5606. Hadn't thought about that Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345587#345587 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:14 AM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Main gear fire What kind of brake line did you have attached to the wheel cylinder??? I'm guessing that the fire was due to a brake fluid leak ..... how did it escape??? Linn On 7/9/2011 8:22 AM, kevino wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "kevino" > > Yesterday flew to Bangor Maine. Has a very long taxi for rw 15 from ga ramp. Near end lost left brake. Ac did several loops getting it stopped. Called ground who is over a mile away and told him I lost brake and he advised I was on fire. Evacuated all four people and grabbed fire ext. Fire was in full force with flames close to reaching wing. Used ext 2.5 halon and snuffed flame. Restarted in about 15 sec. Did it again. Looked up and crash was on their way. They were there in two minutes from ground telling me was on fire. Never knew I had fire until they told me. The fire ext and outstanding crash rescue saved the day. Lost the tire, wheel pant, brakes. Maine aero jumped on the airplane when I finally worked thru the red tape and got it towed in. Replaced tire, rebuilt brakes, pulled wheel pants and flew home last nite. An outstanding response from the crash crew, airport crew and Maine aero, ray lane and his whole crew. > Cause was probably brake slightly dragging and needing to keep hitting left brake for directional control while taxiing several miles. > Thought you all might be interested. The lack of awareness that a fire had started was frightening.without ground telling me I would not have got it in time not to mention an air force crash crew that was outstanding. > Anybody have a spare left wheel pant? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345552#345552 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:15 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire From: "kevino" Aluminum lines. No evidence of leaking prior to fire. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345592#345592 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Main gear fire From: Marcus Cooper Very well handled by all and I'm glad things didn't get any worse than they did. This is by no means a dig and may not apply to your situation, but food for thought for all based on some experiences I've seen regarding using the brakes. I've seen a lot of folks ride the brakes lightly during long taxis to avoid getting fast. Having flown little airplanes with great big engines and small wheels/brakes I was taught long ago to let the airplane roll, then apply moderate braking periodically to keep the speed under control. Brakes will heat up a lot more when a little pressure is applied over a long time than periodic more aggressive braking. We used to have an academic slide show that showed two guys sitting in two kettles of water, one that had a big, rapid fire that while unpleasant flashed over quickly with no big deal, while the other simmered over a low continuous fire until it boiled. Probably an odd analogy but pretty good overall. I saw an Airbus captain taxiing behind a very slow airplane do the same thing just a few days ago and we had to delay takeoff because of brakes temps. In short, let the airplane get going without brakes as fast as you are comfortable then hit the brakes and slow to a crawl, release the brakes and start over again and your brakes will be much happier and will also be there for you when you need them. Marcus 40286 On Jul 9, 2011, at 8:22 AM, kevino wrote: > > Yesterday flew to Bangor Maine. Has a very long taxi for rw 15 from ga ramp. Near end lost left brake. Ac did several loops getting it stopped. Called ground who is over a mile away and told him I lost brake and he advised I was on fire. Evacuated all four people and grabbed fire ext. Fire was in full force with flames close to reaching wing. Used ext 2.5 halon and snuffed flame. Restarted in about 15 sec. Did it again. Looked up and crash was on their way. They were there in two minutes from ground telling me was on fire. Never knew I had fire until they told me. The fire ext and outstanding crash rescue saved the day. Lost the tire, wheel pant, brakes. Maine aero jumped on the airplane when I finally worked thru the red tape and got it towed in. Replaced tire, rebuilt brakes, pulled wheel pants and flew home last nite. An outstanding response from the crash crew, airport crew and Maine aero, ray lane and his whole crew. > Cause was probably brake slightly dragging and needing to keep hitting left brake for directional control while taxiing several miles. > Thought you all might be interested. The lack of awareness that a fire had started was frightening.without ground telling me I would not have got it in time not to mention an air force crash crew that was outstanding. > Anybody have a spare left wheel pant? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345552#345552 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:26 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Main gear fire From: "John Cox" Great information. The mass of our rotors absorbs converted energy in the form of heat created through friction from the pad contact. Sustained "deep" heat is worse than momentary higher concentrated heat. Energy transfer is nearly the same. Vented, drilled rotors and cooling ductwork can help. More mass, more pad contact area, use of less flammable brake fluid H-83282 versus H-5606 can only help. On Recips, lower rpm often also can lead to clinkers forming on the lower plugs. It is all about appropriate tradeoffs. John -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Cooper Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 11:56 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Main gear fire Very well handled by all and I'm glad things didn't get any worse than they did. This is by no means a dig and may not apply to your situation, but food for thought for all based on some experiences I've seen regarding using the brakes. I've seen a lot of folks ride the brakes lightly during long taxis to avoid getting fast. Having flown little airplanes with great big engines and small wheels/brakes I was taught long ago to let the airplane roll, then apply moderate braking periodically to keep the speed under control. Brakes will heat up a lot more when a little pressure is applied over a long time than periodic more aggressive braking. We used to have an academic slide show that showed two guys sitting in two kettles of water, one that had a big, rapid fire that while unpleasant flashed over quickly with no big deal, while the other simmered over a low continuous fire until it boiled. Probably an odd analogy but pretty good overall. I saw an Airbus captain taxiing ! behind a very slow airplane do the same thing just a few days ago and we had to delay takeoff because of brakes temps. In short, let the airplane get going without brakes as fast as you are comfortable then hit the brakes and slow to a crawl, release the brakes and start over again and your brakes will be much happier and will also be there for you when you need them. Marcus 40286 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:23 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire I'm FAR from an expert on the stuff, as you can tell by how Kelly remembers the milspec numbers by heart and I can't even do that....but here is what Wiki says: Mil-H-5606: Mineral base, flammable, fairly low flashpoint, usable from -65 F (-54 C) to 275 F (135 C), red color Mil-H-83282: Synthetic hydrocarbon base, higher flashpoint, self-extinguishing, backward compatible to -5606, red color, rated to -40 F (-40 C) degrees. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fluid Given that, it's pretty easy to see how brakes can heat up to over 275F on a long taxi. So with our castering nosewheel planes that kind of invite the bad habit of riding brakes, I think it's kind of a good idea to just switch it out. It's about $9 for plenty to do the whole plane and have a lot of spare. I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606. http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation/14018/css/14018_178.htm So that would be my first move now. I should add that to my page of things to definitely change or do. I think maybe we as a group should try to keep this info out there so that nobody uses 5606 at all....none of the fleet. A good friend of mine with an RV-10 had a wheel fire as well. Wrecked the tire and causes a bit of other damage. Just a no good situation. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD On 7/9/2011 10:45 AM, kevino wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "kevino" > > 5606. Hadn't thought about that > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:29 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire From: Dj Merrill On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this > link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606. Skygeek has some specs on it: http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid.html then click the "Specifications" tab. Flash point 218C, 424F Fire point 251C, 483F -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:29 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire Brake fires are caused by a failure of the system to contain the brake fluid. We know that cracking of the hard aluminum will allow fluid to escape. We also know that when brake pads are allowed to wear way down, the brake puck can extend out far enough so that fluid can escape around the O-ring. So far, we haven't heard how the fluid escaped or if "kevino" really knows. Years ago when the 'plastic' aircraft were all the rage, the failure was caused by the heat melting the plastic brake lines. Not so, in this case. So I started to search for some numbers. I found a document here: http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL+SPECS+%28MIL-H%29/MIL-H-83282C_6037/ which lists minimum flash point at 205 C (405 F) and minimum fire point at 245 C (473 F). Auto ignition is 345 C (653 F). Minimum pour point -55 C (-67 F). For 5606 minimum flash point at 82 C (180 F) (minimum fire point is missing). (Auto ignition is missing). Minimum pour point -60 C (-76 F). Different numbers from Tim's but still significantly different than 5606. So Tim's suggestion to go to 83282 is a good one. The 5606 spec was written in 1986 and 83282 in 1994. Linn On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > I'm FAR from an expert on the stuff, as you can tell by > how Kelly remembers the milspec numbers by heart and I > can't even do that....but here is what Wiki says: > > > Mil-H-5606: Mineral base, flammable, fairly low flashpoint, usable > from -65 F (-54 C) to 275 F (135 C), red color > > > Mil-H-83282: Synthetic hydrocarbon base, higher flashpoint, > self-extinguishing, backward compatible to -5606, red color, rated to > -40 F (-40 C) degrees. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fluid > > > Given that, it's pretty easy to see how brakes can heat up to over > 275F on a long taxi. So with our castering nosewheel planes that > kind of invite the bad habit of riding brakes, I think it's > kind of a good idea to just switch it out. It's about $9 > for plenty to do the whole plane and have a lot of spare. > I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this > link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606. > > http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation/14018/css/14018_178.htm > > So that would be my first move now. I should add that to my > page of things to definitely change or do. I think maybe we > as a group should try to keep this info out there so that > nobody uses 5606 at all....none of the fleet. A good friend > of mine with an RV-10 had a wheel fire as well. Wrecked the > tire and causes a bit of other damage. Just a no good situation. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD > > > On 7/9/2011 10:45 AM, kevino wrote: >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "kevino" >> >> 5606. Hadn't thought about that >> > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:39 PM PST US From: Robin Marks Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire When swapping over to the high temp fluid I recall one has to replace all the seals is in the system. Is this correct? How much effort is involved in that change? Robin -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:07 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this > link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606. Skygeek has some specs on it: http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid. html then click the "Specifications" tab. Flash point 218C, 424F Fire point 251C, 483F -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:38 PM PST US From: Miller John Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire For what it's worth, here is what I have been using in my bird since day one. Valvoline DEX/MERC automatic transmission fluid VV324, flash point 202=B0 C / 395=B0 F grumpy N184JM On Jul 9, 2011, at 1:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > I'm FAR from an expert on the stuff, as you can tell by > how Kelly remembers the milspec numbers by heart and I > can't even do that....but here is what Wiki says: > > > Mil-H-5606: Mineral base, flammable, fairly low flashpoint, usable from -65 =B0F (-54 =B0C) to 275 =B0F (135 =B0C), red color > > > Mil-H-83282: Synthetic hydrocarbon base, higher flashpoint, self-extinguishing, backward compatible to -5606, red color, rated to -40 =B0F (-40 =B0C) degrees. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fluid > > > Given that, it's pretty easy to see how brakes can heat up to over > 275F on a long taxi. So with our castering nosewheel planes that > kind of invite the bad habit of riding brakes, I think it's > kind of a good idea to just switch it out. It's about $9 > for plenty to do the whole plane and have a lot of spare. > I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this > link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606. > > http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation/14018/css/14018_178.htm > > So that would be my first move now. I should add that to my > page of things to definitely change or do. I think maybe we > as a group should try to keep this info out there so that > nobody uses 5606 at all....none of the fleet. A good friend > of mine with an RV-10 had a wheel fire as well. Wrecked the > tire and causes a bit of other damage. Just a no good situation. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD > > > > On 7/9/2011 10:45 AM, kevino wrote: >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "kevino" >> >> 5606. Hadn't thought about that >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:13 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire What is the difference in viscosity of ATF vs mil spec brake fluid? I'm fairly certain that mil spec brake fluid has some requirements on viscosity at various temps and other characteristics that make it more desirable for brake applications. If you need to top up the resevoir at an airport, you are pretty sure to find 5606, not so much the ATF or 83282. You know that 5606 and 83282 are proven to be compatible, even if you lower the flash point some. ATF saves you maybe $5 over the high price 83282? On 7/9/2011 1:29 PM, Miller John wrote: > For what it's worth, here is what I have been using in my bird since > day one. > > Valvoline DEX/MERC automatic transmission fluid VV324,flash point > 202C / 395F > > grumpy > > N184JM > > * > * ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:59 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire No seal replacement required. Remember 83282 is 100% compatible with 5606. If you want a slightly more durable seal you can go from MS seals to Viton. Don't know any reason to, other than it probably resists high temp better while is less flexible at low temps. If your mission is between ElK Mound and International Falls year round you probably want the standard 5606 and MS seals. The calipers are no more than popping the brake cylinder out of the caliper and changing the O-rings. At the master cylinders, you get to rebuild them...but they aren't ever going to see the temps the calipers do. All depends on how much effort you want to do, and what your normal mission profile is. Those that get OHare and Hartsfield taxi routes probably want the higher temps, like those of us on the southern fringe of the country. Do you want to go into procurement mode, get the fluid, get Viton O-rings after figuring out exact size needed, and so on, just like the rest of the build process? The mechanical work on the calipers is child's play. Draining your system should get you 90 percent of benefit, vs flushing system and then adding 83282. You get the fun of bleeding the system either way. On 7/9/2011 1:23 PM, Robin Marks wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Robin Marks > > When swapping over to the high temp fluid I recall one has to replace all > the seals is in the system. Is this correct? How much effort is involved > in that change? > > Robin > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill > Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:07 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill > > On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote: >> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this >> link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606. > Skygeek has some specs on it: > > http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid. > html > > then click the "Specifications" tab. > > Flash point 218C, 424F > Fire point 251C, 483F > > -Dj > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:18 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire From: Kevin Belue Another leak point is the piston seals - they leak when they get too hot. I had the same problem with brakes that got too hot while taxiing a long way with a cross wind. The brakes got very hot and leaked which smoked a lot, but no fire because I used the 83282 fluid. The original seals were bad due to the heat so I replaced them with viton seals which can stand a higher temperature. I would have had a fire if I had used the 5606 fluid..... Sent from my iPhone On Jul 9, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Linn Walters wrote: > > Brake fires are caused by a failure of the system to contain the brake fluid. We know that cracking of the hard aluminum will allow fluid to escape. We also know that when brake pads are allowed to wear way down, the brake puck can extend out far enough so that fluid can escape around the O-ring. So far, we haven't heard how the fluid escaped or if "kevino" really knows. Years ago when the 'plastic' aircraft were all the rage, the failure was caused by the heat melting the plastic brake lines. Not so, in this case. > > So I started to search for some numbers. I found a document here: http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL+SPECS+%28MIL-H%29/MIL-H-83282C_6037/ > which lists minimum flash point at 205 C (405 F) and minimum fire point at 245 C (473 F). Auto ignition is 345 C (653 F). Minimum pour point -55 C (-67 F). > For 5606 minimum flash point at 82 C (180 F) (minimum fire point is missing). (Auto ignition is missing). Minimum pour point -60 C (-76 F). > > Different numbers from Tim's but still significantly different than 5606. > > So Tim's suggestion to go to 83282 is a good one. > The 5606 spec was written in 1986 and 83282 in 1994. > > Linn > > > > > On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote: >> >> I'm FAR from an expert on the stuff, as you can tell by >> how Kelly remembers the milspec numbers by heart and I >> can't even do that....but here is what Wiki says: >> >> >> Mil-H-5606: Mineral base, flammable, fairly low flashpoint, usable from -65 F (-54 C) to 275 F (135 C), red color >> >> >> Mil-H-83282: Synthetic hydrocarbon base, higher flashpoint, self-extinguishing, backward compatible to -5606, red color, rated to -40 F (-40 C) degrees. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fluid >> >> >> Given that, it's pretty easy to see how brakes can heat up to over >> 275F on a long taxi. So with our castering nosewheel planes that >> kind of invite the bad habit of riding brakes, I think it's >> kind of a good idea to just switch it out. It's about $9 >> for plenty to do the whole plane and have a lot of spare. >> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this >> link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606. >> >> http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation/14018/css/14018_178.htm >> >> So that would be my first move now. I should add that to my >> page of things to definitely change or do. I think maybe we >> as a group should try to keep this info out there so that >> nobody uses 5606 at all....none of the fleet. A good friend >> of mine with an RV-10 had a wheel fire as well. Wrecked the >> tire and causes a bit of other damage. Just a no good situation. >> >> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD >> >> >> >> On 7/9/2011 10:45 AM, kevino wrote: >>> --> RV10-List message posted by: "kevino" >>> >>> 5606. Hadn't thought about that >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:35 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire I didn't change my seals in the whole system. I DID go to viton seals in the caliper itself though. They're cheap. Tim On Jul 9, 2011, at 3:23 PM, Robin Marks wrote: > > When swapping over to the high temp fluid I recall one has to replace all > the seals is in the system. Is this correct? How much effort is involved > in that change? > > Robin > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill > Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:07 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire > > > On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote: >> >> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this >> link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606. > > Skygeek has some specs on it: > > http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid. > html > > then click the "Specifications" tab. > > Flash point 218C, 424F > Fire point 251C, 483F > > -Dj > > -- > Dj Merrill - N1JOV > Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ > Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:43 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire From: Miller John And bleed from the bottom up!!! Far easier and a whole lot cleaner way to do it. Just get a qt pump-type oil can with flex tip on it, get some plastic tubing that fits over the bleed valve, put an overflow tube from the reservoir with a can to collect it, and pump away. Can't believe it took me so long to figure that one out........-:) grumpy N184JM On Jul 9, 2011, at 3:50 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > No seal replacement required. Remember 83282 is 100% compatible with 5606. If you want a slightly more durable seal you can go from MS seals to Viton. Don't know any reason to, other than it probably resists high temp better while is less flexible at low temps. If your mission is between ElK Mound and International Falls year round you probably want the standard 5606 and MS seals. > The calipers are no more than popping the brake cylinder out of the caliper and changing the O-rings. At the master cylinders, you get to rebuild them...but they aren't ever going to see the temps the calipers do. > All depends on how much effort you want to do, and what your normal mission profile is. Those that get OHare and Hartsfield taxi routes probably want the higher temps, like those of us on the southern fringe of the country. > Do you want to go into procurement mode, get the fluid, get Viton O-rings after figuring out exact size needed, and so on, just like the rest of the build process? The mechanical work on the calipers is child's play. Draining your system should get you 90 percent of benefit, vs flushing system and then adding 83282. You get the fun of bleeding the system either way. > > > On 7/9/2011 1:23 PM, Robin Marks wrote: >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Robin Marks >> >> When swapping over to the high temp fluid I recall one has to replace all >> the seals is in the system. Is this correct? How much effort is involved >> in that change? >> >> Robin >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill >> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:07 PM >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire >> >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill >> >> On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote: >>> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this >>> link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606. >> Skygeek has some specs on it: >> >> http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid. >> html >> >> then click the "Specifications" tab. >> >> Flash point 218C, 424F >> Fire point 251C, 483F >> >> -Dj >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:53 PM PST US From: "John Cumins" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire Robin No seal changes are required to go to 83232 fluid. In 1985 when I was a crew chief in the air force on the c-5 we flushed and changed out all planes to 83232 hyd fluid with out any seals changed. They can even be mixed together if in a tight spot but I would not recommend it. I will be swapping out our Saratoga in the next oil change before we put the wheel [ants back on after the annual. John Cumins President 707-425-7100 707-425-7576 Fax -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:24 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire When swapping over to the high temp fluid I recall one has to replace all the seals is in the system. Is this correct? How much effort is involved in that change? Robin -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:07 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this link says > it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606. Skygeek has some specs on it: http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid. html then click the "Specifications" tab. Flash point 218C, 424F Fire point 251C, 483F -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:41 PM PST US From: Dave Saylor Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire I've had mixed results with the pump-can bleeder but we still use one in the field. I think the problem is that without sufficient flow, you can still trap bubbles at the top of an arced tube. The fluid just flows under the bubble. For the shop, we built a brake bleeder out of a power steering pump. We turn it with a drill motor. Added a return like John said, a reservoir and a little plumbing. It works like a champ at about 20-30 psi. Dave Saylor AirCrafters 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 95076 831-722-9141 Shop 831-750-0284 Cell On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Miller John wrote: > > And bleed from the bottom up!!! > > Far easier and a whole lot cleaner way to do it. > > Just get a qt pump-type oil can with flex tip on it, get some plastic tubing that fits over the bleed valve, put an overflow tube from the reservoir with a can to collect it, and pump away. > > Can't believe it took me so long to figure that one out........-:) > > grumpy > N184JM > > > On Jul 9, 2011, at 3:50 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > >> >> No seal replacement required. Remember 83282 is 100% compatible with 5606. If you want a slightly more durable seal you can go from MS seals to Viton. Don't know any reason to, other than it probably resists high temp better while is less flexible at low temps. If your mission is between ElK Mound and International Falls year round you probably want the standard 5606 and MS seals. >> The calipers are no more than popping the brake cylinder out of the caliper and changing the O-rings. At the master cylinders, you get to rebuild them...but they aren't ever going to see the temps the calipers do. >> All depends on how much effort you want to do, and what your normal mission profile is. Those that get OHare and Hartsfield taxi routes probably want the higher temps, like those of us on the southern fringe of the country. >> Do you want to go into procurement mode, get the fluid, get Viton O-rings after figuring out exact size needed, and so on, just like the rest of the build process? The mechanical work on the calipers is child's play. Draining your system should get you 90 percent of benefit, vs flushing system and then adding 83282. You get the fun of bleeding the system either way. >> >> >> On 7/9/2011 1:23 PM, Robin Marks wrote: >>> >>> When swapping over to the high temp fluid I recall one has to replace all >>> the seals is in the system. Is this correct? How much effort is involved >>> in that change? >>> >>> Robin >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill >>> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:07 PM >>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire >>> >>> >>> On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote: >>>> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this >>>> link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606. >>> Skygeek has some specs on it: >>> >>> http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid. >>> html >>> >>> then click the "Specifications" tab. >>> >>> Flash point 218C, 424F >>> Fire point 251C, 483F >>> >>> -Dj >>> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:33 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV10-List: Bose A20 Headset - NR Power Button - Panel Power Dear Listers, I bought a couple pairs of the new Bose A20's for the RV-8 and they are very nice. NR is better than the Bose X's and they seem to fit my head a little better too. But I quickly discovered that with the A20's you now have to hit the NR Power button *every time* you start the aircraft even if you have them panel powered. The older Bose X headsets have a slide switch for the NR power and so you can just put the slide switch in the On position and not worry about it. I really didn't like having to turn the NR on all the time and having to remind my passengers about it, so I came up with a modification that will automatically turn the NR on when panel power is applied. Its pretty simple, but requires some special tools. Its completely self-contained inside the Control Module and works great. The modification is generally only for installations that are panel-powered, but you could do the modification to a unit that is normally battery powered with no adverse effect. With the modification, the NR Power button will work normally in battery power installations. I created web page on the procedure including step-by-step photos and instructions. Feedback is welcome. http://www.matronics.com/BoseA20AutoOnModification/ Matt - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap... ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:26 PM PST US From: Scott Schmidt Subject: RV10-List: Big Sky Air Race Sean and I just got back from Three Forks, Montana and had a great time running in the race up there today. We represented our RV-10 group pretty good, I think. There were about 30 planes running in the race and the weather was perfect, the Sacajawea Hotel there is great with a very good restaurant and they did a good job organizing everything. If you are ever in the area it would be a fun place to stop over for a night and enjoy the quaint town and small town airport. It was a 126nm course and pretty flat. Sean's plane is still very new and I was surprised at how close we both were but we do have the same engine and prop. He is still breaking in the engine and we have some tweaking to do on the ailerons. I averaged 204.6 mph and Sean was 203.8. I don't have all the results but the -10 was right there and sometimes faster than the -6's, -7's and -8's. I'll do it again. Scott Schmidt ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:19 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: RV10-List: brake bleeding I made a 'bottle' out of 2" PVC. Pipe plug in one end to fill with, cap on the other. Two holes below the pipe plug end. Plastic hose through one hole down to the bottom where the cap is and the other end goes on the bleed fitting. My air gun goes into the other hole. Bleeds almost any brake system quickly! Linn ..... got hand cramps from pumping that oil can!!! On 7/9/2011 9:36 PM, Dave Saylor wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Dave Saylor > > I've had mixed results with the pump-can bleeder but we still use one > in the field. I think the problem is that without sufficient flow, > you can still trap bubbles at the top of an arced tube. The fluid > just flows under the bubble. > > For the shop, we built a brake bleeder out of a power steering pump. > We turn it with a drill motor. Added a return like John said, a > reservoir and a little plumbing. It works like a champ at about 20-30 > psi. > > Dave Saylor > AirCrafters > 140 Aviation Way > Watsonville, CA 95076 > 831-722-9141 Shop > 831-750-0284 Cell > > > On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Miller John wrote: >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Miller John >> >> And bleed from the bottom up!!! >> >> Far easier and a whole lot cleaner way to do it. >> >> Just get a qt pump-type oil can with flex tip on it, get some plastic tubing that fits over the bleed valve, put an overflow tube from the reservoir with a can to collect it, and pump away. >> >> Can't believe it took me so long to figure that one out........-:) >> >> grumpy >> N184JM >> >> >> On Jul 9, 2011, at 3:50 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >> >>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen >>> >>> No seal replacement required. Remember 83282 is 100% compatible with 5606. If you want a slightly more durable seal you can go from MS seals to Viton. Don't know any reason to, other than it probably resists high temp better while is less flexible at low temps. If your mission is between ElK Mound and International Falls year round you probably want the standard 5606 and MS seals. >>> The calipers are no more than popping the brake cylinder out of the caliper and changing the O-rings. At the master cylinders, you get to rebuild them...but they aren't ever going to see the temps the calipers do. >>> All depends on how much effort you want to do, and what your normal mission profile is. Those that get OHare and Hartsfield taxi routes probably want the higher temps, like those of us on the southern fringe of the country. >>> Do you want to go into procurement mode, get the fluid, get Viton O-rings after figuring out exact size needed, and so on, just like the rest of the build process? The mechanical work on the calipers is child's play. Draining your system should get you 90 percent of benefit, vs flushing system and then adding 83282. You get the fun of bleeding the system either way. >>> >>> >>> On 7/9/2011 1:23 PM, Robin Marks wrote: >>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Robin Marks >>>> >>>> When swapping over to the high temp fluid I recall one has to replace all >>>> the seals is in the system. Is this correct? How much effort is involved >>>> in that change? >>>> >>>> Robin >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com >>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj Merrill >>>> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 1:07 PM >>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com >>>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Main gear fire >>>> >>>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill >>>> >>>> On 7/9/2011 2:50 PM, Tim Olson wrote: >>>>> I can't find the flash point on the 83282 stuff, but, this >>>>> link says it's over 200F HIGHER than the 5606. >>>> Skygeek has some specs on it: >>>> >>>> http://www.skygeek.com/royco-782-synthetic-fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluid. >>>> html >>>> >>>> then click the "Specifications" tab. >>>> >>>> Flash point 218C, 424F >>>> Fire point 251C, 483F >>>> >>>> -Dj >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:08 PM PST US From: Robin Marks Subject: RE: RV10-List: Big Sky Air Race Scott, What general engine settings are you flying in a race like that. MP (max I assume), RPM? At what ALT is the race conducted plus fuel burn when racing? Thanks, Robin *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Scott Schmidt *Sent:* Saturday, July 09, 2011 6:51 PM *To:* RV-10 List *Subject:* RV10-List: Big Sky Air Race Sean and I just got back from Three Forks, Montana and had a great time running in the race up there today. We represented our RV-10 group pretty good, I think. There were about 30 planes running in the race and the weather was perfect, the Sacajawea Hotel there is great with a very good restaurant and they did a good job organizing everything. If you are ever in the area it would be a fun place to stop over for a night and enjoy the quaint town and small town airport. It was a 126nm course and pretty flat. Sean's plane is still very new and I was surprised at how close we both were but we do have the same engine and prop. He is still breaking in the engine and we have some tweaking to do on the ailerons. I averaged 204.6 mph and Sean was 203.8. I don't have all the results but the -10 was right there and sometimes faster than the -6's, -7's and -8's. I'll do it again. Scott Schmidt * * * * * * ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:08 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Bose A20 Headset - NR Power Button - Panel Power Matt, you rock! That's awesome that you found a way to do this. I'll definitely be taking at least one of mine apart and trying this. If it goes well, I'll do 'em all. It's the single thing I wish they had a dip switch for that you could enable, and you got the answer. Thanks for the great write-up. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive On 7/9/2011 8:38 PM, Matt Dralle wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Matt Dralle > > > Dear Listers, > > I bought a couple pairs of the new Bose A20's for the RV-8 and they > are very nice. NR is better than the Bose X's and they seem to fit > my head a little better too. > > But I quickly discovered that with the A20's you now have to hit the > NR Power button *every time* you start the aircraft even if you have > them panel powered. The older Bose X headsets have a slide switch for > the NR power and so you can just put the slide switch in the On > position and not worry about it. > > I really didn't like having to turn the NR on all the time and having > to remind my passengers about it, so I came up with a modification > that will automatically turn the NR on when panel power is applied. > Its pretty simple, but requires some special tools. Its completely > self-contained inside the Control Module and works great. The > modification is generally only for installations that are > panel-powered, but you could do the modification to a unit that is > normally battery powered with no adverse effect. With the > modification, the NR Power button will work normally in battery power > installations. > > I created web page on the procedure including step-by-step photos and > instructions. Feedback is welcome. > > http://www.matronics.com/BoseA20AutoOnModification/ > > Matt > > > - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" http://www.mattsrv8.com > - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log > http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing > Mishap... > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:56 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: External Brake Lines - crack From: William Curtis Kelly, I beg to differ but in certified aircraft that I am familiar, (Cessna) flexible lines are used only where absolutely necessary. The preference by certified aircraft designers is to use hard lines as much as practicable if only so that there is no life limit on the line. This was driven home to me when I stood on the rear door of a C-17 and looked up at all the hydraulic plumbing. With all those movable parts and doors, NOT a single flexible line --not even at the actuators. Where the line required movement, solid lines with mechanical (banjo style) flexible fluid couplings were used. I took a picture of it but I have to find it. I know some Pipers use a short flexible line between their fuel tanks and the fuselage fuel coupling. However on the Cardinal that; when in doubt I ask "what would Cessna do" just as with Vans, flexible lines are kept to a minimum and used only where absolutely necessary. In the Cardinal fuel system, there are NO flexible lines. In the Cardinal electro-hydraulic gear system there are only four short flexible lines at the nose and main gear actuators. In the retractable gear Cardinal, the brake line in the main gear is a solid line. A the top of the RG brake line is a solid mechanical swivel fitting and only on the lower portion by the wheel is a short easily replaced flexible line used--remember this is a retractable gear aircraft. The point in all this is that hard lines ARE the standard in the certified and military world in most areas and flexible lines are the exception. Flexible lines are used only where hard lines are impractical or expensive such as the movable mechanical (banjo type) fluid connectors. Just an alternative $0.02. William N237VX On Jul 9, 2011, at 10:25, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > Van's would consider adding flex lines about the same time as they > consider stocking the correct nose wheel. They won't change the nose > wheel even though the correct one is exactly the same price. Flex > lines could add over $100 to the cost, especially if you include flex > lines in place of the crummy nylon lines in the cabin. Somehow we have > been deluded into wanting durability similar to certified > aircraft................what a crazy idea. > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 10:06 PM, E & T Andrews wrote: > Vans should consider including the >> flexible hose lines in the RV10 kit... has this been raised with Vans >> before? >> >> all the best >> >> Evan Andrews ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:28 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: External Brake Lines - crack You will find that the vast majority of Cleveland brakes are connected via flex lines. Yes, there may be hard lines to somewhere nearby, but the movement of the gear leg and the movement of the caliper is a flex line. For example, the brake lines on my Mooney are flexible from the center of the gear well down the gear leg to the wheel, all flex line. While most fixed gear Cessnas had hard line down the gear leg, the connection to the caliper usually was flex line if Cleveland or McCauley brakes were used, because the caliper moves. With Goodyear brakes there was hard line all the way, because the caliper was fixed and the disk moved inside the wheel. Fuel lines are a combination. Most Cessnas (with wing struts) have flex line between the wing and the fuselage. My Mooney has flex line between the wing fuel pickup and the hard line to the selector. Where there is movement or vibration, like in the engine compartment, flex line is used. Where there are hard lines, they are made of higher quality tubing on production equipment, not out of soft line with hand tools. The only place I have seen tubing of similar low quality is the oil drainback tubes on Lycoming engines. I wouldn't call a C-17 a certified aircraft, because like most military only aircraft, it isn't. They have very different missions and different maintenance practices, not to mention vastly different pricing. On 7/9/2011 8:56 PM, William Curtis wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: William Curtis > > Kelly, > > > I beg to differ but in certified aircraft that I am familiar, (Cessna) > flexible lines are used only where absolutely necessary. The > preference by certified aircraft designers is to use hard lines as > much as practicable if only so that there is no life limit on the > line. > > This was driven home to me when I stood on the rear door of a C-17 and > looked up at all the hydraulic plumbing. With all those movable parts > and doors, NOT a single flexible line --not even at the actuators. > Where the line required movement, solid lines with mechanical (banjo > style) flexible fluid couplings were used. I took a picture of it but > I have to find it. > > I know some Pipers use a short flexible line between their fuel tanks > and the fuselage fuel coupling. However on the Cardinal that; when in > doubt I ask "what would Cessna do" just as with Vans, flexible lines > are kept to a minimum and used only where absolutely necessary. > > In the Cardinal fuel system, there are NO flexible lines. In the > Cardinal electro-hydraulic gear system there are only four short > flexible lines at the nose and main gear actuators. In the > retractable gear Cardinal, the brake line in the main gear is a solid > line. A the top of the RG brake line is a solid mechanical swivel > fitting and only on the lower portion by the wheel is a short easily > replaced flexible line used--remember this is a retractable gear > aircraft. > > The point in all this is that hard lines ARE the standard in the > certified and military world in most areas and flexible lines are the > exception. Flexible lines are used only where hard lines are > impractical or expensive such as the movable mechanical (banjo type) > fluid connectors. > > Just an alternative $0.02. > > William > N237VX > > > On Jul 9, 2011, at 10:25, Kelly McMullen wrote: > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen >> >> Van's would consider adding flex lines about the same time as they >> consider stocking the correct nose wheel. They won't change the nose >> wheel even though the correct one is exactly the same price. Flex >> lines could add over $100 to the cost, especially if you include flex >> lines in place of the crummy nylon lines in the cabin. Somehow we have >> been deluded into wanting durability similar to certified >> aircraft................what a crazy idea. >> >> On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 10:06 PM, E& T Andrews wrote: >> Vans should consider including the >>> flexible hose lines in the RV10 kit... has this been raised with Vans >>> before? >>> >>> all the best >>> >>> Evan Andrews > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:06 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: External Brake Lines - crack I think the decision ..... flex or hard ..... probably boiled down to weight and cost, and the hard lines win on both counts. Hard line failures on certified aircraft happen..... but mostly with many, many hours on them. I have no data, but I'd bet money on the RV brake line failures on poor flaring technique, or cheap equipment. Scoring the tubing with the flaring tool clamp is just asking for a stress fracture. For me it's really difficult to get a flare I'm happy with. I had to clean up my Rolo-Flair dies because of marks on the tubing. Linn On 7/9/2011 11:56 PM, William Curtis wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: William Curtis > > Kelly, > > > I beg to differ but in certified aircraft that I am familiar, (Cessna) > flexible lines are used only where absolutely necessary. The > preference by certified aircraft designers is to use hard lines as > much as practicable if only so that there is no life limit on the > line. > > This was driven home to me when I stood on the rear door of a C-17 and > looked up at all the hydraulic plumbing. With all those movable parts > and doors, NOT a single flexible line --not even at the actuators. > Where the line required movement, solid lines with mechanical (banjo > style) flexible fluid couplings were used. I took a picture of it but > I have to find it. > > I know some Pipers use a short flexible line between their fuel tanks > and the fuselage fuel coupling. However on the Cardinal that; when in > doubt I ask "what would Cessna do" just as with Vans, flexible lines > are kept to a minimum and used only where absolutely necessary. > > In the Cardinal fuel system, there are NO flexible lines. In the > Cardinal electro-hydraulic gear system there are only four short > flexible lines at the nose and main gear actuators. In the > retractable gear Cardinal, the brake line in the main gear is a solid > line. A the top of the RG brake line is a solid mechanical swivel > fitting and only on the lower portion by the wheel is a short easily > replaced flexible line used--remember this is a retractable gear > aircraft. > > The point in all this is that hard lines ARE the standard in the > certified and military world in most areas and flexible lines are the > exception. Flexible lines are used only where hard lines are > impractical or expensive such as the movable mechanical (banjo type) > fluid connectors. > > Just an alternative $0.02. > > William > N237VX > > > On Jul 9, 2011, at 10:25, Kelly McMullen wrote: > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen >> >> Van's would consider adding flex lines about the same time as they >> consider stocking the correct nose wheel. They won't change the nose >> wheel even though the correct one is exactly the same price. Flex >> lines could add over $100 to the cost, especially if you include flex >> lines in place of the crummy nylon lines in the cabin. Somehow we have >> been deluded into wanting durability similar to certified >> aircraft................what a crazy idea. >> >> On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 10:06 PM, E& T Andrews wrote: >> Vans should consider including the >>> flexible hose lines in the RV10 kit... has this been raised with Vans >>> before? >>> >>> all the best >>> >>> Evan Andrews > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:42 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: External Brake Lines - crack From: William Curtis Kelly, I think we are all in agreement that the 3003 versa tube is crap and 5052 would be much better. Also, when I said NO flexible lines are used in the Cardinal fuel system, I meant from the firewall back. Naturally, firewall forward is one place where flexible lines are standard. William ----------- On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 12:32 AM, Linn Walters wrote: > > I think the decision ..... flex or hard ..... probably boiled down to > weight and cost, and the hard lines win on both counts. > Hard line failures on certified aircraft happen..... but mostly with many, > many hours on them. I have no data, but I'd bet money on the RV brake line > failures on poor flaring technique, or cheap equipment. Scoring the tubing > with the flaring tool clamp is just asking for a stress fracture. For me > it's really difficult to get a flare I'm happy with. I had to clean up my > Rolo-Flair dies because of marks on the tubing. > Linn > > > On 7/9/2011 11:56 PM, William Curtis wrote: > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: William Curtis >> >> Kelly, >> >> >> I beg to differ but in certified aircraft that I am familiar, (Cessna) >> flexible lines are used only where absolutely necessary. The >> preference by certified aircraft designers is to use hard lines as >> much as practicable if only so that there is no life limit on the >> line. >> >> This was driven home to me when I stood on the rear door of a C-17 and >> looked up at all the hydraulic plumbing. With all those movable parts >> and doors, NOT a single flexible line --not even at the actuators. >> Where the line required movement, solid lines with mechanical (banjo >> style) flexible fluid couplings were used. I took a picture of it but >> I have to find it. >> >> I know some Pipers use a short flexible line between their fuel tanks >> and the fuselage fuel coupling. However on the Cardinal that; when in >> doubt I ask "what would Cessna do" just as with Vans, flexible lines >> are kept to a minimum and used only where absolutely necessary. >> >> In the Cardinal fuel system, there are NO flexible lines. In the >> Cardinal electro-hydraulic gear system there are only four short >> flexible lines at the nose and main gear actuators. In the >> retractable gear Cardinal, the brake line in the main gear is a solid >> line. A the top of the RG brake line is a solid mechanical swivel >> fitting and only on the lower portion by the wheel is a short easily >> replaced flexible line used--remember this is a retractable gear >> aircraft. >> >> The point in all this is that hard lines ARE the standard in the >> certified and military world in most areas and flexible lines are the >> exception. Flexible lines are used only where hard lines are >> impractical or expensive such as the movable mechanical (banjo type) >> fluid connectors. >> >> Just an alternative $0.02. >> >> William >> N237VX >> >> >> On Jul 9, 2011, at 10:25, Kelly McMullen wrote: >> >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen >>> >>> Van's would consider adding flex lines about the same time as they >>> consider stocking the correct nose wheel. They won't change the nose >>> wheel even though the correct one is exactly the same price. Flex >>> lines could add over $100 to the cost, especially if you include flex >>> lines in place of the crummy nylon lines in the cabin. Somehow we have >>> been deluded into wanting durability similar to certified >>> aircraft................what a crazy idea. >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 10:06 PM, E& T Andrews>> au > wrote: >>> Vans should consider including the >>> >>>> flexible hose lines in the RV10 kit... has this been raised with Vans >>>> before? >>>> >>>> all the best >>>> >>>> Evan Andrews >>>> >>> ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: External Brake Lines - crack From: Kelly McMullen Understand. The Cardinal is a bit unique among Cessnas, with its construction and design. Many planes use short flex lines between wing tanks and hard lines in fuselage, for easy disconnect and absorbing wing flex. IIRC those swivel joints for the RG are a bit of a maintenance pain, although they don't need frequent attention. The brake flex lines on my Mooney are a piece of cake. Every 10-15 years when they get hard, just remove, make new lines and reinstall. They get significant flex every time the gear goes up or down. Just comes down to using good quality material with design that can give with flex without work hardening. Obviously builder's choice of what they want to use. On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 9:50 PM, William Curtis wrote: > Kelly, > > I think we are all in agreement that the 3003 versa tube is crap and 5052 > would be much better. Also, when I said NO flexible lines are used in the > Cardinal fuel system, I meant from the firewall back. Naturally, firewall > forward is one place where flexible lines are standard. > > William > ----------- ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:38 PM PST US From: Scott Schmidt Subject: Re: RV10-List: Big Sky Air Race The airport is at 4080 ft. Max power was 25 inches and I ran between 2500 and 2600 RPM. Fuel flow was 19-20 gph and I flew 500-1000 ft agl. -Scott Sent from my iPhone On Jul 9, 2011, at 9:06 PM, Robin Marks wrote: > Scott, > > What general engine settings are you flying in a race like that. MP (max I assume), RPM? At what ALT is the race conducted plus fuel burn when racing? > > > > Thanks, > > Robin > > > > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt > Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 6:51 PM > To: RV-10 List > Subject: RV10-List: Big Sky Air Race > > > > Sean and I just got back from Three Forks, Montana and had a great time ru nning in the race up there today. We represented our RV-10 group pretty goo d, I think. > > There were about 30 planes running in the race and the weather was perfect , the Sacajawea Hotel there is great with a very good restaurant and they di d a good job organizing everything. > > If you are ever in the area it would be a fun place to stop over for a nig ht and enjoy the quaint town and small town airport. > > It was a 126nm course and pretty flat. > > > > Sean's plane is still very new and I was surprised at how close we both we re but we do have the same engine and prop. He is still breaking in the eng ine and we have some tweaking to do on the ailerons. > > I averaged 204.6 mph and Sean was 203.8. > > I don't have all the results but the -10 was right there and sometimes fas ter than the -6's, -7's and -8's. > > I'll do it again. > > > Scott Schmidt > > > > > ==== > RV10-List Email Forum - > Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > w.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV 1 > ====================== > m">http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ====================== > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.