---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/19/11: 29 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:50 AM - Re: Re: OSH camp conditions report (Tim Olson) 2. 05:51 AM - OSH Notam (Tim Olson) 3. 06:43 AM - Re: OSH Notam (Phil Perry) 4. 06:43 AM - Re: OSH Notam (Phil Perry) 5. 06:52 AM - Re: OSH Notam (Jerry Calvert) 6. 08:10 AM - GPS (Chris Hukill) 7. 08:11 AM - So did they really rename Aeroshell Square? (Tim Olson) 8. 08:36 AM - Re: OSH camp conditions report (orchidman) 9. 08:39 AM - Re: So did they really rename Aeroshell Square? (tsts4) 10. 08:52 AM - Re: OSH Notam (Kelly McMullen) 11. 09:13 AM - Re: OSH Notam (tsts4) 12. 09:13 AM - Re: OSH Notam (Tim Olson) 13. 09:54 AM - Re: Oshkosh Cookout (Bob Condrey) 14. 12:58 PM - My "fix" for dragging brakes (billz) 15. 01:26 PM - Re: My "fix" for dragging brakes (Linn Walters) 16. 01:51 PM - Re: Re: OSH camp conditions report (Rick Beebe) 17. 02:08 PM - Re: My "fix" for dragging brakes (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 18. 02:08 PM - Re: Re: OSH camp conditions report (Kelly McMullen) 19. 02:26 PM - Re: My "fix" for dragging brakes (billz) 20. 03:11 PM - Re: Re: My "fix" for dragging brakes (Linn Walters) 21. 03:30 PM - Re: OSH Notam (tsts4) 22. 04:26 PM - Re: My "fix" for dragging brakes (Phil Perry) 23. 07:25 PM - NavWorx ADS600-B Transceiver Arrives... (Matt Dralle) 24. 08:24 PM - Re: NavWorx ADS600-B Transceiver Arrives... (Tim Olson) 25. 08:38 PM - Re: My "fix" for dragging brakes (Tim Olson) 26. 09:04 PM - Re: My "fix" for dragging brakes (Rick) 27. 09:09 PM - Re: My "fix" for dragging brakes (Dave Saylor) 28. 09:43 PM - Re: My "fix" for dragging brakes (Dick & Vicki Sipp) 29. 09:46 PM - Re: My "fix" for dragging brakes (Dick & Vicki Sipp) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:25 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: OSH camp conditions report Hi Ron, To get the best sites, you'd probably want to drop everything and leave NOW. But, to avoid the mass arrivals, you probably should shoot for Saturday at the very latest. Most years I've flown in Friday and it was very relaxed with very little traffic. But Saturday thru Monday it is very hopping, so avoid anything after Saturday a.m. if you don't like traffic. Personally, I love it when it's busy, other than when some schmo takes a digger on the runway and causes the traffic to back up over Ripon, but I'm a bit weird that way. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive On 7/18/2011 3:06 PM, Ron B. wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Ron B." > > Thanks Tim Yes I think we plan on camping with out RV-10. I've never > stayed overnight while at Oshkosh. I think we miss out on meeting a > lot of people. I'm going to Oshkosh this year to hopefully meet with > guy's like you and others I corresponded with on the various forums. > I just received news that a prior commitment has been postponed so I > can leave whenever I want now. What day would you suggest we arrive > in order to get a half decent site and avoid the masses in arrival. > Thanks Ron > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=346915#346915 > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:58 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: OSH Notam For those of you flying to OSH this year, make sure to have a copy of the OSH NOTAM on your ipad, or at least an old fashioned paper copy. I use "goodreader" on the iPad and it's perfect for that sort of thing. But don't go in there without one and don't go in there unprepared. It will be wonderful if we can enjoy a year with zero RV accidents, and everyone can help keep our insurance reasonable and our pilots alive. -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:57 AM PST US From: Phil Perry Subject: Re: RV10-List: OSH Notam For the IPad users, download the Airventure App from sportys. It is awesome. The NOTAM is in there (with quick reference bookmarks). A full set of maps of the show. Vendor guides with a search feature. Full schedules of the workshops, forums, shows, etc. They really did a great job on it. The only thing I'd like to see is the map have a follow me dot with gps so you can see where you really are. Also it would be cool to set a hit-list of vendors and such. So when you get within 100yrds of vendor X, you get an alert to go out of your way and see them whole you're close. Download it though. It's a great app. On Jul 19, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > > For those of you flying to OSH this year, make sure to > have a copy of the OSH NOTAM on your ipad, or at least > an old fashioned paper copy. I use "goodreader" on the > iPad and it's perfect for that sort of thing. > But don't go in there without one and don't go in > there unprepared. It will be wonderful if we can > enjoy a year with zero RV accidents, and everyone can > help keep our insurance reasonable and our pilots alive. > > -- > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD > do not archive > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:57 AM PST US From: Phil Perry Subject: Re: RV10-List: OSH Notam For the IPad users, download the Airventure App from sportys. It is awesome. The NOTAM is in there (with quick reference bookmarks). A full set of maps of the show. Vendor guides with a search feature. Full schedules of the workshops, forums, shows, etc. They really did a great job on it. The only thing I'd like to see is the map have a follow me dot with gps so you can see where you really are. Also it would be cool to set a hit-list of vendors and such. So when you get within 100yrds of vendor X, you get an alert to go out of your way and see them whole you're close. Download it though. It's a great app. On Jul 19, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > > For those of you flying to OSH this year, make sure to > have a copy of the OSH NOTAM on your ipad, or at least > an old fashioned paper copy. I use "goodreader" on the > iPad and it's perfect for that sort of thing. > But don't go in there without one and don't go in > there unprepared. It will be wonderful if we can > enjoy a year with zero RV accidents, and everyone can > help keep our insurance reasonable and our pilots alive. > > -- > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD > do not archive > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:12 AM PST US From: "Jerry Calvert" Subject: RE: RV10-List: OSH Notam Here are some videos on the EAA website that are helpful. http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1034207682001 Flying into Air Venture http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=106561215001 Flying into Air Venture - A First Timer's Guide http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1055942969001 Flying the Fisk Arrival Jerry Calvert RV6 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 7:47 AM Subject: RV10-List: OSH Notam For those of you flying to OSH this year, make sure to have a copy of the OSH NOTAM on your ipad, or at least an old fashioned paper copy. I use "goodreader" on the iPad and it's perfect for that sort of thing. But don't go in there without one and don't go in there unprepared. It will be wonderful if we can enjoy a year with zero RV accidents, and everyone can help keep our insurance reasonable and our pilots alive. -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:38 AM PST US From: "Chris Hukill" Subject: RV10-List: GPS I'm in there! Chris Hukill ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:47 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: So did they really rename Aeroshell Square? Sounds like they call it ConocoPhilips Plaza now? That's gonna be a hard one to switch to. :) I don't even use aeroshell and I'll still have to call it Aeroshell square. -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:24 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: OSH camp conditions report From: "orchidman" Tim Olson wrote: > Personally, I love it when it's busy, other than when some schmo takes a digger on the runway and causes the traffic to back up over Ripon, but I'm a bit weird that way. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD > Or get behind a J-3 Cub. He has to fly almost straight down to get up to an airspeed equal to our stall speed [Mr. Green] -------- Gary Blankenbiller RV10 - # 40674 (N2GB Flying) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347041#347041 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:03 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: So did they really rename Aeroshell Square? From: "tsts4" Yep, IIRC sometime earlier this year EAA made an announcement about the change. I also seemed to recall the major concern was whether the AeroShell cow posters would still be available. :D -------- Todd Stovall 728TT (reserved) RV-10 Empacone, Wings, Fuse www.mykitlog.com/auburntsts Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347042#347042 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: OSH Notam From: Kelly McMullen Have to wonder what will happen to OSH wireless system with the new invasion of iPads. Wonder if EAA will ever improve the response speed of OSH365 forum. For me it has always been like molasses whether on wireless or good hard wired broadband. On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 6:41 AM, Phil Perry wrote: > > For the IPad users, download the Airventure App from sportys. It is awesome. > > The NOTAM is in there (with quick reference bookmarks). > A full set of maps of the show. > Vendor guides with a search feature. > Full schedules of the workshops, forums, shows, etc. > > They really did a great job on it. The only thing I'd like to see is the map have a follow me dot with gps so you can see where you really are. Also it would be cool to set a hit-list of vendors and such. So when you get within 100yrds of vendor X, you get an alert to go out of your way and see them whole you're close. > > Download it though. It's a great app. > > On Jul 19, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > >> >> For those of you flying to OSH this year, make sure to >> have a copy of the OSH NOTAM on your ipad, or at least >> an old fashioned paper copy. I use "goodreader" on the >> iPad and it's perfect for that sort of thing. >> But don't go in there without one and don't go in >> there unprepared. It will be wonderful if we can >> enjoy a year with zero RV accidents, and everyone can >> help keep our insurance reasonable and our pilots alive. >> >> -- >> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD >> do not archive >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:00 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: OSH Notam From: "tsts4" They've already announced that they are ditching the current OSHKOSH365 software after our continual complaints on how crappy it is. However, they haven't announced what the replacement will be although if I was a betting man I'd place my money on some version of vBulletin. They also had originally wanted to re-launch prior to AirVenture but it doens't look like that's going to happen. -------- Todd Stovall 728TT (reserved) RV-10 Empacone, Wings, Fuse www.mykitlog.com/auburntsts Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347048#347048 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:05 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: OSH Notam Alright everyone, download your charts and databases BEFORE you get to Airventure! :) Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive On 7/19/2011 10:50 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen > > Have to wonder what will happen to OSH wireless system with the new > invasion of iPads. Wonder if EAA will ever improve the response speed > of OSH365 forum. For me it has always been like molasses whether on > wireless or good hard wired broadband. > > On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 6:41 AM, Phil Perry wrote: >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Phil Perry >> >> For the IPad users, download the Airventure App from sportys. It is awesome. >> >> The NOTAM is in there (with quick reference bookmarks). >> A full set of maps of the show. >> Vendor guides with a search feature. >> Full schedules of the workshops, forums, shows, etc. >> >> They really did a great job on it. The only thing I'd like to see is the map have a follow me dot with gps so you can see where you really are. Also it would be cool to set a hit-list of vendors and such. So when you get within 100yrds of vendor X, you get an alert to go out of your way and see them whole you're close. >> >> Download it though. It's a great app. >> >> On Jul 19, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Tim Olson wrote: >> >>> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson >>> >>> For those of you flying to OSH this year, make sure to >>> have a copy of the OSH NOTAM on your ipad, or at least >>> an old fashioned paper copy. I use "goodreader" on the >>> iPad and it's perfect for that sort of thing. >>> But don't go in there without one and don't go in >>> there unprepared. It will be wonderful if we can >>> enjoy a year with zero RV accidents, and everyone can >>> help keep our insurance reasonable and our pilots alive. >>> >>> -- >>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD >>> do not archive >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oshkosh Cookout From: Bob Condrey There are no specific plans at this point. We do however have space available in Camp Scholler if you'd like to put something together. Bob On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 10:40 PM, Steve Roberts wrote: > > Are there any plans to get together for a cookout this year? We will be > there all week staying over by the museum. > > Last year's cookouts were great but I know a tremendous amount of effort > went into them. > > Perhaps we could make it BYO everything including food and chairs if we had > a grill available and a place/time to meet. > > Steve Roberts > RV-10 Tailkit > 1966 Mooney M20E 'Ms. Obsession' KMOR Morristown TN > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:32 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: My "fix" for dragging brakes From: "billz" I've been reading about the various dragging brake issues on the forum, talked with several folks and experienced the problem with a friend's RV-10. 1. I found out, from the folks at Matco, that it is critical for the master cylinder to fully extend when pressure is removed from the brake pedals. The last 1/16th in. of piston extension is needed for fluid to bypass internally allowing the brake pads to retract. It doesn't take much to keep pressure on the brake pads. My friend fixed his with a spring arrangement on the pedals. 2. I also learned that minimizing friction in the brake pedals is important. They should move freely with no binding. All bolt holes should be properly drilled to assure free movement. The bolts should not be overly tightened, to minimize drag. 3. The Van's design uses two short AN3 bolts on each side of the bottom of the pedals. This can result in some minor twisting that can add resistance to the pedal movement. Matco suggested replacing these with one long bolt. (I purchased AN3-60 bolts, $10 each) I also used some aluminum tubing over the bolt to provide a spacer inside the pedal flanges. I found springs at McMaster (part # 9271K542 and 9271K542, 270 deg, left and right hand). These were put over the through bolt and aluminum tube. The springs I settled on (to get enough return force) were larger inside diameter than the aluminum tube so I found some old garden hose to put over the tubing as a spacer. As you can see from the pictures, the springs provide return force and work nicely to provide positive pressure on the pedal and master cylinders. So far, it seems like a "no drag" configuration. Since I'm not flying, a final report will have to wait for the future. Does all this make sense from what others have learned from experience?? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347079#347079 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1388_336.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1387_104.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1386_109.jpg ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:21 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: My "fix" for dragging brakes Your spring idea is good. However placing a compression spring over the cylinder shaft would be lighter and maybe more effective solution. Linn On 7/19/2011 3:53 PM, billz wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "billz" > > I've been reading about the various dragging brake issues on the forum, talked with several folks and experienced the problem with a friend's RV-10. > > 1. I found out, from the folks at Matco, that it is critical for the master cylinder to fully extend when pressure is removed from the brake pedals. The last 1/16th in. of piston extension is needed for fluid to bypass internally allowing the brake pads to retract. It doesn't take much to keep pressure on the brake pads. My friend fixed his with a spring arrangement on the pedals. > > 2. I also learned that minimizing friction in the brake pedals is important. They should move freely with no binding. All bolt holes should be properly drilled to assure free movement. The bolts should not be overly tightened, to minimize drag. > > 3. The Van's design uses two short AN3 bolts on each side of the bottom of the pedals. This can result in some minor twisting that can add resistance to the pedal movement. Matco suggested replacing these with one long bolt. (I purchased AN3-60 bolts, $10 each) I also used some aluminum tubing over the bolt to provide a spacer inside the pedal flanges. I found springs at McMaster (part # 9271K542 and 9271K542, 270 deg, left and right hand). These were put over the through bolt and aluminum tube. The springs I settled on (to get enough return force) were larger inside diameter than the aluminum tube so I found some old garden hose to put over the tubing as a spacer. > > As you can see from the pictures, the springs provide return force and work nicely to provide positive pressure on the pedal and master cylinders. So far, it seems like a "no drag" configuration. Since I'm not flying, a final report will have to wait for the future. Does all this make sense from what others have learned from experience?? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347079#347079 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1388_336.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1387_104.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1386_109.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:51 PM PST US From: Rick Beebe Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: OSH camp conditions report On 07/19/2011 08:45 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > > Hi Ron, > > To get the best sites, you'd probably want to drop everything > and leave NOW. But, to avoid the mass arrivals, you probably > should shoot for Saturday at the very latest. Mass arrivals: Saturday 1:00pm - Bonanza & Cherokee Saturday 2:30pm - Cessna Saturday 4:00pm - Mooney Sunday 11:30am - Comanche Sunday 3:00pm - racers ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:08:50 PM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV10-List: My "fix" for dragging brakes I forgot who did that but I've seen it before and it is what I plan to do. Michael -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Linn Walters Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 3:23 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: My "fix" for dragging brakes --> Your spring idea is good. However placing a compression spring over the cylinder shaft would be lighter and maybe more effective solution. Linn On 7/19/2011 3:53 PM, billz wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "billz" > > I've been reading about the various dragging brake issues on the forum, talked with several folks and experienced the problem with a friend's RV-10. > > 1. I found out, from the folks at Matco, that it is critical for the master cylinder to fully extend when pressure is removed from the brake pedals. The last 1/16th in. of piston extension is needed for fluid to bypass internally allowing the brake pads to retract. It doesn't take much to keep pressure on the brake pads. My friend fixed his with a spring arrangement on the pedals. > > 2. I also learned that minimizing friction in the brake pedals is important. They should move freely with no binding. All bolt holes should be properly drilled to assure free movement. The bolts should not be overly tightened, to minimize drag. > > 3. The Van's design uses two short AN3 bolts on each side of the bottom of the pedals. This can result in some minor twisting that can add resistance to the pedal movement. Matco suggested replacing these with one long bolt. (I purchased AN3-60 bolts, $10 each) I also used some aluminum tubing over the bolt to provide a spacer inside the pedal flanges. I found springs at McMaster (part # 9271K542 and 9271K542, 270 deg, left and right hand). These were put over the through bolt and aluminum tube. The springs I settled on (to get enough return force) were larger inside diameter than the aluminum tube so I found some old garden hose to put over the tubing as a spacer. > > As you can see from the pictures, the springs provide return force and work nicely to provide positive pressure on the pedal and master cylinders. So far, it seems like a "no drag" configuration. Since I'm not flying, a final report will have to wait for the future. Does all this make sense from what others have learned from experience?? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347079#347079 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1388_336.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1387_104.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1386_109.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:08:54 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: OSH camp conditions report From: Kelly McMullen Hmm, that should be exciting...Cherokees mixing with Bonanzas with same arrival time. On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Rick Beebe wrote: > > On 07/19/2011 08:45 AM, Tim Olson wrote: >> >> >> Hi Ron, >> >> To get the best sites, you'd probably want to drop everything >> and leave NOW. But, to avoid the mass arrivals, you probably >> should shoot for Saturday at the very latest. > > Mass arrivals: > > Saturday 1:00pm - Bonanza & Cherokee > Saturday 2:30pm - Cessna > Saturday 4:00pm - Mooney > > Sunday 11:30am - Comanche > Sunday 3:00pm - racers > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:11 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: My "fix" for dragging brakes From: "billz" I tried a variety of compression springs with collars, as previously shown on the forum. I kept having problems with the spring only having a limited range of compression which limited the travel of the piston. I could only get about 1 in compression before the spring was fully compressed. Matco says all you need is 3/4 in travel, but I wanted to keep the option for greater travel, if needed. Maybe someone else will have better luck with that approach than I did. Good Luck! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347095#347095 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:33 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: My "fix" for dragging brakes I replied to Ralph off-line, but just a reminder ...... Slight brake dragging is a natural function of disc brakes. The area just outside the O-ring collects dirt which doesn't allow the puck to retract more, and that O-ring gets stiff with time/heat. The spring remedy only allows the cylinder shaft to extend fully allowing the fluid pressure to relax. Nothing is available to 'suck' the brake puck back. Linn On 7/19/2011 5:22 PM, billz wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "billz" > > I tried a variety of compression springs with collars, as previously shown on the forum. I kept having problems with the spring only having a limited range of compression which limited the travel of the piston. I could only get about 1 in compression before the spring was fully compressed. Matco says all you need is 3/4 in travel, but I wanted to keep the option for greater travel, if needed. > > Maybe someone else will have better luck with that approach than I did. > > Good Luck! > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347095#347095 > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:29 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: OSH Notam From: "tsts4" Guys I stand corrected. The new EAA forum site is up and it is vBulletin based: www.eaaforums.org -------- Todd Stovall 728TT (reserved) RV-10 Empacone, Wings, Fuse www.mykitlog.com/auburntsts Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347103#347103 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: My "fix" for dragging brakes From: Phil Perry It was me. I'll see if I can find some old write ups and photos of the mod. It was easy, cheap, and effective. If I were building another one, I'd do the same thing again. Phil On Jul 19, 2011, at 4:05 PM, "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" wrote: > > I forgot who did that but I've seen it before and it is what I plan to do. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Linn Walters > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 3:23 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: My "fix" for dragging brakes > > --> > > Your spring idea is good. However placing a compression spring over the cylinder shaft would be lighter and maybe more effective solution. > Linn > > On 7/19/2011 3:53 PM, billz wrote: >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "billz" >> >> I've been reading about the various dragging brake issues on the forum, talked with several folks and experienced the problem with a friend's RV-10. >> >> 1. I found out, from the folks at Matco, that it is critical for the master cylinder to fully extend when pressure is removed from the brake pedals. The last 1/16th in. of piston extension is needed for fluid to bypass internally allowing the brake pads to retract. It doesn't take much to keep pressure on the brake pads. My friend fixed his with a spring arrangement on the pedals. >> >> 2. I also learned that minimizing friction in the brake pedals is important. They should move freely with no binding. All bolt holes should be properly drilled to assure free movement. The bolts should not be overly tightened, to minimize drag. >> >> 3. The Van's design uses two short AN3 bolts on each side of the bottom of the pedals. This can result in some minor twisting that can add resistance to the pedal movement. Matco suggested replacing these with one long bolt. (I purchased AN3-60 bolts, $10 each) I also used some aluminum tubing over the bolt to provide a spacer inside the pedal flanges. I found springs at McMaster (part # 9271K542 and 9271K542, 270 deg, left and right hand). These were put over the through bolt and aluminum tube. The springs I settled on (to get enough return force) were larger inside diameter than the aluminum tube so I found some old garden hose to put over the tubing as a spacer. >> >> As you can see from the pictures, the springs provide return force and work nicely to provide positive pressure on the pedal and master cylinders. So far, it seems like a "no drag" configuration. Since I'm not flying, a final report will have to wait for the future. Does all this make sense from what others have learned from experience?? >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347079#347079 >> >> >> >> >> Attachments: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1388_336.jpg >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1387_104.jpg >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1386_109.jpg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:43 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV10-List: NavWorx ADS600-B Transceiver Arrives... Dear Listers, The NavWorx ADS600-B Transceiver kit arrived today. Included in the box were the following: 1ea ADS600-B Transceiver Unit 1ea DB37 Connector w/ Shell 2ea RG-142 BNC Antenna Coax Cables (terminated on one end) 1ea Wireless receiver option (802.11) 1ea End User License sheet 1ea Attention Warning sheet Missing from the package, it seemed to me were: 1ea Installation Manual 1ea Instruction Manual 1ea Wiring Diagram 2ea BNC connectors for Terminating Antenna Cable 1ea UAT Antenna 1ea GPS Antenna Attached are a couple of pictures of what I received. Looking over the NavWorx web site, I'm not finding anywhere to download instruction manuals or installation manuals. Am I suppose to buy the UAT and GPS antennas separately? I didn't see these available separately on the NavWorx web site when I ordered the package. I called and left NavWorx a voicemail. At this point, I'm kind at a loss...? :-/ Matt - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap... ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:46 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: NavWorx ADS600-B Transceiver Arrives... I think the UAT antenna and GPS antennas are not included. I bought mine separately...along with the BNC connectors for them, because you may find that you'll need TNC for the GPS antenna...so those are left for you to get. They do have a contact where you can get a cheaper UAT antenna, if you ask them. The wiring diagrams are int he install manual, and I myself have been surprised that they aren't on the website, but I attributed that to them updating them often as things progressed. I've always just got mine via email from Bill. If you need a copy I have one but it may not be current....it should still suffice. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD do not archive On 7/19/2011 9:22 PM, Matt Dralle wrote: > > Dear Listers, > > The NavWorx ADS600-B Transceiver kit arrived today. Included in the box were the following: > > 1ea ADS600-B Transceiver Unit > 1ea DB37 Connector w/ Shell > 2ea RG-142 BNC Antenna Coax Cables (terminated on one end) > 1ea Wireless receiver option (802.11) > 1ea End User License sheet > 1ea Attention Warning sheet > > Missing from the package, it seemed to me were: > > 1ea Installation Manual > 1ea Instruction Manual > 1ea Wiring Diagram > 2ea BNC connectors for Terminating Antenna Cable > 1ea UAT Antenna > 1ea GPS Antenna > > Attached are a couple of pictures of what I received. > > Looking over the NavWorx web site, I'm not finding anywhere to download instruction manuals or installation manuals. Am I suppose to buy the UAT and GPS antennas separately? I didn't see these available separately on the NavWorx web site when I ordered the package. > > I called and left NavWorx a voicemail. > > At this point, I'm kind at a loss...? :-/ > > Matt > > > - > Matt Dralle > RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen" > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log > http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > Status: 170+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap... ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:02 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: My "fix" for dragging brakes While I'm not going to say you shouldn't improve it if you want to, I will make a couple of comments: 1) We need to make sure that builders understand NOT to torque the bolts too tight that the pedals hinge on. If you don't torque them too tight, you're unlikely to have an issue with them even with the standard bolts. Improving them isn't going to hurt, but I would say that it isn't necessary for most people...maybe those with some parts or things that aren't in normal tolerances. 2) Regarding the springs, that's the same deal. I don't think most people will need anything like that. Sure, it may not hurt, but if you're going to do it, just do it in a way that doesn't have any other possible failure mode that could jam the brakes. As long as you do that, modify them if you think you need to. I just don't think most people will need to. 3) As was already noted, disc brakes just work with a bit of drag on them because there is no "retract" spring for the pistons. You push the brakes, they go out and touch the discs, and when you release the brakes they still just barely touch the discs. Even a standard design for the pedals should not cause any additional drag, as long as your pedals retract and you keep your heels on the floor and don't ride the brakes. So again, while improving them to your satisfaction isn't a bad thing, It's really not a necessary thing. You're never going to eliminate the inherent disc brake drag. With 750+ hours on mine, and using the standard setup, I've never seen any reason to have anything more. The one-piece bolt isn't a bad idea at all, and if they included it all in the kit, I'd be happy with it. But don't make all the other builders think there is some problem with the design, because those pedals will work just fine per-plans, provided you don't overtorque or have some other misalignment that causes the pedals to not move freely. All builders should make sure that THIS isn't a problem as they build...then they'll end up with a fine working system. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD On 7/19/2011 2:53 PM, billz wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "billz" > > I've been reading about the various dragging brake issues on the > forum, talked with several folks and experienced the problem with a > friend's RV-10. > > 1. I found out, from the folks at Matco, that it is critical for the > master cylinder to fully extend when pressure is removed from the > brake pedals. The last 1/16th in. of piston extension is needed for > fluid to bypass internally allowing the brake pads to retract. It > doesn't take much to keep pressure on the brake pads. My friend > fixed his with a spring arrangement on the pedals. > > 2. I also learned that minimizing friction in the brake pedals is > important. They should move freely with no binding. All bolt holes > should be properly drilled to assure free movement. The bolts should > not be overly tightened, to minimize drag. > > 3. The Van's design uses two short AN3 bolts on each side of the > bottom of the pedals. This can result in some minor twisting that > can add resistance to the pedal movement. Matco suggested replacing > these with one long bolt. (I purchased AN3-60 bolts, $10 each) I > also used some aluminum tubing over the bolt to provide a spacer > inside the pedal flanges. I found springs at McMaster (part # > 9271K542 and 9271K542, 270 deg, left and right hand). These were put > over the through bolt and aluminum tube. The springs I settled on > (to get enough return force) were larger inside diameter than the > aluminum tube so I found some old garden hose to put over the tubing > as a spacer. > > As you can see from the pictures, the springs provide return force > and work nicely to provide positive pressure on the pedal and master > cylinders. So far, it seems like a "no drag" configuration. Since > I'm not flying, a final report will have to wait for the future. > Does all this make sense from what others have learned from > experience?? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347079#347079 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1388_336.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1387_104.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1386_109.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:03 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: My "fix" for dragging brakes From: Rick I didn't know there was a problem. But I only had 120 hours on mine before it went to it's new owner. I think I'll keep the original on the next one as well. IMHO it's feet that are dragging or riding on the pedals, not the system or design. But I don't piss in buckets either. Rick Sked Fuselage number 2 kit 1154 Do not archive Sent from my iPhone On Jul 19, 2011, at 8:33 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > While I'm not going to say you shouldn't improve it if > you want to, I will make a couple of comments: > > 1) We need to make sure that builders understand NOT > to torque the bolts too tight that the pedals hinge on. > If you don't torque them too tight, you're unlikely > to have an issue with them even with the standard bolts. > Improving them isn't going to hurt, but I would say > that it isn't necessary for most people...maybe those > with some parts or things that aren't in normal > tolerances. > > 2) Regarding the springs, that's the same deal. I don't > think most people will need anything like that. Sure, > it may not hurt, but if you're going to do it, just do > it in a way that doesn't have any other possible failure > mode that could jam the brakes. As long as you > do that, modify them if you think you need to. I just > don't think most people will need to. > > 3) As was already noted, disc brakes just work with a > bit of drag on them because there is no "retract" > spring for the pistons. You push the brakes, they > go out and touch the discs, and when you release > the brakes they still just barely touch the discs. > Even a standard design for the pedals should not > cause any additional drag, as long as your pedals > retract and you keep your heels on the floor and > don't ride the brakes. So again, while improving > them to your satisfaction isn't a bad thing, It's really > not a necessary thing. You're never going to eliminate > the inherent disc brake drag. > > With 750+ hours on mine, and using the standard > setup, I've never seen any reason to have anything > more. The one-piece bolt isn't a bad idea at all, > and if they included it all in the kit, I'd be > happy with it. But don't make all the other builders > think there is some problem with the design, because > those pedals will work just fine per-plans, provided > you don't overtorque or have some other misalignment > that causes the pedals to not move freely. All > builders should make sure that THIS isn't a problem > as they build...then they'll end up with a fine > working system. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD > > > > On 7/19/2011 2:53 PM, billz wrote: >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "billz" >> >> I've been reading about the various dragging brake issues on the >> forum, talked with several folks and experienced the problem with a >> friend's RV-10. >> >> 1. I found out, from the folks at Matco, that it is critical for the >> master cylinder to fully extend when pressure is removed from the >> brake pedals. The last 1/16th in. of piston extension is needed for >> fluid to bypass internally allowing the brake pads to retract. It >> doesn't take much to keep pressure on the brake pads. My friend >> fixed his with a spring arrangement on the pedals. >> >> 2. I also learned that minimizing friction in the brake pedals is >> important. They should move freely with no binding. All bolt holes >> should be properly drilled to assure free movement. The bolts should >> not be overly tightened, to minimize drag. >> >> 3. The Van's design uses two short AN3 bolts on each side of the >> bottom of the pedals. This can result in some minor twisting that >> can add resistance to the pedal movement. Matco suggested replacing >> these with one long bolt. (I purchased AN3-60 bolts, $10 each) I >> also used some aluminum tubing over the bolt to provide a spacer >> inside the pedal flanges. I found springs at McMaster (part # >> 9271K542 and 9271K542, 270 deg, left and right hand). These were put >> over the through bolt and aluminum tube. The springs I settled on >> (to get enough return force) were larger inside diameter than the >> aluminum tube so I found some old garden hose to put over the tubing >> as a spacer. >> >> As you can see from the pictures, the springs provide return force >> and work nicely to provide positive pressure on the pedal and master >> cylinders. So far, it seems like a "no drag" configuration. Since >> I'm not flying, a final report will have to wait for the future. >> Does all this make sense from what others have learned from >> experience?? >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347079#347079 >> >> >> >> >> Attachments: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1388_336.jpg >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1387_104.jpg >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1386_109.jpg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:50 PM PST US From: Dave Saylor Subject: Re: RV10-List: My "fix" for dragging brakes What Tim said. Plus, keep in mind that the master cylinders have internal springs that push the piston back out. If they aren't sufficient there could be another problem. The clothes pin springs and long bolts are a nice touch but I see a couple of wear points that might need to eventually be addressed. Fewer parts are usually better! Make sure the assembly is free, even a little sloppy, and it should work fine. Dave Saylor 895 hours AirCrafters 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 95076 831-722-9141 Shop 831-750-0284 Cell On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > While I'm not going to say you shouldn't improve it if > you want to, I will make a couple of comments: > > 1) We need to make sure that builders understand NOT > to torque the bolts too tight that the pedals hinge on. > If you don't torque them too tight, you're unlikely > to have an issue with them even with the standard bolts. > Improving them isn't going to hurt, but I would say > that it isn't necessary for most people...maybe those > with some parts or things that aren't in normal > tolerances. > > 2) Regarding the springs, that's the same deal. I don't > think most people will need anything like that. Sure, > it may not hurt, but if you're going to do it, just do > it in a way that doesn't have any other possible failure > mode that could jam the brakes. As long as you > do that, modify them if you think you need to. I just > don't think most people will need to. > > 3) As was already noted, disc brakes just work with a > bit of drag on them because there is no "retract" > spring for the pistons. You push the brakes, they > go out and touch the discs, and when you release > the brakes they still just barely touch the discs. > Even a standard design for the pedals should not > cause any additional drag, as long as your pedals > retract and you keep your heels on the floor and > don't ride the brakes. So again, while improving > them to your satisfaction isn't a bad thing, It's really > not a necessary thing. You're never going to eliminate > the inherent disc brake drag. > > With 750+ hours on mine, and using the standard > setup, I've never seen any reason to have anything > more. The one-piece bolt isn't a bad idea at all, > and if they included it all in the kit, I'd be > happy with it. But don't make all the other builders > think there is some problem with the design, because > those pedals will work just fine per-plans, provided > you don't overtorque or have some other misalignment > that causes the pedals to not move freely. All > builders should make sure that THIS isn't a problem > as they build...then they'll end up with a fine > working system. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD > > > On 7/19/2011 2:53 PM, billz wrote: >> >> >> I've been reading about the various dragging brake issues on the >> forum, talked with several folks and experienced the problem with a >> friend's RV-10. >> >> 1. I found out, from the folks at Matco, that it is critical for the >> master cylinder to fully extend when pressure is removed from the >> brake pedals. The last 1/16th in. of piston extension is needed for >> fluid to bypass internally allowing the brake pads to retract. It >> doesn't take much to keep pressure on the brake pads. My friend >> fixed his with a spring arrangement on the pedals. >> >> 2. I also learned that minimizing friction in the brake pedals is >> important. They should move freely with no binding. All bolt holes >> should be properly drilled to assure free movement. The bolts should >> not be overly tightened, to minimize drag. >> >> 3. The Van's design uses two short AN3 bolts on each side of the >> bottom of the pedals. This can result in some minor twisting that >> can add resistance to the pedal movement. Matco suggested replacing >> these with one long bolt. (I purchased AN3-60 bolts, $10 each) I >> also used some aluminum tubing over the bolt to provide a spacer >> inside the pedal flanges. I found springs at McMaster (part # >> 9271K542 and 9271K542, 270 deg, left and right hand). These were put >> over the through bolt and aluminum tube. The springs I settled on >> (to get enough return force) were larger inside diameter than the >> aluminum tube so I found some old garden hose to put over the tubing >> as a spacer. >> >> As you can see from the pictures, the springs provide return force >> and work nicely to provide positive pressure on the pedal and master >> cylinders. So far, it seems like a "no drag" configuration. Since >> I'm not flying, a final report will have to wait for the future. >> Does all this make sense from what others have learned from >> experience?? >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347079#347079 >> >> >> >> >> Attachments: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1388_336.jpg >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1387_104.jpg >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1386_109.jpg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:57 PM PST US From: "Dick & Vicki Sipp" Subject: Re: RV10-List: My "fix" for dragging brakes We'll have to "ditto" Tim's comments on this issue. We got almost 300 hours on the first set of pads with a standard per the plans brake installation. The earlier RV's all had similar issues. In my opinion most of these are related to the somewhat severe angle that the pedals meet your feet, i.e. it is very easy to apply brake pressure when you would think you are not. The -10, IMHO, is the least problematic in this regard so far. (The RV-12 kit includes plastic blocks installed on the bottom of the pedals to reduce this angle not unlike what others have done as a mod on the 10) I believe a little practice in the technique of keeping heels on the floor at all times unless brake application is desired will go a long way to getting good brake pad life and minimal heating. Tailwinds, Dick Sipp RV-4, RV-10, B-25D all castering nose wheels and sensitive brakes :) ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:44 PM PST US From: "Dick & Vicki Sipp" Subject: Re: RV10-List: My "fix" for dragging brakes CORRECTION: My bad, of course the RV-4 does not have a castering nose wheel. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dick & Vicki Sipp Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 12:40 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: My "fix" for dragging brakes We'll have to "ditto" Tim's comments on this issue. We got almost 300 hours on the first set of pads with a standard per the plans brake installation. The earlier RV's all had similar issues. In my opinion most of these are related to the somewhat severe angle that the pedals meet your feet, i.e. it is very easy to apply brake pressure when you would think you are not. The -10, IMHO, is the least problematic in this regard so far. (The RV-12 kit includes plastic blocks installed on the bottom of the pedals to reduce this angle not unlike what others have done as a mod on the 10) I believe a little practice in the technique of keeping heels on the floor at all times unless brake application is desired will go a long way to getting good brake pad life and minimal heating. Tailwinds, Dick Sipp RV-4, RV-10, B-25D all castering nose wheels and sensitive brakes :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.