Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:16 AM - Battery choice (Marcus Cooper)
2. 10:40 AM - Re: Battery choice (AirMike)
3. 01:40 PM - Panel Choice (nukeflyboy)
4. 02:45 PM - Re: Panel Choice (Robin Marks)
5. 02:45 PM - Re: Battery choice (Bob Turner)
6. 02:45 PM - Re: Panel Choice (Michael Kraus)
7. 03:29 PM - Re: Panel Choice (Carl Froehlich)
8. 03:32 PM - Re: Panel Choice (Bob Turner)
9. 03:49 PM - Re: Panel Choice (Bob Turner)
10. 04:02 PM - Re: Panel Choice (Bob Turner)
11. 04:13 PM - Re: Panel Choice (Strasnuts)
12. 04:15 PM - Re: Panel Choice (Strasnuts)
13. 05:26 PM - Re: Battery choice (Thane States)
14. 05:52 PM - Re: Panel Choice (Bob Turner)
15. 06:08 PM - Re: Re: Panel Choice (Carl Froehlich)
16. 06:46 PM - Re: RV10-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 10/21/11 (Eli Stefansky)
17. 06:59 PM - Re: Unsub (Kelly McMullen)
18. 07:15 PM - Re: Re: 2011 Copperstate RV10 Nest (Kelly McMullen)
19. 08:03 PM - Re: Panel Choice (nukeflyboy)
20. 08:12 PM - Re: 2011 Copperstate RV10 Nest (woxofswa)
21. 08:26 PM - Re: Re: Panel Choice (Kelly McMullen)
22. 08:28 PM - Re: Re: 2011 Copperstate RV10 Nest (Kelly McMullen)
23. 08:56 PM - Re: Re: 2011 Copperstate RV10 Nest (Jim Beyer)
24. 10:31 PM - Re: Panel Choice (Strasnuts)
Message 1
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There has been a lot of discussion in the past, but I'm now faced with replacing
my battery and was wondering what the latest opinions are now that there are
a number of years on a lot of the airplanes. I've got the standard Concorde
RG-25XC in the airplane now and it's been great for the past 6 years but it's
running out of steam. I know a number of you are running the Odyssey battery
but is seems like most folks are using two. My system has no need for a backup
battery so I was wondering what the thoughts were on a single Odyssey PC-625.
If the 925 is more appropriate I'll probably stick with the Concorde as they
are similar enough in price to avoid the installation change, but the 625 would
be cost effective for the mods.
Thanks
Marcus
40286
530hrs
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| Subject: | Re: Battery choice |
Wow........ Six years from a battery. It does not get much better than that.
I like the Concorde batteries and they have proven to be reliable in the past.
Why mess with success! Saving a few bucks on the Oddysey is a nice option, but
why bother when your operating costs are about $100/hr.
--------
See you OSH '12
Q/B - flying 2 yrs.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355734#355734
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I recently went through the tribulations of deciding what to put in my panel.
The good news is that we have a lot of choices. The bad news is that we have
a lot of choices, and the decisions are not easy. The other bad news is that
you can either spend a lot of money or a whole lot of money. Here is one mans
experience for the edification of those yet to come.
I had been paying attention to what others were buying/flying and tried to do my
homework by checking the websites and list traffic. My intent was to use an
all glass panel with IFR capability centered on a GNS-430 or 530. My other intent
was to not spend a fortune. I am a working stiff and have to pay attention
to cost. My criterion was not to buy the best available but to get the best
functionality for the cost. A key part of my plan was to buy nothing until
the last minute. This summer it became the last minute since besides cosmetic
work all that remains on the 10 are attaching the wings, seats, and engine sensors.
My neighbors have experience with Grand Rapids, MGL, and Advanced systems, and
Garmin can be found in many of the spam cans. I have visited their booths at
OSH over the last several years and watched as new capabilities were added at
a rapid pace. At this point the differences between them are really minimal in
terms of functionality. It eventually boiled down to cost and preference.
MGL: I think these are good units but for reasons I cant articulate, I never warmed
up to them. At OSH 2010 an avionics dealer told me that they needed to
work out some design issues which I understand they have done.
Advanced: Excellent units. For a while I thought that a 2 screen AF-5600 would
be the choice and they really would look nice in the panel. (See Robs RV-10
with the 5600 upgrade- beautiful!). Functionality and support are excellent
and I like the knobology (button pushing) slightly better than the GRT (particularly
on the 5600 and 5500).
GRT: Two of my neighbors have been flying behind GRT systems for several years
and they love them. They strongly recommended the GRT units. Again excellent
functionality and support. As far as capability I would rank AFS and GRT
as equals.
Navigator: I had intended to install a GNS-430 or 530 but a couple months before
OSH they announced the GTN-650 and 750. I liked them and decided to go with
the GTN-650. I could not cost justify the 750 since all my buds say they rarely
look at the navigator, instead focusing on the PFD/MFD. This anchored one
decision.
Before OSH I kept bouncing between AFS and GRT, and figured I would make the decision
once I visited their booths. Once I got there, it just made my head hurt
more. The problem got worse when I went by the Garmin booth, which I always
do at OSH. They set up their outside tent for experimental stuff and parked
next to it was Doug Reeves RV-6 with G3X system. I dont normally pay a whole
lot of attention to the Garmin systems because they are so expensive and out
of reach with my budget. They also require an avionics shop to make the harnesses,
which I was considering doing myself. Then I saw a sign that said 2 screen
G3X system for $8500. Wait a minute, thats about half what I had guessed.
I looked at Dougs panel some more and continued going between the GRT and AFS
booths. I knew there were other downsides with Garmin like costly map updates
(which GRT and AFS give away).
It is a given that for IFR you have to pay for the Jepp updates in the GNS-430/530/650/750.
I know of no other option. In addition I understood that to get
map updates on the Garmin PFD you had to buy another, separate subscription from
Jepp. As a result some folks do it just once a year or so. Then the Garmin
guy tells me that they struck a deal with Jepp. With the GTN-650/750 one subscription
covers both the navigator updates (GTN-650) and map updates (G3X).
No additional cost. One downside just disappeared. Im back looking at Dougs
panel. Then Stein tells me that Garmin has relented and now lets builders make
their own harnesses. The caveat: only experimental stuff (like the G3X) and
only if the builder calls the avionics dealer for assistance. They dont want
to be bothered with builders problems and troubleshooting due to installation
errors. The installation manuals now have public access.
Functionality
They all have synthetic vision, moving maps, XM weather interface, capability of
coupled approaches with a good autopilot, and good engine monitors. There are
differences between the Garmin G3X and GRT/AFS systems which give upticks to
Garmin. The G3X has geo-referenced approach plates and taxi diagrams (Safe
Taxi) and the AOPA airport directory. Neither GRT nor AFS have these built in.
Another difference is the format of Garmin vs. GRT/AFS. The Garmin is portrait
while the others have a landscape look, meaning they are wider than tall. One
of my friends that is building a RV-10 ruled out the G3X for this reason alone.
I have to say that I also prefer the landscape format, but not that strongly.
What about number of screens? I liked the symmetry of twin AF-5600 screens (in
front of each seat). However I had near unanimous opinion that two screens in
front of the pilot is better: one for flight instruments and the other for navigation/WX/engine.
The AF-5600 is nearly as big as some two screens in terms
of square inches, but what if it craps out? Here is where I deferred to experience
since I have over 1,000 hours, but all behind round gages. I will go
with 2 screens in front of the pilot. This ruled out the AF-5600 due to insufficient
real estate.
Cost
So now what? Functionality is similar. Sometimes you pick one just because.
None spoke to me like that so the brain goes to the next factor: whats the cost?
Here there was a difference and not a trivial one.
Price comparisons are not easy. Each company bundles the features differently,
some included, some not. For example XM costs $800 for the AFS, $550 for the
GRT, and it is included in the G3X price. The number of AHRS may be different.
Some charge for maps, some not. I tried to get a reasonable comparison and
calculated the cost. The comparison was for 2 screens, XM, synthetic vision,
moving map, single AHRS, engine monitor, and engine sensors for the IO-540.
If you used the AF-5500 screens then the AFS system cost is about $14,500. The
same thing with GRT (Horizon 8.4 inch) it was about $15,950. A two screen
G3X similarly configured came to $10,200. Wait a minute that is a big price
difference. What if I wanted to add a third G3X screen? $2500 and just plug
it in. That means the cost for a 3 screen G3X is $12,800, or about $1700-$3000
less than 2 screen AFS/GRT setups. The maintenance costs (database upgrades)
are equal so in the end cost factored high. I went with the G3X. Upside: geo-reference
plates and taxi diagrams, 3 screens that fit the panel nicely, cost
less. Downside: portrait format, and Im feeding the gorilla.
(Note that the above are for comparisons for the time I was shopping, there are
minor adjustments to the equipment, and rounding may not make the math perfect.
Prices appear to have changed for the GRT, coming down significantly based
on their website today. You can usually get a 5% discount using a check and
you may be able to negotiate a better deal.)
The Rest of the Panel more decisions:
Autopilot: Went with the GX Pilot which is made for the G3X. There are others
with slightly more features, but they cost a lot more.
Transponder: GTX-23ES remotely installed (behind baggage), operated from the G3X
, mode S, partial ADS-B, and not a bad price. Experimental only.
Com2: SL-40. Dont need the second VOR.
Audio panel: PMA 5000EX. Note that if you get a GTN-750 you can use a remote Garmin
audio panel.
Standby instruments: a Dynon D-6 with battery backup, completely independent.
No round gages on my panel and the D-6 cost less than the 3 gage backups seen
in many glass panels.
ELT: ACK E-04 406 MHz
ADS-B: Im waiting for the Garmin model to come out. Garmin blocks the NavWorx
interface which is the only full capability ADS-B out there. The NavWorks does
interface with GRT/AFS. The Garmin folks told me it will be released soon.
I only have 7 switches, 24 circuit breakers, and there is room for a large glove
box and power plug.
There is another choice you must make and that is to go with pre-made harnesses
or make your own. The Approach Fast Stack hubs are really nice and provide flexibility.
Stein will also make the harnesses for you. As Stein says, it isnt
hard to do you just trade money for time. Figure $2000 - $1000 for harnesses
depending on with or without Fast Stack hub. Im making my own and even then
it is not cheap. Crimper: $400, wire: $300 - $400.
Suggestions
1. Wait to the very last minute to buy. Functionality goes up and cost goes down
frequently.
2. If cost doesnt matter then there are other choices that you may like even better.
3. I dont think there is a right or wrong choice. They are all good.
4. There may be other reasons to pick (I just like it!). Emotional reasons are
good too.
5. Dont attach your upper forward fuselage assembly/center cabin brace before
the panel is done. This allows you to remove the entire instrument panel section
to work it on the bench.
The above was my experience over the July-September time frame prices and capabilities
have probably changed since then. I hope I got the facts right and invite
other comparisons and opinions. This is meant to help the next one to make
a decision and to not make their head hurt like mine did.
--------
Dave Moore
RV-6 flying
RV-10 QB - Working G3X panel
Rest almost done
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355740#355740
Message 4
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Dave,
Sounds like you covered it all. And as you said best to wait till the very last
minute. We all seem to have to go through this to get to our final decision.
I ended up doing something similar going with the G900X in the -10 (4 years ago)
and a dual G3X in the 8A. Unfortunately I was one of the very last 430W buyers.
I was kicking myself for not getting the 530W then I saw the 650/750. A little
steam came out of my ears when they were released. I have to take issue
with your decision to pass on the 750 because of the way your friends use their
system. I think the 650/750 are different animals and because of all the touch
interface usage (LOVE the glass alpha/numeric entry) plus the large screen
that 750 is an amazing unit. I played with it for 90 minutes at the Garmin store
in Chicago. I can definitely see the value of the extra real-estate. Especially
when you realize how the G3X works with the external GPS signal.
You might want to look as Sean's 3 screen G3X panel. Beautiful final product.
Good luck with your panel build.
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nukeflyboy
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 1:27 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Panel Choice
I recently went through the tribulations of deciding what to put in my panel.
The good news is that we have a lot of choices. The bad news is that we have
a lot of choices, and the decisions are not easy. The other bad news is that
you can either spend a lot of money or a whole lot of money. Here is one mans
experience for the edification of those yet to come.
I had been paying attention to what others were buying/flying and tried to do my
homework by checking the websites and list traffic. My intent was to use an
all glass panel with IFR capability centered on a GNS-430 or 530. My other intent
was to not spend a fortune. I am a working stiff and have to pay attention
to cost. My criterion was not to buy the best available but to get the best
functionality for the cost. A key part of my plan was to buy nothing until
the last minute. This summer it became the last minute since besides cosmetic
work all that remains on the 10 are attaching the wings, seats, and engine sensors.
My neighbors have experience with Grand Rapids, MGL, and Advanced systems, and
Garmin can be found in many of the spam cans. I have visited their booths at
OSH over the last several years and watched as new capabilities were added at
a rapid pace. At this point the differences between them are really minimal in
terms of functionality. It eventually boiled down to cost and preference.
MGL: I think these are good units but for reasons I cant articulate, I never warmed
up to them. At OSH 2010 an avionics dealer told me that they needed to
work out some design issues which I understand they have done.
Advanced: Excellent units. For a while I thought that a 2 screen AF-5600 would
be the choice and they really would look nice in the panel. (See Robs RV-10
with the 5600 upgrade- beautiful!). Functionality and support are excellent
and I like the knobology (button pushing) slightly better than the GRT (particularly
on the 5600 and 5500).
GRT: Two of my neighbors have been flying behind GRT systems for several years
and they love them. They strongly recommended the GRT units. Again excellent
functionality and support. As far as capability I would rank AFS and GRT
as equals.
Navigator: I had intended to install a GNS-430 or 530 but a couple months before
OSH they announced the GTN-650 and 750. I liked them and decided to go with
the GTN-650. I could not cost justify the 750 since all my buds say they rarely
look at the navigator, instead focusing on the PFD/MFD. This anchored one
decision.
Before OSH I kept bouncing between AFS and GRT, and figured I would make the decision
once I visited their booths. Once I got there, it just made my head hurt
more. The problem got worse when I went by the Garmin booth, which I always
do at OSH. They set up their outside tent for experimental stuff and parked
next to it was Doug Reeves RV-6 with G3X system. I dont normally pay a whole
lot of attention to the Garmin systems because they are so expensive and out
of reach with my budget. They also require an avionics shop to make the harnesses,
which I was considering doing myself. Then I saw a sign that said 2 screen
G3X system for $8500. Wait a minute, thats about half what I had guessed.
I looked at Dougs panel some more and continued going between the GRT and AFS
booths. I knew there were other downsides with Garmin like costly map updates
(which GRT and AFS give away).
It is a given that for IFR you have to pay for the Jepp updates in the GNS-430/530/650/750.
I know of no other option. In addition I understood that to get
map updates on the Garmin PFD you had to buy another, separate subscription from
Jepp. As a result some folks do it just once a year or so. Then the Garmin
guy tells me that they struck a deal with Jepp. With the GTN-650/750 one subscription
covers both the navigator updates (GTN-650) and map updates (G3X).
No additional cost. One downside just disappeared. Im back looking at Dougs
panel. Then Stein tells me that Garmin has relented and now lets builders make
their own harnesses. The caveat: only experimental stuff (like the G3X) and
only if the builder calls the avionics dealer for assistance. They dont want
to be bothered with builders problems and troubleshooting due to installation
errors. The installation manuals now have public access.
Functionality
They all have synthetic vision, moving maps, XM weather interface, capability of
coupled approaches with a good autopilot, and good engine monitors. There are
differences between the Garmin G3X and GRT/AFS systems which give upticks to
Garmin. The G3X has geo-referenced approach plates and taxi diagrams (Safe
Taxi) and the AOPA airport directory. Neither GRT nor AFS have these built in.
Another difference is the format of Garmin vs. GRT/AFS. The Garmin is portrait
while the others have a landscape look, meaning they are wider than tall. One
of my friends that is building a RV-10 ruled out the G3X for this reason alone.
I have to say that I also prefer the landscape format, but not that strongly.
What about number of screens? I liked the symmetry of twin AF-5600 screens (in
front of each seat). However I had near unanimous opinion that two screens in
front of the pilot is better: one for flight instruments and the other for navigation/WX/engine.
The AF-5600 is nearly as big as some two screens in terms
of square inches, but what if it craps out? Here is where I deferred to experience
since I have over 1,000 hours, but all behind round gages. I will go
with 2 screens in front of the pilot. This ruled out the AF-5600 due to insufficient
real estate.
Cost
So now what? Functionality is similar. Sometimes you pick one just because.
None spoke to me like that so the brain goes to the next factor: whats the cost?
Here there was a difference and not a trivial one.
Price comparisons are not easy. Each company bundles the features differently,
some included, some not. For example XM costs $800 for the AFS, $550 for the
GRT, and it is included in the G3X price. The number of AHRS may be different.
Some charge for maps, some not. I tried to get a reasonable comparison and
calculated the cost. The comparison was for 2 screens, XM, synthetic vision,
moving map, single AHRS, engine monitor, and engine sensors for the IO-540.
If you used the AF-5500 screens then the AFS system cost is about $14,500. The
same thing with GRT (Horizon 8.4 inch) it was about $15,950. A two screen
G3X similarly configured came to $10,200. Wait a minute that is a big price
difference. What if I wanted to add a third G3X screen? $2500 and just plug
it in. That means the cost for a 3 screen G3X is $12,800, or about $1700-$3000
less than 2 screen AFS/GRT setups. The maintenance costs (database upgrades)
are equal so in the end cost factored high. I !
went with the G3X. Upside: geo-reference plates and taxi diagrams, 3 screens
that fit the panel nicely, cost less. Downside: portrait format, and Im feeding
the gorilla.
(Note that the above are for comparisons for the time I was shopping, there are
minor adjustments to the equipment, and rounding may not make the math perfect.
Prices appear to have changed for the GRT, coming down significantly based
on their website today. You can usually get a 5% discount using a check and
you may be able to negotiate a better deal.)
The Rest of the Panel more decisions:
Autopilot: Went with the GX Pilot which is made for the G3X. There are others
with slightly more features, but they cost a lot more.
Transponder: GTX-23ES remotely installed (behind baggage), operated from the G3X
, mode S, partial ADS-B, and not a bad price. Experimental only.
Com2: SL-40. Dont need the second VOR.
Audio panel: PMA 5000EX. Note that if you get a GTN-750 you can use a remote Garmin
audio panel.
Standby instruments: a Dynon D-6 with battery backup, completely independent.
No round gages on my panel and the D-6 cost less than the 3 gage backups seen
in many glass panels.
ELT: ACK E-04 406 MHz
ADS-B: Im waiting for the Garmin model to come out. Garmin blocks the NavWorx
interface which is the only full capability ADS-B out there. The NavWorks does
interface with GRT/AFS. The Garmin folks told me it will be released soon.
I only have 7 switches, 24 circuit breakers, and there is room for a large glove
box and power plug.
There is another choice you must make and that is to go with pre-made harnesses
or make your own. The Approach Fast Stack hubs are really nice and provide flexibility.
Stein will also make the harnesses for you. As Stein says, it isnt
hard to do you just trade money for time. Figure $2000 - $1000 for harnesses
depending on with or without Fast Stack hub. Im making my own and even then
it is not cheap. Crimper: $400, wire: $300 - $400.
Suggestions
1. Wait to the very last minute to buy. Functionality goes up and cost goes down
frequently.
2. If cost doesnt matter then there are other choices that you may like even better.
3. I dont think there is a right or wrong choice. They are all good.
4. There may be other reasons to pick (I just like it!). Emotional reasons are
good too.
5. Dont attach your upper forward fuselage assembly/center cabin brace before
the panel is done. This allows you to remove the entire instrument panel section
to work it on the bench.
The above was my experience over the July-September time frame prices and capabilities
have probably changed since then. I hope I got the facts right and invite
other comparisons and opinions. This is meant to help the next one to make
a decision and to not make their head hurt like mine did.
--------
Dave Moore
RV-6 flying
RV-10 QB - Working G3X panel
Rest almost done
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355740#355740
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Battery choice |
I too am impressed with 6 years from an aircraft battery!
I'm running a single PC-925 but I've only had it for a year or so (8 months on
a charger testing avionics, 4 months flying) so too soon to tell anything about
its lifetime. It certainly turns the engine over on starting very well, no hesitation
at all.
The installation change over from the Concord can be pretty easy. Odyssey says
it's okay to mount the battery on its side, which I've done. On its side it's
a good fit to the battery tray, with the only mod being a 1" or so spacer at the
fore or aft end of the tray. You'll also need new #2 cables to ground and the
master relay, as the Odyssey battery needs 1/4" lugs (not 5/16) on the cables.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355742#355742
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Choice |
I'm astonished that in all that research you didn't seem to consider the Dynon
Skyview.....
Do not archive
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 22, 2011, at 4:27 PM, "nukeflyboy" <flymoore@charter.net> wrote:
>
> I recently went through the tribulations of deciding what to put in my panel.
The good news is that we have a lot of choices. The bad news is that we have
a lot of choices, and the decisions are not easy. The other bad news is that
you can either spend a lot of money or a whole lot of money. Here is one mans
experience for the edification of those yet to come.
>
> I had been paying attention to what others were buying/flying and tried to do
my homework by checking the websites and list traffic. My intent was to use
an all glass panel with IFR capability centered on a GNS-430 or 530. My other
intent was to not spend a fortune. I am a working stiff and have to pay attention
to cost. My criterion was not to buy the best available but to get the
best functionality for the cost. A key part of my plan was to buy nothing until
the last minute. This summer it became the last minute since besides cosmetic
work all that remains on the 10 are attaching the wings, seats, and engine
sensors.
>
> My neighbors have experience with Grand Rapids, MGL, and Advanced systems, and
Garmin can be found in many of the spam cans. I have visited their booths at
OSH over the last several years and watched as new capabilities were added at
a rapid pace. At this point the differences between them are really minimal
in terms of functionality. It eventually boiled down to cost and preference.
>
> MGL: I think these are good units but for reasons I cant articulate, I never
warmed up to them. At OSH 2010 an avionics dealer told me that they needed to
work out some design issues which I understand they have done.
>
> Advanced: Excellent units. For a while I thought that a 2 screen AF-5600 would
be the choice and they really would look nice in the panel. (See Robs RV-10
with the 5600 upgrade- beautiful!). Functionality and support are excellent
and I like the knobology (button pushing) slightly better than the GRT (particularly
on the 5600 and 5500).
>
> GRT: Two of my neighbors have been flying behind GRT systems for several years
and they love them. They strongly recommended the GRT units. Again excellent
functionality and support. As far as capability I would rank AFS and GRT
as equals.
>
> Navigator: I had intended to install a GNS-430 or 530 but a couple months before
OSH they announced the GTN-650 and 750. I liked them and decided to go with
the GTN-650. I could not cost justify the 750 since all my buds say they
rarely look at the navigator, instead focusing on the PFD/MFD. This anchored
one decision.
>
> Before OSH I kept bouncing between AFS and GRT, and figured I would make the
decision once I visited their booths. Once I got there, it just made my head
hurt more. The problem got worse when I went by the Garmin booth, which I always
do at OSH. They set up their outside tent for experimental stuff and parked
next to it was Doug Reeves RV-6 with G3X system. I dont normally pay a whole
lot of attention to the Garmin systems because they are so expensive and out
of reach with my budget. They also require an avionics shop to make the harnesses,
which I was considering doing myself. Then I saw a sign that said 2 screen
G3X system for $8500. Wait a minute, thats about half what I had guessed.
I looked at Dougs panel some more and continued going between the GRT and
AFS booths. I knew there were other downsides with Garmin like costly map updates
(which GRT and AFS give away).
>
> It is a given that for IFR you have to pay for the Jepp updates in the GNS-430/530/650/750.
I know of no other option. In addition I understood that to get
map updates on the Garmin PFD you had to buy another, separate subscription
from Jepp. As a result some folks do it just once a year or so. Then the Garmin
guy tells me that they struck a deal with Jepp. With the GTN-650/750 one
subscription covers both the navigator updates (GTN-650) and map updates (G3X).
No additional cost. One downside just disappeared. Im back looking at Dougs
panel. Then Stein tells me that Garmin has relented and now lets builders
make their own harnesses. The caveat: only experimental stuff (like the G3X)
and only if the builder calls the avionics dealer for assistance. They dont
want to be bothered with builders problems and troubleshooting due to installation
errors. The installation manuals now have public access.
>
> Functionality
>
> They all have synthetic vision, moving maps, XM weather interface, capability
of coupled approaches with a good autopilot, and good engine monitors. There
are differences between the Garmin G3X and GRT/AFS systems which give upticks
to Garmin. The G3X has geo-referenced approach plates and taxi diagrams (Safe
Taxi) and the AOPA airport directory. Neither GRT nor AFS have these built
in.
> Another difference is the format of Garmin vs. GRT/AFS. The Garmin is portrait
while the others have a landscape look, meaning they are wider than tall.
One of my friends that is building a RV-10 ruled out the G3X for this reason alone.
I have to say that I also prefer the landscape format, but not that strongly.
>
> What about number of screens? I liked the symmetry of twin AF-5600 screens (in
front of each seat). However I had near unanimous opinion that two screens
in front of the pilot is better: one for flight instruments and the other for
navigation/WX/engine. The AF-5600 is nearly as big as some two screens in terms
of square inches, but what if it craps out? Here is where I deferred to
experience since I have over 1,000 hours, but all behind round gages. I will
go with 2 screens in front of the pilot. This ruled out the AF-5600 due to insufficient
real estate.
>
> Cost
>
> So now what? Functionality is similar. Sometimes you pick one just because.
None spoke to me like that so the brain goes to the next factor: whats the cost?
Here there was a difference and not a trivial one.
> Price comparisons are not easy. Each company bundles the features differently,
some included, some not. For example XM costs $800 for the AFS, $550 for the
GRT, and it is included in the G3X price. The number of AHRS may be different.
Some charge for maps, some not. I tried to get a reasonable comparison
and calculated the cost. The comparison was for 2 screens, XM, synthetic vision,
moving map, single AHRS, engine monitor, and engine sensors for the IO-540.
If you used the AF-5500 screens then the AFS system cost is about $14,500.
The same thing with GRT (Horizon 8.4 inch) it was about $15,950. A two screen
G3X similarly configured came to $10,200. Wait a minute that is a big price
difference. What if I wanted to add a third G3X screen? $2500 and just plug
it in. That means the cost for a 3 screen G3X is $12,800, or about $1700-$3000
less than 2 screen AFS/GRT setups. The maintenance costs (database upgrades)
are equal so in the end cost factored high. I went with the G3X. Upside:
geo-reference plates and taxi diagrams, 3 screens that fit the panel nicely,
cost less. Downside: portrait format, and Im feeding the gorilla.
>
> (Note that the above are for comparisons for the time I was shopping, there are
minor adjustments to the equipment, and rounding may not make the math perfect.
Prices appear to have changed for the GRT, coming down significantly based
on their website today. You can usually get a 5% discount using a check and
you may be able to negotiate a better deal.)
>
> The Rest of the Panel more decisions:
> Autopilot: Went with the GX Pilot which is made for the G3X. There are others
with slightly more features, but they cost a lot more.
> Transponder: GTX-23ES remotely installed (behind baggage), operated from the
G3X , mode S, partial ADS-B, and not a bad price. Experimental only.
> Com2: SL-40. Dont need the second VOR.
> Audio panel: PMA 5000EX. Note that if you get a GTN-750 you can use a remote
Garmin audio panel.
> Standby instruments: a Dynon D-6 with battery backup, completely independent.
No round gages on my panel and the D-6 cost less than the 3 gage backups seen
in many glass panels.
> ELT: ACK E-04 406 MHz
> ADS-B: Im waiting for the Garmin model to come out. Garmin blocks the NavWorx
interface which is the only full capability ADS-B out there. The NavWorks does
interface with GRT/AFS. The Garmin folks told me it will be released soon.
>
> I only have 7 switches, 24 circuit breakers, and there is room for a large glove
box and power plug.
>
> There is another choice you must make and that is to go with pre-made harnesses
or make your own. The Approach Fast Stack hubs are really nice and provide
flexibility. Stein will also make the harnesses for you. As Stein says, it
isnt hard to do you just trade money for time. Figure $2000 - $1000 for harnesses
depending on with or without Fast Stack hub. Im making my own and even
then it is not cheap. Crimper: $400, wire: $300 - $400.
>
> Suggestions
> 1. Wait to the very last minute to buy. Functionality goes up and cost goes
down frequently.
> 2. If cost doesnt matter then there are other choices that you may like even
better.
> 3. I dont think there is a right or wrong choice. They are all good.
> 4. There may be other reasons to pick (I just like it!). Emotional reasons
are good too.
> 5. Dont attach your upper forward fuselage assembly/center cabin brace before
the panel is done. This allows you to remove the entire instrument panel section
to work it on the bench.
>
> The above was my experience over the July-September time frame prices and capabilities
have probably changed since then. I hope I got the facts right and
invite other comparisons and opinions. This is meant to help the next one to
make a decision and to not make their head hurt like mine did.
>
> --------
> Dave Moore
> RV-6 flying
> RV-10 QB - Working G3X panel
> Rest almost done
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355740#355740
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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I went through this decision process last year. It can get painful.
My criteria was similar to yours - and with "biggest bang for the buck" as the
overriding factor. I really like GRT but consider the autopilot too pricey, and
after you all it all up the GRT system was out of my price range. I decided
to go with the Dynon Skyview for the following reasons:
- I have a small Dynon EFIS in my RV-8A. It works perfectly and the customer support
I received is better than any vendor I have worked with.
- Dynon does their own autopilot - so total autopilot cost is $1500 as compared
to $4000+ with the other options and pilot reports on the units are good.
- Dynon offers a mode S behind the panel transponder - you save $1000 over the
Garmin option and have more panel space. The unit is well known and has a very
good reputation.
- Dynon will soon provide a behind the panel comm radio. Again you save cash and
panel space for the Comm #2 requirement. The EFIS itself fulfills the Nav
2 function as it has an independent GPS system.
- With the (2) 10" displays you are still below the other options cost and you
get a better visual presentation.
- I choose the Garmin GNS-670. I got it from Stark avionics at a very nice price.
So the panel has (2) 10" EFIS displays, and audio panel, the GNS-670, and altimeter
and an airspeed instrument (I could not get myself to go without these two
steam gauges).
This install is not to be confused with a G1000 or similar panel - but it meets
my needs and price range.
Carl
Just finished clear coat on the fuselage a couple of hours ago.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nukeflyboy
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 4:27 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Panel Choice
I recently went through the tribulations of deciding what to put in my panel.
The good news is that we have a lot of choices. The bad news is that we have
a lot of choices, and the decisions are not easy. The other bad news is that
you can either spend a lot of money or a whole lot of money. Here is one mans
experience for the edification of those yet to come.
I had been paying attention to what others were buying/flying and tried to do my
homework by checking the websites and list traffic. My intent was to use an
all glass panel with IFR capability centered on a GNS-430 or 530. My other intent
was to not spend a fortune. I am a working stiff and have to pay attention
to cost. My criterion was not to buy the best available but to get the best
functionality for the cost. A key part of my plan was to buy nothing until
the last minute. This summer it became the last minute since besides cosmetic
work all that remains on the 10 are attaching the wings, seats, and engine sensors.
My neighbors have experience with Grand Rapids, MGL, and Advanced systems, and
Garmin can be found in many of the spam cans. I have visited their booths at
OSH over the last several years and watched as new capabilities were added at
a rapid pace. At this point the differences between them are really minimal in
terms of functionality. It eventually boiled down to cost and preference.
MGL: I think these are good units but for reasons I cant articulate, I never warmed
up to them. At OSH 2010 an avionics dealer told me that they needed to
work out some design issues which I understand they have done.
Advanced: Excellent units. For a while I thought that a 2 screen AF-5600 would
be the choice and they really would look nice in the panel. (See Robs RV-10
with the 5600 upgrade- beautiful!). Functionality and support are excellent
and I like the knobology (button pushing) slightly better than the GRT (particularly
on the 5600 and 5500).
GRT: Two of my neighbors have been flying behind GRT systems for several years
and they love them. They strongly recommended the GRT units. Again excellent
functionality and support. As far as capability I would rank AFS and GRT
as equals.
Navigator: I had intended to install a GNS-430 or 530 but a couple months before
OSH they announced the GTN-650 and 750. I liked them and decided to go with
the GTN-650. I could not cost justify the 750 since all my buds say they rarely
look at the navigator, instead focusing on the PFD/MFD. This anchored one
decision.
Before OSH I kept bouncing between AFS and GRT, and figured I would make the decision
once I visited their booths. Once I got there, it just made my head hurt
more. The problem got worse when I went by the Garmin booth, which I always
do at OSH. They set up their outside tent for experimental stuff and parked
next to it was Doug Reeves RV-6 with G3X system. I dont normally pay a whole
lot of attention to the Garmin systems because they are so expensive and out
of reach with my budget. They also require an avionics shop to make the harnesses,
which I was considering doing myself. Then I saw a sign that said 2 screen
G3X system for $8500. Wait a minute, thats about half what I had guessed.
I looked at Dougs panel some more and continued going between the GRT and AFS
booths. I knew there were other downsides with Garmin like costly map updates
(which GRT and AFS give away).
It is a given that for IFR you have to pay for the Jepp updates in the GNS-430/530/650/750.
I know of no other option. In addition I understood that to get
map updates on the Garmin PFD you had to buy another, separate subscription from
Jepp. As a result some folks do it just once a year or so. Then the Garmin
guy tells me that they struck a deal with Jepp. With the GTN-650/750 one subscription
covers both the navigator updates (GTN-650) and map updates (G3X).
No additional cost. One downside just disappeared. Im back looking at Dougs
panel. Then Stein tells me that Garmin has relented and now lets builders make
their own harnesses. The caveat: only experimental stuff (like the G3X) and
only if the builder calls the avionics dealer for assistance. They dont want
to be bothered with builders problems and troubleshooting due to installation
errors. The installation manuals now have public access.
Functionality
They all have synthetic vision, moving maps, XM weather interface, capability of
coupled approaches with a good autopilot, and good engine monitors. There are
differences between the Garmin G3X and GRT/AFS systems which give upticks to
Garmin. The G3X has geo-referenced approach plates and taxi diagrams (Safe
Taxi) and the AOPA airport directory. Neither GRT nor AFS have these built in.
Another difference is the format of Garmin vs. GRT/AFS. The Garmin is portrait
while the others have a landscape look, meaning they are wider than tall. One
of my friends that is building a RV-10 ruled out the G3X for this reason alone.
I have to say that I also prefer the landscape format, but not that strongly.
What about number of screens? I liked the symmetry of twin AF-5600 screens (in
front of each seat). However I had near unanimous opinion that two screens in
front of the pilot is better: one for flight instruments and the other for navigation/WX/engine.
The AF-5600 is nearly as big as some two screens in terms
of square inches, but what if it craps out? Here is where I deferred to experience
since I have over 1,000 hours, but all behind round gages. I will go
with 2 screens in front of the pilot. This ruled out the AF-5600 due to insufficient
real estate.
Cost
So now what? Functionality is similar. Sometimes you pick one just because.
None spoke to me like that so the brain goes to the next factor: whats the cost?
Here there was a difference and not a trivial one.
Price comparisons are not easy. Each company bundles the features differently,
some included, some not. For example XM costs $800 for the AFS, $550 for the
GRT, and it is included in the G3X price. The number of AHRS may be different.
Some charge for maps, some not. I tried to get a reasonable comparison and
calculated the cost. The comparison was for 2 screens, XM, synthetic vision,
moving map, single AHRS, engine monitor, and engine sensors for the IO-540.
If you used the AF-5500 screens then the AFS system cost is about $14,500. The
same thing with GRT (Horizon 8.4 inch) it was about $15,950. A two screen
G3X similarly configured came to $10,200. Wait a minute that is a big price
difference. What if I wanted to add a third G3X screen? $2500 and just plug
it in. That means the cost for a 3 screen G3X is $12,800, or about $1700-$3000
less than 2 screen AFS/GRT setups. The maintenance costs (database upgrades)
are equal so in the end cost factored high. I !
went with the G3X. Upside: geo-reference plates and taxi diagrams, 3 screens
that fit the panel nicely, cost less. Downside: portrait format, and Im feeding
the gorilla.
(Note that the above are for comparisons for the time I was shopping, there are
minor adjustments to the equipment, and rounding may not make the math perfect.
Prices appear to have changed for the GRT, coming down significantly based
on their website today. You can usually get a 5% discount using a check and
you may be able to negotiate a better deal.)
The Rest of the Panel more decisions:
Autopilot: Went with the GX Pilot which is made for the G3X. There are others
with slightly more features, but they cost a lot more.
Transponder: GTX-23ES remotely installed (behind baggage), operated from the G3X
, mode S, partial ADS-B, and not a bad price. Experimental only.
Com2: SL-40. Dont need the second VOR.
Audio panel: PMA 5000EX. Note that if you get a GTN-750 you can use a remote Garmin
audio panel.
Standby instruments: a Dynon D-6 with battery backup, completely independent.
No round gages on my panel and the D-6 cost less than the 3 gage backups seen
in many glass panels.
ELT: ACK E-04 406 MHz
ADS-B: Im waiting for the Garmin model to come out. Garmin blocks the NavWorx
interface which is the only full capability ADS-B out there. The NavWorks does
interface with GRT/AFS. The Garmin folks told me it will be released soon.
I only have 7 switches, 24 circuit breakers, and there is room for a large glove
box and power plug.
There is another choice you must make and that is to go with pre-made harnesses
or make your own. The Approach Fast Stack hubs are really nice and provide flexibility.
Stein will also make the harnesses for you. As Stein says, it isnt
hard to do you just trade money for time. Figure $2000 - $1000 for harnesses
depending on with or without Fast Stack hub. Im making my own and even then
it is not cheap. Crimper: $400, wire: $300 - $400.
Suggestions
1. Wait to the very last minute to buy. Functionality goes up and cost goes down
frequently.
2. If cost doesnt matter then there are other choices that you may like even better.
3. I dont think there is a right or wrong choice. They are all good.
4. There may be other reasons to pick (I just like it!). Emotional reasons are
good too.
5. Dont attach your upper forward fuselage assembly/center cabin brace before
the panel is done. This allows you to remove the entire instrument panel section
to work it on the bench.
The above was my experience over the July-September time frame prices and capabilities
have probably changed since then. I hope I got the facts right and invite
other comparisons and opinions. This is meant to help the next one to make
a decision and to not make their head hurt like mine did.
--------
Dave Moore
RV-6 flying
RV-10 QB - Working G3X panel
Rest almost done
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355740#355740
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Choice |
I"m sure you'll get lots of responses. Keep in mind that it's human nature not
to be too critical of one's self, so everyone - myself included - will love what
they did!
The G3X was not available when I bought, and I must say, it looks attractively
priced. I have a secret fear that the EFIS companies may drive the autopilot companies
out of business, and that Garmin may then drive the EFIS companies out,
and then be left, again, as a monopoly...
Nor was the Sky View system out yet, when I started cutting metal....
I went with the GRT HX/HS pair, plus EIS. HX in front of left seat, HS right of
center but not fully in front of right seat. From lots of 182 hours I'm used
to looking to the right for engine instruments, so this works for me. I also like
the landscape mode and, unlike many others, I mounted the EFIS units relatively
low in the panel (the GRT fit with no cutting of ribs). This works for me
because I'm relatively short (seat one notch back from full forward) and I wear
bi-focals. With the EFIS low in the panel, my head is looking straight out
the windscreen but the EFIS is in focus. This won't work as well for those of
you young enough or lucky enough to not need bi-focals (yet!). I strongly recommend
everyone sit in the airplane at the proper height and location, and look
at paper mock ups, to see how it works for you.
I went with a SL-30/G420 (not 430) pair just to split the nav radios, so if one
quit I still had the other. The SL-40/G430 route would have saved almost a $1K.
Also, the SL-30 is a much better VOR than the 430, it can still be used following
a complete EFIS failure. It's also easier to wire.
Like you, I have a D-6 backup, and I've done an a VOR approach (hood, during IPC)
using just the D-6 and the SL-30 (using built in CDI), and that works fine.
I built my own audio panel. I'm surprised more builders don't do this. The PS panel
is a great audio panel (my former aircraft had one) but the do-it-yourself
route works just fine, I got what I wanted (independent volume controls for
pilot and passenger for intercom, radio, and music) and it cost about $50 and
3 days of my time.
I really like the Trio autopilot. Not sure about the G3 version, but the Trio Pro
can be ordered with "auto trim". Not only will it keep the elevator in trim
while the autopilot is on; it can also be used to trim, manually, even when the
servos are not engaged. The trim speed is adjustable by software to run slower
as airspeed picks up. I use it rather than the stick trim (which runs full
speed) to trim in cruise. It also provides a trim backup, should the stick switch
stick on and you need to pull the trim breaker. (It also makes for another
mode for trim runaway, so I put the autopilot and trim breakers together, right
in front of the pilot.)
I also really like the GRT EIS (engine instrument system). I put the red warning
light in front of the pilot. Let me be honest, I never used to look at the ammeter,
or even the oil pressure, that often in the 182. Now, the EIS looks for
me! (I think it's even more important to monitor the amps, in an all electric
plane). Coming from the "fuel on both" 182, the EIS also nags me every 30 minutes
to switch tanks. On start up, the red light is on; I switch on the alternator,
and the red light goes off. If it ever doesn't, I can look at the EIS to
see if it's oil pressure, alternator, or whatever that's an issue. No need to
wait for the EFIS to boot up. Although, at some point, I may put in a secondary
battery so I can boot up the EFIS prior to engine start.
Another comment: the independent dealers, like Stein, can usually get you a discount
from list prices, as well as good service.
Final comment: I riveted the front section in place before the avionics work. The
only trying work was anchoring the radio rack to the forward subpanel. So much
goes in from the front, I just left a little slack in the wiring, attached
the plugs then installed (from the front). I did have to reach up underneath
to bundle up the slack, but that wasn't that much of an ordeal.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355749#355749
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Choice |
I'm curious, is there any real world experience yet on how easy or hard the new
Garmin touch screens are to use, in turbulence?
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355753#355753
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Choice |
Carl,
Just to show how fast things change: what you said was true when you bought, a
year ago. But now GRT offers their own autopilot for about $2k or slightly less.
For a while they had an intro price of $1K.
This was why I commented that I fear Trio and TruTrak may be driven out of business
by the EFIS companies. Of course the EFIS driven autopilots do not have the
redundancy that a true stand-alone autopilot offers. If the EFIS quits, so
does their autopilot.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355754#355754
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Choice |
Dave, I have 115 hours on my 3 screen G3X and loving every minute of it. The
iBBS back-up battery works great with the system. The system has dedicated pinouts
for the iBBS. I also have the D6 as a AHRS/MAG back-up with an internal
battery. I was also one of the last 430W buyers but would jump on the GTN750
if it was available. I played with one too and super user friendly. A lot less
button pushing compared to the 430W or 530W. All the new jets have G1000/G3000/G5000
with touch pads so the touch screen is where it is going and turbulence
must not be a factor if these are getting approved. I think turning a knob
and pushing buttons in turbulence might be harder than using the grips and
pushing a touch screen but I have no real experience in turbulence while using
the touch screen. I seam to get by pushing my iphone touch screen while I'm
listening to music through my audio panel.
Here are some pics of mine . I need new ones to show my interior panels from Aerosport.
--------
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355755#355755
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/1229502042_8kynv_m_539.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/cockpit_571.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Choice |
As far as the ADS-b, I have both the in/out with the G3X. I have the GTS800 TAS
with ADS-b in and the GTX330(es) for the out. It's expensive compared to the
Navworx but includes active TAS and works everywhere.
--------
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
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| Subject: | Re: Battery choice |
Marcus, I have been running a pc-625. for the past 3 yrs. I live in the
South, so no cold WX cranking problems. I just changed it this year after3
+ yrs. I then put it in my Harley and it still works GRT. I personaly see
no need for the bigger battery, down in the warmer climates. Plus it saves
a bit of WGT. !!
Thane
RV-10
199 hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus Cooper" <coop85@verizon.net>
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 1:05 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Battery choice
>
> There has been a lot of discussion in the past, but I'm now faced with
> replacing my battery and was wondering what the latest opinions are now
> that there are a number of years on a lot of the airplanes. I've got the
> standard Concorde RG-25XC in the airplane now and it's been great for the
> past 6 years but it's running out of steam. I know a number of you are
> running the Odyssey battery but is seems like most folks are using two.
> My system has no need for a backup battery so I was wondering what the
> thoughts were on a single Odyssey PC-625. If the 925 is more appropriate
> I'll probably stick with the Concorde as they are similar enough in price
> to avoid the installation change, but the 625 would be cost effective for
> the mods.
>
> Thanks
> Marcus
> 40286
> 530hrs
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Choice |
I know nothing about the new Garmins except that they're touch screen. But two
people have now commented that they think the rather huge uptick in cost from
a 430 to a 750 is worthwhile. I'd like to know why, specifically. As far as I
can tell it gains you no capability, just ease of use.
I have flown behind a 530 and a 430, and, given that TIS and WX can be displayed
on an EFIS, I could not justify the cost of the 530 to myself.
So I, too, wish Garmin had introduced the 650/750 several years ago. But not so
I could buy one. Instead, I'd hope enough people traded in their 430's that I
could find a good used one at a great price! (Not sure that has happened yet).
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355762#355762
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Choice |
Yep - competition is a wonderful thing.
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Turner
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 6:59 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Panel Choice
Carl,
Just to show how fast things change: what you said was true when you bought,
a year ago. But now GRT offers their own autopilot for about $2k or slightly
less. For a while they had an intro price of $1K.
This was why I commented that I fear Trio and TruTrak may be driven out of
business by the EFIS companies. Of course the EFIS driven autopilots do not
have the redundancy that a true stand-alone autopilot offers. If the EFIS
quits, so does their autopilot.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355754#355754
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: RV10-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 10/21/11 |
please remove
Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE
------Original Message------
From: RV10-List Digest Server <rv10-list@matronics.com>
Subject: RV10-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 10/21/11
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=================================================
Today's complete RV10-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the RV10-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 11-10-21&Archive=RV10
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===============================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
===============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
RV10-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Fri 10/21/11: 9
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:46 AM - Fuel Leak (Dave Saylor)
2. 12:54 PM - Re: Fuel Leak (Linn Walters)
3. 12:54 PM - Re: Fuel Leak (davidsoutpost@comcast.net)
4. 01:35 PM - Re: Fuel Leak (Roger Standley)
5. 02:04 PM - Re: Fuel Leak (Dave Saylor)
6. 05:13 PM - Re: Fuel Leak (John Cumins)
7. 06:55 PM - Re: Fuel Leak (billz)
8. 07:26 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Leak (Phillip Perry)
9. 07:32 PM - Re: Fuel Leak (Dave Saylor)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
Time: 11:46:20 AM PST US
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Leak
Listers,
The other day on preflight I noticed a faint fuel smell in the cockpit. I
talked myself into thinking it was nothing, and the next day it was
stronger. Time to investigate.
I found a pretty good drip coming from the flare at the bottom of the fuel
valve. There was some staining and a little dampness on the bottom of the
tunnel, easily fixed with a flex hose.
It got me thinking again about the flap motor as an ignition source.
To date there have been at least three RV-10 cockpit fires. Now of course
keeping the fuel where it should be is key, but once it gets out, keeping it
from igniting seems like a good defense.
The flap motor in my RV-10 is described on the attached data sheet.
There are four 6-32 threaded holes in each end of the motor. Two are used
for mounting, one is blocked by the gearbox, leaving five that expose the
brushes to the tunnel atmosphere.
I wiped a little blob of silicone into the unused hole on the bottom of the
motor, and put AN515-6R4s and split lock-washers in the top holes. The
motor works fine, no issues with clearance. There's a picture of the motor
with the outer case taken off, which I wouldn't recommend doing. Now I
realize it's not necessary. I just included it to identify which hole was
plugged with silicone. Putting the brushes and shims back together wasn't
much fun.
I kind of doubt that this makes the motor officially "explosion proof" but I
don't see how it hurts and hopefully it's a tiny bit safer. Fixing the leak
was the best solution.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
Time: 12:54:05 PM PST US
From: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Leak
Wat caused the leak? Loose nut? Bad flare? Cracked tube?
Inquiring minds need to know.
Linn
On 10/21/2011 2:31 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
> Listers,
>
> The other day on preflight I noticed a faint fuel smell in the cockpit.
snip
>
> I kind of doubt that this makes the motor officially "explosion proof"
> but I don't see how it hurts and hopefully it's a tiny bit safer.
> Fixing the leak was the best solution.
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 <tel:831-722-9141> Shop
> 831-750-0284 <tel:831-750-0284> Cell
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
Time: 12:54:20 PM PST US
From: davidsoutpost@comcast.net
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Leak
Thanks Dave, good info. Did you find the source of the leak? Cracked flare
or what? Did you use Del Seals on your flares? Mine is all plumbed and I de
cided to keep to the stock aluminum fittings and tubing instead of hoses to
keep weight and costs down to a minimum. Those little things add up quick
weight wise and from experience building a Cozy MKIV, weight adds up really
quick with any deviations to plans. FWIW, we used all aluminum fuel lines
and fittings for the fuel system in the cockpit on the Cozy and used Del Se
als on all the flares on everything, FWF and aft including oil lines. Over
300 hours so far with no leaks. Careful attention to your flaring technique
's for quality flares, fitting alignment, and proper torque, are key ingred
ients to a simple, light weight, low cost plumbing system. Plumbing the bra
kes and fuel delivery system in the tunnel of the -10 gave me fits and I wa
s tempted more that once to just order up some hoses, but every time I thou
ght about the weight penalty kept me motivated to keep to plans and I am gl
ad I spent the time fabricating and scraping lots of tubing until I got it
right. Regardless, I WILL seal up the flap motor just in case!
David Clifford
RV-10 Builder
Howell, MI
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Saylor" <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 2:31:20 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Leak
Listers,
The other day on preflight I noticed a faint fuel smell in the cockpit. I t
alked myself into thinking it was nothing, and the next day it was stronger
. Time to investigate.
I found a pretty good drip coming from the flare at the bottom of the fuel
valve. There was some staining and a little dampness on the bottom of the t
unnel, easily fixed with a flex hose.
It got me thinking again about the flap motor as an ignition source.
To date there have been at least three RV-10 cockpit fires. Now of course k
eeping the fuel where it should be is key, but once it gets out, keeping it
from igniting seems like a good defense.
The flap motor in my RV-10 is described on the attached data sheet.
There are four 6-32 threaded holes in each end of the motor. Two are used f
or mounting, one is blocked by the gearbox, leaving five that expose the br
ushes to the tunnel atmosphere.
I wiped a little blob of silicone into the unused hole on the bottom of the
motor, and put AN515-6R4s and split lock-washers in the top holes. The mot
or works fine, no issues with clearance. There's a picture of the motor wit
h the outer case taken off, which I wouldn't recommend doing. Now I realize
it's not necessary. I just included it to identify which hole was plugged
with silicone. Putting the brushes and shims back together wasn't much fun.
I kind of doubt that this makes the motor officially "explosion proof" but
I don't see how it hurts and hopefully it's a tiny bit safer. Fixing the le
ak was the best solution.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
Time: 01:35:27 PM PST US
From: Roger Standley <taildragon@msn.com>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Leak
Dave=2C
Just curious=2C which fuel valve did you use? Was the leak fixed by tighten
ing or tube replacement?
Roger
From: dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com
Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Leak
Listers=2C
The other day on preflight I noticed a faint fuel smell in the cockpit. I
talked myself into thinking it was nothing=2C and the next day it was stron
ger. Time to investigate.
I found a pretty good drip coming from the flare at the bottom of the fuel
valve. There was some staining and a little dampness on the bottom of the
tunnel=2C easily fixed with a flex hose.
It got me thinking again about the flap motor as an ignition source.
To date there have been at least three RV-10 cockpit fires. Now of course
keeping the fuel where it should be is key=2C but once it gets out=2C keepi
ng it from igniting seems like a good defense.
The flap motor in my RV-10 is described on the attached data sheet.
There are four 6-32 threaded holes in each end of the motor. Two are used
for mounting=2C one is blocked by the gearbox=2C leaving five that expose t
he brushes to the tunnel atmosphere.
I wiped a little blob of silicone into the unused hole on the bottom of the
motor=2C and put AN515-6R4s and split lock-washers in the top holes. The
motor works fine=2C no issues with clearance. There's a picture of the mot
or with the outer case taken off=2C which I wouldn't recommend doing. Now
I realize it's not necessary. I just included it to identify which hole wa
s plugged with silicone. Putting the brushes and shims back together wasn'
t much fun.
I kind of doubt that this makes the motor officially "explosion proof" but
I don't see how it hurts and hopefully it's a tiny bit safer. Fixing the l
eak was the best solution.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville=2C CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
Time: 02:04:45 PM PST US
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Leak
I have an Andair valve with an AN fitting screwed into the bottom of it.
The leak was between the AN fitting and the flared tube that I fabbed when I
upgraded to the Andair about three years ago.
I replaced the leaky flared tube with a flexible teflon hose.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Roger Standley <taildragon@msn.com> wrote:
> Dave,
>
> Just curious, which fuel valve did you use? Was the leak fixed by
> tightening or tube replacement?
>
> Roger
>
> ------------------------------
> From: dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:31:20 -0700
> Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Leak
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>
> Listers,
>
> The other day on preflight I noticed a faint fuel smell in the cockpit. I
> talked myself into thinking it was nothing, and the next day it was
> stronger. Time to investigate.
>
> I found a pretty good drip coming from the flare at the bottom of the fuel
> valve. There was some staining and a little dampness on the bottom of the
> tunnel, easily fixed with a flex hose.
>
> It got me thinking again about the flap motor as an ignition source.
>
> To date there have been at least three RV-10 cockpit fires. Now of course
> keeping the fuel where it should be is key, but once it gets out, keeping it
> from igniting seems like a good defense.
>
> The flap motor in my RV-10 is described on the attached data sheet.
>
> There are four 6-32 threaded holes in each end of the motor. Two are used
> for mounting, one is blocked by the gearbox, leaving five that expose the
> brushes to the tunnel atmosphere.
>
> I wiped a little blob of silicone into the unused hole on the bottom of the
> motor, and put AN515-6R4s and split lock-washers in the top holes. The
> motor works fine, no issues with clearance. There's a picture of the motor
> with the outer case taken off, which I wouldn't recommend doing. Now I
> realize it's not necessary. I just included it to identify which hole was
> plugged with silicone. Putting the brushes and shims back together wasn't
> much fun.
>
> I kind of doubt that this makes the motor officially "explosion proof" but
> I don't see how it hurts and hopefully it's a tiny bit safer. Fixing the
> leak was the best solution.
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
Time: 05:13:06 PM PST US
From: "John Cumins" <jcumins@jcis.net>
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Fuel Leak
Dave
One question on the tubing. Was it the 3002 tube van supplies
that=99s real soft, for was it 5052 standard certified aircraft
tubing.
I have seen the 3000 series tubes leak over time way more so than the
5052 type.
Also, I think you are dead on with the plugging of the holes on the flap
motor. Great idea. I will for sure do that on mine when I get to that
point.
Thanks for all the great information that you pass on the list as you
become aware of it.
Description: ISlogoLAsmall
John Cumins
President
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Leak
I have an Andair valve with an AN fitting screwed into the bottom of it.
The leak was between the AN fitting and the flared tube that I fabbed
when I upgraded to the Andair about three years ago.
I replaced the leaky flared tube with a flexible teflon hose.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Roger Standley <taildragon@msn.com>
wrote:
Dave,
Just curious, which fuel valve did you use? Was the leak fixed by
tightening or tube replacement?
Roger
_____
From: dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com
Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Leak
Listers,
The other day on preflight I noticed a faint fuel smell in the cockpit.
I talked myself into thinking it was nothing, and the next day it was
stronger. Time to investigate.
I found a pretty good drip coming from the flare at the bottom of the
fuel valve. There was some staining and a little dampness on the bottom
of the tunnel, easily fixed with a flex hose.
It got me thinking again about the flap motor as an ignition source.
To date there have been at least three RV-10 cockpit fires. Now of
course keeping the fuel where it should be is key, but once it gets out,
keeping it from igniting seems like a good defense.
The flap motor in my RV-10 is described on the attached data sheet.
There are four 6-32 threaded holes in each end of the motor. Two are
used for mounting, one is blocked by the gearbox, leaving five that
expose the brushes to the tunnel atmosphere.
I wiped a little blob of silicone into the unused hole on the bottom of
the motor, and put AN515-6R4s and split lock-washers in the top holes.
The motor works fine, no issues with clearance. There's a picture of
the motor with the outer case taken off, which I wouldn't recommend
doing. Now I realize it's not necessary. I just included it to
identify which hole was plugged with silicone. Putting the brushes and
shims back together wasn't much fun.
I kind of doubt that this makes the motor officially "explosion proof"
but I don't see how it hurts and hopefully it's a tiny bit safer.
Fixing the leak was the best solution.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
Time: 06:55:38 PM PST US
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Fuel Leak
From: "billz" <billz@roadrunner.com>
Thank you for the information on the flap motor. It's a step in the right direction
and I plan to make the changes.
Many aircraft designs also provide a means of venting areas that may accumulate
fumes (fuel/hydraulics/etc.) from the aircraft. Larger aircraft are required
to have positive ventilation in these areas. Although the RV-10 doesn't have
any major issues in this area, I decided to take some proactive steps to provide
some separation between the fuel lines and the rest of the tunnel and also
add a small amount of ventilation. I installed an aft facing vent on the bottom
of the fuselage, directly under the fuel valve. This should create a small
amount of negative pressure in the tunnel and draw any fumes out. I plan to
enclose the area that has fuel lines/pump/filter with some easily removable insulation
material. The insulation will be self supporting, easily removed and
secured with velcro. Again, like the flap motor upgrade, this is not a perfect
fix, but should improve the odds in case there is a small fuel leak. Attached
are pictures of the fuselage vent.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355701#355701
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1382_571.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1381_769.jpg
________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
Time: 07:26:29 PM PST US
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Fuel Leak
From: Phillip Perry <philperry9@gmail.com>
I'd like to find a direct replacement for the standard motor that is
brushless. That's always been my thought.
I suppose I could call the manufacturer and see if they could sell an
equivalent motor in brushless form.
Phil
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:48 PM, billz <billz@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you for the information on the flap motor. It's a step in the right
> direction and I plan to make the changes.
>
> Many aircraft designs also provide a means of venting areas that may
> accumulate fumes (fuel/hydraulics/etc.) from the aircraft. Larger aircraft
> are required to have positive ventilation in these areas. Although the
> RV-10 doesn't have any major issues in this area, I decided to take some
> proactive steps to provide some separation between the fuel lines and the
> rest of the tunnel and also add a small amount of ventilation. I installed
> an aft facing vent on the bottom of the fuselage, directly under the fuel
> valve. This should create a small amount of negative pressure in the tunnel
> and draw any fumes out. I plan to enclose the area that has fuel
> lines/pump/filter with some easily removable insulation material. The
> insulation will be self supporting, easily removed and secured with velcro.
> Again, like the flap motor upgrade, this is not a perfect fix, but should
> improve the odds in case there is a small fuel leak. Attached are pictures
> of the fuselage vent.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355701#355701
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1382_571.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1381_769.jpg
>
>
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________
Time: 07:32:08 PM PST US
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Leak
From: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
I'm pretty sure the tubing was 3003.
--Dave
On Oct 21, 2011, at 16:54, "John Cumins" <jcumins@jcis.net> wrote:
> Dave
>
>
>
> One question on the tubing. Was it the 3002 tube van supplies that=99
s real soft, for was it 5052 standard certified aircraft tubing.
>
>
>
> I have seen the 3000 series tubes leak over time way more so than the 5052
type.
>
>
>
> Also, I think you are dead on with the plugging of the holes on the flap m
otor. Great idea. I will for sure do that on mine when I get to that point
..
>
>
>
> Thanks for all the great information that you pass on the list as you beco
me aware of it.
>
>
>
>
>
> <image001.jpg>
>
> John Cumins
>
> President
>
> 707-425-7100
>
> 707-425-7576 Fax
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor
> Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 1:50 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Leak
>
>
>
> I have an Andair valve with an AN fitting screwed into the bottom of it. T
he leak was between the AN fitting and the flared tube that I fabbed when I u
pgraded to the Andair about three years ago.
>
> I replaced the leaky flared tube with a flexible teflon hose.
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Roger Standley <taildragon@msn.com> wrote
:
>
> Dave,
>
> Just curious, which fuel valve did you use? Was the leak fixed by tighteni
ng or tube replacement?
>
> Roger
>
> From: dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:31:20 -0700
> Subject: RV10-List: Fuel Leak
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>
> Listers,
>
> The other day on preflight I noticed a faint fuel smell in the cockpit. I
talked myself into thinking it was nothing, and the next day it was stronge
r. Time to investigate.
>
> I found a pretty good drip coming from the flare at the bottom of the fuel
valve. There was some staining and a little dampness on the bottom of the t
unnel, easily fixed with a flex hose.
>
> It got me thinking again about the flap motor as an ignition source.
>
> To date there have been at least three RV-10 cockpit fires. Now of course
keeping the fuel where it should be is key, but once it gets out, keeping i
t from igniting seems like a good defense.
>
> The flap motor in my RV-10 is described on the attached data sheet.
>
> There are four 6-32 threaded holes in each end of the motor. Two are used
for mounting, one is blocked by the gearbox, leaving five that expose the b
rushes to the tunnel atmosphere.
>
> I wiped a little blob of silicone into the unused hole on the bottom of th
e motor, and put AN515-6R4s and split lock-washers in the top holes. The mo
tor works fine, no issues with clearance. There's a picture of the motor wi
th the outer case taken off, which I wouldn't recommend doing. Now I realiz
e it's not necessary. I just included it to identify which hole was plugged
with silicone. Putting the brushes and shims back together wasn't much fun
..
>
> I kind of doubt that this makes the motor officially "explosion proof" but
I don't see how it hurts and hopefully it's a tiny bit safer. Fixing the l
eak was the best solution.
>
> Dave Saylor
> AirCrafters
> 140 Aviation Way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> 831-722-9141 Shop
> 831-750-0284 Cell
>
>
>
> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Re: : RV10-List:Unsub |
It is considered very bad form to quote an entire digest to make a two
word reply. Really screws up the archives.
This is a self help list, just like building your plane...do it
yourself, the same way you got on:
- The RV10-List Email Forum -
On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Eli Stefansky <eli@prime-quest.com> wrote:
>
> please remove
>
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: 2011 Copperstate RV10 Nest |
Many thanks to Myron and his wife for providing an excellent feast,
great place to catch up with fellow RV10 enthusiasts, with some shade,
seats and refreshment, excellent lunch. Missed Deems and John Cox
this year, but great times with all that did show up. As well as the
personal RV10s that made it, there were the avionics demo birds from
Advanced Flight Systems and Tru-Track.
Not to mention other attractions such as demo flights of BD5J, P51,
B17, Hellcat, among others. Booths by Advanced Flight Systems, Dynon,
Trio, Tru-Track, Tosten stick grips, Aerotronics for those in the
middle of panel choices, and unlike OSH, ability to get quality time
with the principal reps explaining their products.
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 6:48 PM, woxofswa <woxof@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> I should be set up by early afternoon on Thurs. Chairs, shade, and water/soft
drinks will always be available. Looking forward to a great turnout and show.
>>
>> --------
>> Myron Nelson
>> Mesa, AZ
>> Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse in mostly done, finishing
kit in progress.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355347#355347
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: Panel Choice |
About the comment on the Dynon Skyview - I did not consider it because of three
reasons. First, they work only with their own autopilot which is internal to
the EFIS. In the event of an EFIS failure you are out of luck but with all
the other units, assuming you are using an external A/P, the A/P will fly the
airplane. Second, it does not have XM weather capability. Third, it can not
do a complete coupled approach, lacking vertical navigation. While I think the
Skyview is a really nice unit (and may put one in my VFR RV-6), it did not measure
up to the other choices. I'm sure some will disagree with me about whether
these are worthy points or not.
I hope Dynon catches up but they seem more interested in the LSA and VFR market.
I wish I had the GTN-750 rather than the 650 because it is a joy to look at and
use. From a pure functional standpoint it does not do much more than the 650
but if I recall, cost about $6-7K more. My heart told me to buy it but my brain
overrode.
I like the panel shots. The G3X fits the panel nicely without being overcrowded.
I have mounted all the avionics and was also able to do it without touching
the ribs in front of the panel.
--------
Dave Moore
RV-6 flying
RV-10 QB - Working G3X panel
Rest almost done
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355774#355774
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: 2011 Copperstate RV10 Nest |
Thanks to all who participated. Our numbers were down a bit this year but the
event itself seemed bigger. We missed some regulars this year, nut made new friends.
Hopefully it won't be so hot next year.
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse in mostly done, finishing
kit in progress.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355775#355775
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Choice |
After looking at AFS, Dynon and G3X the last 3 days....to my old eyes
the G3X is just to small....not to mention their expensive options and
update prices.
Dynon---vertical nav on autopilot is coming, probably in 6-9 months.
ADS-B weather and ability to display sectional, enroute and approach
charts are high priority for future features. Vertical nav is apparently
going to require an external control panel similar to what they had on
their legacy products. Also coming is Com radio, remotely mounted with a
very small control head, similar to AP control head.
AFS seems to be the most advanced at this point. They seem to be able to
implement new features more quickly than others. Only downside I see is
the size of the bezel, due to more hardware knobs and buttons and price.
Current screens(5000 series) have significantly less depth than earlier
versions. Other advantage is AHARS built-in, so only magnetometer needs
to be mounted elsewhere on airframe. All of the above work with VPX from
Vertical Power. Glad I have a few more months before I need to make a
decision.
On 10/22/2011 7:59 PM, nukeflyboy wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "nukeflyboy"<flymoore@charter.net>
>
> About the comment on the Dynon Skyview - I did not consider it because of three
reasons. First, they work only with their own autopilot which is internal
to the EFIS. In the event of an EFIS failure you are out of luck but with all
the other units, assuming you are using an external A/P, the A/P will fly the
airplane. Second, it does not have XM weather capability. Third, it can not
do a complete coupled approach, lacking vertical navigation. While I think
the Skyview is a really nice unit (and may put one in my VFR RV-6), it did not
measure up to the other choices. I'm sure some will disagree with me about whether
these are worthy points or not.
> I hope Dynon catches up but they seem more interested in the LSA and VFR market.
>
> I wish I had the GTN-750 rather than the 650 because it is a joy to look at and
use. From a pure functional standpoint it does not do much more than the 650
but if I recall, cost about $6-7K more. My heart told me to buy it but my
brain overrode.
>
> I like the panel shots. The G3X fits the panel nicely without being overcrowded.
I have mounted all the avionics and was also able to do it without touching
the ribs in front of the panel.
>
> --------
> Dave Moore
> RV-6 flying
> RV-10 QB - Working G3X panel
> Rest almost done
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355774#355774
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: 2011 Copperstate RV10 Nest |
Who knows...we could dream of getting all flying RV-10s in Arizona to
show at a single Copperstate. As is, I think close to 50 percent made
it this year.
On 10/22/2011 8:09 PM, woxofswa wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "woxofswa"<woxof@aol.com>
>
> Thanks to all who participated. Our numbers were down a bit this year but the
event itself seemed bigger. We missed some regulars this year, nut made new
friends. Hopefully it won't be so hot next year.
>
>
> --------
> Myron Nelson
> Mesa, AZ
> Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse in mostly done, finishing
kit in progress.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355775#355775
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: 2011 Copperstate RV10 Nest |
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Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Panel Choice |
Size of the G3X screens was a big concern of mine before and when I got them.
They are great when actually using them. They are only two feet away and probably
have the same font size as the competition. I have flown behind Cheltons,
GRT, AFS, G1000, SPZ5000, Primus 1000, Proline21, and the DA900EASy. I think
Garmin has all you need in these boxes plus some. I like mine more than any
of the others but again it's mine. The landscape is more broad in some of the
others with synthetic vision, but the same info is there. As far as databases....well
I spend 1300 per year on the Garmin bundle and the XM so that could
be a lot better. Hopefully that will come down. I see they have a special with
the 750 but that doesn't help me with my 430w.
I think ease of use with the GTN 750 is the gain in capability.
--------
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
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