Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:16 AM - Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists (Matt Dralle)
1. 06:46 AM - Re: Re: Insurance Question for the Group (Thane States)
2. 06:57 AM - Re: Insurance Question for the Group (tjyak50)
3. 10:01 AM - 40533 First Flight (jchang10)
4. 10:18 AM - Re: 40533 First Flight (Dave Saylor)
5. 10:20 AM - Re: 40533 First Flight (Robin Marks)
6. 11:01 AM - Re: Re: Insurance Question for the Group (Steve Farner)
7. 11:05 AM - Re: 40533 First Flight (Seano)
8. 11:08 AM - Re: 40533 First Flight (Jeff Carpenter)
9. 12:16 PM - Heavy wing (Rob Kochman)
10. 12:16 PM - Re: 40533 First Flight (Rob Kochman)
11. 12:49 PM - Re: 40533 First Flight ()
12. 12:58 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Rene Felker)
13. 01:07 PM - Re: Insurance Question for the Group (Bob Turner)
14. 01:09 PM - Re: 40533 First Flight (Bob Turner)
15. 01:15 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Bob Turner)
16. 01:24 PM - Re: 40533 First Flight (Bill Watson)
17. 02:24 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Carl Froehlich)
18. 02:55 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Ron Walker)
19. 03:32 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Robin Marks)
20. 04:13 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Carl Froehlich)
21. 04:44 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Gary Specketer)
22. 05:10 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Seano)
23. 06:18 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Bob Turner)
24. 06:47 PM - Re: Re: Heavy wing (Kelly McMullen)
25. 08:33 PM - Re: Heavy wing (David Leikam)
26. 10:09 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Rob Kochman)
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| Subject: | Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists |
Dear Listers,
There is no advertising income to support the Matronics Email Lists and Forums.
The operation is supported 100% by your personal Contributions during the November
Fund Raiser.
Please make your Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade
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too!
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Thank you in advance for your generous support!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance Question for the Group |
I am not sure, but you have confused me with someone else. I dont want to
split anything, I have no partner, just me.
Are we on the same page??
Thane
----- Original Message -----
From: "tjyak50" <tomjohnson@cox.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 3:45 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Insurance Question for the Group
>
> Getting "Split Limits" is virtually impossible on smaller airplanes. On
> some larger accounts it is not unusual to have them.
>
> Example on a turboprop that might have $10m liability when "pro-flown" but
> only $3m when "owner flown". These policies bring a lot more money to
> the underwriter so they are more likely to do something special.
>
> Your situation is pretty typical and not much can be done about it. In
> the past i have had to cancel and re-write many policies for just this
> reason when a new partner came into an airplane group. That gets to be
> more work than some want to do.
>
> Not a whole lot of options in your case.
>
> Tj
> www.airpowerinsurance.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357404#357404
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance Question for the Group |
Thane, my post referenced the original post on this subject.
Nothing to do with our conversation.
Happy Friday all.
TJ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357514#357514
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| Subject: | 40533 First Flight |
#40533 had its first flight a few weeks ago on 10/19/11 after 5 years and 11 months
of building. (The slow build option added at least 2 years in my case.) The
announcement is a bit overdue, but it sure has been a busy few weeks of test
flying, taking panels and cowling on and off, and transitioning to being a pilot
again.
The plane flies straight, level, and oh so fast and has met or exceeded so many
expectations. It truly is a wonderful feeling to have finally gotten here. Thanks
go out to all those people in this wonderful community that have provided
guidance, answered stupid questions :), and otherwise contributed their knowledge
to the collective knowledge base over the years. I hope to meet some of you
in some future fly-ins now that i have a means of getting there! :)
Jae
Phase 1
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 40533 First Flight |
Congrats Jae, is WVI in your radius? Stop in when you can.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 9:58 AM, jchang10 <jc-matronics_rv10@jline.com> wrote:
>
> #40533 had its first flight a few weeks ago on 10/19/11 after 5 years and 11
months of building. (The slow build option added at least 2 years in my case.)
The announcement is a bit overdue, but it sure has been a busy few weeks of test
flying, taking panels and cowling on and off, and transitioning to being a
pilot again.
>
> The plane flies straight, level, and oh so fast and has met or exceeded so many
expectations. It truly is a wonderful feeling to have finally gotten here.
Thanks go out to all those people in this wonderful community that have provided
guidance, answered stupid questions :), and otherwise contributed their knowledge
to the collective knowledge base over the years. I hope to meet some of
you in some future fly-ins now that i have a means of getting there! :)
>
> Jae
> Phase 1
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | 40533 First Flight |
Way to go Jae! Have a fun & safe Phase 1.
Robin
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jchang10
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 9:58 AM
Subject: RV10-List: 40533 First Flight
--> <jc-matronics_rv10@jline.com>
#40533 had its first flight a few weeks ago on 10/19/11 after 5 years and 11 months
of building. (The slow build option added at least 2 years in my case.) The
announcement is a bit overdue, but it sure has been a busy few weeks of test
flying, taking panels and cowling on and off, and transitioning to being a pilot
again.
The plane flies straight, level, and oh so fast and has met or exceeded so many
expectations. It truly is a wonderful feeling to have finally gotten here. Thanks
go out to all those people in this wonderful community that have provided
guidance, answered stupid questions :), and otherwise contributed their knowledge
to the collective knowledge base over the years. I hope to meet some of you
in some future fly-ins now that i have a means of getting there! :)
Jae
Phase 1
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance Question for the Group |
Hi All- Thanks for the information. Maybe if I promise to always fly the Bonanza
with the gear down? :)
I realize they are going by the statistics, but it is interesting/frustrating that
they put so much emphasis on the gear. I might be wrong on this, but it would
seem that 100 hours in a 172RG would bring my rates dowm more than 100 hours
in an RV10 (to fly a Bonanza).
The other perplexing thing is why they just won't write a policy at a higher premium.
I can see the premium doubling if I request 2m liability versus 1m, but
am less clear why they won't write it at all. Thanks for the responses!
Steve Farner
________________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of tjyak50 [tomjohnson@cox.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 2:45 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Insurance Question for the Group
Getting "Split Limits" is virtually impossible on smaller airplanes. On some larger
accounts it is not unusual to have them.
Example on a turboprop that might have $10m liability when "pro-flown" but only
$3m when "owner flown". These policies bring a lot more money to the underwriter
so they are more likely to do something special.
Your situation is pretty typical and not much can be done about it. In the past
i have had to cancel and re-write many policies for just this reason when a
new partner came into an airplane group. That gets to be more work than some
want to do.
Not a whole lot of options in your case.
Tj
www.airpowerinsurance.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357404#357404
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 40533 First Flight |
Nice work Jae!
----- Original Message -----
From: "jchang10" <jc-matronics_rv10@jline.com>
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 10:58 AM
Subject: RV10-List: 40533 First Flight
>
> #40533 had its first flight a few weeks ago on 10/19/11 after 5 years and
> 11 months of building. (The slow build option added at least 2 years in my
> case.) The announcement is a bit overdue, but it sure has been a busy few
> weeks of test flying, taking panels and cowling on and off, and
> transitioning to being a pilot again.
>
> The plane flies straight, level, and oh so fast and has met or exceeded so
> many expectations. It truly is a wonderful feeling to have finally gotten
> here. Thanks go out to all those people in this wonderful community that
> have provided guidance, answered stupid questions :), and otherwise
> contributed their knowledge to the collective knowledge base over the
> years. I hope to meet some of you in some future fly-ins now that i have a
> means of getting there! :)
>
> Jae
> Phase 1
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 40533 First Flight |
congrats Jae... that's great news.
On Nov 11, 2011, at 9:58 AM, jchang10 wrote:
> >
>
> #40533 had its first flight a few weeks ago on 10/19/11 after 5
> years and 11 months of building. (The slow build option added at
> least 2 years in my case.) The announcement is a bit overdue, but it
> sure has been a busy few weeks of test flying, taking panels and
> cowling on and off, and transitioning to being a pilot again.
>
> The plane flies straight, level, and oh so fast and has met or
> exceeded so many expectations. It truly is a wonderful feeling to
> have finally gotten here. Thanks go out to all those people in this
> wonderful community that have provided guidance, answered stupid
> questions :), and otherwise contributed their knowledge to the
> collective knowledge base over the years. I hope to meet some of you
> in some future fly-ins now that i have a means of getting there! :)
>
> Jae
> Phase 1
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535
>
>
Message 9
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|
Hi, all... I have about 90 hours on the RV-10 now, and everything is great,
with the exception of a significantly heavy right wing. I feel like I've
tried just about everything, but still can't get it figured out, so looking
for suggestions from the group. Here's what I know (and what I've ruled
out):
- Using the standard aileron trim, it takes nearly full left trim to
keep the wings level at cruise speed. The heavy wing is less noticeable at
slower speeds, so it's definitely an aerodynamic problem.
- Problem has existed since first flight, so it's not a new issue and
not an issue with the leg and wheel fairings
- Rigghing is correct (per plans, verified with the aileron bellcrank
templates). I tried adjusting one side a little, but as you can imagine,
since the ailerons are interconnected, it didn't make a difference).
- Flaps are even (measured with a digital level). just out of
curiosity, I lowered the right flap a little to see if it would make a
difference. It did not.
- Loading is even (i.e. see the problem w/ balanced load in the cabin
and balanced fuel tanks).
- Perhaps the most telling: when holding the airplane level, the
ailerons are even with the flaps (in the reflex position). *When I let
go of the stick, with neutral trim, the left aileron goes down and the
right up slightly (maybe 1/8" at most). This is consistent with the heavy
left wing.*
- I've verified that the ailerons are mounted evenly with respect to the
rear wing spar, since Van's "heavy wing" document says this can cause
issues.
- Ailerons seem to be well-built and symmetrical (they're quickbuilds).
I've tried everything in Van's "heavy wing" document and talked to several
people over there. They don't have any ideas for me, other than to put a
wedge under the left aileron to balance it out (which I've had on there for
60 hours or so). N410RV has a trim wedge, and one of the guys at Van's
says that Van's personal RV-10 has a sizeable trim wedge. too. Though I'm
usually pragmatic about issues like this, it seems that adding the wedge is
just admitting defeat--something is giving it a heavy right wing
(specifically something is deflecting the left aileron down and the right
aileron up), and I should be able to figure out what it is.
Anyone have any ideas? Much appreciated.
-Rob
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 40533 First Flight |
Congrats!
On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Jeff Carpenter <jeff@westcottpress.com>wrote:
>
> congrats Jae... that's great news.
>
>
> On Nov 11, 2011, at 9:58 AM, jchang10 wrote:
>
>>
>> #40533 had its first flight a few weeks ago on 10/19/11 after 5 years and
>> 11 months of building. (The slow build option added at least 2 years in my
>> case.) The announcement is a bit overdue, but it sure has been a busy few
>> weeks of test flying, taking panels and cowling on and off, and
>> transitioning to being a pilot again.
>>
>> The plane flies straight, level, and oh so fast and has met or exceeded
>> so many expectations. It truly is a wonderful feeling to have finally
>> gotten here. Thanks go out to all those people in this wonderful community
>> that have provided guidance, answered stupid questions :), and otherwise
>> contributed their knowledge to the collective knowledge base over the
>> years. I hope to meet some of you in some future fly-ins now that i have a
>> means of getting there! :)
>>
>> Jae
>> Phase 1
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/**viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 40533 First Flight |
Jae: Welcome aboard. I just got back to CA from Maine and, as usual, will be
at KLVK until June. Where is your plane hangered? Give me a call so we can get
together--I would love to check it out. Jay Rowe (207) 692-7093.
<jc-matronics_rv10@jline.com> wrote:
>
> #40533 had its first flight a few weeks ago on 10/19/11 after 5 years and 11
months of building. (The slow build option added at least 2 years in my case.)
The announcement is a bit overdue, but it sure has been a busy few weeks of test
flying, taking panels and cowling on and off, and transitioning to being a
pilot again.
>
> The plane flies straight, level, and oh so fast and has met or exceeded so many
expectations. It truly is a wonderful feeling to have finally gotten here.
Thanks go out to all those people in this wonderful community that have provided
guidance, answered stupid questions :), and otherwise contributed their knowledge
to the collective knowledge base over the years. I hope to meet some of
you in some future fly-ins now that i have a means of getting there! :)
>
> Jae
> Phase 1
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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This may have no merit...so...
Wing tip? I did not see anything about checking the wingtip and their
position and possible effect. I spent a lot of time rebuilding mine because
they did not line up with my Ailerons and were not the same on both sides.
If I remember right , the tips have a little bit of a dihedral to them and
being way out there on the wing, they could have a big effect if they were
different.
Just a wag..
Good luck, don't let the #$%$ win...or just go ugly early and put the wedge
on..
Rene' Felker
N423CF
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kochman
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 1:13 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Heavy wing
Hi, all... I have about 90 hours on the RV-10 now, and everything is great,
with the exception of a significantly heavy right wing. I feel like I've
tried just about everything, but still can't get it figured out, so looking
for suggestions from the group. Here's what I know (and what I've ruled
out):
* Using the standard aileron trim, it takes nearly full left trim to
keep the wings level at cruise speed. The heavy wing is less noticeable at
slower speeds, so it's definitely an aerodynamic problem.
* Problem has existed since first flight, so it's not a new issue and
not an issue with the leg and wheel fairings
* Rigghing is correct (per plans, verified with the aileron bellcrank
templates). I tried adjusting one side a little, but as you can imagine,
since the ailerons are interconnected, it didn't make a difference).
* Flaps are even (measured with a digital level). just out of
curiosity, I lowered the right flap a little to see if it would make a
difference. It did not.
* Loading is even (i.e. see the problem w/ balanced load in the cabin
and balanced fuel tanks).
* Perhaps the most telling: when holding the airplane level, the
ailerons are even with the flaps (in the reflex position). When I let go of
the stick, with neutral trim, the left aileron goes down and the right up
slightly (maybe 1/8" at most). This is consistent with the heavy left wing.
* I've verified that the ailerons are mounted evenly with respect to
the rear wing spar, since Van's "heavy wing" document says this can cause
issues.
* Ailerons seem to be well-built and symmetrical (they're
quickbuilds).
I've tried everything in Van's "heavy wing" document and talked to several
people over there. They don't have any ideas for me, other than to put a
wedge under the left aileron to balance it out (which I've had on there for
60 hours or so). N410RV has a trim wedge, and one of the guys at Van's says
that Van's personal RV-10 has a sizeable trim wedge. too. Though I'm
usually pragmatic about issues like this, it seems that adding the wedge is
just admitting defeat--something is giving it a heavy right wing
(specifically something is deflecting the left aileron down and the right
aileron up), and I should be able to figure out what it is.
Anyone have any ideas? Much appreciated.
-Rob
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance Question for the Group |
Steve, I'd guess you're wrong about the last post, since the emphasis here seems
to be on liability coverage.
No one gets hurt in gear up landings, so retract time affects hull coverage more
than liability.
OTOH, a V35 or an RV-10 is not a 172RG. Things happen much faster, it's easier
for pilots to be overwhelmed, get behind, etc. I've been impressed by how quickly
a 10 with full flaps can lose speed with just a little back pressure.
A 172RG doesn't even qualify as a high performance airplane per the FARs.
I may be wrong, but I'd guess it's your lack of time in a high speed airplane that's
driving this.
Of course the insurance industry is hard to understand. When I was in our 182 partnership,
the second $1M of liability cost more than the first $1M! I have no
explanation for that.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357567#357567
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 40533 First Flight |
Congratulations (from another KLVK based -10).
Where are you based? Is LVK in your phase 1 area?
Bob
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357568#357568
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I know you said you tried everything in Van's 'help' document, but....
In my case it was the left wing heavy in flight, and I could see the ailerons deflected,
too.
I moved the left aileron outboard attachment point lower by about 1/32" (barely
noticeable) and it took out 90% of the heaviness. e.g., it is very sensitive
to this.
Bob
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357569#357569
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| Subject: | Re: 40533 First Flight |
Congratulations - the next phase of enjoyment begins...
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "jchang10"<jc-matronics_rv10@jline.com>
>
> #40533 had its first flight a few weeks ago on 10/19/11 after 5 years and 11
months of building. (The slow build option added at least 2 years in my case.)
The announcement is a bit overdue, but it sure has been a busy few weeks of test
flying, taking panels and cowling on and off, and transitioning to being a
pilot again.
>
> The plane flies straight, level, and oh so fast and has met or exceeded so many
expectations. It truly is a wonderful feeling to have finally gotten here.
Thanks go out to all those people in this wonderful community that have provided
guidance, answered stupid questions :), and otherwise contributed their knowledge
to the collective knowledge base over the years. I hope to meet some of
you in some future fly-ins now that i have a means of getting there! :)
>
> Jae
> Phase 1
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535
>
>
Message 17
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|
As already mentioned, check the aileron height (compare left/right at
inboard and outboard attach points using a straight edge running aft off the
wing). A very small difference between aileron heights will make a big
difference - and just how heavy the wing is will be dependent on speed. I
found this problem in several heavy wing RVs, including my RV-8A. Moving
the offending attachment point completely solve my problem on the 8A.
Other things to look at:
- Do not assume that if the ailerons (in neutral position) are even
with the flaps (in reflex position) that they are rigged correctly as there
may be a slight twist in the flap. Put the flaps in the reflex position,
clamp one aileron to the flap, then compare using a straight edge running
aft off the wing the two ailerons deflection. If there is a difference,
adjust the push rods until they are exactly the same.
- Do the same straight edge measurement on the flaps to compare.
If you do have a slight twist in a flap, I would expect that you can
compensate for it if the ailerons are symmetrically rigged as they provide
the higher moment arm.
- Once you have the ailerons at the same deflection, then look at
the wingtips. When building the wingtips you can move the wingtip tailing
edge up or down a good quarter of an inch when fitting the aft rib.
Of note, the easy tone in Van's instructions on rigging the aircraft never
seemed right for me. After chasing my tail on a heavy wing I went back to
basics as discussed above and found the small difference in aileron mount
height. Rigging is a big deal - and something that few will get right on
the first attempt.
Carl
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kochman
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 3:13 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Heavy wing
Hi, all... I have about 90 hours on the RV-10 now, and everything is great,
with the exception of a significantly heavy right wing. I feel like I've
tried just about everything, but still can't get it figured out, so looking
for suggestions from the group. Here's what I know (and what I've ruled
out):
* Using the standard aileron trim, it takes nearly full left trim to
keep the wings level at cruise speed. The heavy wing is less noticeable at
slower speeds, so it's definitely an aerodynamic problem.
* Problem has existed since first flight, so it's not a new issue and
not an issue with the leg and wheel fairings
* Rigghing is correct (per plans, verified with the aileron bellcrank
templates). I tried adjusting one side a little, but as you can imagine,
since the ailerons are interconnected, it didn't make a difference).
* Flaps are even (measured with a digital level). just out of
curiosity, I lowered the right flap a little to see if it would make a
difference. It did not.
* Loading is even (i.e. see the problem w/ balanced load in the cabin
and balanced fuel tanks).
* Perhaps the most telling: when holding the airplane level, the
ailerons are even with the flaps (in the reflex position). When I let go of
the stick, with neutral trim, the left aileron goes down and the right up
slightly (maybe 1/8" at most). This is consistent with the heavy left wing.
* I've verified that the ailerons are mounted evenly with respect to
the rear wing spar, since Van's "heavy wing" document says this can cause
issues.
* Ailerons seem to be well-built and symmetrical (they're
quickbuilds).
I've tried everything in Van's "heavy wing" document and talked to several
people over there. They don't have any ideas for me, other than to put a
wedge under the left aileron to balance it out (which I've had on there for
60 hours or so). N410RV has a trim wedge, and one of the guys at Van's says
that Van's personal RV-10 has a sizeable trim wedge. too. Though I'm
usually pragmatic about issues like this, it seems that adding the wedge is
just admitting defeat--something is giving it a heavy right wing
(specifically something is deflecting the left aileron down and the right
aileron up), and I should be able to figure out what it is.
Anyone have any ideas? Much appreciated.
-Rob
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
Message 18
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On Fri, 2011-11-11 at 17:20 -0500, Carl Froehlich wrote:
> Moving the offending attachment point
How does one "move the attach point"? The ailerons are attached to a
powder coated bracket that attaches at the pivot point of bracket
riveted to the spar - I just looked at my wings in the cradle and tried
to imagine how this would be done. Are you talking about elongating the
holes in that bracket to allow the aileron to shift up or down relative
to that pivot point ?
A photo with some arrows to point things out would go a long way.
I'm not disagreeing, just trying to visualize how you did this.
--Ron
Message 19
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I think Matt elongated the hole on his -8 with success. I believe he was surprised
at how very small the hole modification required. One may want to check the
recent archives or throw the question out to Matt.
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Walker
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 2:52 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Heavy wing
On Fri, 2011-11-11 at 17:20 -0500, Carl Froehlich wrote:
> Moving the offending attachment point
How does one "move the attach point"? The ailerons are attached to a powder coated
bracket that attaches at the pivot point of bracket riveted to the spar -
I just looked at my wings in the cradle and tried to imagine how this would be
done. Are you talking about elongating the holes in that bracket to allow the
aileron to shift up or down relative to that pivot point ?
A photo with some arrows to point things out would go a long way.
I'm not disagreeing, just trying to visualize how you did this.
--Ron
Message 20
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On the 8A I got the brackets from Van's that don't have holes and drilled
holes slightly offset from center. I don't know if these "no hole" brackets
are available for the 10. I've seen others elongate the holes the small
amount needed (I understand this was the advice the person received from
Van's but that is second hand). Another approach is to take the current
brackets and weld the holes shut, grind the weld flat and then re-drill.
If the aileron height is off, you typically only need to adjust one bracket
as the fix.
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 6:30 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Heavy wing
I think Matt elongated the hole on his -8 with success. I believe he was
surprised at how very small the hole modification required. One may want to
check the recent archives or throw the question out to Matt.
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Walker
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 2:52 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Heavy wing
On Fri, 2011-11-11 at 17:20 -0500, Carl Froehlich wrote:
> Moving the offending attachment point
How does one "move the attach point"? The ailerons are attached to a powder
coated bracket that attaches at the pivot point of bracket riveted to the
spar - I just looked at my wings in the cradle and tried to imagine how this
would be done. Are you talking about elongating the holes in that bracket
to allow the aileron to shift up or down relative to that pivot point ?
A photo with some arrows to point things out would go a long way.
I'm not disagreeing, just trying to visualize how you did this.
--Ron
Message 21
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I am sure you probably checked this but is your rudder neutral with the
heavy wing. Does the heavyness change as you step on one side or the
other?
Gary Specketer
From: Rob Kochman
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 3:12 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Heavy wing
Hi, all... I have about 90 hours on the RV-10 now, and everything is
great, with the exception of a significantly heavy right wing. I feel
like I've tried just about everything, but still can't get it figured
out, so looking for suggestions from the group. Here's what I know (and
what I've ruled out):
a.. Using the standard aileron trim, it takes nearly full left trim to
keep the wings level at cruise speed. The heavy wing is less noticeable
at slower speeds, so it's definitely an aerodynamic problem.
b.. Problem has existed since first flight, so it's not a new issue
and not an issue with the leg and wheel fairings
c.. Rigghing is correct (per plans, verified with the aileron
bellcrank templates). I tried adjusting one side a little, but as you
can imagine, since the ailerons are interconnected, it didn't make a
difference).
d.. Flaps are even (measured with a digital level). just out of
curiosity, I lowered the right flap a little to see if it would make a
difference. It did not.
e.. Loading is even (i.e. see the problem w/ balanced load in the
cabin and balanced fuel tanks).
f.. Perhaps the most telling: when holding the airplane level, the
ailerons are even with the flaps (in the reflex position). When I let
go of the stick, with neutral trim, the left aileron goes down and the
right up slightly (maybe 1/8" at most). This is consistent with the
heavy left wing.
g.. I've verified that the ailerons are mounted evenly with respect to
the rear wing spar, since Van's "heavy wing" document says this can
cause issues.
h.. Ailerons seem to be well-built and symmetrical (they're
quickbuilds).
I've tried everything in Van's "heavy wing" document and talked to
several people over there. They don't have any ideas for me, other than
to put a wedge under the left aileron to balance it out (which I've had
on there for 60 hours or so). N410RV has a trim wedge, and one of the
guys at Van's says that Van's personal RV-10 has a sizeable trim wedge.
too. Though I'm usually pragmatic about issues like this, it seems that
adding the wedge is just admitting defeat--something is giving it a
heavy right wing (specifically something is deflecting the left aileron
down and the right aileron up), and I should be able to figure out what
it is.
Anyone have any ideas? Much appreciated.
-Rob
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
Message 22
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When I started flying mine I had a heavy wing. During phase 1 I was always a
lone, of course. Right rudder obviously helps and putting a right seater he
lps too. I remember reading a lot of these on the FAQ's on vans site. You m
ight want to look over these. They sell the brackets undrilled and recommen
d elongating the originals first.
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 11, 2011, at 13:12, Rob Kochman <rv10rob@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, all... I have about 90 hours on the RV-10 now, and everything is great
, with the exception of a significantly heavy right wing. I feel like I've t
ried just about everything, but still can't get it figured out, so looking f
or suggestions from the group. Here's what I know (and what I've ruled out)
:
> Using the standard aileron trim, it takes nearly full left trim to keep th
e wings level at cruise speed. The heavy wing is less noticeable at slower s
peeds, so it's definitely an aerodynamic problem.
> Problem has existed since first flight, so it's not a new issue and not an
issue with the leg and wheel fairings
> Rigghing is correct (per plans, verified with the aileron bellcrank templa
tes). I tried adjusting one side a little, but as you can imagine, since the
ailerons are interconnected, it didn't make a difference).
> Flaps are even (measured with a digital level). just out of curiosity, I l
owered the right flap a little to see if it would make a difference. It did
not.
> Loading is even (i.e. see the problem w/ balanced load in the cabin and ba
lanced fuel tanks).
> Perhaps the most telling: when holding the airplane level, the ailerons ar
e even with the flaps (in the reflex position). When I let go of the stick,
with neutral trim, the left aileron goes down and the right up slightly (ma
ybe 1/8" at most). This is consistent with the heavy left wing.
> I've verified that the ailerons are mounted evenly with respect to the rea
r wing spar, since Van's "heavy wing" document says this can cause issues.
> Ailerons seem to be well-built and symmetrical (they're quickbuilds).
> I've tried everything in Van's "heavy wing" document and talked to several
people over there. They don't have any ideas for me, other than to put a w
edge under the left aileron to balance it out (which I've had on there for 6
0 hours or so). N410RV has a trim wedge, and one of the guys at Van's says t
hat Van's personal RV-10 has a sizeable trim wedge. too. Though I'm usually
pragmatic about issues like this, it seems that adding the wedge is just ad
mitting defeat--something is giving it a heavy right wing (specifically some
thing is deflecting the left aileron down and the right aileron up), and I s
hould be able to figure out what it is.
>
> Anyone have any ideas? Much appreciated.
>
> -Rob
>
> --
> Rob Kochman
> RV-10 Flying since March 2011
> Woodinville, WA
> http://kochman.net/N819K
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 23
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re: moving the aileron down.
Yes, I elongated the holes in the steel bracket.
Vans sells undrilled brackets for exactly this purpose. Unfortunately, not for
the -10. But they say the ones for the -7 or -8 '...can be made to work...'.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357599#357599
Message 24
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I have seen several RV7s that the stock right aileron outer bracket made
that aileron 1/8-1/4" high..like Vans punched holes are off. I would
think builder error, except it is common when you start looking for it.
Doesn't take much elongation, and you can do say 1/16th on wing, 1/16th"
on bracket.
On 11/11/2011 7:15 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner"<bobturner@alum.rpi.edu>
>
> re: moving the aileron down.
> Yes, I elongated the holes in the steel bracket.
> Vans sells undrilled brackets for exactly this purpose. Unfortunately, not for
the -10. But they say the ones for the -7 or -8 '...can be made to work...'.
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357599#357599
>
>
Message 25
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I agree with Gary.
Try a rudder trim block if you don't have rudder trim. I thought I had
a heavy wing until I played with my rudder trim after the first few
flights.
David Leikam
RV10
Flying
On Nov 11, 2011, at 6:42 PM, Gary Specketer wrote:
> I am sure you probably checked this but is your rudder neutral with
the heavy wing. Does the heavyness change as you step on one side or
the other?
>
> Gary Specketer
>
> From: Rob Kochman
> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 3:12 PM
> To: rv10-list
> Subject: RV10-List: Heavy wing
>
> Hi, all... I have about 90 hours on the RV-10 now, and everything is
great, with the exception of a significantly heavy right wing. I feel
like I've tried just about everything, but still can't get it figured
out, so looking for suggestions from the group. Here's what I know (and
what I've ruled out):
> Using the standard aileron trim, it takes nearly full left trim to
keep the wings level at cruise speed. The heavy wing is less noticeable
at slower speeds, so it's definitely an aerodynamic problem.
> Problem has existed since first flight, so it's not a new issue and
not an issue with the leg and wheel fairings
> Rigghing is correct (per plans, verified with the aileron bellcrank
templates). I tried adjusting one side a little, but as you can imagine,
since the ailerons are interconnected, it didn't make a difference).
> Flaps are even (measured with a digital level). just out of
curiosity, I lowered the right flap a little to see if it would make a
difference. It did not.
> Loading is even (i.e. see the problem w/ balanced load in the cabin
and balanced fuel tanks).
> Perhaps the most telling: when holding the airplane level, the
ailerons are even with the flaps (in the reflex position). When I let
go of the stick, with neutral trim, the left aileron goes down and the
right up slightly (maybe 1/8" at most). This is consistent with the
heavy left wing.
> I've verified that the ailerons are mounted evenly with respect to the
rear wing spar, since Van's "heavy wing" document says this can cause
issues.
> Ailerons seem to be well-built and symmetrical (they're quickbuilds).
> I've tried everything in Van's "heavy wing" document and talked to
several people over there. They don't have any ideas for me, other than
to put a wedge under the left aileron to balance it out (which I've had
on there for 60 hours or so). N410RV has a trim wedge, and one of the
guys at Van's says that Van's personal RV-10 has a sizeable trim wedge.
too. Though I'm usually pragmatic about issues like this, it seems that
adding the wedge is just admitting defeat--something is giving it a
heavy right wing (specifically something is deflecting the left aileron
down and the right aileron up), and I should be able to figure out what
it is.
>
> Anyone have any ideas? Much appreciated.
>
> -Rob
>
> --
> Rob Kochman
> RV-10 Flying since March 2011
> Woodinville, WA
> http://kochman.net/N819K
>
>
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
>
Message 26
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Thanks, guys. It seems like my wing tips are even, and I've verified that
the rudder is correct (i.e. ball is centered) when noting the heavy wing.
I checked that the ailerons are mounted on the wing evenly, but I'll check
more closely. Not sure I would have noticed a 1/32" difference, and it
sounds like such a little difference might actually matter.
Thanks again, and I'll report back.
-Rob
On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 8:27 PM, David Leikam <arplnplt@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree with Gary.
> Try a rudder trim block if you don't have rudder trim. I thought I had a
> heavy wing until I played with my rudder trim after the first few flights.
>
> David Leikam
> RV10
> Flying
>
>
> On Nov 11, 2011, at 6:42 PM, Gary Specketer wrote:
>
> I am sure you probably checked this but is your rudder neutral with the
> heavy wing. Does the heavyness change as you step on one side or the other?
>
> Gary Specketer
>
> *From:* Rob Kochman <rv10rob@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 3:12 PM
> *To:* rv10-list <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Heavy wing
>
> Hi, all... I have about 90 hours on the RV-10 now, and everything is
> great, with the exception of a significantly heavy right wing. I feel like
> I've tried just about everything, but still can't get it figured out, so
> looking for suggestions from the group. Here's what I know (and what I've
> ruled out):
>
> - Using the standard aileron trim, it takes nearly full left trim to
> keep the wings level at cruise speed. The heavy wing is less noticeable at
> slower speeds, so it's definitely an aerodynamic problem.
> - Problem has existed since first flight, so it's not a new issue and
> not an issue with the leg and wheel fairings
> - Rigghing is correct (per plans, verified with the aileron bellcrank
> templates). I tried adjusting one side a little, but as you can imagine,
> since the ailerons are interconnected, it didn't make a difference).
> - Flaps are even (measured with a digital level). just out of
> curiosity, I lowered the right flap a little to see if it would make a
> difference. It did not.
> - Loading is even (i.e. see the problem w/ balanced load in the cabin
> and balanced fuel tanks).
> - Perhaps the most telling: when holding the airplane level, the
> ailerons are even with the flaps (in the reflex position). *When I
> let go of the stick, with neutral trim, the left aileron goes down and the
> right up slightly (maybe 1/8" at most). This is consistent with the heavy
> left wing.*
> - I've verified that the ailerons are mounted evenly with respect to
> the rear wing spar, since Van's "heavy wing" document says this can cause
> issues.
> - Ailerons seem to be well-built and symmetrical (they're
> quickbuilds).
>
> I've tried everything in Van's "heavy wing" document and talked to several
> people over there. They don't have any ideas for me, other than to put a
> wedge under the left aileron to balance it out (which I've had on there for
> 60 hours or so). N410RV has a trim wedge, and one of the guys at Van's
> says that Van's personal RV-10 has a sizeable trim wedge. too. Though I'm
> usually pragmatic about issues like this, it seems that adding the wedge is
> just admitting defeat--something is giving it a heavy right wing
> (specifically something is deflecting the left aileron down and the right
> aileron up), and I should be able to figure out what it is.
>
> Anyone have any ideas? Much appreciated.
>
> -Rob
>
> --
> Rob Kochman
> RV-10 Flying since March 2011
> Woodinville, WA
> http://kochman.net/N819K
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
>
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
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