---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/11/11: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:16 AM - Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists (Matt Dralle) 1. 06:46 AM - Re: Re: Insurance Question for the Group (Thane States) 2. 06:57 AM - Re: Insurance Question for the Group (tjyak50) 3. 10:01 AM - 40533 First Flight (jchang10) 4. 10:18 AM - Re: 40533 First Flight (Dave Saylor) 5. 10:20 AM - Re: 40533 First Flight (Robin Marks) 6. 11:01 AM - Re: Re: Insurance Question for the Group (Steve Farner) 7. 11:05 AM - Re: 40533 First Flight (Seano) 8. 11:08 AM - Re: 40533 First Flight (Jeff Carpenter) 9. 12:16 PM - Heavy wing (Rob Kochman) 10. 12:16 PM - Re: 40533 First Flight (Rob Kochman) 11. 12:49 PM - Re: 40533 First Flight () 12. 12:58 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Rene Felker) 13. 01:07 PM - Re: Insurance Question for the Group (Bob Turner) 14. 01:09 PM - Re: 40533 First Flight (Bob Turner) 15. 01:15 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Bob Turner) 16. 01:24 PM - Re: 40533 First Flight (Bill Watson) 17. 02:24 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Carl Froehlich) 18. 02:55 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Ron Walker) 19. 03:32 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Robin Marks) 20. 04:13 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Carl Froehlich) 21. 04:44 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Gary Specketer) 22. 05:10 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Seano) 23. 06:18 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Bob Turner) 24. 06:47 PM - Re: Re: Heavy wing (Kelly McMullen) 25. 08:33 PM - Re: Heavy wing (David Leikam) 26. 10:09 PM - Re: Heavy wing (Rob Kochman) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:16:45 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV10-List: Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists Dear Listers, There is no advertising income to support the Matronics Email Lists and Forums. The operation is supported 100% by your personal Contributions during the November Fund Raiser. Please make your Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these services. You can pick up a really nice gift for making your Contribution too! You may use a Credit Card or Paypal at the Matronics Contribution Site here: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or, you can send a personal check to the following address: Matronics / Matt Dralle 581 Jeannie Way Livermore, CA 94550 Thank you in advance for your generous support! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:50 AM PST US From: "Thane States" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Insurance Question for the Group I am not sure, but you have confused me with someone else. I dont want to split anything, I have no partner, just me. Are we on the same page?? Thane ----- Original Message ----- From: "tjyak50" Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 3:45 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Insurance Question for the Group > > Getting "Split Limits" is virtually impossible on smaller airplanes. On > some larger accounts it is not unusual to have them. > > Example on a turboprop that might have $10m liability when "pro-flown" but > only $3m when "owner flown". These policies bring a lot more money to > the underwriter so they are more likely to do something special. > > Your situation is pretty typical and not much can be done about it. In > the past i have had to cancel and re-write many policies for just this > reason when a new partner came into an airplane group. That gets to be > more work than some want to do. > > Not a whole lot of options in your case. > > Tj > www.airpowerinsurance.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357404#357404 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:29 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Insurance Question for the Group From: "tjyak50" Thane, my post referenced the original post on this subject. Nothing to do with our conversation. Happy Friday all. TJ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357514#357514 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:25 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: 40533 First Flight From: "jchang10" #40533 had its first flight a few weeks ago on 10/19/11 after 5 years and 11 months of building. (The slow build option added at least 2 years in my case.) The announcement is a bit overdue, but it sure has been a busy few weeks of test flying, taking panels and cowling on and off, and transitioning to being a pilot again. The plane flies straight, level, and oh so fast and has met or exceeded so many expectations. It truly is a wonderful feeling to have finally gotten here. Thanks go out to all those people in this wonderful community that have provided guidance, answered stupid questions :), and otherwise contributed their knowledge to the collective knowledge base over the years. I hope to meet some of you in some future fly-ins now that i have a means of getting there! :) Jae Phase 1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:18:30 AM PST US From: Dave Saylor Subject: Re: RV10-List: 40533 First Flight Congrats Jae, is WVI in your radius? Stop in when you can. Dave Saylor AirCrafters 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 95076 831-722-9141 Shop 831-750-0284 Cell On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 9:58 AM, jchang10 wrote: > > #40533 had its first flight a few weeks ago on 10/19/11 after 5 years and 11 months of building. (The slow build option added at least 2 years in my case.) The announcement is a bit overdue, but it sure has been a busy few weeks of test flying, taking panels and cowling on and off, and transitioning to being a pilot again. > > The plane flies straight, level, and oh so fast and has met or exceeded so many expectations. It truly is a wonderful feeling to have finally gotten here. Thanks go out to all those people in this wonderful community that have provided guidance, answered stupid questions :), and otherwise contributed their knowledge to the collective knowledge base over the years. I hope to meet some of you in some future fly-ins now that i have a means of getting there! :) > > Jae > Phase 1 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:20:28 AM PST US From: Robin Marks Subject: RE: RV10-List: 40533 First Flight Way to go Jae! Have a fun & safe Phase 1. Robin Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jchang10 Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 9:58 AM Subject: RV10-List: 40533 First Flight --> #40533 had its first flight a few weeks ago on 10/19/11 after 5 years and 11 months of building. (The slow build option added at least 2 years in my case.) The announcement is a bit overdue, but it sure has been a busy few weeks of test flying, taking panels and cowling on and off, and transitioning to being a pilot again. The plane flies straight, level, and oh so fast and has met or exceeded so many expectations. It truly is a wonderful feeling to have finally gotten here. Thanks go out to all those people in this wonderful community that have provided guidance, answered stupid questions :), and otherwise contributed their knowledge to the collective knowledge base over the years. I hope to meet some of you in some future fly-ins now that i have a means of getting there! :) Jae Phase 1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:01:34 AM PST US From: Steve Farner Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Insurance Question for the Group Hi All- Thanks for the information. Maybe if I promise to always fly the Bonanza with the gear down? :) I realize they are going by the statistics, but it is interesting/frustrating that they put so much emphasis on the gear. I might be wrong on this, but it would seem that 100 hours in a 172RG would bring my rates dowm more than 100 hours in an RV10 (to fly a Bonanza). The other perplexing thing is why they just won't write a policy at a higher premium. I can see the premium doubling if I request 2m liability versus 1m, but am less clear why they won't write it at all. Thanks for the responses! Steve Farner ________________________________________ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tjyak50 [tomjohnson@cox.net] Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 2:45 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Insurance Question for the Group Getting "Split Limits" is virtually impossible on smaller airplanes. On some larger accounts it is not unusual to have them. Example on a turboprop that might have $10m liability when "pro-flown" but only $3m when "owner flown". These policies bring a lot more money to the underwriter so they are more likely to do something special. Your situation is pretty typical and not much can be done about it. In the past i have had to cancel and re-write many policies for just this reason when a new partner came into an airplane group. That gets to be more work than some want to do. Not a whole lot of options in your case. Tj www.airpowerinsurance.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357404#357404 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:05:48 AM PST US From: "Seano" Subject: Re: RV10-List: 40533 First Flight Nice work Jae! ----- Original Message ----- From: "jchang10" Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 10:58 AM Subject: RV10-List: 40533 First Flight > > #40533 had its first flight a few weeks ago on 10/19/11 after 5 years and > 11 months of building. (The slow build option added at least 2 years in my > case.) The announcement is a bit overdue, but it sure has been a busy few > weeks of test flying, taking panels and cowling on and off, and > transitioning to being a pilot again. > > The plane flies straight, level, and oh so fast and has met or exceeded so > many expectations. It truly is a wonderful feeling to have finally gotten > here. Thanks go out to all those people in this wonderful community that > have provided guidance, answered stupid questions :), and otherwise > contributed their knowledge to the collective knowledge base over the > years. I hope to meet some of you in some future fly-ins now that i have a > means of getting there! :) > > Jae > Phase 1 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535 > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:08:19 AM PST US From: Jeff Carpenter Subject: Re: RV10-List: 40533 First Flight congrats Jae... that's great news. On Nov 11, 2011, at 9:58 AM, jchang10 wrote: > > > > #40533 had its first flight a few weeks ago on 10/19/11 after 5 > years and 11 months of building. (The slow build option added at > least 2 years in my case.) The announcement is a bit overdue, but it > sure has been a busy few weeks of test flying, taking panels and > cowling on and off, and transitioning to being a pilot again. > > The plane flies straight, level, and oh so fast and has met or > exceeded so many expectations. It truly is a wonderful feeling to > have finally gotten here. Thanks go out to all those people in this > wonderful community that have provided guidance, answered stupid > questions :), and otherwise contributed their knowledge to the > collective knowledge base over the years. I hope to meet some of you > in some future fly-ins now that i have a means of getting there! :) > > Jae > Phase 1 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:16:20 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Heavy wing From: Rob Kochman Hi, all... I have about 90 hours on the RV-10 now, and everything is great, with the exception of a significantly heavy right wing. I feel like I've tried just about everything, but still can't get it figured out, so looking for suggestions from the group. Here's what I know (and what I've ruled out): - Using the standard aileron trim, it takes nearly full left trim to keep the wings level at cruise speed. The heavy wing is less noticeable at slower speeds, so it's definitely an aerodynamic problem. - Problem has existed since first flight, so it's not a new issue and not an issue with the leg and wheel fairings - Rigghing is correct (per plans, verified with the aileron bellcrank templates). I tried adjusting one side a little, but as you can imagine, since the ailerons are interconnected, it didn't make a difference). - Flaps are even (measured with a digital level). just out of curiosity, I lowered the right flap a little to see if it would make a difference. It did not. - Loading is even (i.e. see the problem w/ balanced load in the cabin and balanced fuel tanks). - Perhaps the most telling: when holding the airplane level, the ailerons are even with the flaps (in the reflex position). *When I let go of the stick, with neutral trim, the left aileron goes down and the right up slightly (maybe 1/8" at most). This is consistent with the heavy left wing.* - I've verified that the ailerons are mounted evenly with respect to the rear wing spar, since Van's "heavy wing" document says this can cause issues. - Ailerons seem to be well-built and symmetrical (they're quickbuilds). I've tried everything in Van's "heavy wing" document and talked to several people over there. They don't have any ideas for me, other than to put a wedge under the left aileron to balance it out (which I've had on there for 60 hours or so). N410RV has a trim wedge, and one of the guys at Van's says that Van's personal RV-10 has a sizeable trim wedge. too. Though I'm usually pragmatic about issues like this, it seems that adding the wedge is just admitting defeat--something is giving it a heavy right wing (specifically something is deflecting the left aileron down and the right aileron up), and I should be able to figure out what it is. Anyone have any ideas? Much appreciated. -Rob -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Flying since March 2011 Woodinville, WA http://kochman.net/N819K ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:20 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: 40533 First Flight From: Rob Kochman Congrats! On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Jeff Carpenter wrote: > > congrats Jae... that's great news. > > > On Nov 11, 2011, at 9:58 AM, jchang10 wrote: > >> >> #40533 had its first flight a few weeks ago on 10/19/11 after 5 years and >> 11 months of building. (The slow build option added at least 2 years in my >> case.) The announcement is a bit overdue, but it sure has been a busy few >> weeks of test flying, taking panels and cowling on and off, and >> transitioning to being a pilot again. >> >> The plane flies straight, level, and oh so fast and has met or exceeded >> so many expectations. It truly is a wonderful feeling to have finally >> gotten here. Thanks go out to all those people in this wonderful community >> that have provided guidance, answered stupid questions :), and otherwise >> contributed their knowledge to the collective knowledge base over the >> years. I hope to meet some of you in some future fly-ins now that i have a >> means of getting there! :) >> >> Jae >> Phase 1 >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/**viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Flying since March 2011 Woodinville, WA http://kochman.net/N819K ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:44 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV10-List: 40533 First Flight Jae: Welcome aboard. I just got back to CA from Maine and, as usual, will be at KLVK until June. Where is your plane hangered? Give me a call so we can get together--I would love to check it out. Jay Rowe (207) 692-7093. wrote: > > #40533 had its first flight a few weeks ago on 10/19/11 after 5 years and 11 months of building. (The slow build option added at least 2 years in my case.) The announcement is a bit overdue, but it sure has been a busy few weeks of test flying, taking panels and cowling on and off, and transitioning to being a pilot again. > > The plane flies straight, level, and oh so fast and has met or exceeded so many expectations. It truly is a wonderful feeling to have finally gotten here. Thanks go out to all those people in this wonderful community that have provided guidance, answered stupid questions :), and otherwise contributed their knowledge to the collective knowledge base over the years. I hope to meet some of you in some future fly-ins now that i have a means of getting there! :) > > Jae > Phase 1 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:44 PM PST US From: "Rene Felker" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Heavy wing This may have no merit...so... Wing tip? I did not see anything about checking the wingtip and their position and possible effect. I spent a lot of time rebuilding mine because they did not line up with my Ailerons and were not the same on both sides. If I remember right , the tips have a little bit of a dihedral to them and being way out there on the wing, they could have a big effect if they were different. Just a wag.. Good luck, don't let the #$%$ win...or just go ugly early and put the wedge on.. Rene' Felker N423CF 801-721-6080 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kochman Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 1:13 PM Subject: RV10-List: Heavy wing Hi, all... I have about 90 hours on the RV-10 now, and everything is great, with the exception of a significantly heavy right wing. I feel like I've tried just about everything, but still can't get it figured out, so looking for suggestions from the group. Here's what I know (and what I've ruled out): * Using the standard aileron trim, it takes nearly full left trim to keep the wings level at cruise speed. The heavy wing is less noticeable at slower speeds, so it's definitely an aerodynamic problem. * Problem has existed since first flight, so it's not a new issue and not an issue with the leg and wheel fairings * Rigghing is correct (per plans, verified with the aileron bellcrank templates). I tried adjusting one side a little, but as you can imagine, since the ailerons are interconnected, it didn't make a difference). * Flaps are even (measured with a digital level). just out of curiosity, I lowered the right flap a little to see if it would make a difference. It did not. * Loading is even (i.e. see the problem w/ balanced load in the cabin and balanced fuel tanks). * Perhaps the most telling: when holding the airplane level, the ailerons are even with the flaps (in the reflex position). When I let go of the stick, with neutral trim, the left aileron goes down and the right up slightly (maybe 1/8" at most). This is consistent with the heavy left wing. * I've verified that the ailerons are mounted evenly with respect to the rear wing spar, since Van's "heavy wing" document says this can cause issues. * Ailerons seem to be well-built and symmetrical (they're quickbuilds). I've tried everything in Van's "heavy wing" document and talked to several people over there. They don't have any ideas for me, other than to put a wedge under the left aileron to balance it out (which I've had on there for 60 hours or so). N410RV has a trim wedge, and one of the guys at Van's says that Van's personal RV-10 has a sizeable trim wedge. too. Though I'm usually pragmatic about issues like this, it seems that adding the wedge is just admitting defeat--something is giving it a heavy right wing (specifically something is deflecting the left aileron down and the right aileron up), and I should be able to figure out what it is. Anyone have any ideas? Much appreciated. -Rob -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Flying since March 2011 Woodinville, WA http://kochman.net/N819K ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:16 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Insurance Question for the Group From: "Bob Turner" Steve, I'd guess you're wrong about the last post, since the emphasis here seems to be on liability coverage. No one gets hurt in gear up landings, so retract time affects hull coverage more than liability. OTOH, a V35 or an RV-10 is not a 172RG. Things happen much faster, it's easier for pilots to be overwhelmed, get behind, etc. I've been impressed by how quickly a 10 with full flaps can lose speed with just a little back pressure. A 172RG doesn't even qualify as a high performance airplane per the FARs. I may be wrong, but I'd guess it's your lack of time in a high speed airplane that's driving this. Of course the insurance industry is hard to understand. When I was in our 182 partnership, the second $1M of liability cost more than the first $1M! I have no explanation for that. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357567#357567 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:36 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: 40533 First Flight From: "Bob Turner" Congratulations (from another KLVK based -10). Where are you based? Is LVK in your phase 1 area? Bob -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357568#357568 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:06 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Heavy wing From: "Bob Turner" I know you said you tried everything in Van's 'help' document, but.... In my case it was the left wing heavy in flight, and I could see the ailerons deflected, too. I moved the left aileron outboard attachment point lower by about 1/32" (barely noticeable) and it took out 90% of the heaviness. e.g., it is very sensitive to this. Bob -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357569#357569 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:10 PM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: RV10-List: 40533 First Flight Congratulations - the next phase of enjoyment begins... > --> RV10-List message posted by: "jchang10" > > #40533 had its first flight a few weeks ago on 10/19/11 after 5 years and 11 months of building. (The slow build option added at least 2 years in my case.) The announcement is a bit overdue, but it sure has been a busy few weeks of test flying, taking panels and cowling on and off, and transitioning to being a pilot again. > > The plane flies straight, level, and oh so fast and has met or exceeded so many expectations. It truly is a wonderful feeling to have finally gotten here. Thanks go out to all those people in this wonderful community that have provided guidance, answered stupid questions :), and otherwise contributed their knowledge to the collective knowledge base over the years. I hope to meet some of you in some future fly-ins now that i have a means of getting there! :) > > Jae > Phase 1 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357535#357535 > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:11 PM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Heavy wing As already mentioned, check the aileron height (compare left/right at inboard and outboard attach points using a straight edge running aft off the wing). A very small difference between aileron heights will make a big difference - and just how heavy the wing is will be dependent on speed. I found this problem in several heavy wing RVs, including my RV-8A. Moving the offending attachment point completely solve my problem on the 8A. Other things to look at: - Do not assume that if the ailerons (in neutral position) are even with the flaps (in reflex position) that they are rigged correctly as there may be a slight twist in the flap. Put the flaps in the reflex position, clamp one aileron to the flap, then compare using a straight edge running aft off the wing the two ailerons deflection. If there is a difference, adjust the push rods until they are exactly the same. - Do the same straight edge measurement on the flaps to compare. If you do have a slight twist in a flap, I would expect that you can compensate for it if the ailerons are symmetrically rigged as they provide the higher moment arm. - Once you have the ailerons at the same deflection, then look at the wingtips. When building the wingtips you can move the wingtip tailing edge up or down a good quarter of an inch when fitting the aft rib. Of note, the easy tone in Van's instructions on rigging the aircraft never seemed right for me. After chasing my tail on a heavy wing I went back to basics as discussed above and found the small difference in aileron mount height. Rigging is a big deal - and something that few will get right on the first attempt. Carl From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kochman Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 3:13 PM Subject: RV10-List: Heavy wing Hi, all... I have about 90 hours on the RV-10 now, and everything is great, with the exception of a significantly heavy right wing. I feel like I've tried just about everything, but still can't get it figured out, so looking for suggestions from the group. Here's what I know (and what I've ruled out): * Using the standard aileron trim, it takes nearly full left trim to keep the wings level at cruise speed. The heavy wing is less noticeable at slower speeds, so it's definitely an aerodynamic problem. * Problem has existed since first flight, so it's not a new issue and not an issue with the leg and wheel fairings * Rigghing is correct (per plans, verified with the aileron bellcrank templates). I tried adjusting one side a little, but as you can imagine, since the ailerons are interconnected, it didn't make a difference). * Flaps are even (measured with a digital level). just out of curiosity, I lowered the right flap a little to see if it would make a difference. It did not. * Loading is even (i.e. see the problem w/ balanced load in the cabin and balanced fuel tanks). * Perhaps the most telling: when holding the airplane level, the ailerons are even with the flaps (in the reflex position). When I let go of the stick, with neutral trim, the left aileron goes down and the right up slightly (maybe 1/8" at most). This is consistent with the heavy left wing. * I've verified that the ailerons are mounted evenly with respect to the rear wing spar, since Van's "heavy wing" document says this can cause issues. * Ailerons seem to be well-built and symmetrical (they're quickbuilds). I've tried everything in Van's "heavy wing" document and talked to several people over there. They don't have any ideas for me, other than to put a wedge under the left aileron to balance it out (which I've had on there for 60 hours or so). N410RV has a trim wedge, and one of the guys at Van's says that Van's personal RV-10 has a sizeable trim wedge. too. Though I'm usually pragmatic about issues like this, it seems that adding the wedge is just admitting defeat--something is giving it a heavy right wing (specifically something is deflecting the left aileron down and the right aileron up), and I should be able to figure out what it is. Anyone have any ideas? Much appreciated. -Rob -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Flying since March 2011 Woodinville, WA http://kochman.net/N819K ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:17 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Heavy wing From: Ron Walker On Fri, 2011-11-11 at 17:20 -0500, Carl Froehlich wrote: > Moving the offending attachment point How does one "move the attach point"? The ailerons are attached to a powder coated bracket that attaches at the pivot point of bracket riveted to the spar - I just looked at my wings in the cradle and tried to imagine how this would be done. Are you talking about elongating the holes in that bracket to allow the aileron to shift up or down relative to that pivot point ? A photo with some arrows to point things out would go a long way. I'm not disagreeing, just trying to visualize how you did this. --Ron ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:00 PM PST US From: Robin Marks Subject: RE: RV10-List: Heavy wing I think Matt elongated the hole on his -8 with success. I believe he was surprised at how very small the hole modification required. One may want to check the recent archives or throw the question out to Matt. Robin -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Walker Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 2:52 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Heavy wing On Fri, 2011-11-11 at 17:20 -0500, Carl Froehlich wrote: > Moving the offending attachment point How does one "move the attach point"? The ailerons are attached to a powder coated bracket that attaches at the pivot point of bracket riveted to the spar - I just looked at my wings in the cradle and tried to imagine how this would be done. Are you talking about elongating the holes in that bracket to allow the aileron to shift up or down relative to that pivot point ? A photo with some arrows to point things out would go a long way. I'm not disagreeing, just trying to visualize how you did this. --Ron ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:39 PM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Heavy wing On the 8A I got the brackets from Van's that don't have holes and drilled holes slightly offset from center. I don't know if these "no hole" brackets are available for the 10. I've seen others elongate the holes the small amount needed (I understand this was the advice the person received from Van's but that is second hand). Another approach is to take the current brackets and weld the holes shut, grind the weld flat and then re-drill. If the aileron height is off, you typically only need to adjust one bracket as the fix. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 6:30 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Heavy wing I think Matt elongated the hole on his -8 with success. I believe he was surprised at how very small the hole modification required. One may want to check the recent archives or throw the question out to Matt. Robin -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Walker Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 2:52 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Heavy wing On Fri, 2011-11-11 at 17:20 -0500, Carl Froehlich wrote: > Moving the offending attachment point How does one "move the attach point"? The ailerons are attached to a powder coated bracket that attaches at the pivot point of bracket riveted to the spar - I just looked at my wings in the cradle and tried to imagine how this would be done. Are you talking about elongating the holes in that bracket to allow the aileron to shift up or down relative to that pivot point ? A photo with some arrows to point things out would go a long way. I'm not disagreeing, just trying to visualize how you did this. --Ron ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:54 PM PST US From: "Gary Specketer" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Heavy wing I am sure you probably checked this but is your rudder neutral with the heavy wing. Does the heavyness change as you step on one side or the other? Gary Specketer From: Rob Kochman Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 3:12 PM Subject: RV10-List: Heavy wing Hi, all... I have about 90 hours on the RV-10 now, and everything is great, with the exception of a significantly heavy right wing. I feel like I've tried just about everything, but still can't get it figured out, so looking for suggestions from the group. Here's what I know (and what I've ruled out): a.. Using the standard aileron trim, it takes nearly full left trim to keep the wings level at cruise speed. The heavy wing is less noticeable at slower speeds, so it's definitely an aerodynamic problem. b.. Problem has existed since first flight, so it's not a new issue and not an issue with the leg and wheel fairings c.. Rigghing is correct (per plans, verified with the aileron bellcrank templates). I tried adjusting one side a little, but as you can imagine, since the ailerons are interconnected, it didn't make a difference). d.. Flaps are even (measured with a digital level). just out of curiosity, I lowered the right flap a little to see if it would make a difference. It did not. e.. Loading is even (i.e. see the problem w/ balanced load in the cabin and balanced fuel tanks). f.. Perhaps the most telling: when holding the airplane level, the ailerons are even with the flaps (in the reflex position). When I let go of the stick, with neutral trim, the left aileron goes down and the right up slightly (maybe 1/8" at most). This is consistent with the heavy left wing. g.. I've verified that the ailerons are mounted evenly with respect to the rear wing spar, since Van's "heavy wing" document says this can cause issues. h.. Ailerons seem to be well-built and symmetrical (they're quickbuilds). I've tried everything in Van's "heavy wing" document and talked to several people over there. They don't have any ideas for me, other than to put a wedge under the left aileron to balance it out (which I've had on there for 60 hours or so). N410RV has a trim wedge, and one of the guys at Van's says that Van's personal RV-10 has a sizeable trim wedge. too. Though I'm usually pragmatic about issues like this, it seems that adding the wedge is just admitting defeat--something is giving it a heavy right wing (specifically something is deflecting the left aileron down and the right aileron up), and I should be able to figure out what it is. Anyone have any ideas? Much appreciated. -Rob -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Flying since March 2011 Woodinville, WA http://kochman.net/N819K ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:53 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Heavy wing From: Seano When I started flying mine I had a heavy wing. During phase 1 I was always a lone, of course. Right rudder obviously helps and putting a right seater he lps too. I remember reading a lot of these on the FAQ's on vans site. You m ight want to look over these. They sell the brackets undrilled and recommen d elongating the originals first. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 11, 2011, at 13:12, Rob Kochman wrote: > Hi, all... I have about 90 hours on the RV-10 now, and everything is great , with the exception of a significantly heavy right wing. I feel like I've t ried just about everything, but still can't get it figured out, so looking f or suggestions from the group. Here's what I know (and what I've ruled out) : > Using the standard aileron trim, it takes nearly full left trim to keep th e wings level at cruise speed. The heavy wing is less noticeable at slower s peeds, so it's definitely an aerodynamic problem. > Problem has existed since first flight, so it's not a new issue and not an issue with the leg and wheel fairings > Rigghing is correct (per plans, verified with the aileron bellcrank templa tes). I tried adjusting one side a little, but as you can imagine, since the ailerons are interconnected, it didn't make a difference). > Flaps are even (measured with a digital level). just out of curiosity, I l owered the right flap a little to see if it would make a difference. It did not. > Loading is even (i.e. see the problem w/ balanced load in the cabin and ba lanced fuel tanks). > Perhaps the most telling: when holding the airplane level, the ailerons ar e even with the flaps (in the reflex position). When I let go of the stick, with neutral trim, the left aileron goes down and the right up slightly (ma ybe 1/8" at most). This is consistent with the heavy left wing. > I've verified that the ailerons are mounted evenly with respect to the rea r wing spar, since Van's "heavy wing" document says this can cause issues. > Ailerons seem to be well-built and symmetrical (they're quickbuilds). > I've tried everything in Van's "heavy wing" document and talked to several people over there. They don't have any ideas for me, other than to put a w edge under the left aileron to balance it out (which I've had on there for 6 0 hours or so). N410RV has a trim wedge, and one of the guys at Van's says t hat Van's personal RV-10 has a sizeable trim wedge. too. Though I'm usually pragmatic about issues like this, it seems that adding the wedge is just ad mitting defeat--something is giving it a heavy right wing (specifically some thing is deflecting the left aileron down and the right aileron up), and I s hould be able to figure out what it is. > > Anyone have any ideas? Much appreciated. > > -Rob > > -- > Rob Kochman > RV-10 Flying since March 2011 > Woodinville, WA > http://kochman.net/N819K > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:39 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Heavy wing From: "Bob Turner" re: moving the aileron down. Yes, I elongated the holes in the steel bracket. Vans sells undrilled brackets for exactly this purpose. Unfortunately, not for the -10. But they say the ones for the -7 or -8 '...can be made to work...'. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357599#357599 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:38 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Heavy wing I have seen several RV7s that the stock right aileron outer bracket made that aileron 1/8-1/4" high..like Vans punched holes are off. I would think builder error, except it is common when you start looking for it. Doesn't take much elongation, and you can do say 1/16th on wing, 1/16th" on bracket. On 11/11/2011 7:15 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" > > re: moving the aileron down. > Yes, I elongated the holes in the steel bracket. > Vans sells undrilled brackets for exactly this purpose. Unfortunately, not for the -10. But they say the ones for the -7 or -8 '...can be made to work...'. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357599#357599 > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:33 PM PST US From: David Leikam Subject: Re: RV10-List: Heavy wing I agree with Gary. Try a rudder trim block if you don't have rudder trim. I thought I had a heavy wing until I played with my rudder trim after the first few flights. David Leikam RV10 Flying On Nov 11, 2011, at 6:42 PM, Gary Specketer wrote: > I am sure you probably checked this but is your rudder neutral with the heavy wing. Does the heavyness change as you step on one side or the other? > > Gary Specketer > > From: Rob Kochman > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 3:12 PM > To: rv10-list > Subject: RV10-List: Heavy wing > > Hi, all... I have about 90 hours on the RV-10 now, and everything is great, with the exception of a significantly heavy right wing. I feel like I've tried just about everything, but still can't get it figured out, so looking for suggestions from the group. Here's what I know (and what I've ruled out): > Using the standard aileron trim, it takes nearly full left trim to keep the wings level at cruise speed. The heavy wing is less noticeable at slower speeds, so it's definitely an aerodynamic problem. > Problem has existed since first flight, so it's not a new issue and not an issue with the leg and wheel fairings > Rigghing is correct (per plans, verified with the aileron bellcrank templates). I tried adjusting one side a little, but as you can imagine, since the ailerons are interconnected, it didn't make a difference). > Flaps are even (measured with a digital level). just out of curiosity, I lowered the right flap a little to see if it would make a difference. It did not. > Loading is even (i.e. see the problem w/ balanced load in the cabin and balanced fuel tanks). > Perhaps the most telling: when holding the airplane level, the ailerons are even with the flaps (in the reflex position). When I let go of the stick, with neutral trim, the left aileron goes down and the right up slightly (maybe 1/8" at most). This is consistent with the heavy left wing. > I've verified that the ailerons are mounted evenly with respect to the rear wing spar, since Van's "heavy wing" document says this can cause issues. > Ailerons seem to be well-built and symmetrical (they're quickbuilds). > I've tried everything in Van's "heavy wing" document and talked to several people over there. They don't have any ideas for me, other than to put a wedge under the left aileron to balance it out (which I've had on there for 60 hours or so). N410RV has a trim wedge, and one of the guys at Van's says that Van's personal RV-10 has a sizeable trim wedge. too. Though I'm usually pragmatic about issues like this, it seems that adding the wedge is just admitting defeat--something is giving it a heavy right wing (specifically something is deflecting the left aileron down and the right aileron up), and I should be able to figure out what it is. > > Anyone have any ideas? Much appreciated. > > -Rob > > -- > Rob Kochman > RV-10 Flying since March 2011 > Woodinville, WA > http://kochman.net/N819K > > > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?RV10-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:10 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Heavy wing From: Rob Kochman Thanks, guys. It seems like my wing tips are even, and I've verified that the rudder is correct (i.e. ball is centered) when noting the heavy wing. I checked that the ailerons are mounted on the wing evenly, but I'll check more closely. Not sure I would have noticed a 1/32" difference, and it sounds like such a little difference might actually matter. Thanks again, and I'll report back. -Rob On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 8:27 PM, David Leikam wrote: > I agree with Gary. > Try a rudder trim block if you don't have rudder trim. I thought I had a > heavy wing until I played with my rudder trim after the first few flights. > > David Leikam > RV10 > Flying > > > On Nov 11, 2011, at 6:42 PM, Gary Specketer wrote: > > I am sure you probably checked this but is your rudder neutral with the > heavy wing. Does the heavyness change as you step on one side or the other? > > Gary Specketer > > *From:* Rob Kochman > *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 3:12 PM > *To:* rv10-list > *Subject:* RV10-List: Heavy wing > > Hi, all... I have about 90 hours on the RV-10 now, and everything is > great, with the exception of a significantly heavy right wing. I feel like > I've tried just about everything, but still can't get it figured out, so > looking for suggestions from the group. Here's what I know (and what I've > ruled out): > > - Using the standard aileron trim, it takes nearly full left trim to > keep the wings level at cruise speed. The heavy wing is less noticeable at > slower speeds, so it's definitely an aerodynamic problem. > - Problem has existed since first flight, so it's not a new issue and > not an issue with the leg and wheel fairings > - Rigghing is correct (per plans, verified with the aileron bellcrank > templates). I tried adjusting one side a little, but as you can imagine, > since the ailerons are interconnected, it didn't make a difference). > - Flaps are even (measured with a digital level). just out of > curiosity, I lowered the right flap a little to see if it would make a > difference. It did not. > - Loading is even (i.e. see the problem w/ balanced load in the cabin > and balanced fuel tanks). > - Perhaps the most telling: when holding the airplane level, the > ailerons are even with the flaps (in the reflex position). *When I > let go of the stick, with neutral trim, the left aileron goes down and the > right up slightly (maybe 1/8" at most). This is consistent with the heavy > left wing.* > - I've verified that the ailerons are mounted evenly with respect to > the rear wing spar, since Van's "heavy wing" document says this can cause > issues. > - Ailerons seem to be well-built and symmetrical (they're > quickbuilds). > > I've tried everything in Van's "heavy wing" document and talked to several > people over there. They don't have any ideas for me, other than to put a > wedge under the left aileron to balance it out (which I've had on there for > 60 hours or so). N410RV has a trim wedge, and one of the guys at Van's > says that Van's personal RV-10 has a sizeable trim wedge. too. Though I'm > usually pragmatic about issues like this, it seems that adding the wedge is > just admitting defeat--something is giving it a heavy right wing > (specifically something is deflecting the left aileron down and the right > aileron up), and I should be able to figure out what it is. > > Anyone have any ideas? Much appreciated. > > -Rob > > -- > Rob Kochman > RV-10 Flying since March 2011 > Woodinville, WA > http://kochman.net/N819K > > * > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > * > > * > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > > href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > > * > > > * > > -- Rob Kochman RV-10 Flying since March 2011 Woodinville, WA http://kochman.net/N819K ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.