---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/21/11: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 09:27 AM - Make Sure You're Listed -- List of Contributors Published Dec 1! (Matt Dralle) 1. 07:02 AM - Re: Why you don't just strap the stick back... (rv10flyer) 2. 07:48 AM - Re: Re: Why you don't just strap the stick back... (Marcus Cooper) 3. 08:28 AM - Re: Re: Why you don't just strap the stick back... (Rick Lark) 4. 08:37 AM - Re: Why you don't just strap the stick back... (Robin Marks) 5. 12:36 PM - Baggage area width @ door? (Tim Olson) 6. 01:06 PM - Re: Baggage area width @ door? (Geoff Combs) 7. 01:16 PM - Re: Baggage area width @ door? (Jay Rowe) 8. 01:20 PM - Re: Baggage area width @ door? (johngoodman) 9. 01:22 PM - Re: Baggage area width @ door? (Jeff Carpenter) 10. 01:22 PM - Re: Baggage area width @ door? (Tim Olson) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 09:27:06 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV10-List: Make Sure You're Listed -- List of Contributors Published Dec 1! Dear Listers, The List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner! On December 1st I post a list of everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation for the Lists. As a number of people have pointed out in their Contribution comments, the Lists are a whole lot more valuable than your typical magazine subscription! Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Visa, MasterCard, or Paypal account: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matronics / Matt Dralle 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus far during this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps these Lists running and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about how the Lists have helped you! Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:00 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Why you don't just strap the stick back... From: "rv10flyer" It does not matter what position your flaps and elevator are in if your plane is not securely tied to Earth like that one appears. I will strap my flight controls to prevent damage to them, not to keep the plane from flying on its own. I understand that control position will affect the pull on the ropes/anchors. If I am aware of 30+ kt winds forecasted, I hope I can hangar it or fly it out in time. If not then I will try to have full fuel, max baggage in front floor area and flaps up. Check wx often when our babies are parked outside. -------- Wayne Gillispie, A&P 5/93, PPC 10/08 Bldr# 40983SB Final assembly, aw cert, transition training with David Maib. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358622#358622 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Why you don't just strap the stick back... From: Marcus Cooper I agree that a properly tied down aircraft is not going to be able to rotate and thus gain lift regardless of the wind, and this practice is seen far and wide in both experimental and certified aircraft. I found it a bit surprising that there were such strong feelings about how "dumb" this technique was and yet laud the idea of hovering at 2-20 feet in strong winds. I would offer that there is no such thing as a guaranteed strong "steady" wind and a sudden decrease while hovering a little above stall speed at these altitudes would result in a day far more exciting than desired as you are falling nose low into the concrete. I knew a guy while I was in high school that was generous enough to let my fly his C-150. He started hotdogging takeoffs (unbeknownst to me) and would build up some speed then zoom up and then push over as the plane got slow (not much of a zoom in a 150). After he happened across a slight windshear going up one day the plane stalled and he fell sideways into a parked row of airplanes. He walked away, but my free airplane was no longer available. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about doing fun things with the appropriate airplane and conditions, I like to watch a J-3 stop in a matter of feet after landing on a day with a little wind, and for 20 years I was paid to fly anything BUT straight and level so I'll do anything in a airplane right up to the "stupid is as stupid does" point. Just my opinion of course, but I was a little amazed at the combination of ideas and emotions in this thread. Have a Happy Thanksgiving! Marcus do not archive On Nov 21, 2011, at 9:58 AM, rv10flyer wrote: It does not matter what position your flaps and elevator are in if your plane is not securely tied to Earth like that one appears. I will strap my flight controls to prevent damage to them, not to keep the plane from flying on its own. I understand that control position will affect the pull on the ropes/anchors. If I am aware of 30+ kt winds forecasted, I hope I can hangar it or fly it out in time. If not then I will try to have full fuel, max baggage in front floor area and flaps up. Check wx often when our babies are parked outside. -------- Wayne Gillispie, A&P 5/93, PPC 10/08 Bldr# 40983SB Final assembly, aw cert, transition training with David Maib. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358622#358622 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:37 AM PST US From: Rick Lark Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Why you don't just strap the stick back... Hey all, sorry if I upset anyone with my musings. Like I said, I've never attempted these stunts myself and have managed in 34 years to have never put a small dent in any aluminum. Hopefully I can keep it that way when I get my -10 completed......Rick do not archive --- On Mon, 11/21/11, Marcus Cooper wrote: > From: Marcus Cooper > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Why you don't just strap the stick back... > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Received: Monday, November 21, 2011, 3:45 PM > Marcus Cooper > > I agree that a properly tied down aircraft is not going to > be able to rotate and thus gain lift regardless of the wind, > and this practice is seen far and wide in both experimental > and certified aircraft. I found it a bit surprising > that there were such strong feelings about how "dumb" this > technique was and yet laud the idea of hovering at 2-20 feet > in strong winds. I would offer that there is no such > thing as a guaranteed strong "steady" wind and a sudden > decrease while hovering a little above stall speed at these > altitudes would result in a day far more exciting than > desired as you are falling nose low into the concrete. > I knew a guy while I was in high school that was generous > enough to let my fly his C-150. He started hotdogging > takeoffs (unbeknownst to me) and would build up some speed > then zoom up and then push over as the plane got slow (not > much of a zoom in a 150). After he happened across a > slight windshear going up one day the plane stalled and he > fell sidewa! > ys into a parked row of airplanes. He walked away, > but my free airplane was no longer available. Don't > get me wrong, I'm all about doing fun things with the > appropriate airplane and conditions, I like to watch a J-3 > stop in a matter of feet after landing on a day with a > little wind, and for 20 years I was paid to fly anything BUT > straight and level so I'll do anything in a airplane right > up to the "stupid is as stupid does" point. > Just my opinion of course, but I was a little amazed > at the combination of ideas and emotions in this thread. > > Have a Happy Thanksgiving! > Marcus > > do not archive > > > On Nov 21, 2011, at 9:58 AM, rv10flyer wrote: > > > It does not matter what position your flaps and elevator > are in if your plane is not securely tied to Earth like that > one appears. > > I will strap my flight controls to prevent damage to them, > not to keep the plane from flying on its own. I understand > that control position will affect the pull on the > ropes/anchors. > > If I am aware of 30+ kt winds forecasted, I hope I can > hangar it or fly it out in time. If not then I will try to > have full fuel, max baggage in front floor area and > flaps up. Check wx often when our babies are parked > outside. > > -------- > Wayne Gillispie, A&P 5/93, PPC 10/08 > Bldr# 40983SB Final assembly, aw cert, transition training > with David Maib. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358622#358622 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lists This Month -- > Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) > Raiser. Click on > out more about > Gifts provided > www.aeroelectric.com > www.buildersbooks.com > www.homebuilthelp.com > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:31 AM PST US From: Robin Marks Subject: RE: RV10-List: Why you don't just strap the stick back... Rick, Maybe your uneventful flying the last third of a century is a partial testa ment to his training method. At this point I would not belabor his qualific ations. Techniques change, we don't do things the same way we once did in a number of areas, why should flight instruction be any different. I much pr efer an instructor that makes sure you can "fly the plane" before he signs you off vs. an uninvolved instructor that does the bare minimum. I have a f riend that received his certification after being trained by 3 different in structors over the course of ~125 hours of dual! He didn't even have basic Comm techniques and was what I considered to be an unsafe pilot because the re seemed to be no method to his training even after all those hours. I ins isted we fly together for probably another 15 hours just to force him into the use systems that added consistency to his flying technique. It was hard to break him of those bad habits. Ultimately finances forced him out of fl ying which is likely a good thing for all concerned. I would probably prefer your cowboy over most of the instructors currently training on my field right now. Slightly off topic... I was selling a beautiful Turbo Lance II with a near zero time engine & turbo, club seating for 6 etc... A successful young busi ness man in my town wanted to buy it. He was a 200 hour pilot talking about taking his family and a friends family places. While it was an easy sale I found another buyer with lots of experience in make & model. The original buyer was pissed but I did not want to be the guy that sold this nice young family an aircraft that wiped out two local families. It was so obvious to me that he could get over his head in short order and there would be anoth er local tragedy. Please note I am not "that guy" that has to sell his RV e ngine separate from the airframe to avoid personal liability. This situatio n just reeked of calamity. I am still happy with my decision even if it lef t some hard feelings. Robin Do Not Archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Lark Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 6:56 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Why you don't just strap the stick back... Tim, you are probably right, the hovering was not a huge risk. None the le ss, I have never attempted it myself. Thinking back, that same instructor used to have me practise precautionary approaches into farmer's field's and we would let the main wheels touch down, and bouncy a bit before we'd lift off again. I guess in a way it was good experience for me. Never have ha d to actually need that experience though. I wonder if that instructor was a bit of a "cowboy"? Rck Do not archive --- On Sun, 11/20/11, Tim Olson > wro te: From: Tim Olson > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Why you don't just strap the stick back... tronics.com> Received: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 5:36 AM It's from Russia. I originally found it from Flying Magazine. Regarding the "stunt" with the instructor....I don't really think it's a hu ge risky endeavor. After all, your ground speed is minimal, so really othe r than gusts it shouldn't be a big danger. I've landed in 30+kt steady win ds and it is fine if it's not too much of a crosswind or gusty...just feels slow. Now that said, I think the dangerous part would be the taxi back to the han gar....so I don't think I'll ever hover the RV10....I'd rather not fly in w inds with 50+ kts on the ground. If I could take off and land in 20kts and hover at some other airport at 20ft @ 50kts, sure, I'd love to give that a go. It's just a river of moving air, and airplanes only know airspeed.... .same as flying with 70kt tailwinds doesn't make the airplane different. I 've had some great trip times with high tailwinds. (and flew the rv10 like a cessna with 50+ kt headwinds. Tim On Nov 19, 2011, at 10:44 PM, Linn Walters > wrot e: Take another look at that video. Any large wind would just roll the plane back, not make it fly. I think this video is in the same class as the 'mis sing wing' video .... both are model airplanes. Doesn't look like an N# on the fuselage side either. Linn On 11/19/2011 11:26 PM, Rick Lark wrote: Phil, I remember the flight instructor I did most of my primary training wi th (some 34 years ago) was able to hover a C-150. In a very strong steady wind, he would use just the right amount of throttle, and could keep the ai rcraft off the ground about 2-3 feet. Can't say I have ever tried it mysel f, nor do I think I could. I can't imagine what an insurance company today would have to say about a stunt like that. Rick #40956 Southampton, Ont --- On Fri, 11/18/11, Phillip Perry <philperry9@gmail.com> wrote: From: Phillip Perry <philperry9@gmail.com> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Why you don't just strap the stick back... =rv10-list@matronics.com> Received: Friday, November 18, 2011, 12:36 AM Agreed. I always thought that was a dumb idea. I used to get in the sim and set the wind speed dead on the nose at a stead y couple of knots above stalling speed. Back on the stick and you're up. Back further on the stick and you're up and going backwards. Then forward on the stick and you're decending and picking up enough speed to creep forward to your original takeoff point. Fun exercise in the sim. I don't think it would be nearly as much fun with the turbulence and unpredictable winds in real life. Phil On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Tim Olson > wrote: .mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Tim@myrv10.com>> After Sun-N-Fun, I read some things about proper methods of tying down that made some real sense. Later, I also wrote some things too, to pass along the word. One disturbing thing I see at OSH and other places when I see RV's tied down, is that many builders simply strap their stick back with the seatbelt to secure the stick, locking the ailerons and elevators. Here's a video that shows exactly why that's a dumb idea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-wjtP90d_g If the above link doesn't work, go to youtube and search for "Accidental VTOL Takeoff" posted by "MessedUpShet". On my site, I show my rudder gust lock, with a strap that holds the stick in the neutral position (both axis) when I use the seat belt to pull the stick back. That should help prevent such a thing to some degree. Another thing that can cause you problems is having the flaps left down. If you have problems keeping people from stepping on your flaps, then great, put them down when boarding and disembarking the plane. But, once you're ready to leave the plane, put them up, because in a wind storm, the flaps will work as designed... They'll create extra drag, to allow the wind to push your plane harder against it's tiedowns, and by trapping the air under the wing it can add more lift. Just some common sense things to pass along regarding tying down...but the video was a real eye opener for me. -- Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD om" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution le, List Admin. arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://forums.matronics.com le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com /" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com ofollow target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========= http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com >www.buildersbooks.com "http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n ========= ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?RV10-List ========= ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ========= http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n ========= ollow target=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com /" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com ofollow target=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution rsbooks.com> m> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:36:39 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: RV10-List: Baggage area width @ door? Does anyone know the baggage width at the baggage door area? I know I've measured this in the past to buy luggage that fits, but I should have documented it somewhere for future use. I'm trying to find out if a foldable electric scooter will fit. Tim do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:06:32 PM PST US From: "Geoff Combs" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Baggage area width @ door? Tim baggage door opening is 20.25" long by 18.5" high Geoff Geoff Combs President 614-834-5227p 614-834-5230f www.aerosportmodeling.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 3:34 PM Subject: RV10-List: Baggage area width @ door? Does anyone know the baggage width at the baggage door area? I know I've measured this in the past to buy luggage that fits, but I should have documented it somewhere for future use. I'm trying to find out if a foldable electric scooter will fit. Tim do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:16:04 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Baggage area width @ door? From: Jay Rowe Tim: Just happened to be at the hanger. 38 3/4. at forward door edge and 34 1/2 at aft edge. (with flightline interior coverings). Jay Rowe 40301 Sent from my iPhone On Nov 21, 2011, at 12:33 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > Does anyone know the baggage width at the baggage door > area? I know I've measured this in the past to buy > luggage that fits, but I should have documented > it somewhere for future use. > > I'm trying to find out if a foldable electric scooter > will fit. > Tim > do not archive > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:43 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Baggage area width @ door? From: "johngoodman" Don't forget that "corner" that gets in the way.... -------- #40572 Phase One complete and flying. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=358753#358753 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:22:46 PM PST US From: Jeff Carpenter Subject: Re: RV10-List: Baggage area width @ door? 20" ... you have a 12" x 20" rectangle before it starts to angle down narrower at the bottom Jeff Carpenter On Nov 21, 2011, at 12:33 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > Does anyone know the baggage width at the baggage door > area? I know I've measured this in the past to buy > luggage that fits, but I should have documented > it somewhere for future use. > > I'm trying to find out if a foldable electric scooter > will fit. > Tim > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:59 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Baggage area width @ door? Thanks Geoff, I'll add that to the page too. I needed the baggage depth, but I really probably should have asked for the opening size too. Thanks for sending it! Tim On 11/21/2011 3:02 PM, Geoff Combs wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Geoff Combs" > > Tim > baggage door opening is 20.25" long by 18.5" high > > Geoff > > > Geoff Combs > President > > 614-834-5227p > 614-834-5230f > www.aerosportmodeling.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 3:34 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Baggage area width @ door? > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > Does anyone know the baggage width at the baggage door area? I know I've > measured this in the past to buy luggage that fits, but I should have > documented it somewhere for future use. > > I'm trying to find out if a foldable electric scooter will fit. > Tim > do not archive > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.