Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:39 AM - FAA Chart Data (Tim Olson)
2. 09:36 AM - Re: ipad Accessory (Eagerlee)
3. 09:44 AM - Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner (Jae Chang)
4. 10:14 AM - Re: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner (Rene Felker)
5. 10:26 AM - Re: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner (Rob Kochman)
6. 11:23 AM - Re: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner (Tim Olson)
7. 11:54 AM - Re: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner (Geoff Combs)
8. 11:56 AM - Re: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner (Bill Watson)
9. 12:16 PM - Re: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner (Jae Chang)
10. 12:44 PM - Re: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner (Bill Watson)
11. 01:19 PM - Re: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner (Rob Kermanj)
12. 02:28 PM - Re: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner (Bob Turner)
Message 1
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This is old new for those that read AvWeb today, but since I
haven't heard anyone mention what happened at the Dec. 13
meeting, I thought I'd post the latest here. Sounds
eggspensive.
Tim
------------------------------------------------------
FAA AeroNav Meeting: Radically Higher Prices for Digital Charting
Proposed (Updated)
The FAA's AeroNav charting division told vendors this week that it
proposes to charge end users of digital charting producers about $150 a
year to close a $5 million shortfall in its budget due to declining
paper chart sales. The new fee, if adopted, would presumably more than
double the cost of some popular iPad and Droid applications such as
ForeFlight and WingX. Plus, vendors selling through Apple's application
channels would face additional charges. "To me, it's pretty clear that
these prices are a non-starter. I know pilots aren't going to pay $150
for these products without screaming about it," one vendor told us.
And because AeroNav's incremental pricing favors large-volume vendors
over smaller ones, the pricing change may effectively kill smaller
application writers and/or free sites that offer FAA charting products
as a convenience for users. That might include DUATs contractors, which
offer free charts on the two sites.
Moreover, the FAA told about 70 vendors that as paper sales continue to
decline, the FAA charges for digital charting products are likely to
increase in order to cover fixed overhead costs. The agency also assured
the vendors that it would not be developing any apps or other products
to compete with them.
Tuesday's meeting, which was closed to the public and press, had been
billed as an information gathering session so the AeroNav group could
reach pricing that worked for everyone. Based on conversations with
several vendors, we would say reaction to the FAA's proposals were mixed
at best. "The FAA did a remarkably good job in soliciting opinion," one
vendor told us, "I'm actually fairly hopeful." Mark Spenser of
Avilution, a newer aviation app for Android, says he's not sure he'll
stay in the business if the FAA's proposed charges are adopted. "It's
too early to tell," he said. The FAA also realizes there will have to be
some other structure for websites that display charts, like FltPlan.com
or RunwayFinder. Dave Parsons of RunwayFinder told us, "I won't be able
to do it for even a dollar a user [per year]."
The assembled vendors were told that the FAA will announce a detailed
proposal by mid-January and the new charges will go into effect in
April, 2012. But one of the participants we spoke to on Wednesday said
that timeline is "totally unrealistic." He expressed further skepticism
that the FAA made its case the its economics justify such steep price
increases. Several vendors we spoke to told us there wasn't much give
and take and that AeroNav presented their price structure in a way that
suggested little flexibility. Michael Wolf, president of Sporty's, told
us Wednesday that he remained unconvinced that AeroNav had made a
legitimate effort to close its budget shortfall by cutting its expenses.
As for the new prices, vendors questioned how the agency arrived at its
numbers. The FAA seems to have grossly underestimated the number of
potential users, vendors told us. They told the assembled vendors that
the $150/year number was based on their estimated number of users
divided into the $5 million shortfall. But that's only about 33,000
users. Vendors tell us the real number is more than 100,000. That may be
good news for driving down the final price for subscriptions eventually,
but for the short term, it means higher costs for vendors. It's also
true that bigger companies will have the right to resell charts to
start-ups, who might want only single-updates or charts for a specific
area of the country to trim costs. However there might be an inherent
conflict of interest in doing so.
Bigger companies also will have an edge as the proposed pricing is
regressive: For example, a vendor with up to 100 customers would pay
$250 per customer, while one with up to 1,500 might pay $120. There was
also a flat-fee proposal where zero to 100 customers would be
$25,000/year, 100 to 250 would be $50,000/year and so on. It's unclear
which of those options might go into effect, but AeroNav told the
vendors the prices proposed are in a general range.
When asked if AeroNav could make up the $5 million by reducing its
expenses, FAA officials said no, although budget relief from Congress
might be an option. FAA officials deflected several specific questions
about AeroNav's budgeting and costs, which Sporty's Wolf told us he
thinks they will need to do.
In addressing the group, Fred Anderson, AeroNav's director of products,
told the vendors that the FAA has always charged user fees for charting
products, dating to the 1920s, when the government was authorized by
Congress to collect fees limited to paper and printing. The current law
allows AeroNav to charge for printing and distribution, but also for
management of databases used for chart preparation. It cannot charge for
the acquisition or distribution of flight data required to make charts.
Heretofore, AeroNav has charged a nominal fee for digital chart data it
sold on DVDs. It has also allowed all comers to download the digital
data at no charge, an arrangement that made attractive economics for
some application writers. Vendor costs for the DVD have been on the
order of $200 a year, but with no end user limitations, they amortize
this over hundreds or thousands of customers.
AeroNav also proposed that vendors will be required to become chart
sales agents and will be subject to audit by AeroNav to confirm they're
charging customers correctly, which will cost vendors -- and customers
-- yet more money. Vendors told us the FAA hopes to finalize its
pricing, contractual agreement and other issues brought up in today's
meeting by early January. We'll gauge pilot reaction after the numbers
are finalized.
On Tuesday, the FAA did not return our request for comment by our
deadline, but spokesman Laura Brown said Wednesday the agency would
respond to detailed queries for follow-up stories later this week.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: ipad Accessory |
it's keyboard scratchpad on Foreflight for my notes. Flight plan and
clearances are copy/paste into the scratchpad. Squack codes, altitudes,
frequencies, ATC identities are all entered with the iPad touch
keyboard. I carry the iPad on my conventional kneeboard which has a
paper/pencil supply but as yet not needed.
PH
Message 3
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| Subject: | Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner |
Sorry for hijacking this thread, but it reminded me of an issue. Now
that I am out of phase one, it has been great letting others finally get
some time in my plane (a plane that i built in my own garage! :D).
Feedback has been great except everyone seems to dislike the FPS system
from Vans/Showplanes, which I think is common in a lot of builds.
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?browse=airframe&product=fps
They dont like how the flaps retract straight to the reflex position
during a go-around or touch and goes. They would prefer an easier way to
incrementally or selectively choose half-flaps or zero degree flaps
instead of going straight to reflex.
At this point, if you want to select half flaps or zero, you sort of
have to baby sit the flaps switch while watching its position, which
isn't ideal in a go-around situation.
I was curious what your methods are for flaps in go-arounds or touch-n-goes.
Jae
Message 4
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| Subject: | Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner |
Not to make it simpler than it really is....I just put the switch up and fly
the plane. I don't see that much difference in the climb performance....at
least not enough to warrant trying to get the flaps to 0....
I like the FPS, think it works great and have no plans to change it in the
future. But with that said, if something else came along that would reduce
a couple of failure points....I might think about it.
Rene' Felker
N423CF
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jae Chang
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 10:40 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner
Sorry for hijacking this thread, but it reminded me of an issue. Now
that I am out of phase one, it has been great letting others finally get
some time in my plane (a plane that i built in my own garage! :D).
Feedback has been great except everyone seems to dislike the FPS system
from Vans/Showplanes, which I think is common in a lot of builds.
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?browse=airframe&product=fps
They dont like how the flaps retract straight to the reflex position
during a go-around or touch and goes. They would prefer an easier way to
incrementally or selectively choose half-flaps or zero degree flaps
instead of going straight to reflex.
At this point, if you want to select half flaps or zero, you sort of
have to baby sit the flaps switch while watching its position, which
isn't ideal in a go-around situation.
I was curious what your methods are for flaps in go-arounds or touch-n-goes.
Jae
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner |
I just put the flaps all the way up and forget about it. The motor is slow
enough and the airplane powerful enough that it really doesn't matter.
A bigger issue for me on T&Gs is moving the elevator trim, when I'm at a
forward CG. The trim motor is painfully slow, and combined with the safety
trim (which only gives you a couple seconds of trim at a time), it takes a
long time to get retrimmed. I wouldn't want the trim motor any faster,
though, for cruise trim. Maybe I'll finally set up that dual-speed thing.
-Rob
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:39 AM, Jae Chang <jc-matronics_rv10@jline.com>wrote:
>
> Sorry for hijacking this thread, but it reminded me of an issue. Now that
> I am out of phase one, it has been great letting others finally get some
> time in my plane (a plane that i built in my own garage! :D). Feedback has
> been great except everyone seems to dislike the FPS system from
> Vans/Showplanes, which I think is common in a lot of builds.
>
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/**cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?browse=**
> airframe&product=fps<http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?browse=airframe&product=fps>
>
> They dont like how the flaps retract straight to the reflex position
> during a go-around or touch and goes. They would prefer an easier way to
> incrementally or selectively choose half-flaps or zero degree flaps instead
> of going straight to reflex.
>
> At this point, if you want to select half flaps or zero, you sort of have
> to baby sit the flaps switch while watching its position, which isn't ideal
> in a go-around situation.
>
> I was curious what your methods are for flaps in go-arounds or
> touch-n-goes.
>
> Jae
>
>
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner |
Same here...I just flip it up and hit the power. The RV-10 has
so much power that even with full flaps you'll get off the ground
and then you'll be climbing out in no time. With dual speed
trim, the flap motor is slow enough and the trim fast enough
when down low and slow that the trim isn't a huge issue either
as long as you're paying attention and trimming. For people who
are behind the airplane a lot, transitioning from slower
aircraft, it make take some adjustment...but for someone who
flies the RV-10 as their plane, it's just 2nd nature.
I wouldn't want a system that stops on the way up...I want it
all the way to reflex when I lift them.
Tim
On 12/15/2011 12:10 PM, Rene Felker wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Rene Felker"<rene@felker.com>
>
> Not to make it simpler than it really is....I just put the switch up and fly
> the plane. I don't see that much difference in the climb performance....at
> least not enough to warrant trying to get the flaps to 0....
>
> I like the FPS, think it works great and have no plans to change it in the
> future. But with that said, if something else came along that would reduce
> a couple of failure points....I might think about it.
>
> Rene' Felker
> N423CF
> 801-721-6080
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner |
I second Tim and Rene's statements. I really like that setup. Works great
Geoff Combs
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner
Same here...I just flip it up and hit the power. The RV-10 has so much
power that even with full flaps you'll get off the ground and then you'll be
climbing out in no time. With dual speed trim, the flap motor is slow
enough and the trim fast enough when down low and slow that the trim isn't a
huge issue either as long as you're paying attention and trimming. For
people who are behind the airplane a lot, transitioning from slower
aircraft, it make take some adjustment...but for someone who flies the RV-10
as their plane, it's just 2nd nature.
I wouldn't want a system that stops on the way up...I want it all the way to
reflex when I lift them.
Tim
On 12/15/2011 12:10 PM, Rene Felker wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Rene Felker"<rene@felker.com>
>
> Not to make it simpler than it really is....I just put the switch up
> and fly the plane. I don't see that much difference in the climb
> performance....at least not enough to warrant trying to get the flaps to
0....
>
> I like the FPS, think it works great and have no plans to change it in
> the future. But with that said, if something else came along that
> would reduce a couple of failure points....I might think about it.
>
> Rene' Felker
> N423CF
> 801-721-6080
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner |
I like it, or at least don't feel any need for change. Apply power,
raise flaps, say 'bye.
The only time I use 0 and the first notch of flaps is to slow it down
for landing. I have been using full flaps for all landings.
The only time FPS is inconvenient is before takeoff. I land with full
flaps and keep them down for exit and entry. Before takeoff, I have to
either let them come all the way up, then bring them down, or time it on
the way down.
I do have the 2 speed trim installed. I assume it has been working and
have had no reason to change anything. Will have to pay attention and
see if I can detect it's operation.
Bill "loves flying behind the big fan" Watson
On 12/15/2011 12:39 PM, Jae Chang wrote:
>
> Sorry for hijacking this thread, but it reminded me of an issue. Now
> that I am out of phase one, it has been great letting others finally
> get some time in my plane (a plane that i built in my own garage! :D).
> Feedback has been great except everyone seems to dislike the FPS
> system from Vans/Showplanes, which I think is common in a lot of builds.
>
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?browse=airframe&product=fps
>
>
> They dont like how the flaps retract straight to the reflex position
> during a go-around or touch and goes. They would prefer an easier way
> to incrementally or selectively choose half-flaps or zero degree flaps
> instead of going straight to reflex.
>
> At this point, if you want to select half flaps or zero, you sort of
> have to baby sit the flaps switch while watching its position, which
> isn't ideal in a go-around situation.
>
> I was curious what your methods are for flaps in go-arounds or
> touch-n-goes.
>
> Jae
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner |
Great, thanks for the feedback. I will practice more by just hitting the
flaps up switch then.
On a related note, I have been using 0 degree flaps for most of my
takeoffs for shorter ground rolls, but i may amend my checklist to use
reflex for flaps on takeoff as well then. It would certainly simplify
the checklist further.
Then for short-field takeoffs, i can use the 0 degree position. Has
anyone tried short-field takeoffs with half flaps?
Jae
--
#40533 RV-10
First flight 10/19/2011
Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner |
In my case, I wasn't completely forthcoming...
I do use half flaps for all takeoffs. Because home base is a rough
field, I use half for takeoff and full for landings but find the same
positions work well for all surfaces and conditions so far. After
takeoff, I go directly to reflex for climb and cruise.
So, the only time FPS is 'inconvenient' is between loading and takeoff.
I always have the flaps down for loading so I have to raise them to half
flaps before takeoff. Just part of my standard checklist procedure now.
Once in flight, I bring them down in increments to slow for the pattern
and landing but if a go-around is required, it's just up and go.
FPS could be a real downer if I were doing T&Gs but I just don't do them.
I haven't quite figured out how I will use flaps on real world
approaches. On my Maule, I'd select reflex (-10deg) to come down the
glide slope. Even with a 200' break-out, it was easy to slow to landing
speed, drop the flaps and hit the mark. Not sure that is the way to go
on the '10 but long 90 knot approaches just aren't welcome when you are
mixing it up with jet traffic.
On 12/15/2011 3:08 PM, Jae Chang wrote:
> Great, thanks for the feedback. I will practice more by just hitting
> the flaps up switch then.
>
> On a related note, I have been using 0 degree flaps for most of my
> takeoffs for shorter ground rolls, but i may amend my checklist to use
> reflex for flaps on takeoff as well then. It would certainly simplify
> the checklist further.
>
> Then for short-field takeoffs, i can use the 0 degree position. Has
> anyone tried short-field takeoffs with half flaps?
>
> Jae
> **
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner |
With so much power, I have never worried about retracing the flaps all the way
on go around. Perhaps in high altitude and hot days it would make a difference.
Do not archive.
Rob Kermanj
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 15, 2011, at 12:39 PM, Jae Chang <jc-matronics_rv10@jline.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry for hijacking this thread, but it reminded me of an issue. Now that I am
out of phase one, it has been great letting others finally get some time in
my plane (a plane that i built in my own garage! :D). Feedback has been great
except everyone seems to dislike the FPS system from Vans/Showplanes, which I
think is common in a lot of builds.
>
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?browse=airframe&product=fps
>
> They dont like how the flaps retract straight to the reflex position during a
go-around or touch and goes. They would prefer an easier way to incrementally
or selectively choose half-flaps or zero degree flaps instead of going straight
to reflex.
>
> At this point, if you want to select half flaps or zero, you sort of have to
baby sit the flaps switch while watching its position, which isn't ideal in a
go-around situation.
>
> I was curious what your methods are for flaps in go-arounds or touch-n-goes.
>
> Jae
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Go-around Procedure Using RV-10 Flap Positioner |
Bill,
FWIW my procedure is load people flaps down. Ready to start engine, master on,
flaps up, set mixture and throttle for priming; wait a few seconds for the flaps
to come all the way up, then prime, start. etc. I don't like to taxi with flaps
down, to minimize damage from anything the prop may blow back onto the flaps.
At run-up, "set flaps" is on the check list.
Like you, I haven't quite developed a procedure for approaches. If I think I'm
going down to 200'AGL before going visual I fly about 95 KIAS or less (unless
the runway is really long) and one notch of flaps, and the jets just have to wait.
If it's under a mile visibility then I'll slow to 80 KIAS with 2 notches
of flaps and the jets really have to wait. If ceiling is 500 or more I'll do 120
KIAS and no flaps.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=360991#360991
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