---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/03/12: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:19 AM - Re: N541RV.....the grin continues (Robin Marks) 2. 03:38 PM - new BP reward program (DLM) 3. 04:12 PM - Re: new BP reward program (Robin Marks) 4. 04:20 PM - Proper nyloc nut torquing (Dan Charrois) 5. 04:28 PM - Re: new BP reward program (n801bh@netzero.com) 6. 04:43 PM - Re: Proper nyloc nut torquing (n801bh@netzero.com) 7. 04:51 PM - Re: Proper nyloc nut torquing (Rene Felker) 8. 05:02 PM - Re: new BP reward program (Pascal) 9. 05:31 PM - Re: new BP reward program (DLM) 10. 06:33 PM - Re: new BP reward program (Pascal) 11. 07:48 PM - Re: Helicoil kit for nose wheel - still in circulation? (bill.peyton) 12. 07:53 PM - Re: Midwest Paint Shops (bill.peyton) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:13 AM PST US From: Robin Marks Subject: Re: RV10-List: N541RV.....the grin continues In my regular commute Tuesday I had a good push of a tail wind producing a 203 knot ground speed on 13.2 gph. I was grinning too till my decent closer to the mountain ridges. What a great plane for traveling. Robin Sent from my iPad2. On Feb 2, 2012, at 9:47 PM, "Scott Schmidt" > wrote: Yup, the grin never goes away. It just gets better and better. It is an amazing plane. I wish more flew it before buying a Cessna or Cirrus. -Scott Sent from my iPhone On Feb 1, 2012, at 5:07 AM, "bob-tcw" <rnewman@ tcwtech.com> wrote: Robin, I was burning 15 gph with all egt < 1400F, so about 50-75 rich of peak, all cht <350F. bob do not archive From: Robin Marks Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 11:49 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: N541RV.....the grin continues Bob what's your fuel burn at 70% / 4500'? Good fun ain't it. Robin Sent from my iPad2. On Jan 31, 2012, at 7:59 PM, "Bill Watson" <m auledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote: Yep, know exactly what you are saying. One sweet ride Sent from my iPad On Jan 31, 2012, at 9:04 PM, "bob-tcw" <rnewman @tcwtech.com> wrote: For those already flying you know what I=92m about to say...,,,, for those building, holy cow, this is one going airplane! Today I left the comfort of the local airport practice area and began the e xploration of my Phase 1 area. I headed out on a 166 nm journey and in 1 hour I was back where I started!! Leveled out and cruising I saw 171 t o 173 knots TAS at 4500 ft and 70% power the whole way, rock steady. I was with full fuel, and with about 50 lbs of junk in the trunk. Bob Newman N541RV 8 hrs. having more fun than I can remember in a long time! do not archive >http://www.matron//forums.ma tronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com f="http://www.matronics.com/contri bution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?RV10-List">http ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/con tribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ========= ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List ========= cs.com ========= matronics.com/contribution ========= nics.com/Navigator?RV10-List m/contribution ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:52 PM PST US From: "DLM" Subject: RV10-List: new BP reward program They have secured first place in the "Baffle them with BS" contest. The old program was straight forward percentages of purchase; now they obfuscate the situation with cents per gallon. Plug in some numbers and see that they are limiting the fuel purchase rebate to fewer than 3% at today's prices whereas their old rate was 5%. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:12:08 PM PST US From: Robin Marks Subject: RE: RV10-List: new BP reward program Wait... now I am totally confused an oil company is trying to screw the cus tomer. How can that be? Robin Do Not Archive From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of DLM Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:33 PM Subject: RV10-List: new BP reward program They have secured first place in the "Baffle them with BS" contest. The old program was straight forward percentages of purchase; now they obfuscate t he situation with cents per gallon. Plug in some numbers and see that they are limiting the fuel purchase rebate to fewer than 3% at today's prices wh ereas their old rate was 5%. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:20:06 PM PST US From: Dan Charrois Subject: RV10-List: Proper nyloc nut torquing Hi there. When I first started building my RV10, I was introduced to "proper" torquing of nuts, and probably like most people, was surprised at how light typical torquing forces were. Most of my life, I'd been overtorquing nuts, and it's nice to finally know how to do it right. But I'm the sort of person who when I learn something want to learn it fully, and now I'm not sure I actually *have* been doing it right. Like probably most people, I've been following Van's guidelines in section 5V for torquing. I've found that this corresponds with AC43.13-1B, Table 7-1 (with a small deviation for AN10 bolts, but I haven't ran into anything that big yet), so it seems like a reliable guide. The only problem is that AC43.13-1B specifies those torque values are for oil-free cadmium-plated (but otherwise standard) fine threads.. not particularly for nylocs. And most of Van's nuts are nylocs. Proper torquing values take into account friction between the face of the nut and the surface, force required to lengthen the bolt (which is ultimately what a specified torque is trying to control), and dry thread friction. But nylocs have far more dry thread friction than standard nuts - that's what they're for, after all. Measuring the prevailing torque on AN3- and AN4-sized nuts (before the face of the nut contacts the surface), I've found a few foot pounds of torque required to just overcome the nyloc's friction. Installing into nutplates usually requires even more prevailing torque than nylocs do. >From what I've read, this sort of prevailing torque should really be added to the final installed torque. And that makes sense - a nyloc or nutplate's internal friction does nothing to add stress to a bolt under load - it only adds stress while the nut is actually being torqued (and of course, helps prevent the nut from loosening later on its own) I know this is pretty much nit-picking - thousands of RVs have been built and are flying fine, and I'd be willing to wager than 90% or more of the builders never worry about this and just used the torque values that Van's quoted. The torque values specify a range anyway. But I'm doing this as more an exercise of understanding the engineering involved. Am I correct in this assumption, and that theoretically the prevailing torque of nylocs and/or nutplates should be added to the torque values Van's provides? That would add a few extra foot pounds to the torque values aimed for, which might at least have a small significance for smaller bolts like the AN3s which aren't torqued very high in the first place. Dan -- Syzygy Research & Technology Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada Phone: 780-961-2213 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:28:55 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: RV10-List: new BP reward program I still get rattled when they use " Beyond Petroleum" as a spin to their name.... For gosh sakes just use the real name of " British Petreleum " . I am sure the did market studies and the majority of people reacted ne gatively to a foreign company....... Anyone else notice BP's new commercials trying to get visitors back to t he Gulf Coast after the spill ? They use subliminal messaging by posting their name on a solid color screen for the last 8 seconds of the commer cial..... Sheeples buy into that stuff..... YMMV. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "DLM" Subject: RV10-List: new BP reward program They have secured first place in the =93Baffle them with BS=94 contest. The old program was straight forward percentages of purchase; now they o bfuscate the situation with cents per gallon. Plug in some numbers and s ee that they are limiting the fuel purchase rebate to fewer than 3% at t oday=92s prices whereas their old rate was 5%. ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======= ____________________________________________________________ 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33 The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4f2c7ad84bc6974a965st04vuc ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:38 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Proper nyloc nut torquing http://www.mechanicsupport.com/Nylock_nut_torques.html do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Dan Charrois Subject: RV10-List: Proper nyloc nut torquing Hi there. When I first started building my RV10, I was introduced to "proper" torq uing of nuts, and probably like most people, was surprised at how light typical torquing forces were. Most of my life, I'd been overtorquing nu ts, and it's nice to finally know how to do it right. But I'm the sort of person who when I learn something want to learn it f ully, and now I'm not sure I actually *have* been doing it right. Like probably most people, I've been following Van's guidelines in section 5V for torquing. I've found that this corresponds with AC43.13-1B, Table 7-1 (with a small deviation for AN10 bolts, but I haven't ran into anyth ing that big yet), so it seems like a reliable guide. The only problem is that AC43.13-1B specifies those torque values are fo r oil-free cadmium-plated (but otherwise standard) fine threads.. not pa rticularly for nylocs. And most of Van's nuts are nylocs. Proper torquing values take into account friction between the face of th e nut and the surface, force required to lengthen the bolt (which is ult imately what a specified torque is trying to control), and dry thread fr iction. But nylocs have far more dry thread friction than standard nuts - that's what they're for, after all. Measuring the prevailing torque on AN3- and AN4-sized nuts (before the face of the nut contacts the surf ace), I've found a few foot pounds of torque required to just overcome t he nyloc's friction. Installing into nutplates usually requires even mo re prevailing torque than nylocs do. >From what I've read, this sort of prevailing torque should really be ad ded to the final installed torque. And that makes sense - a nyloc or nu tplate's internal friction does nothing to add stress to a bolt under lo ad - it only adds stress while the nut is actually being torqued (and of course, helps prevent the nut from loosening later on its own) I know this is pretty much nit-picking - thousands of RVs have been buil t and are flying fine, and I'd be willing to wager than 90% or more of t he builders never worry about this and just used the torque values that Van's quoted. The torque values specify a range anyway. But I'm doing this as more an exercise of understanding the engineering involved. Am I correct in this assumption, and that theoretically the prevailing torq ue of nylocs and/or nutplates should be added to the torque values Van's provides? That would add a few extra foot pounds to the torque values aimed for, which might at least have a small significance for smaller bo lts like the AN3s which aren't torqued very high in the first place. Dan -- Syzygy Research & Technology Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada Phone: 780-961-2213 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ____________________________________________________________ 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33 The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4f2c7df21429174b977st04vuc ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:54 PM PST US From: "Rene Felker" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Proper nyloc nut torquing I think you have it correct. But, I just set my wrench to the high side of the range and went for it. I could not figure out how to accurately measure the resistance..... Rene' Felker N423CF 801-721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Charrois Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 5:17 PM Subject: RV10-List: Proper nyloc nut torquing Hi there. When I first started building my RV10, I was introduced to "proper" torquing of nuts, and probably like most people, was surprised at how light typical torquing forces were. Most of my life, I'd been overtorquing nuts, and it's nice to finally know how to do it right. But I'm the sort of person who when I learn something want to learn it fully, and now I'm not sure I actually *have* been doing it right. Like probably most people, I've been following Van's guidelines in section 5V for torquing. I've found that this corresponds with AC43.13-1B, Table 7-1 (with a small deviation for AN10 bolts, but I haven't ran into anything that big yet), so it seems like a reliable guide. The only problem is that AC43.13-1B specifies those torque values are for oil-free cadmium-plated (but otherwise standard) fine threads.. not particularly for nylocs. And most of Van's nuts are nylocs. Proper torquing values take into account friction between the face of the nut and the surface, force required to lengthen the bolt (which is ultimately what a specified torque is trying to control), and dry thread friction. But nylocs have far more dry thread friction than standard nuts - that's what they're for, after all. Measuring the prevailing torque on AN3- and AN4-sized nuts (before the face of the nut contacts the surface), I've found a few foot pounds of torque required to just overcome the nyloc's friction. Installing into nutplates usually requires even more prevailing torque than nylocs do. >From what I've read, this sort of prevailing torque should really be added to the final installed torque. And that makes sense - a nyloc or nutplate's internal friction does nothing to add stress to a bolt under load - it only adds stress while the nut is actually being torqued (and of course, helps prevent the nut from loosening later on its own) I know this is pretty much nit-picking - thousands of RVs have been built and are flying fine, and I'd be willing to wager than 90% or more of the builders never worry about this and just used the torque values that Van's quoted. The torque values specify a range anyway. But I'm doing this as more an exercise of understanding the engineering involved. Am I correct in this assumption, and that theoretically the prevailing torque of nylocs and/or nutplates should be added to the torque values Van's provides? That would add a few extra foot pounds to the torque values aimed for, which might at least have a small significance for smaller bolts like the AN3s which aren't torqued very high in the first place. Dan -- Syzygy Research & Technology Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada Phone: 780-961-2213 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:17 PM PST US From: "Pascal" Subject: Re: RV10-List: new BP reward program Let=99s see I get 1-2% on my American Express towards gas, BP wont give you squat unless you buy Amoco or BP (although Arco, a BP company wont except the card) but 3% is well... 3%. I have not seen the fine print but it does say =9C5% on fuel purchases=9D so I am interested in the technicality that makes it less than 3%.. were did you get the 3% from? I have a application I was about to send off so this is great timing. From: DLM Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:33 PM Subject: RV10-List: new BP reward program They have secured first place in the =9CBaffle them with BS=9D contest. The old program was straight forward percentages of purchase; now they obfuscate the situation with cents per gallon. Plug in some numbers and see that they are limiting the fuel purchase rebate to fewer than 3% at today=99s prices whereas their old rate was 5%. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:31:57 PM PST US From: "DLM" Subject: RE: RV10-List: new BP reward program I have been getting 5% using a BP Visa card at BP FBOs; now they are changing to limit rebate to 15 cents per gallon; I have been getting 25 cents plus on $5 100LL for at least a year. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 5:58 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: new BP reward program Let's see I get 1-2% on my American Express towards gas, BP wont give you squat unless you buy Amoco or BP (although Arco, a BP company wont except the card) but 3% is well... 3%. I have not seen the fine print but it does say "5% on fuel purchases" so I am interested in the technicality that makes it less than 3%.. were did you get the 3% from? I have a application I was about to send off so this is great timing. From: DLM Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:33 PM Subject: RV10-List: new BP reward program They have secured first place in the "Baffle them with BS" contest. The old program was straight forward percentages of purchase; now they obfuscate the situation with cents per gallon. Plug in some numbers and see that they are limiting the fuel purchase rebate to fewer than 3% at today's prices whereas their old rate was 5%. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:37 PM PST US From: "Pascal" Subject: Re: RV10-List: new BP reward program They still advertise: With your BP Visa Card, you can: a.. Earn 5% rebates on all BP location purchases b.. Earn 2% rebates on all eligible travel and dining purchases c.. Earn 1% rebates on all other eligible purchases Nice marketing and poor follow-through! From: DLM Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 5:27 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: new BP reward program I have been getting 5% using a BP Visa card at BP FBOs; now they are changing to limit rebate to 15 cents per gallon; I have been getting 25 cents plus on $5 100LL for at least a year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 5:58 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: new BP reward program Let=99s see I get 1-2% on my American Express towards gas, BP wont give you squat unless you buy Amoco or BP (although Arco, a BP company wont except the card) but 3% is well... 3%. I have not seen the fine print but it does say =9C5% on fuel purchases=9D so I am interested in the technicality that makes it less than 3%.. were did you get the 3% from? I have a application I was about to send off so this is great timing. From: DLM Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:33 PM Subject: RV10-List: new BP reward program They have secured first place in the =9CBaffle them with BS=9D contest. The old program was straight forward percentages of purchase; now they obfuscate the situation with cents per gallon. Plug in some numbers and see that they are limiting the fuel purchase rebate to fewer than 3% at today=99s prices whereas their old rate was 5%. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://foru ms.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www .matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comht tp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:34 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Helicoil kit for nose wheel - still in circulation? From: "bill.peyton" Lew, I would like to make the mod to my front wheel and use your tools. I think I understand what you are doing, but need to see a dwg. Also, you mentioned you have a source the bolts and washers. Thanks Bill -------- Bill Peyton Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365587#365587 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:05 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Midwest Paint Shops From: "bill.peyton" There is a great paint shop in Quincy Il at UIN. I have seen his work and it is great. Price for RV-8 was 8K. -------- Bill Peyton Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365588#365588 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.