---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/28/12: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:19 AM - Re: AP procedure (Alan Mekler MD) 2. 02:34 AM - Re: AOA installation in wings (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 3. 05:19 AM - Re: AP procedure (rv10flyer) 4. 06:49 AM - Re: AP procedure (Bill Watson) 5. 07:12 AM - Re: AP procedure (DLM) 6. 08:11 AM - Antenna locations (Ed Kranz) 7. 09:04 AM - Re: Antenna locations (Ralph E. Capen) 8. 09:24 AM - Re: Antenna locations (Seano) 9. 09:28 AM - Re: Antenna locations (Seano) 10. 10:17 AM - Re: Antenna locations (Carl Froehlich) 11. 12:24 PM - Re: Antenna locations (Kelly McMullen) 12. 01:00 PM - Re: Antenna locations (Bob Condrey) 13. 01:44 PM - Re: Antenna locations (Seano) 14. 01:55 PM - Re: Antenna locations (Ed Kranz) 15. 02:11 PM - Re: Antenna locations (Seano) 16. 02:17 PM - Re: Antenna locations (Carl Froehlich) 17. 02:30 PM - Re: Antenna locations (Bob Turner) 18. 02:38 PM - Re: AP procedure (Bob Turner) 19. 03:10 PM - Re: Re: Antenna locations (Jesse Saint) 20. 04:43 PM - SFO Trip This Week (fdombroski) 21. 09:00 PM - Re: Re: Antenna locations (Bill Watson) 22. 09:35 PM - LED tail light strobe (David Leikam) 23. 09:58 PM - Re: LED tail light strobe (Sean S. Blair) 24. 11:38 PM - Re: LED tail light strobe (woxofswa) 25. 11:41 PM - Clear Wing Walk (was LED tail light strobe) (Robin Marks) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:33 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: AP procedure From: Alan Mekler MD I do the same. It takes less time then the adhrs . Alan Sent from my iPhone On Feb 27, 2012, at 9:03 PM, "DLM" wrote: > Shortly after start, I apply power to my TT VSGV. The words AP OFF show on the screen. A friend indicated that he did not apply power to the TT until a irborne; I suggested that was an unwise procedure because if inadvertently e ncountering IMC (dark night, low clouds or dark night and unlighted terrain) the AP can be used to maintain control of the aircraft. A touch of the roun d black knob will automatically synchronize the aircraft to the current head ing by leveling wings and maintaining pitch attitude i.e. rate of climb. The TT AP has its own solid state pitch and roll sensors and the straight and l evel sensors are set at power up, preferably on the ground. My TT is my thi rd way to keep the clean side up and dirty side down, after the Cheltons and the GRT Sport. > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:12 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: Re: RV10-List: AOA installation in wings Bill, I ran them through separate grommets in the nose ribs if I remember corre ctly. I did that with these and with some other things. Should be picture s in my Kitlog site if you want to have a look around. I'll see if i can f ind specifics and send them later. Michael On Feb 27, 2012, at 6:42 PM, "Billy & Tami Britton" > wrote: On the third bay in from the wingtip on the spar there's a hole in the web. I assume these are tooling holes. This will probably warrant a phone cal l to Vans, but, does anybody have any thoughts (other than "don't mess with the wing spar any more than you need to!!!") about enlarging that hole to 7/16 for a snap bushing? I'm looking for a route for the pressure lines on my AOA. Aside from ordering a longer tubing length from AFS and running t he tubing to the wingtip, then the full length of the wing through my condu it, I cannot see any easier way. I do already have my outboard leading edg es installed, so this will be fairly difficult anyway. My only other thought is to just run both tubes through the hole and then g ob proseal around them to keep them from rubbing. Anybody have any other general suggestions about the wing install part of t his??? Pictures??? Using the stock location suggested on the AFS site, doe s anybody know how this will affect--if any--the install of the Duckworks l eading edge landing lights in the same bay? Thanks again for any help, Bill ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:18 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: AP procedure From: "rv10flyer" Same for me. Toggle switch near ap. Startup all avionics with aux bat once plane is pulled out. By the time I hop in grt and xm is all ready to go. In case something goes wrong with me my wife knows how to hit the round knob too. She has been learning alot on the last 5 flights with the family. I would not build an RV without ap. In no time you are turning and then descending into a spiral dive. -------- Wayne Gillispie, A&P 05/93 PP 10/08 40983SB 12/1/2009-12/1/2011 N715WD 382nd Flying. TT= 31 hrs. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367429#367429 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:42 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: RV10-List: AP procedure I have the AP (and the GRTs) on a 2nd buss - not same as starter buss - so they come on with power up and complete their initialization by the time I've started the engine and thought about moving. Makes no sense to apply power after liftoff unless one has some unfounded fear about the AP 'taking over' inadvertently. Bill On 2/27/2012 9:03 PM, DLM wrote: > > Shortly after start, I apply power to my TT VSGV. The words AP OFF > show on the screen. A friend indicated that he did not apply power to > the TT until airborne; I suggested that was an unwise procedure > because if inadvertently encountering IMC (dark night, low clouds or > dark night and unlighted terrain) the AP can be used to maintain > control of the aircraft. A touch of the round black knob will > automatically synchronize the aircraft to the current heading by > leveling wings and maintaining pitch attitude i.e. rate of climb. The > TT AP has its own solid state pitch and roll sensors and the straight > and level sensors are set at power up, preferably on the ground. My > TT is my third way to keep the clean side up and dirty side down, > after the Cheltons and the GRT Sport. > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:18 AM PST US From: "DLM" Subject: RE: RV10-List: AP procedure Another thing I set was that the GRT is connected by its various power inputs to the primary bus and essential bus. The AP is on the primary bus only and the Cheltons are on the essential bus only. _____ From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:47 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: AP procedure I have the AP (and the GRTs) on a 2nd buss - not same as starter buss - so they come on with power up and complete their initialization by the time I've started the engine and thought about moving. Makes no sense to apply power after liftoff unless one has some unfounded fear about the AP 'taking over' inadvertently. Bill On 2/27/2012 9:03 PM, DLM wrote: Shortly after start, I apply power to my TT VSGV. The words AP OFF show on the screen. A friend indicated that he did not apply power to the TT until airborne; I suggested that was an unwise procedure because if inadvertently encountering IMC (dark night, low clouds or dark night and unlighted terrain) the AP can be used to maintain control of the aircraft. A touch of the round black knob will automatically synchronize the aircraft to the current heading by leveling wings and maintaining pitch attitude i.e. rate of climb. The TT AP has its own solid state pitch and roll sensors and the straight and level sensors are set at power up, preferably on the ground. My TT is my third way to keep the clean side up and dirty side down, after the Cheltons and the GRT Sport. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:27 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Antenna locations From: Ed Kranz I'm just getting ready to finish up the vertical stab, and I need to make a decision about antenna locations... specifically the Nav antenna(s). The options I've seen are: - Whiskers on top of the VS (on the rib below the rudder) - Whiskers below the VS - Wingtip antenna I'm leaning towards whiskers on top of the VS and a NAV2 in a wingtip, as I'm worried about dogs and kids finding the antennas with their eyes (also concerned about the COM antennas on the belly for the same reason, but that's something to worry about further down the line). My question is: is there a performance hit from mounting the whiskers on top of the VS? Do you get any shadowing from the wings and body of the plane? Also, which whiskers (with removable elements) are giving the best performance for your buck? Thanks! Ed Kranz 41347 edandcolleen.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:00 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Antenna locations Ed, For my 6A, I got a set of Comant whiskers on top of my VS - inside the VS top cap. I don't think they make that one any more. No reception issues that I've experienced - I'm doing my IFR training in it and having a blast! Ralph -----Original Message----- >From: Ed Kranz >Sent: Feb 28, 2012 11:10 AM >To: rv10-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV10-List: Antenna locations > >I'm just getting ready to finish up the vertical stab, and I need to make a >decision about antenna locations... specifically the Nav antenna(s). > >The options I've seen are: > > - Whiskers on top of the VS (on the rib below the rudder) > - Whiskers below the VS > - Wingtip antenna > >I'm leaning towards whiskers on top of the VS and a NAV2 in a wingtip, as >I'm worried about dogs and kids finding the antennas with their eyes (also >concerned about the COM antennas on the belly for the same reason, but >that's something to worry about further down the line). > >My question is: is there a performance hit from mounting the whiskers on >top of the VS? Do you get any shadowing from the wings and body of the >plane? Also, which whiskers (with removable elements) are giving the best >performance for your buck? > >Thanks! > >Ed Kranz >41347 >edandcolleen.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:24:11 AM PST US From: "Seano" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Antenna locations Mine is up top and out of the way. It would have been easier to mount it earlier in construction but it worked out great. I made a nutplated doubler to mount the CI-157P and used the 5/16 pneumatic airline to run the coax up the nose of the vertical ribs. Best pic of it I found. Apex is toward the nose. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Kranz To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:10 AM Subject: RV10-List: Antenna locations I'm just getting ready to finish up the vertical stab, and I need to make a decision about antenna locations... specifically the Nav antenna(s). The options I've seen are: a.. Whiskers on top of the VS (on the rib below the rudder) b.. Whiskers below the VS c.. Wingtip antenna I'm leaning towards whiskers on top of the VS and a NAV2 in a wingtip, as I'm worried about dogs and kids finding the antennas with their eyes (also concerned about the COM antennas on the belly for the same reason, but that's something to worry about further down the line). My question is: is there a performance hit from mounting the whiskers on top of the VS? Do you get any shadowing from the wings and body of the plane? Also, which whiskers (with removable elements) are giving the best performance for your buck? Thanks! Ed Kranz 41347 edandcolleen.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:28:38 AM PST US From: "Seano" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Antenna locations BTW, I have the bob archer in the wingtip for my nav two. A lot of discussion on the reception. My personal experience is roughly 20 miles. The cat whisker will pick up the signal twenty miles farther than the bob archer. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Kranz To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:10 AM Subject: RV10-List: Antenna locations I'm just getting ready to finish up the vertical stab, and I need to make a decision about antenna locations... specifically the Nav antenna(s). The options I've seen are: a.. Whiskers on top of the VS (on the rib below the rudder) b.. Whiskers below the VS c.. Wingtip antenna I'm leaning towards whiskers on top of the VS and a NAV2 in a wingtip, as I'm worried about dogs and kids finding the antennas with their eyes (also concerned about the COM antennas on the belly for the same reason, but that's something to worry about further down the line). My question is: is there a performance hit from mounting the whiskers on top of the VS? Do you get any shadowing from the wings and body of the plane? Also, which whiskers (with removable elements) are giving the best performance for your buck? Thanks! Ed Kranz 41347 edandcolleen.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:06 AM PST US From: Carl Froehlich Subject: Re: RV10-List: Antenna locations Ed, You are touching on an area close to "primers" as to strong opinions. Here is what I'm doing: - VOR antenna; home brew wingtip similar in design to the Bob Archer design, but dimensions changed to take advantage of the larger wingtip dimensions. I did this on my 8A and consistently get VOR reception at 40+ miles, and IL S/LOC reception way beyond useful range. - On the eyeball hazard I share your concerns. I have two bent whip antenna on the bottom of the10. First thing after it goes back in the hangar I put a hose (with the end capped) over each one. I don't want my dogs to jam th e antenna tips into their eyes - and I also found it a great safety step to p reserve my vision when cleaning the belly. - You mentioned "Nav 2". If you are striving for bang for the buck, perhaps you consider not having a second VOR receiver. I find the SL-30 in the 8A p rovides the "cross bearing to a second VOR" function well using the primary/ secondary VOR feature. If you really need a second VOR, the a single antenn a with a splitter works (for all practical purposes) as well as two antennas .. Carl On Feb 28, 2012, at 12:27 PM, "Seano" wrote: > BTW, I have the bob archer in the wingtip for my nav two. A lot of discus sion on the reception. My personal experience is roughly 20 miles. The cat whisker will pick up the signal twenty miles farther than the bob archer. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ed Kranz > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:10 AM > Subject: RV10-List: Antenna locations > > I'm just getting ready to finish up the vertical stab, and I need to make a decision about antenna locations... specifically the Nav antenna(s). > > The options I've seen are: > Whiskers on top of the VS (on the rib below the rudder) > Whiskers below the VS > Wingtip antenna > I'm leaning towards whiskers on top of the VS and a NAV2 in a wingtip, as I 'm worried about dogs and kids finding the antennas with their eyes (also co ncerned about the COM antennas on the belly for the same reason, but that's something to worry about further down the line). > > My question is: is there a performance hit from mounting the whiskers on t op of the VS? Do you get any shadowing from the wings and body of the plane? Also, which whiskers (with removable elements) are giving the best performa nce for your buck? > > Thanks! > > Ed Kranz > 41347 > edandcolleen.com > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?RV10-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:43 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Antenna locations I don't think finishing the vertical stab is the time to decide on that antenna. I just closed off the fiberglass tip with Clickbond #4 nutplates and #4 flush screws instead of rivets, so I can get in there if I ever decide I want something there. Yes, it adds about $20 to overall cost, but to me that is easier than having to drill out rivets if the need arises. I'd be interested in what changes were made to the Bob Archer design to improve the range. If 40+ mile range is possible, I'd much rather have antenna in wingtip. OTOH, on other planes I have gotten 100+ mile range at 10K cruising alt on H class VORs. On 2/28/2012 11:14 AM, Carl Froehlich wrote: > Ed, > > You are touching on an area close to "primers" as to strong opinions. > > Here is what I'm doing: > - VOR antenna; home brew wingtip similar in design to the Bob Archer > design, but dimensions changed to take advantage of the larger wingtip > dimensions. I did this on my 8A and consistently get VOR reception at > 40+ miles, and ILS/LOC reception way beyond useful range. > - On the eyeball hazard I share your concerns. I have two bent whip > antenna on the bottom of the10. First thing after it goes back in the > hangar I put a hose (with the end capped) over each one. I don't want > my dogs to jam the antenna tips into their eyes - and I also found it > a great safety step to preserve my vision when cleaning the belly. > - You mentioned "Nav 2". If you are striving for bang for the buck, > perhaps you consider not having a second VOR receiver. I find the > SL-30 in the 8A provides the "cross bearing to a second VOR" function > well using the primary/secondary VOR feature. If you really need a > second VOR, the a single antenna with a splitter works (for all > practical purposes) as well as two antennas. > > Carl > > > On Feb 28, 2012, at 12:27 PM, "Seano" > wrote: > >> BTW, I have the bob archer in the wingtip for my nav two. A lot of >> discussion on the reception. My personal experience is roughly 20 >> miles. The cat whisker will pick up the signal twenty miles farther >> than the bob archer. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Ed Kranz >> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com >> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:10 AM >> *Subject:* RV10-List: Antenna locations >> >> I'm just getting ready to finish up the vertical stab, and I need >> to make a decision about antenna locations... specifically the >> Nav antenna(s). >> >> The options I've seen are: >> >> * Whiskers on top of the VS (on the rib below the rudder) >> * Whiskers below the VS >> * Wingtip antenna >> >> I'm leaning towards whiskers on top of the VS and a NAV2 in a >> wingtip, as I'm worried about dogs and kids finding the antennas >> with their eyes (also concerned about the COM antennas on the >> belly for the same reason, but that's something to worry about >> further down the line). >> >> My question is: is there a performance hit from mounting the >> whiskers on top of the VS? Do you get any shadowing from the >> wings and body of the plane? Also, which whiskers (with removable >> elements) are giving the best performance for your buck? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Ed Kranz >> 41347 >> edandcolleen.com >> >> * >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c >> * >> >> * >> >> ================================== >> ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> ================================== >> cs.com >> ================================== >> matronics.com/contribution >> ================================== >> >> * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Antenna locations From: Bob Condrey Kelly, I don't think he changed the design, it's more that the performance is extremely sensitive to installation. Grounding using the wingtip attach nutplates (not a wire or strap), routing of other wiring along the edge, etc. In fact, I exchanged emails with Bob A. when I did my install in the first -10. I was concerned about the heat protective foil from the halogen landing light kit - he said to make the antenna as close as possible to the foil without touching it. I had one of his antennas in each wingtip (and a GS antenna along with it in one tip) and they worked great. I'd routinely see 50+ miles when I was actually checking distance. I've also heard of really poor performance but without seeing the install hard to say why. FWIW, he will readily admit that his wingtip comm antenna is a poor performer because of the signal polarization. Bob On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 3:22 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > I don't think finishing the vertical stab is the time to decide on that > antenna. I just closed off the fiberglass tip with Clickbond #4 nutplates > and #4 flush screws instead of rivets, so I can get in there if I ever > decide I want something there. Yes, it adds about $20 to overall cost, but > to me that is easier than having to drill out rivets if the need arises. > *I'd be interested in what changes were made to the Bob Archer design to > improve the range. If 40+ mile range is possible,* I'd much rather have > antenna in wingtip. OTOH, on other planes I have gotten 100+ mile range at > 10K cruising alt on H class VORs. > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:38 PM PST US From: "Seano" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Antenna locations My post made it look like I only got 20 miles of reception when I meant 20 miles is the difference between my Bob Archer and my cat whiskers. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Condrey To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 1:59 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Antenna locations Kelly, I don't think he changed the design, it's more that the performance is extremely sensitive to installation. Grounding using the wingtip attach nutplates (not a wire or strap), routing of other wiring along the edge, etc. In fact, I exchanged emails with Bob A. when I did my install in the first -10. I was concerned about the heat protective foil from the halogen landing light kit - he said to make the antenna as close as possible to the foil without touching it. I had one of his antennas in each wingtip (and a GS antenna along with it in one tip) and they worked great. I'd routinely see 50+ miles when I was actually checking distance. I've also heard of really poor performance but without seeing the install hard to say why. FWIW, he will readily admit that his wingtip comm antenna is a poor performer because of the signal polarization. Bob On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 3:22 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: I don't think finishing the vertical stab is the time to decide on that antenna. I just closed off the fiberglass tip with Clickbond #4 nutplates and #4 flush screws instead of rivets, so I can get in there if I ever decide I want something there. Yes, it adds about $20 to overall cost, but to me that is easier than having to drill out rivets if the need arises. I'd be interested in what changes were made to the Bob Archer design to improve the range. If 40+ mile range is possible, I'd much rather have antenna in wingtip. OTOH, on other planes I have gotten 100+ mile range at 10K cruising alt on H class VORs. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:20 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Antenna locations From: Ed Kranz Having flown with both, do you think you'd be comfortable with just the Bob Archer? Do you use it for GS as well as VOR/LOC? On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Seano wrote: > ** > My post made it look like I only got 20 miles of reception when I meant 20 > miles is the difference between my Bob Archer and my cat whiskers. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Bob Condrey > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 28, 2012 1:59 PM > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Antenna locations > > Kelly, > > I don't think he changed the design, it's more that the performance is > extremely sensitive to installation. Grounding using the wingtip attach > nutplates (not a wire or strap), routing of other wiring along the edge, > etc. In fact, I exchanged emails with Bob A. when I did my install in the > first -10. I was concerned about the heat protective foil from the halogen > landing light kit - he said to make the antenna as close as possible to the > foil without touching it. I had one of his antennas in each wingtip (and a > GS antenna along with it in one tip) and they worked great. I'd routinely > see 50+ miles when I was actually checking distance. I've also heard of > really poor performance but without seeing the install hard to say why. > FWIW, he will readily admit that his wingtip comm antenna is a poor > performer because of the signal polarization. > > Bob > > On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 3:22 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > >> >> I don't think finishing the vertical stab is the time to decide on that >> antenna. I just closed off the fiberglass tip with Clickbond #4 nutplates >> and #4 flush screws instead of rivets, so I can get in there if I ever >> decide I want something there. Yes, it adds about $20 to overall cost, but >> to me that is easier than having to drill out rivets if the need arises. >> *I'd be interested in what changes were made to the Bob Archer design to >> improve the range. If 40+ mile range is possible,* I'd much rather have >> antenna in wingtip. OTOH, on other planes I have gotten 100+ mile range at >> 10K cruising alt on H class VORs. >> >> * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > * > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:55 PM PST US From: "Seano" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Antenna locations Personally, no. I would only install the cat whiskers if I only had one NAV. I use the CI-157P for GS/VOR/LOC and it is ran to the 430W (nav 1) with a Diplexer since the 430w needs the NAV/LOC separate from the GS.(see link below). The Bob Archer is ran to my SL-30 nav portion. I thought the cat whiskers were easier to install and it gets a better signal. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/coupler507.php ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Kranz To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 2:54 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Antenna locations Having flown with both, do you think you'd be comfortable with just the Bob Archer? Do you use it for GS as well as VOR/LOC? On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Seano wrote: My post made it look like I only got 20 miles of reception when I meant 20 miles is the difference between my Bob Archer and my cat whiskers. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Condrey To: rv10-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 1:59 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Antenna locations Kelly, I don't think he changed the design, it's more that the performance is extremely sensitive to installation. Grounding using the wingtip attach nutplates (not a wire or strap), routing of other wiring along the edge, etc. In fact, I exchanged emails with Bob A. when I did my install in the first -10. I was concerned about the heat protective foil from the halogen landing light kit - he said to make the antenna as close as possible to the foil without touching it. I had one of his antennas in each wingtip (and a GS antenna along with it in one tip) and they worked great. I'd routinely see 50+ miles when I was actually checking distance. I've also heard of really poor performance but without seeing the install hard to say why. FWIW, he will readily admit that his wingtip comm antenna is a poor performer because of the signal polarization. Bob On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 3:22 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: I don't think finishing the vertical stab is the time to decide on that antenna. I just closed off the fiberglass tip with Clickbond #4 nutplates and #4 flush screws instead of rivets, so I can get in there if I ever decide I want something there. Yes, it adds about $20 to overall cost, but to me that is easier than having to drill out rivets if the need arises. I'd be interested in what changes were made to the Bob Archer design to improve the range. If 40+ mile range is possible, I'd much rather have antenna in wingtip. OTOH, on other planes I have gotten 100+ mile range at 10K cruising alt on H class VORs. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:40 PM PST US From: Carl Froehlich Subject: Re: RV10-List: Antenna locations I did modify the design slightly when I made the antenna (a few pieces of sc rap aluminum, some hardware and a piece of bakelite or fiberglass to make th e gama match). I did a hard mount (piece of .032 angle) to the outboard win g rib such that the antenna stays on the plane when you pull the wing tip of f. This solves the grounding issues. I also extended the piece that angles away from the rib such that the piece that runs parallel to the rib is tuck ed all the way into the outboard edge of the wingtip. This is a quarter wav elength antenna - which means the part that does most of the work (the high c urrent part) is close to the base. The end of the antenna (the high voltage part) provides the electrical length to resonate the antenna at the desired frequency. This is why bent whip antennas work as well as they do. The pa rt near the base is mostly vertical (communications are vertically polarized , VORs are horizontally polarized). I use the one antenna for both VOR and G S reception. As with all antennas, the performance is only as good as the tuning. I used an MFJ antenna analyzer to adjust the gama match and the overall length to r esonance. Most amateur radio operators have one of these analyzers and for a quick hop will most likely just make the antenna for you. Someplace I have an old AeroElectric book that provides details for the ante nna. Carl On Feb 28, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Bob Condrey wrote: > Kelly, > > I don't think he changed the design, it's more that the performance is ext remely sensitive to installation. Grounding using the wingtip attach nutpla tes (not a wire or strap), routing of other wiring along the edge, etc. In f act, I exchanged emails with Bob A. when I did my install in the first -10. I was concerned about the heat protective foil from the halogen landing lig ht kit - he said to make the antenna as close as possible to the foil withou t touching it. I had one of his antennas in each wingtip (and a GS antenna a long with it in one tip) and they worked great. I'd routinely see 50+ miles when I was actually checking distance. I've also heard of really poor perf ormance but without seeing the install hard to say why. FWIW, he will readi ly admit that his wingtip comm antenna is a poor performer because of the si gnal polarization. > > Bob > > On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 3:22 PM, Kelly McMullen wrot e: > > I don't think finishing the vertical stab is the time to decide on that an tenna. I just closed off the fiberglass tip with Clickbond #4 nutplates and # 4 flush screws instead of rivets, so I can get in there if I ever decide I w ant something there. Yes, it adds about $20 to overall cost, but to me that i s easier than having to drill out rivets if the need arises. > I'd be interested in what changes were made to the Bob Archer design to im prove the range. If 40+ mile range is possible, I'd much rather have antenna in wingtip. OTOH, on other planes I have gotten 100+ mile range at 10K crui sing alt on H class VORs. > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:17 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Antenna locations From: "Bob Turner" I have a single Archer in the right wing tip, running to an SL-30, as my only VOR. (As another poster mentioned, if you need to save money, I'd drop the #2 VOR - assuming you have a GPS backup). I easily pick up good signals at 50 miles @ 5000', except if the station is 90 degrees left of the aircraft (so the antenna has to look thru the fuselage). I can't say for certain what the range degradation is then. Picking up the localizer and GS signals has never been a problem. I ignored Bob A's instructions to some extent. I put the antenna fairly far back, away from the landing light, the aluminum foil, and the wiring for the lights (I ran these wires against the wing rib, and brought them out well in front of the antenna.). I also have a second antenna, an Archer clone slightly modified for slightly higher frequencies, in the left tip which I use for the #2 com (G420). I fastened the ground side of this antenna as high up as I could, under the top side plate nuts, and ran the element down to the bottom side of the tip, as steeply as I could, to get some vertical polarization. (most of the current flows in the first part of the radiating element). At 10 miles and pointed at the tower, 3000', tower reports the SL-30/belly whip as "5x5"; the G420 and wing tip antenna as "5x4", eg, slightly weaker. This agrees with my reception of the ATIS signal, the Archer/G420 is slightly weaker than the SL-30/external belly whip, although just barely noticeable. Again, I notice that at 15 miles or more I loose the ATIS on #2 if the left wing is pointed directly away from the tower. If I were doing it again, I would do it exactly the same as it is now. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367479#367479 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:01 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: AP procedure From: "Bob Turner" I have a Trio autopilot (which I like a lot btw), and I also boot it up prior to takeoff, not because I have to (it boots in flight just fine) but because it is my "third source" of attitude information, should there be a disagreement between the other two. The Trio shows a symbolic turn coordinator, even when disengaged, so it is easy to compare to the other 2 attitude sources. I also use the autotrim feature, manually, if the autopilot is not engaged. So I always boot it up prior to takeoff. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367480#367480 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Antenna locations From: Jesse Saint I have used the Bob Archer Nav antennas in many airplanes and have never been dissatisfied with their performance. In reality, how often do you even tune in a VOR when you have a GPS? I sometimes tune it in to teach someone how they work and how to use them. The range is not as good as the cat whiskers, but the antenna is cheaper and the plane is cleaner that way (and it's easier to install, IMHO). When flying an ILS, the signal is so strong when you are actually using it that the wingtip antenna is more than enough. I did install one Bob Archer Com antenna and I was very unhappy with the results. The Nav antenna is horizontally polarized so the RV-10 wingtip is ideal. The Com is supposed to be vertically polarized, so the RV-10 wingtip is very far from ideal. YMMV, but I will continue to use wingtip Nav antennas whenever I can. Also, even with dual Nav radios, you can use one antenna with diplexers, triplexers and splitters as necessary. do not archive Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. jesse@saintaviation.com C: 352-427-0285 F: 815-377-3694 On Feb 28, 2012, at 5:28 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > I have a single Archer in the right wing tip, running to an SL-30, as my only VOR. (As another poster mentioned, if you need to save money, I'd drop the #2 VOR - assuming you have a GPS backup). I easily pick up good signals at 50 miles @ 5000', except if the station is 90 degrees left of the aircraft (so the antenna has to look thru the fuselage). I can't say for certain what the range degradation is then. Picking up the localizer and GS signals has never been a problem. > I ignored Bob A's instructions to some extent. I put the antenna fairly far back, away from the landing light, the aluminum foil, and the wiring for the lights (I ran these wires against the wing rib, and brought them out well in front of the antenna.). > > I also have a second antenna, an Archer clone slightly modified for slightly higher frequencies, in the left tip which I use for the #2 com (G420). I fastened the ground side of this antenna as high up as I could, under the top side plate nuts, and ran the element down to the bottom side of the tip, as steeply as I could, to get some vertical polarization. (most of the current flows in the first part of the radiating element). At 10 miles and pointed at the tower, 3000', tower reports the SL-30/belly whip as "5x5"; the G420 and wing tip antenna as "5x4", eg, slightly weaker. This agrees with my reception of the ATIS signal, the Archer/G420 is slightly weaker than the SL-30/external belly whip, although just barely noticeable. Again, I notice that at 15 miles or more I loose the ATIS on #2 if the left wing is pointed directly away from the tower. > > If I were doing it again, I would do it exactly the same as it is now. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367479#367479 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:13 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: SFO Trip This Week From: "fdombroski" I am in the Bay area for a couple days, business trip. Does anyone need an excuse to go out and burn some 100LL Wednesday afternoon/evening? I'll buy fuel or food. Cheers, Frank -------- Frank Dombroski RV-10 N10FD Flying RV-8 N84FD Finished and sold :-{ SMQ Somerset Airport NJ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367487#367487 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:41 PM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Antenna locations Use a single Bob Archer Nav for 1 or both NAV radios - it works fine for approaches Don't use a Bob Archer Comm at all - it works okay but not well enough My limited experience exactly matches everything said below. On 2/28/2012 6:08 PM, Jesse Saint wrote: > --> RV10-List message posted by: Jesse Saint > > I have used the Bob Archer Nav antennas in many airplanes and have never been dissatisfied with their performance. In reality, how often do you even tune in a VOR when you have a GPS? I sometimes tune it in to teach someone how they work and how to use them. The range is not as good as the cat whiskers, but the antenna is cheaper and the plane is cleaner that way (and it's easier to install, IMHO). When flying an ILS, the signal is so strong when you are actually using it that the wingtip antenna is more than enough. > > I did install one Bob Archer Com antenna and I was very unhappy with the results. The Nav antenna is horizontally polarized so the RV-10 wingtip is ideal. The Com is supposed to be vertically polarized, so the RV-10 wingtip is very far from ideal. > > YMMV, but I will continue to use wingtip Nav antennas whenever I can. > > Also, even with dual Nav radios, you can use one antenna with diplexers, triplexers and splitters as necessary. > > do not archive > > Jesse Saint > Saint Aviation, Inc. > jesse@saintaviation.com > C: 352-427-0285 > F: 815-377-3694 > > On Feb 28, 2012, at 5:28 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" >> >> I have a single Archer in the right wing tip, running to an SL-30, as my only VOR. (As another poster mentioned, if you need to save money, I'd drop the #2 VOR - assuming you have a GPS backup). I easily pick up good signals at 50 miles @ 5000', except if the station is 90 degrees left of the aircraft (so the antenna has to look thru the fuselage). I can't say for certain what the range degradation is then. Picking up the localizer and GS signals has never been a problem. >> I ignored Bob A's instructions to some extent. I put the antenna fairly far back, away from the landing light, the aluminum foil, and the wiring for the lights (I ran these wires against the wing rib, and brought them out well in front of the antenna.). >> >> I also have a second antenna, an Archer clone slightly modified for slightly higher frequencies, in the left tip which I use for the #2 com (G420). I fastened the ground side of this antenna as high up as I could, under the top side plate nuts, and ran the element down to the bottom side of the tip, as steeply as I could, to get some vertical polarization. (most of the current flows in the first part of the radiating element). At 10 miles and pointed at the tower, 3000', tower reports the SL-30/belly whip as "5x5"; the G420 and wing tip antenna as "5x4", eg, slightly weaker. This agrees with my reception of the ATIS signal, the Archer/G420 is slightly weaker than the SL-30/external belly whip, although just barely noticeable. Again, I notice that at 15 miles or more I loose the ATIS on #2 if the left wing is pointed directly away from the tower. >> >> If I were doing it again, I would do it exactly the same as it is now. >> >> -------- >> Bob Turner >> RV-10 QB >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367479#367479 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:11 PM PST US From: David Leikam Subject: RV10-List: LED tail light strobe Does anyone know a good source to purchase an LED tail light strobe combo to replace my Whelen? I found a couple but they are out of stock. Also, does anyone have experience with clear wing walk tape? Does it discolor? Thx. Dave Leikam ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:48 PM PST US From: "Sean S. Blair" Subject: Re: RV10-List: LED tail light strobe Dave, I have the product made by AeroLeds.=C2- http://www.aeroleds.com/products /navigation-lights/experimental.aspx =C2- Nice product.=C2- No experience with clear wingwalk. Sean Blair COS RV7=C2- ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Leikam" Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:32:06 PM Subject: RV10-List: LED tail light strobe Does anyone know a good source to purchase an LED tail light strobe combo t o replace my Whelen? =C2-I found a couple but they are out of stock. Also, does anyone have experience with clear wing walk tape? =C2-Does it discolor? Thx. Dave Leikam =========== =========== MS - =========== e - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2--Matt Dralle, List Admin. =========== ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:27 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: LED tail light strobe From: "woxofswa" This is what I used. http://www.kestrobes.com/ -------- Myron Nelson Mesa, AZ Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse in mostly done, finishing kit in progress. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367502#367502 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:55 PM PST US From: Robin Marks Subject: RV10-List: Clear Wing Walk (was LED tail light strobe) Dave, Always interested in trying something new (for better or worse) I used a ma terial designed to add a non-skid texture to paint and painted my wing walk s clear over the white basecoat. Then color matched the outline. See below: [Description: http://painttheweb.com/painttheweb/rv-10/Images/Paint/Wing%20 Walk.jpg] I wanted to extend the length of the wing graphically which I think has wor ked to nice effect. That being said it's not ideal for most people, muddy f eet and all. If I were to do it again I would use the exact same non-skid m aterial but color match the step area my dark blue/grey. Oh, one more thing. When I chose to go this route I slightly undersized the area vs. the standard wing walk tape Van's sells in case I had to cover up my mistake but I am pleased with the performance of this surface. Sorry I don't recall the non-skid material. Robin -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of David Leikam Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:32 PM Subject: RV10-List: LED tail light strobe plnplt@gmail.com>> Does anyone know a good source to purchase an LED tail light strobe combo t o replace my Whelen? I found a couple but they are out of stock. Also, does anyone have experience with clear wing walk tape? Does it disco lor? Thx. Dave Leikam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.