Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:53 AM - Death in the Family (Richard Barnes)
2. 08:15 AM - Re: Death in the Family (Tim Olson)
3. 08:23 AM - Re: Death in the Family (Phillip Perry)
4. 08:31 AM - Re: Death in the Family (Pascal)
5. 08:46 AM - Re: Death in the Family (Kelly McMullen)
6. 08:49 AM - Re: Death in the Family (Tom Biggs)
7. 09:43 AM - Re: Death in the Family (Scott Schmidt)
8. 11:04 AM - Re: Death in the Family (Jae Chang)
9. 12:49 PM - Re: Urgent: EAA Members - Action! (Michael Sausen)
10. 01:11 PM - Re: Urgent: EAA Members - Action! (Tim Olson)
11. 01:15 PM - Re: Urgent: EAA Members - Action! (Phillip Perry)
12. 01:42 PM - Re: Urgent: EAA Members - Action! (Rene Felker)
13. 01:52 PM - Re: Death in the Family (Kelly McMullen)
14. 03:51 PM - VAF.net (Michael Sausen)
15. 03:56 PM - Re: Death in the Family (John J)
16. 04:56 PM - Re: Urgent: EAA Members - Action! (BELTEDAIR@aol.com)
17. 05:55 PM - new site? why different? (Pascal)
18. 07:04 PM - Re: new site? why different? (Phil Perry)
19. 07:32 PM - Re: new site? why different? (Roxanne and Mike Lefever)
20. 07:58 PM - Re: new site? why different? (Kyle Boatright)
21. 08:25 PM - Re: new site? why different? (Tim Olson)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Death in the Family |
Just a note to let you know that my dear friend and RV10 builder Mike Howe
passed away last week. For many of you, his web site was of great value.
He took several hundred photos of each step in the build process. His
passion was flying and to be able to build the RV10 brought him great joy.
We used your help on the forum to keep us out of too much trouble. For
those of you who may not have seen his web site:
http://www.etigerrr.com/Default.htm His obituary is below.
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/saltlaketribune/obituary-print.aspx?n=micha
el-dewitt-howe
<http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/saltlaketribune/obituary-print.aspx?n=mich
ael-dewitt-howe&pid=158527721> &pid=158527721
I know he appreciated all of your comments, especially the "primer wars".
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Death in the Family |
He certainly will be missed. Thanks for letting us know, Rick.
He was a great guy. We stopped by his hangar and saw him on
one of our trips out to Utah. He was one of those fellas with
an extreme love of aviation and someone who treated all of
us builders as good friends. It's too bad we lost him.
Tim
On 7/16/2012 9:52 AM, Richard Barnes wrote:
> Just a note to let you know that my dear friend and RV10 builder Mike
> Howe passed away last week. For many of you, his web site was of great
> value. He took several hundred photos of each step in the build
> process. His passion was flying and to be able to build the RV10
> brought him great joy. We used your help on the forum to keep us out
> of too much trouble. For those of you who may not have seen his web
> site: http://www.etigerrr.com/Default.htm His obituary is below.
>
> http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/saltlaketribune/obituary-print.aspx?n=michael-dewitt-howe&pid=158527721
>
> I know he appreciated all of your comments, especially the primer wars.
>
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Death in the Family |
I'm sorry to hear that Rick. I never met him personally but I always
enjoyed following along on the site.
He's going to be missed.
Phil
On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
>
> He certainly will be missed. Thanks for letting us know, Rick.
> He was a great guy. We stopped by his hangar and saw him on
> one of our trips out to Utah. He was one of those fellas with
> an extreme love of aviation and someone who treated all of
> us builders as good friends. It's too bad we lost him.
> Tim
>
>
> On 7/16/2012 9:52 AM, Richard Barnes wrote:
>
>> Just a note to let you know that my dear friend and RV10 builder Mike
>> Howe passed away last week. For many of you, his web site was of great
>> value. He took several hundred photos of each step in the build
>> process. His passion was flying and to be able to build the RV10
>> brought him great joy. We used your help on the forum to keep us out
>> of too much trouble. For those of you who may not have seen his web
>> site: http://www.etigerrr.com/**Default.htm<http://www.etigerrr.com/Defa
ult.htm> His obituary is below.
>>
>> http://www.legacy.com/**obituaries/saltlaketribune/**
>> obituary-print.aspx?n=michael-**dewitt-howe&pid=158527721<http://www
.legacy.com/obituaries/saltlaketribune/obituary-print.aspx?n=michael-dewi
tt-howe&pid=158527721>
>>
>> I know he appreciated all of your comments, especially the =93primer war
s=94.
>>
>>
=====**===================
===========**=
ronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
=====**===================
===========**=
=====**===================
===========**=
com/contribution>
=====**===================
===========**=
>
>
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Death in the Family |
I used the website along with Tim Olson=99s for hundreds of
references. Pictures and descriptions were excellent!
A real asset to the RV-10 builders! So Glad he saw it=99s
completion and won an award for the effort!
He=99ll be missed!
From: Richard Barnes
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 7:52 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Death in the Family
Just a note to let you know that my dear friend and RV10 builder Mike
Howe passed away last week. For many of you, his web site was of great
value. He took several hundred photos of each step in the build
process. His passion was flying and to be able to build the RV10
brought him great joy. We used your help on the forum to keep us out
of too much trouble. For those of you who may not have seen his web
site: http://www.etigerrr.com/Default.htm His obituary is below.
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/saltlaketribune/obituary-print.aspx?n=
michael-dewitt-howe&pid=158527721
I know he appreciated all of your comments, especially the
=9Cprimer wars=9D.
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Death in the Family |
My condolences. Mike was kind enough to show me around the plane you share
and the hangar a couple years ago. I have relied on his website constantly.
A real gentleman.
Kelly
On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 7:52 AM, Richard Barnes <
rickbarnes@highlanddental.com> wrote:
> Just a note to let you know that my dear friend and RV10 builder Mike How
e
> passed away last week. For many of you, his web site was of great value.
> He took several hundred photos of each step in the build process. His
> passion was flying and to be able to build the RV10 brought him great joy
.
> We used your help on the forum to keep us out of too much trouble. For
> those of you who may not have seen his web site:
> http://www.etigerrr.com/Default.htm His obituary is below.****
>
>
> http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/saltlaketribune/obituary-print.aspx?n=
michael-dewitt-howe&pid=158527721
> ****
>
> I know he appreciated all of your comments, especially the =93primer wars
=94.*
> ***
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Death in the Family |
Terrible news! I never met him personally but chatted several times via email.
Always very helpful and encouraging. You can almost build an RV10 with the instruction
on his site alone.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378407#378407
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Death in the Family |
Mike will be missed at the airport.=C2- He was the guy who was willing to
do anything to help you with a project or anything else.=C2- I will miss
him stopping by to say hi.=C2- =0A=0ARick, I am sure glad you helped Mik
e finish the RV-10. It is great he was able to fly it and enjoy it before p
assing. =0A=0A=C2-=0AScott Schmidt=0Ascottmschmidt@yahoo.com=0A=0A=0A=0A>
________________________________=0A> From: Richard Barnes <rickbarnes@highl
anddental.com>=0A>To: rv10-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Monday, July 16, 20
12 8:52 AM=0A>Subject: RV10-List: Death in the Family=0A> =0A>=0A>Just a no
te to let you know that my dear friend and RV10 builder Mike Howe passed aw
ay last week.=C2- For many of you, his web site was of great value.=C2-
He took several hundred photos of each step in the build process.=C2- Hi
s passion was flying and to be able to build the RV10 brought him great joy
.=C2- We used your help =C2-on the forum to keep us out of too much tro
uble.=C2- For those of you who may not have seen his web site: http://www
.etigerrr.com/Default.htm =C2-=C2-His obituary is below.=0A>http://www.
legacy.com/obituaries/saltlaketribune/obituary-print.aspx?n=michael-dewit
t-howe&pid=158527721=0A>I know he appreciated all of your comments, espec
========== =0A>=0A>
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Death in the Family |
I wish to express my condolences to the family as well. As an absolute
newbie, I remember scrutinizing his site with its high resolution photos
as we paralleled progress on our projects and got to exchange a couple
of emails about this or that. At some point the updates to the site
stopped without definite conclusion on the project. It is great to hear
we both got to finish and fly. For that I am grateful for his
contribution to us all.
Thanks Mike!
Jae
--
#40533 RV-10
First flight 10/19/2011
Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011
do not archive
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Urgent: EAA Members - Action! |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Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Urgent: EAA Members - Action! |
I heard first hand from someone a while back who is a vendor,
who was not ever allowed to post, and had some issues. It seems
that anytime someone posted a "Check out my airplane" review
where they told about their product, that whole thread
would be removed, and basically they were later "shaken down"
and told that nothing, even positive comments on their products
from other members, was acceptable to post (even first-hand
reviews by happy customers), unless you were a paid advertiser.
The rates for said advertising were surprisingly steep, also.
I have been told that some of the ads on the main page go
for $10,000 (or more...that's an old number). It bothers me
a bit when you can't write something nice about a product
you bought that you liked, just because the vendor hasn't paid.
Isn't it always good for the list readers to hear positive
or negative reviews on things?
Beyond that, I'm of the mindset that you either run a site
on donations/subscriptions, you run it on advertising, or you
run it on sales, but you pick one of the 3.
It's a nice forum, but it would be nicer if it weren't
so censored. There's no reason to shutdown a thread
like that on the EAA, because clearly on a web forum
style site, the people reading that thread CHOOSE to
read it...it's not being forced into their inbox.
Shouldn't be threatening to anyone...
Tim
do not archive
On 7/16/2012 2:48 PM, Michael Sausen wrote:
> Some things never change over there. This is why when he shut down
> the old Yahoo forums several of us instead decided to put our support
> behind Matronics which is truly donation supported vs. the high $$
> revenue he receives from advertisers. He still passes the tin cup
> around with the poor ole me and my little website rhetoric while
> prohibiting anyone that sells a product from contributing to any
> discussions without coughing up considerably first. I drew the line
> when my posts were edited, not deleted, edited to remove any criticism
> of his censoring practices back during the Yahoo days. I probably
> wouldnt care if he would drop the my site needs your donation BS and
> just ran it as ad supported like it really is. Glad we were able to
> keep this group going for open discussion, even if we do get off topic
> occasionally.
>
> Off soapbox :)
>
> Do not archive
>
> Michael
>
> *From:*owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *davidsoutpost@comcast.net
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:09 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Urgent: EAA Members - Action!
>
> Looks like DR over on the VansAirforce Forum closed out and put the
> kybash on any talk of the EAA and its current direction classifying it
> as "politics" which is against forum rules. What a shame considering it
> is one of the largest EXPIMENTAL aviation forum's and what better
> avenue to organize the homebuilder base. Its his sandbox though
> so,,,,,,,,,,,,.
>
> David Clifford
>
> RV-10 Builder
> Howell, MI
>
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Urgent: EAA Members - Action! |
I've always wondered what the history was with the solid RV-10 presence
here and very little on VAF.
I can't say I blame anyone though. It is getting to be over-moderated for
my taste too.
Besides, most of the RV-10 flyers are over here and I'd rather solicit
advice from a flyer vs a builder. Nothing against builders, I am one...
But it's good to hear what the owners of flying airplanes would do
differently for convenience, appearance, safety, or ease of maintenance.
Phil
On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Michael Sausen <michael@sausen.net> wrote:
> Some things never change over there. This is why when he shut down
> the old Yahoo forums several of us instead decided to put our support
> behind Matronics which is truly donation supported vs. the high $$ revenu
e
> he receives from advertisers. He still passes the tin cup around with th
e
> =91poor ole me and my little website=92 rhetoric while prohibiting anyone
that
> sells a product from contributing to any discussions without coughing up
> considerably first. I drew the line when my posts were edited, not
> deleted, edited to remove any criticism of his censoring practices back
> during the Yahoo days. I probably wouldn=92t care if he would drop the m
y
> site needs your donation BS and just ran it as ad supported like it reall
y
> is. Glad we were able to keep this group going for open discussion, even
> if we do get off topic occasionally.****
>
> ** **
>
> Off soapbox :)****
>
> Do not archive****
>
> Michael
>
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Urgent: EAA Members - Action! |
I agree Tim....
Now I understand why some of my posts on DR's site have disappeared....I must have
said something nice about a product that is not on the "approved" list.
Do not archive
Rene' Felker
N423CF
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Urgent: EAA Members - Action!
I heard first hand from someone a while back who is a vendor, who was not ever
allowed to post, and had some issues. It seems that anytime someone posted a
"Check out my airplane" review where they told about their product, that whole
thread would be removed, and basically they were later "shaken down"
and told that nothing, even positive comments on their products from other members,
was acceptable to post (even first-hand reviews by happy customers), unless
you were a paid advertiser.
The rates for said advertising were surprisingly steep, also.
I have been told that some of the ads on the main page go for $10,000 (or more...that's
an old number). It bothers me a bit when you can't write something nice
about a product you bought that you liked, just because the vendor hasn't
paid.
Isn't it always good for the list readers to hear positive or negative reviews
on things?
Beyond that, I'm of the mindset that you either run a site on donations/subscriptions,
you run it on advertising, or you run it on sales, but you pick one of
the 3.
It's a nice forum, but it would be nicer if it weren't so censored. There's no
reason to shutdown a thread like that on the EAA, because clearly on a web forum
style site, the people reading that thread CHOOSE to read it...it's not being
forced into their inbox.
Shouldn't be threatening to anyone...
Tim
do not archive
On 7/16/2012 2:48 PM, Michael Sausen wrote:
> Some things never change over there. This is why when he shut down
> the old Yahoo forums several of us instead decided to put our support
> behind Matronics which is truly donation supported vs. the high $$
> revenue he receives from advertisers. He still passes the tin cup
> around with the poor ole me and my little website rhetoric while
> prohibiting anyone that sells a product from contributing to any
> discussions without coughing up considerably first. I drew the line
> when my posts were edited, not deleted, edited to remove any criticism
> of his censoring practices back during the Yahoo days. I probably
> wouldn t care if he would drop the my site needs your donation BS and
> just ran it as ad supported like it really is. Glad we were able to
> keep this group going for open discussion, even if we do get off topic
> occasionally.
>
> Off soapbox :)
>
> Do not archive
>
> Michael
>
> *From:*owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *davidsoutpost@comcast.net
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:09 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Urgent: EAA Members - Action!
>
> Looks like DR over on the VansAirforce Forum closed out and put the
> kybash on any talk of the EAA and its current direction classifying it
> as "politics" which is against forum rules. What a shame considering
> it is one of the largest EXPIMENTAL aviation forum's and what better
> avenue to organize the homebuilder base. Its his sandbox though
> so,,,,,,,,,,,,.
>
> David Clifford
>
> RV-10 Builder
> Howell, MI
>
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Death in the Family |
In my short visit a couple years ago, it seemed that the EAA members at
Bountiful Airport truly were a family, especially the RV-10 builders.
When you look at what Mike contributed with his web site, Rick in
helping Mike finish and fly, what Sean and Scott managed to do with the
supplemental door latch and other mods, it is quite a contribution to
the RV-10 community. Thanks to all.
Kelly
On 7/16/2012 9:42 AM, Scott Schmidt wrote:
> Mike will be missed at the airport. He was the guy who was willing to
> do anything to help you with a project or anything else. I will miss
> him stopping by to say hi.
> Rick, I am sure glad you helped Mike finish the RV-10. It is great he
> was able to fly it and enjoy it before passing.
> Scott Schmidt
> scottmschmidt@yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Richard Barnes <rickbarnes@highlanddental.com>
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Monday, July 16, 2012 8:52 AM
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Death in the Family
>
> Just a note to let you know that my dear friend and RV10 builder
> Mike Howe passed away last week. For many of you, his web site
> was of great value. He took several hundred photos of each step in
> the build process. His passion was flying and to be able to build
> the RV10 brought him great joy. We used your help on the forum
> to keep us out of too much trouble. For those of you who may not
> have seen his web site: http://www.etigerrr.com/Default.htm His
> obituary is below.
> http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/saltlaketribune/obituary-print.aspx?n=michael-dewitt-howe&pid=158527721
> I know he appreciated all of your comments, especially the primer
> wars.
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Ya, the reality is he will never make it a subscriptions site as pilots are notoriously
cheap. :) If he did that his traffic would drop dramatically in favor
of something like our list and the advertisers would laugh him out of his
nice little gig before he could even lower his ad rates. He keeps up the donations
facade just so people believe that they are the reason the site keeps running
and he can squeeze out every penny from the site. Based on his own numbers
he's already made almost 30k this year and 50k last year off of just donations.
You can bet that anything to do with aviation in his household is written
off as a business expense. I don't have a problem with running the site as
his job, or collecting advertising and donations, I have a problem with his
methods and tactics. They are very used car salesman like. Of course like everything
else I post, this is just my opinion.
Seriously, I'm done now! :D
Michael
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Urgent: EAA Members - Action!
I heard first hand from someone a while back who is a vendor, who was not ever
allowed to post, and had some issues. It seems that anytime someone posted a
"Check out my airplane" review where they told about their product, that whole
thread would be removed, and basically they were later "shaken down"
and told that nothing, even positive comments on their products from other members,
was acceptable to post (even first-hand reviews by happy customers), unless
you were a paid advertiser.
The rates for said advertising were surprisingly steep, also.
I have been told that some of the ads on the main page go for $10,000 (or more...that's
an old number). It bothers me a bit when you can't write something nice
about a product you bought that you liked, just because the vendor hasn't
paid.
Isn't it always good for the list readers to hear positive or negative reviews
on things?
Beyond that, I'm of the mindset that you either run a site on donations/subscriptions,
you run it on advertising, or you run it on sales, but you pick one of
the 3.
It's a nice forum, but it would be nicer if it weren't so censored. There's no
reason to shutdown a thread like that on the EAA, because clearly on a web forum
style site, the people reading that thread CHOOSE to read it...it's not being
forced into their inbox.
Shouldn't be threatening to anyone...
Tim
do not archive
On 7/16/2012 2:48 PM, Michael Sausen wrote:
> Some things never change over there. This is why when he shut down
> the old Yahoo forums several of us instead decided to put our support
> behind Matronics which is truly donation supported vs. the high $$
> revenue he receives from advertisers. He still passes the tin cup
> around with the poor ole me and my little website rhetoric while
> prohibiting anyone that sells a product from contributing to any
> discussions without coughing up considerably first. I drew the line
> when my posts were edited, not deleted, edited to remove any criticism
> of his censoring practices back during the Yahoo days. I probably
> wouldnt care if he would drop the my site needs your donation BS and
> just ran it as ad supported like it really is. Glad we were able to
> keep this group going for open discussion, even if we do get off topic
> occasionally.
>
> Off soapbox :)
>
> Do not archive
>
> Michael
>
> *From:*owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *davidsoutpost@comcast.net
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:09 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Urgent: EAA Members - Action!
>
> Looks like DR over on the VansAirforce Forum closed out and put the
> kybash on any talk of the EAA and its current direction classifying it
> as "politics" which is against forum rules. What a shame considering
> it is one of the largest EXPIMENTAL aviation forum's and what better
> avenue to organize the homebuilder base. Its his sandbox though
> so,,,,,,,,,,,,.
>
> David Clifford
>
> RV-10 Builder
> Howell, MI
>
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Death in the Family |
This is very sad news.
I never tired of watching Mike's progress, and whenever the head scratching
commenced, his was one of the sites I'd invariably search, and just as
invariably find the answer. Then the site seemed to go quiet (as did mine,
of course), which made me feel somehow left without a mentor. I never met
him, but am certainly going to miss his presence.
RIP Mike.
John J
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Barnes
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 7:53 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Death in the Family
Just a note to let you know that my dear friend and RV10 builder Mike Howe
passed away last week. For many of you, his web site was of great value.
He took several hundred photos of each step in the build process. His
passion was flying and to be able to build the RV10 brought him great joy.
We used your help on the forum to keep us out of too much trouble. For
those of you who may not have seen his web site:
http://www.etigerrr.com/Default.htm His obituary is below.
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/saltlaketribune/obituary-print.aspx?n=micha
el-dewitt-howe
<http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/saltlaketribune/obituary-print.aspx?n=mich
ael-dewitt-howe&pid=158527721> &pid=158527721
I know he appreciated all of your comments, especially the "primer wars".
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Urgent: EAA Members - Action! |
Might want to take a look at this..http://www.rvairspace.com/index.html
In a message dated 7/16/2012 1:11:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
Tim@MyRV10.com writes:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com>
I heard first hand from someone a while back who is a vendor,
who was not ever allowed to post, and had some issues. It seems
that anytime someone posted a "Check out my airplane" review
where they told about their product, that whole thread
would be removed, and basically they were later "shaken down"
and told that nothing, even positive comments on their products
from other members, was acceptable to post (even first-hand
reviews by happy customers), unless you were a paid advertiser.
The rates for said advertising were surprisingly steep, also.
I have been told that some of the ads on the main page go
for $10,000 (or more...that's an old number). It bothers me
a bit when you can't write something nice about a product
you bought that you liked, just because the vendor hasn't paid.
Isn't it always good for the list readers to hear positive
or negative reviews on things?
Beyond that, I'm of the mindset that you either run a site
on donations/subscriptions, you run it on advertising, or you
run it on sales, but you pick one of the 3.
It's a nice forum, but it would be nicer if it weren't
so censored. There's no reason to shutdown a thread
like that on the EAA, because clearly on a web forum
style site, the people reading that thread CHOOSE to
read it...it's not being forced into their inbox.
Shouldn't be threatening to anyone...
Tim
do not archive
On 7/16/2012 2:48 PM, Michael Sausen wrote:
> Some things never change over there. This is why when he shut down
> the old Yahoo forums several of us instead decided to put our support
> behind Matronics which is truly donation supported vs. the high $$
> revenue he receives from advertisers. He still passes the tin cup
> around with the =98poor ole me and my little website=99 rhet
oric while
> prohibiting anyone that sells a product from contributing to any
> discussions without coughing up considerably first. I drew the line
> when my posts were edited, not deleted, edited to remove any criticism
> of his censoring practices back during the Yahoo days. I probably
> wouldn=99t care if he would drop the my site needs your donation B
S and
> just ran it as ad supported like it really is. Glad we were able to
> keep this group going for open discussion, even if we do get off topic
> occasionally.
>
> Off soapbox :)
>
> Do not archive
>
> Michael
>
> *From:*owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *davidsoutpost@comcast.net
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:09 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Urgent: EAA Members - Action!
>
> Looks like DR over on the VansAirforce Forum closed out and put the
> kybash on any talk of the EAA and its current direction classifying it
> as "politics" which is against forum rules. What a shame considering it
> is one of the largest EXPIMENTAL aviation forum's and what better
> avenue to organize the homebuilder base. Its his sandbox though
> so,,,,,,,,,,,,.
>
> David Clifford
>
> RV-10 Builder
> Howell, MI
>
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | new site? why different? |
Why? looks like the same thing to me?
Maybe on what is different? looks like a whole lot of the same
advertisers already?
I=99m already a member and I believe this is a good thing Glenn is
doing. I am all for running a business, but I am also all for the
builders, which is what makes this (Matronics) forum what it is, no one
doing anything other than giving opinions and focused on our planes. I
bet Doug started with a good intention than moved on to leave his job to
run the site full time- tells me he is looking to provide a service and
make money on it. So he=99s making lot off of it, good for him for
being successful! The problem, from what I am hearing, is we end up
paying for the advertisers fees if we buy one of their products, so if
rvairspace.com is proving a link for advertisers at a lesser rate or as
a service to the end users it would do 1 of two things- the advertisers
will make more money for their products than VAF (since they are not
paying upwards of 10K a year in fees) and 2-maybe the advertisers may
see that benefit and use the rvairspace.com site to provide a discount
to reflect the =9Cbenefit=9D of using the site. In the end
everyone wins, eventually Glenn will see a booming site and start
getting more people to donate, maybe even work out a deal with
advertisers to get a percentage of the sales as a =9Creferral
fee=9D. I am all for people being compensated for their efforts,
especially if it=99s a win-win for everyone.
Competition is good, start up=99s are a good thing, running them
to the success that VAF has amounted to will be hard, but certainly with
the RV groups, there is great potential if given a reason to support it.
Would be great to hear how Glenn is running his start-up any different
than Doug does his.
From: BELTEDAIR@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Urgent: EAA Members - Action!
Might want to take a look at this..http://www.rvairspace.com/index.html
In a message dated 7/16/2012 1:11:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
Tim@MyRV10.com writes:
I heard first hand from someone a while back who is a vendor,
who was not ever allowed to post, and had some issues. It seems
that anytime someone posted a "Check out my airplane" review
where they told about their product, that whole thread
would be removed, and basically they were later "shaken down"
and told that nothing, even positive comments on their products
from other members, was acceptable to post (even first-hand
reviews by happy customers), unless you were a paid advertiser.
The rates for said advertising were surprisingly steep, also.
I have been told that some of the ads on the main page go
for $10,000 (or more...that's an old number). It bothers me
a bit when you can't write something nice about a product
you bought that you liked, just because the vendor hasn't paid.
Isn't it always good for the list readers to hear positive
or negative reviews on things?
Beyond that, I'm of the mindset that you either run a site
on donations/subscriptions, you run it on advertising, or you
run it on sales, but you pick one of the 3.
It's a nice forum, but it would be nicer if it weren't
so censored. There's no reason to shutdown a thread
like that on the EAA, because clearly on a web forum
style site, the people reading that thread CHOOSE to
read it...it's not being forced into their inbox.
Shouldn't be threatening to anyone...
Tim
do not archive
On 7/16/2012 2:48 PM, Michael Sausen wrote:
> Some things never change over there. This is why when he shut
down
> the old Yahoo forums several of us instead decided to put our
support
> behind Matronics which is truly donation supported vs. the high $$
> revenue he receives from advertisers. He still passes the tin cup
> around with the =98poor ole me and my little website=99
rhetoric while
> prohibiting anyone that sells a product from contributing to any
> discussions without coughing up considerably first. I drew the line
> when my posts were edited, not deleted, edited to remove any
criticism
> of his censoring practices back during the Yahoo days. I probably
> wouldn=99t care if he would drop the my site needs your
donation BS and
> just ran it as ad supported like it really is. Glad we were able to
> keep this group going for open discussion, even if we do get off
topic
> occasionally.
>
> Off soapbox :)
>
> Do not archive
>
> Michael
>
> *From:*owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *davidsoutpost@comcast.net
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:09 AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Urgent: EAA Members - Action!
>
> Looks like DR over on the VansAirforce Forum closed out and put the
> kybash on any talk of the EAA and its current direction classifying
it
> as "politics" which is against forum rules. What a shame
considering it
> is one of the largest EXPIMENTAL aviation forum's and what better
> avenue to organize the homebuilder base. Its his sandbox though
> so,,,,,,,,,,,,.
>
> David Clifford
>
> RV-10 Builder
> Howell, e ies ay - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
List Contribution Web Site p;
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: new site? why different? |
The simple answer is that it's 99.9999% un-moderated by design.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 16, 2012, at 7:54 PM, "Pascal" <rv10flyer@verizon.net> wrote:
> Why? looks like the same thing to me?
> Maybe on what is different? looks like a whole lot of the same advertisers
already?
> I=99m already a member and I believe this is a good thing Glenn is d
oing. I am all for running a business, but I am also all for the builders, w
hich is what makes this (Matronics) forum what it is, no one doing anything o
ther than giving opinions and focused on our planes. I bet Doug started with
a good intention than moved on to leave his job to run the site full time- t
ells me he is looking to provide a service and make money on it. So he
=99s making lot off of it, good for him for being successful! The problem, f
rom what I am hearing, is we end up paying for the advertisers fees if we bu
y one of their products, so if rvairspace.com is proving a link for advertis
ers at a lesser rate or as a service to the end users it would do 1 of two t
hings- the advertisers will make more money for their products than VAF (sin
ce they are not paying upwards of 10K a year in fees) and 2-maybe the advert
isers may see that benefit and use the rvairspace.com site to provide a disc
ount to reflect the =9Cbenefit=9D of using the site. In the end
everyone wins, eventually Glenn will see a booming site and start getting m
ore people to donate, maybe even work out a deal with advertisers to get a p
ercentage of the sales as a =9Creferral fee=9D. I am all for peo
ple being compensated for their efforts, especially if it=99s a win-wi
n for everyone.
> Competition is good, start up=99s are a good thing, running them to t
he success that VAF has amounted to will be hard, but certainly with the RV g
roups, there is great potential if given a reason to support it.
> Would be great to hear how Glenn is running his start-up any different tha
n Doug does his.
>
>
>
> From: BELTEDAIR@aol.com
> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 4:55 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Urgent: EAA Members - Action!
>
> Might want to take a look at this..http://www.rvairspace.com/index.html
>
> In a message dated 7/16/2012 1:11:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, Tim@MyRV1
0.com writes:
>
> I heard first hand from someone a while back who is a vendor,
> who was not ever allowed to post, and had some issues. It seems
> that anytime someone posted a "Check out my airplane" review
> where they told about their product, that whole thread
> would be removed, and basically they were later "shaken down"
> and told that nothing, even positive comments on their products
> from other members, was acceptable to post (even first-hand
> reviews by happy customers), unless you were a paid advertiser.
> The rates for said advertising were surprisingly steep, also.
> I have been told that some of the ads on the main page go
> for $10,000 (or more...that's an old number). It bothers me
> a bit when you can't write something nice about a product
> you bought that you liked, just because the vendor hasn't paid.
> Isn't it always good for the list readers to hear positive
> or negative reviews on things?
>
> Beyond that, I'm of the mindset that you either run a site
> on donations/subscriptions, you run it on advertising, or you
> run it on sales, but you pick one of the 3.
>
> It's a nice forum, but it would be nicer if it weren't
> so censored. There's no reason to shutdown a thread
> like that on the EAA, because clearly on a web forum
> style site, the people reading that thread CHOOSE to
> read it...it's not being forced into their inbox.
> Shouldn't be threatening to anyone...
>
> Tim
> do not archive
>
> On 7/16/2012 2:48 PM, Michael Sausen wrote:
> > Some things never change over there. This is why when he shut down
> > the old Yahoo forums several of us instead decided to put our support
> > behind Matronics which is truly donation supported vs. the high $$
> > revenue he receives from advertisers. He still passes the tin cup
> > around with the =98poor ole me and my little website=99 rhet
oric while
> > prohibiting anyone that sells a product from contributing to any
> > discussions without coughing up considerably first. I drew the line
> > when my posts were edited, not deleted, edited to remove any criticism
> > of his censoring practices back during the Yahoo days. I probably
> > wouldn=99t care if he would drop the my site needs your donation B
S and
> > just ran it as ad supported like it really is. Glad we were able to
> > keep this group going for open discussion, even if we do get off topic
> > occasionally.
> >
> > Off soapbox :)
> >
> > Do not archive
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > *From:*owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> > *davidsoutpost@comcast.net
> > *Sent:* Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:09 AM
> > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Urgent: EAA Members - Action!
> >
> > Looks like DR over on the VansAirforce Forum closed out and put the
> > kybash on any talk of the EAA and its current direction classifying it
> > as "politics" which is against forum rules. What a shame considering it
> > is one of the largest EXPIMENTAL aviation forum's and what better
> > avenue to organize the homebuilder base. Its his sandbox though
> > so,,,,,,,,,,,,.
> >
> > David Clifford
> >
> > RV-10 Builder
> > Howell, e ies ay - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List C
ontribution Web Site p;
>
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | new site? why different? |
I really don't get all this consternation over the VAF site..............no
secret what the rules are/were. Seems like many posters here want to run
DR out of business. If you don't want to pay him don't but I don't get the
begrudging.............and it seems odd to me that so many begrudge his de
sire to have a donation (which apparently you would never do) but you have
so much "knowledge" about what is on the site........so apparently you spen
d some time there. Maybe its time to get some more fiber in your diet and/
or start another kit to burn off some energy. :)
From: rv10flyer@verizon.net
Subject: RV10-List: new site? why different?
Why? looks like the same thing to me?
Maybe on what is different? looks like a whole lot of the same advertisers
already?
I=92m already a member and I believe this is a good thing Glenn is doing. I
am all for running a business=2C but I am also all for the builders=2C whic
h is what
makes this (Matronics) forum what it is=2C no one doing anything other than
giving
opinions and focused on our planes. I bet Doug started with a good intentio
n
than moved on to leave his job to run the site full time- tells me he is lo
oking
to provide a service and make money on it. So he=92s making lot off of it
=2C good
for him for being successful! The problem=2C from what I am hearing=2C is w
e end up
paying for the advertisers fees if we buy one of their products=2C so if
rvairspace.com is proving a link for advertisers at a lesser rate or as a
service to the end users it would do 1 of two things- the advertisers will
make
more money for their products than VAF (since they are not paying upwards o
f 10K
a year in fees) and 2-maybe the advertisers may see that benefit and use th
e
rvairspace.com site to provide a discount to reflect the =93benefit=94 of u
sing the
site. In the end everyone wins=2C eventually Glenn will see a booming site
and start getting more people to donate=2C maybe even work out a deal with
advertisers to get a percentage of the sales as a =93referral fee=94. I am
all for
people being compensated for their efforts=2C especially if it=92s a win-wi
n for
everyone.
Competition is good=2C start up=92s are a good thing=2C running them to the
success that VAF has amounted to will be hard=2C but certainly with the RV
groups=2C
there is great potential if given a reason to support it.
Would be great to hear how Glenn is running his start-up any different than
Doug does his.
From: BELTEDAIR@aol.com
Sent: Monday=2C July 16=2C 2012 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Urgent: EAA Members -
Action!
Might want to take a look at
this..http://www.rvairspace.com/index.html
In a message dated 7/16/2012 1:11:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time=2C
Tim@MyRV10.com writes:
-->
RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com>
I heard
first hand from someone a while back who is a vendor=2C
who was not ever
allowed to post=2C and had some issues. It seems
that anytime someone
posted a "Check out my airplane" review
where they told about their
product=2C that whole thread
would be removed=2C and basically they were later
"shaken down"
and told that nothing=2C even positive comments on their
products
from other members=2C was acceptable to post (even
first-hand
reviews by happy customers)=2C unless you were a paid
advertiser.
The rates for said advertising were surprisingly steep=2C
also.
I have been told that some of the ads on the main page go
for
$10=2C000 (or more...that's an old number). It bothers me
a bit when
you can't write something nice about a product
you bought that you liked=2C
just because the vendor hasn't paid.
Isn't it always good for the list
readers to hear positive
or negative reviews on things?
Beyond that=2C
I'm of the mindset that you either run a site
on donations/subscriptions=2C
you run it on advertising=2C or you
run it on sales=2C but you pick one of the
3.
It's a nice forum=2C but it would be nicer if it weren't
so
censored. There's no reason to shutdown a thread
like that on the
EAA=2C because clearly on a web forum
style site=2C the people reading that
thread CHOOSE to
read it...it's not being forced into their
inbox.
Shouldn't be threatening to anyone...
Tim
do not
archive
On 7/16/2012 2:48 PM=2C Michael Sausen
wrote:
> Some things never change over there.
This is why when he shut down
> the old Yahoo forums several of us
instead decided to put our support
> behind Matronics which is truly
donation supported vs. the high $$
> revenue he receives from
advertisers. He still passes the tin cup
> around with the =91poor
ole me and my little website=92 rhetoric while
> prohibiting anyone that
sells a product from contributing to any
> discussions without coughing
up considerably first. I drew the line
> when my posts were
edited=2C not deleted=2C edited to remove any criticism
> of his censoring
practices back during the Yahoo days. I probably
> wouldn=92t care
if he would drop the my site needs your donation BS and
> just ran it as
ad supported like it really is. Glad we were able to
> keep this
group going for open discussion=2C even if we do get off topic
>
occasionally.
>
> Off soapbox :)
>
> Do not
archive
>
> Michael
>
>
*From:*owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>
*davidsoutpost@comcast.net
> *Sent:* Sunday=2C July 15=2C 2012 8:09
AM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List:
Urgent: EAA Members - Action!
>
> Looks like DR over on the
VansAirforce Forum closed out and put the
> kybash on any talk of the
EAA and its current direction classifying it
> as "politics" which is
against forum rules. What a shame considering it
> is one of the
largest EXPIMENTAL aviation forum's and what better
> avenue to
organize the homebuilder base. Its his sandbox though
>
so=2C=2C=2C=2C=2C=2C=2C=2C=2C=2C=2C=2C.
>
> David Clifford
>
> RV-10
Builder
> Howell=2C e ies
ay
- MATRONICS WEB
FORUMS -
List Contribution Web Site
p=3B
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: new site? why different? |
He's got a business model based on ad's and donations. I have no
problem with that, and am happy that someone has managed to make a
living doing what he's doing. Apparently, his business model doesn't
need the controversy of the EAA debate, and I understand that too,
although I figured it drove enough traffic that his advertisers would
benefit from the added visibility.
My only disappointment was that the information was removed from the
site very quickly, so I can't track down some of the individuals who
made insightful comments to have a discussion with them via e-mail or
PM. With even a day or two of notice, I could have made a few notes
about who I'd like to follow-up with.
----- Original Message -----
From: Roxanne and Mike Lefever
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 10:31 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: new site? why different?
I really don't get all this consternation over the VAF
site..............no secret what the rules are/were. Seems like many
posters here want to run DR out of business. If you don't want to pay
him don't but I don't get the begrudging.............and it seems odd to
me that so many begrudge his desire to have a donation (which apparently
you would never do) but you have so much "knowledge" about what is on
the site........so apparently you spend some time there. Maybe its time
to get some more fiber in your diet and/or start another kit to burn off
some energy. :)
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: new site? why different? |
Don't get me wrong...Doug's a nice guy, and he runs a nice site
that is well organized. He has his policies and he's welcome to
enforce them as he sees fit. As long as the people there understand
the policies and things are done in the open, I think that's fine.
It's just that I don't personally agree with the multi-funding
model, and there again, since it's in effect a private BUSINESS,
it's not my call. I vote with my dollars, and I choose not to donate
since it's a site with lots of advertisers. For Matronics, since
it's a true non-advertising system, I donate usually $75-100 per
year. I enjoy helping fellow builders out. If he dropped the ads,
I'd likely actually donate some there too...even WITH the policies
they enforce. I like to support fellow RV'ers. I don't have that
many questions left to ask, so I really don't have a need for any
forum, other than the "family" feeling it provides, and I find that
the people I know best are list members here.
I also feel a bit of a feeling of integrity in the way I like to
do things. Recently I had someone approach me wanting a link on
my site, with info posted about their product, including a write-up.
It was a product I have never used and probably will never use,
and they asked if they could give me a few hundred dollars for
posting a permanent link. I turned them down. Why? Because the
things that I have written on my site are genuine first-hand
experiences, and I don't ask for payment to write them. When I
read reviews I like the un-biased ones, and when I write a review,
if I am biased, it's because I really liked the product.
Anyhow, the forum there is nice. It's useful, and it's done
well. I just prefer to spend my time here and go out of my way
a bit more to answer questions asked here. It's easier for me
to reply to an email that I see hourly than to dig through a
forum that I see every few days, or few weeks as I get time.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 7/16/2012 9:31 PM, Roxanne and Mike Lefever wrote:
> I really don't get all this consternation over the VAF
> site..............no secret what the rules are/were. Seems like many
> posters here want to run DR out of business. If you don't want to pay
> him don't but I don't get the begrudging.............and it seems odd to
> me that so many begrudge his desire to have a donation (which apparently
> you would never do) but you have so much "knowledge" about what is on
> the site........so apparently you spend some time there. Maybe its time
> to get some more fiber in your diet and/or start another kit to burn off
> some energy. :)
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: rv10flyer@verizon.net
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: new site? why different?
> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 17:54:22 -0700
>
> Why? looks like the same thing to me?
> Maybe on what is different? looks like a whole lot of the same
> advertisers already?
> Im already a member and I believe this is a good thing Glenn is doing.
> I am all for running a business, but I am also all for the builders,
> which is what makes this (Matronics) forum what it is, no one doing
> anything other than giving opinions and focused on our planes. I bet
> Doug started with a good intention than moved on to leave his job to run
> the site full time- tells me he is looking to provide a service and make
> money on it. So hes making lot off of it, good for him for being
> successful! The problem, from what I am hearing, is we end up paying for
> the advertisers fees if we buy one of their products, so if
> rvairspace.com is proving a link for advertisers at a lesser rate or as
> a service to the end users it would do 1 of two things- the advertisers
> will make more money for their products than VAF (since they are not
> paying upwards of 10K a year in fees) and 2-maybe the advertisers may
> see that benefit and use the rvairspace.com site to provide a discount
> to reflect the benefit of using the site. In the end everyone wins,
> eventually Glenn will see a booming site and start getting more people
> to donate, maybe even work out a deal with advertisers to get a
> percentage of the sales as a referral fee. I am all for people being
> compensated for their efforts, especially if its a win-win for everyone.
> Competition is good, start ups are a good thing, running them to the
> success that VAF has amounted to will be hard, but certainly with the RV
> groups, there is great potential if given a reason to support it.
> Would be great to hear how Glenn is running his start-up any different
> than Doug does his.
> *From:* BELTEDAIR@aol.com <mailto:BELTEDAIR@aol.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, July 16, 2012 4:55 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Urgent: EAA Members - Action!
> *Might want to take a look at this..http://www.rvairspace.com/index.html*
> In a message dated 7/16/2012 1:11:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> Tim@MyRV10.com writes:
>
>
> I heard first hand from someone a while back who is a vendor,
> who was not ever allowed to post, and had some issues. It seems
> that anytime someone posted a "Check out my airplane" review
> where they told about their product, that whole thread
> would be removed, and basically they were later "shaken down"
> and told that nothing, even positive comments on their products
> from other members, was acceptable to post (even first-hand
> reviews by happy customers), unless you were a paid advertiser.
> The rates for said advertising were surprisingly steep, also.
> I have been told that some of the ads on the main page go
> for $10,000 (or more...that's an old number). It bothers me
> a bit when you can't write something nice about a product
> you bought that you liked, just because the vendor hasn't paid.
> Isn't it always good for the list readers to hear positive
> or negative reviews on things?
>
> Beyond that, I'm of the mindset that you either run a site
> on donations/subscriptions, you run it on advertising, or you
> run it on sales, but you pick one of the 3.
>
> It's a nice forum, but it would be nicer if it weren't
> so censored. There's no reason to shutdown a thread
> like that on the EAA, because clearly on a web forum
> style site, the people reading that thread CHOOSE to
> read it...it's not being forced into their inbox.
> Shouldn't be threatening to anyone...
>
> Tim
> do not archive
>
> On 7/16/2012 2:48 PM, Michael Sausen wrote:
> > Some things never change over there. This is why when he shut down
> > the old Yahoo forums several of us instead decided to put our support
> > behind Matronics which is truly donation supported vs. the high $$
> > revenue he receives from advertisers. He still passes the tin cup
> > around with the poor ole me and my little website rhetoric while
> > prohibiting anyone that sells a product from contributing to any
> > discussions without coughing up considerably first. I drew the line
> > when my posts were edited, not deleted, edited to remove any
> criticism
> > of his censoring practices back during the Yahoo days. I probably
> > wouldnt care if he would drop the my site needs your donation BS and
> > just ran it as ad supported like it really is. Glad we were able to
> > keep this group going for open discussion, even if we do get off
> topic
> > occasionally.
> >
> > Off soapbox :)
> >
> > Do not archive
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > *From:*owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> > *davidsoutpost@comcast.net
> > *Sent:* Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:09 AM
> > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Urgent: EAA Members - Action!
> >
> > Looks like DR over on the VansAirforce Forum closed out and put the
> > kybash on any talk of the EAA and its current direction
> classifying it
> > as "politics" which is against forum rules. What a shame
> considering it
> > is one of the largest EXPIMENTAL aviation forum's and what better
> > avenue to organize the homebuilder base. Its his sandbox though
> > so,,,,,,,,,,,,.
> >
> > David Clifford
> >
> > RV-10 Builder
> > Howell, e ies ay - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List
> Contribution Web Site p;
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
> *
>
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|