Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:50 AM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna (Dave Saylor)
2. 07:15 AM - ELT antenna (Chris Hukill)
3. 07:19 AM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna (Kelly McMullen)
4. 07:35 AM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna (Tim Olson)
5. 07:49 AM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna (Kelly McMullen)
6. 07:51 AM - Re: ELT antenna (Carl Froehlich)
7. 07:58 AM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna (Tim Olson)
8. 08:08 AM - Re: High altitude performance (tysonr)
9. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna (Jesse Saint)
10. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: Mythical, Magical, Travelling Nose Gear Incert Tool (Michael Sausen)
11. 12:53 PM - Re: ELT Antenna (Bill Watson)
12. 08:23 PM - RV 10 Builder want-a-be (Terry Moushon)
13. 10:38 PM - Re: ELT Antenna (nukeflyboy)
Message 1
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Doesn't it need to be vertically polarized (pointing up, not horizontal)?
Mine is mounted on the back seat cross bar against the left side. I
figured the cross bar provides some ground plane, as does the rest of
the nearby sheet metal. Seems to work fine.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 11:55 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu> wrote:
>
> Anyone mount their antenna to the baggage area bulkhead, with the antenna running
just below the baggage area fiberglass ceiling?
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382041#382041
>
>
Message 2
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I mounted my 406 ELT antenna using the baggage bulkhead as the ground
plane and actually embedded wire of the antenna in the canopy cover, (as
well as the GPS antenna). My RV8 has the ELT antenna in the wing tip,
mounted horizontally, and that passed the AirForce operational test as
well, in a closed metal hangar. The vertical mounting that is
recommended (not required by the aircraft manufacturer), is to optimize
the low power (100mw)121.5 MHz signal for the SAR to home in on. The
horizontal polarization optimizes the much stronger (5 watt) 406 MHz
signals getting to the satellites. As the aircraft manufacture, I
prioritized the ability to get a signal up to a satellite rather than to
the ground searchers. I did also leave in the old 5 Watt, 121.5 MHz ELT
as well for those guys to practice with. Any DAR without the
understanding of this technology or the rights and responsibilities of
the aircraft builder will be eliminated as contenders for my choice for
certification.
Chris Hukill
RV10 on hold while RV8 gets yet another new panel with ADS-B and
Synthetic Vision.
Message 3
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Optimal is vertically polarized when needed. IMHO, if you crash and
wind up in the same orientation as normal on the gear, you probably
don't need the ELT. Otherwise, in any other crash position, you probably
do need ELT, but I'm not smart enough to predict that position, much
less which way that would make vertical. One of the experts on the
AeroElectric list estimated that if you had horizontal orientation
instead of vertical you would lose about 3 db of signal strength.
I do like your idea as a potential location for the antenna that would
be out of the way, and technically meet the install instructions for
vertical orientation.
Kelly
On 8/29/2012 6:49 AM, Dave Saylor wrote:
>
> Doesn't it need to be vertically polarized (pointing up, not horizontal)?
>
> Mine is mounted on the back seat cross bar against the left side. I
> figured the cross bar provides some ground plane, as does the rest of
> the nearby sheet metal. Seems to work fine.
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 11:55 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Anyone mount their antenna to the baggage area bulkhead, with the antenna running
just below the baggage area fiberglass ceiling?
>>
>> --------
>> Bob Turner
>> RV-10 QB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382041#382041
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Message 4
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Personally, I'd agree with this. The one thing that people tend
to overlook though is that probably the MOST important thing
is that you maintain the integrity of the antenna to ELT box
connection. It won't matter much where the antenna is, if the
antenna cable is ripped away from the ELT because it was
mounted to some structure that tore away. So keeping the
antenna mounted either to the same structure or to something
very nearby or robust nearby would be best.
Tim
On 8/29/2012 9:19 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> Optimal is vertically polarized when needed. IMHO, if you crash and
> wind up in the same orientation as normal on the gear, you probably
> don't need the ELT. Otherwise, in any other crash position, you probably
> do need ELT, but I'm not smart enough to predict that position, much
> less which way that would make vertical. One of the experts on the
> AeroElectric list estimated that if you had horizontal orientation
> instead of vertical you would lose about 3 db of signal strength.
> I do like your idea as a potential location for the antenna that would
> be out of the way, and technically meet the install instructions for
> vertical orientation.
> Kelly
Message 5
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Very valid point Tim. I'm not sure that going through the baggage
compartment bulkhead would meet that criteria. On the other hand, I
don't want to mount the ELT all the way back in the tail cone where
only a 10 year old could get in and change the battery, nor do I
really want it in the cabin where a bag or pax could accidentally bump
it.
Kelly
On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 7:35 AM, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
>
> Personally, I'd agree with this. The one thing that people tend
> to overlook though is that probably the MOST important thing
> is that you maintain the integrity of the antenna to ELT box
> connection. It won't matter much where the antenna is, if the
> antenna cable is ripped away from the ELT because it was
> mounted to some structure that tore away. So keeping the
> antenna mounted either to the same structure or to something
> very nearby or robust nearby would be best.
>
> Tim
Message 6
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Chris,
Perfect explanation using facts and data.
The system of FSDOs and DARS provides opportunities for "I thinks" to become
unfounded and undocumented requirements. On my FSDO RV-10 inspection, he h
ad some understanding of multiple wavelength antenna radiation patterns so m
y empennage mounted ELT antenna was not an issue. He did however have a har
d requirement for a TSO certified wet compass. I pointed out to him the rea
l requirement being "a magnetic heading reference" and since I have two ADHR
S units I more than met the requirement. I knew this up front so I elected t
o roll on it. I mounted the TSO wet compass from Vans - and got the sign of
f.
The upside is this is a real nice wet compass - that I carefully calibrated,
connected it to the dimmer circuit, and will never use.
Carl
On Aug 29, 2012, at 10:15 AM, "Chris Hukill" <cjhukill@cox.net> wrote:
> I mounted my 406 ELT antenna using the baggage bulkhead as the ground plan
e and actually embedded wire of the antenna in the canopy cover, (as well as
the GPS antenna). My RV8 has the ELT antenna in the wing tip, mounted horiz
ontally, and that passed the AirForce operational test as well, in a closed m
etal hangar. The vertical mounting that is recommended (not required by the a
ircraft manufacturer), is to optimize the low power (100mw)121.5 MHz signal f
or the SAR to home in on. The horizontal polarization optimizes the much str
onger (5 watt) 406 MHz signals getting to the satellites. As the aircraft ma
nufacture, I prioritized the ability to get a signal up to a satellite rathe
r than to the ground searchers. I did also leave in the old 5 Watt, 121.5 MH
z ELT as well for those guys to practice with. Any DAR without the understan
ding of this technology or the rights and responsibilities of the aircraft b
uilder will be eliminated as contenders for my choice for certification.
>
> Chris Hukill
> RV10 on hold while RV8 gets yet another new panel with ADS-B and Synthetic
Vision.
>
>
==========================
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=========
>
Message 7
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Not that I'd call this a "best" place by any means, but
I put mine right above the elevator trim stuff, between
the 2 trim cables, on top of that upper deck, under
the vertical stab, with the antenna facing back next to it
under the VS. For me, it was good for W&B, and it
also makes it easy to replace the batteries (even though
it's a 5 year thing now) because just pulling that
fairing gives full access. Should be a beefy place
on the structure and if I go in, the tail should go
in last. :)
Tim
On 8/29/2012 9:49 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> Very valid point Tim. I'm not sure that going through the baggage
> compartment bulkhead would meet that criteria. On the other hand, I
> don't want to mount the ELT all the way back in the tail cone where
> only a 10 year old could get in and change the battery, nor do I
> really want it in the cabin where a bag or pax could accidentally bump
> it.
> Kelly
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 7:35 AM, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
>>
>> Personally, I'd agree with this. The one thing that people tend
>> to overlook though is that probably the MOST important thing
>> is that you maintain the integrity of the antenna to ELT box
>> connection. It won't matter much where the antenna is, if the
>> antenna cable is ripped away from the ELT because it was
>> mounted to some structure that tore away. So keeping the
>> antenna mounted either to the same structure or to something
>> very nearby or robust nearby would be best.
>>
>> Tim
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: High altitude performance |
I'm not going to be the guy that says you can or can't take off in 2000' at 5000MSL,
but having just returned from a month (40hrs) of flying in CO and surrounding
states I can tell you a little about my experience. Flying a 280hp RV-10
with 170 lb pilot (me), a 190 lb co-pilot, and approx. 50 lbs baggage, we were
off Leadville (9900 MSL, 14,000 DA !!) in significantly less than half of the
6400' runway. My suggestions in priority order are: if possible have a local
expert co-pilot as I did, lean to max RPM at run up, be sure the engine is
warmed up before take off, don't carry fuel (weight) you don't need (I typically
filled to 30 gals), use short field TO technique (brakes, no reflex in flaps).
I'm from Florida so the first few seconds seemed painfully slow, but after
that the plane accelerated quickly. Also, make sure your air intake system
is clear and clean.
--------
Tyson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382056#382056
Message 9
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That's exactly where and how I have mounted them myself. Just like having the data
plate on the tail, that's the part that will probably survive a crash best.
I also fully agree with the polarity arguments. If I can land with the wheels
down and the VS up, then the ELT won't help much.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Mythical, Magical, Travelling Nose Gear Incert Tool |
Will do, found them on Amazon for $11.19.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lew Gallagher
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 8:13 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Mythical, Magical, Travelling Nose Gear Incert Tool
The latest update on the traveling helicoil kit: It is leaving Steve in IL, headed
to Chris in NV. There are only 3 inserts left (another tang broke off) so
Michael, be looking for the inserts at your local NAPA store. They come in
a 12 pack. It is part #7703098. It lists for $15.32 and I paid a sale price
of $9.15 for it. Let me know if you cant get it and Ill send another pack ahead.
Later, - Lew
Do not archive
--------
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=381453#381453
Message 11
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Given all the carbuncles and antenna I have hanging off my '10,
especially after adding the NavWorx ADSb box, I regretted not having
installed my ELT antenna in the tail. Then I had an experience that not
only removed the regret but in fact added another antenna to the
slipstream. I'll share the experience FWIW....
My panel includes a G430w and an SL30. Based on previous experience, I
knew my primary comm radio would be the SL30. The comm on the G430w
would only be used occassionally for stuff like pre-startup clearances
and as a backup for the primary.
So for antennas I decided to connect the SL30 to a belly mounted bent
whip and the G430 comm to a Bob Archer wingtip antenna. The units
share a Bob Archer wingtip nav antenna. The G430's GPS antenna is
mounted on top free and clear. A few other GPS and Wx antenna are
mounted underneath the windshield.
This all worked perfectly. I was convinced that the Bob Archer Comm
would not perform optimally and that was true. It did not have the Tx
or Rx range of the SL30 and it's belly whip but it performed well in
it's intended role. I knew that normal operations would be GPS-centric
so I was comfortable with possibly suboptimal performance from the
navs. In fact, the setup appears to work quite well particularly in
approach operations where I can find no deficiencies.
At about 150 hours, I decided to take our longest trip to date from NC
to AZ. It all went well until our arrival at KSDL when we flew under a
line of storms and probably took an electrical hit of some sort. We
lost more than 50% of our SL30's function (limited range, intermittent
RX and lot's of static). I switched to the G430 for the rest of the
arrival (it was just good enough).
At least we made our destination but it was not lost on me that the
failure occurred at maximum distance from home.
I'm thinking at this point that while the G430/Bob Archer works, it is
not the radio I can rely on for the return legs because of it's somewhat
limited range. In other words, my backup turns out not to be a real
backup. It was good enough to get into KSDL but not for the distances
involved or for the IFR operations required to get home.
With some help from a local RV10 builder, I was able to get behind the
panel and swap antenna so that my belly mount was connected to the
G430. That was not as simple as it sounds. It required ferrying the
airplane across town and a 1.5 days of our trip to arrange. Moreover,
isolating the fault (SL30 or PM9000EX or ?) was complicated by a second
fault that occurred during the antenna swap, but that's another story.
The bottom line was that I had installed and invested in dual comms
where I considered 1 little more than a backup. But when I needed a
backup, it effectively was not there for me. And it ended up costing
more time and money than it should have.
This experience changed my perspective a bit:
I put a 2nd belly whip in for my comm2 because it has to perform as well
as my comm1 when needed.
I'm glad I did a TSO compliant ELT antenna installation and didn't opt
for a more streamlined installation (though I'm not convinced that the
tail fairing installation is any more or less likely to perform as
needed, if needed). In any case, I'll probably haul that draggy whip
for thousands of miles and never use it once, but... you know.
I'm happy with my Bob Archer nav antenna because I know it will do what
I need it to do.
I'm glad I did a optimal GPS antenna install for the G430 rather than
trying to elegantly hide it. I depend on it for 99.999% of my navigation.
Anyway, thanks for letting me share.
Bill "sitting underneath a Bob Archer comm antenna hung on my wall" Watson
>
> I am looking at installing my ACK E-04 antenna under the tail
> intersection fiberglass fairing. I've read through a good discussion
> on the AeroElectric list and feel the trade-off of horizontal
> polarization, vs protection from impact and eliminating the drag is
> worth it. I know that Mooney got approval for similar antenna instal
> for a 406 antenna in fiberglass ventral fin.
> My question is if anyone has done this and gotten any grief from their
> DAR. My only concern is to fully meet the TSO on the ELT you are
> supposed to comply with the install instructions, that call for
> vertical mounting withing 30 degrees.
> Kelly
> 40866
> forever finishing
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | RV 10 Builder want-a-be |
RV 10 builders/flyers. First, let me thank you for all the documentation I have
reviewed over the last few weeks. Well done! I started flying 30 years ago,
but like many, stopped to raise a family. Now that I have recently retired,
I am revisiting those things I set aside many, many years ago. I did my BFR
in April (1978 Archer) and have flown about 40 hours since then just getting back
into the saddle.
I did sit in an RV 10 at Osh this year but did not get a chance for a demo ride.
Living in Peoria Illinois makes it a factory visit for a demo ride pretty expensive....
money I would rather put into a plane. What I would like is rather
simple. I would like to take a ride with a builder/pilot for a good demo...followed
by good old fashioned conversation about the process....good and bad.
I am very willing to offset your costs....but believe your input would be priceless.
That said, a local contact would be great.... Driving several hundred miles to
meet at an airport... No problem... I would love to avoid driving 2100 miles
for a demo.
Please give me a shout if you know someone who can help.
Sincerely,
RV Builder want-to-be
Terry Moushon
Tmoushon@gmail.com
Peoria, Illinois
Message 13
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My 406 manual said it needed a 24 in radius ground plane, if I remember correctly.
As Tim said it should be located where it will remain intact and connected
antenna to box. There are not a lot of options if you take the ground plane
requirement seriously. My ELT is behind the baggage bulkhead and the antenna
just behind it on the top of the tailbone. It sticks out, which I don't like,
but at least it should work per the specs if ever needed.
--------
Dave Moore
RV-6 flying
RV-10 QB - flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382125#382125
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