Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:26 AM - Re: High altitude performance (AirMike)
2. 04:56 AM - Re: Re: Travel canopy cover recommendations (Tim Olson)
3. 05:01 AM - Re: Re: High altitude performance (Tim Olson)
4. 05:18 AM - Re: Travel canopy cover recommendations (dmaib@me.com)
5. 05:44 AM - Re: Re: Travel canopy cover recommendations (Kelly McMullen)
6. 05:45 AM - Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question (jkreidler)
7. 07:16 AM - Re: Re: Travel canopy cover recommendations (Pascal)
8. 07:23 AM - Re: Re: High altitude performance (Pascal)
9. 07:49 AM - Re: Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question (Bill Watson)
10. 07:54 AM - Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question (jkreidler)
11. 07:55 AM - Re: Re: Travel canopy cover recommendations (Bill Watson)
12. 07:57 AM - Re: Travel canopy cover recommendations (rv10flyer)
13. 08:25 AM - Re: High altitude performance (rv10flyer)
14. 09:04 AM - Re: Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question (Robin Marks)
15. 09:08 AM - Re: Re: High altitude performance (Robin Marks)
16. 09:09 AM - Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question (rv10flyer)
17. 09:12 AM - Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question (jkreidler)
18. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: High altitude performance (Pascal)
19. 09:24 AM - Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question (jkreidler)
20. 09:32 AM - Re: Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question (Robin Marks)
21. 09:56 AM - Re: Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question (Jesse Saint)
22. 10:00 AM - Triple Tree Fly-In 9/6-9/9/12 at SC00. (rv10flyer)
23. 11:15 AM - Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question (jkreidler)
24. 11:23 AM - Re: Triple Tree Fly-In 9/6-9/9/12 at SC00. ()
25. 11:39 AM - Re: Triple Tree Fly-In 9/6-9/9/12 at SC00. (rv10flyer)
26. 01:42 PM - Re: Weather on landing (Pascal)
27. 02:18 PM - Re: Mythical, Magical, Travelling Nose Gear Incert Tool (Lew Gallagher)
28. 05:52 PM - Re: Re: Weather on landing (Bill Watson)
29. 06:06 PM - Re: Re: Weather on landing (Robin Marks)
30. 07:30 PM - Re: Re: Weather on landing (Roxanne and Mike Lefever)
31. 07:39 PM - Re: Re: Weather on landing (Phillip Perry)
32. 07:49 PM - Re: Re: Weather on landing (Robin Marks)
33. 07:54 PM - Re: Re: Weather on landing (Pascal)
34. 09:23 PM - Re: Re: Weather on landing (Nikolaos Napoli)
35. 10:03 PM - Re: Weather on landing (rv10flyer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: High altitude performance |
I fly out of Truckee, CA at 5900 feet. Getting out very light meaning pilot only
might not be a problem, but landing might be a bigger problem. With no wind
or a cross wind your relative speed is a lot higher on landing. Sometimes I am
shocked at the distance that it takes to slow down and make the turnoff. On a
hot windy and turbulent day, you need to maintain a bit of extra speed ( I like
80 knots) down final. With these conditions you can easily eat up 2500 ft.
--------
See you OSH '12
Q/B - flying 2 yrs.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382187#382187
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Travel canopy cover recommendations |
See that's where my opinion differs. If you go with the aluminized stuff, you
need to do your very best to minimize contact with the windows...and perhaps find
the least real metallic ones you can. I went to Walmart and bought some good
ones and cut to fit back for OSH a few years ago. Now, those are the ONLY
real scratches I have on my windows...on the inside. I scratched my windows
far far more by using sun shields than the canopy ever did....and scratches are
harder to fix on the inside.
So personally, I wouldn't go with this advice. But, if you're doing it real real
carefully and using great materials and re-binding any cut edges to protect
the window, then I'm sure it would be a good idea. I know mine made a significant
decrease in heat cutting. The canopy cover, however, does an even better
job for me. I don't know where Abby gets that white on black material but it's
awesome stuff.
Tim
On Aug 31, 2012, at 1:21 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> I don't use one but I do use one of those aluminized sun guards that are used
in autos. I'd recommend getting and using one before investing in a regular
canopy cover or perhaps in lieu of using the one you have.
>
> When we landed in Phoenix early this summer, it felt like my interior started
melting and things just started coming apart. I looked around the ramp and saw
that practically every airplane, especially the jets, had one of those sun
guards in the windshield. A quick trip to Autozone and I found a half dozen varieties
from less than $5 to $25 or so. I picked a cheap one and it worked like
a charm. Much better than expected.
>
> Yes, it only covers the windshield but that takes care of 80% of sun. The loose,
sloppy fit means that it has little actual contact with the windshield so
scratching is not a problem. It's super light, fan folds for storage, and it
has a slot in the middle so it can hang on the rear view mirror. The same slot
fits around our center post just fine.
>
> I works so well that even if I neglect to deploy it at tie down, I'll often put
it up during pre-flight to cool things off and do my pre-flight stuff. On
a sunny ramp, it's the last thing I stow before shutting the doors and starting
the engine.
>
> I used regular canopy covers on my sailplanes years ago but they have a few problems.
Scratching and dirt being one. That's real pain if you get high winds
overnight and/or the hold downs are not properly in place and the cover flaps
around for a few hours or days. Then you reto always disassemble and box it).
>
> Anyway, you should try one of these things. I don't have any water leaks so
the only thing I'm looking for is sun protection. These things are cheap, very
easy to use, super light and easy to stow. Blocking only most of the sun coming
thru the windshield I've found is more than sufficient for casual parking.
The canopy cover would be the thing to use if it's tied out all the time.
>
> Triple Tree fly-in! Didn't know they had one but wish I had. Great place and
people there. I was there a few years ago for an RC event. Anyplace self-described
as the "Augusta of Aviation" is worth a visit. Assuming it's there next
year, I'll have to give it a try. Have fun Wayne!
>
> Bill "suggests getting cowl plugs too - it's amazing how much material a starling
can fit under a RV10 cowling... and how hard it is to get it all out" Watson
>
>
> On 8/30/2012 11:19 PM, rv10flyer wrote:
>>
>> I have Abby's, carried it on a few long trips and have not used it yet. Hangared
on one trip. When should I use it? I have been worried about trapping dirt
beneath with wind and scratching plexi. I do have a few water leaks around door
hinge screws that I need to seal up. Do most of you install it for security/sun
fading/water leaks/cabin cooler??
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: High altitude performance |
Same here most days. I've made it down short nicely a few times, but the one thing
I would never count on is staying under 1000' for takeoff or landing. You
may get to where you could do it regularly with some good flying but not at
any altitude. I personally don't think I'd bother trying a landing at a strip
that's less than 2000' with the family along....and never at 5000msl. Vans
takeoff and landing
Specs are probably some of the hardest ones to match, IMHO.
Tim
On Aug 31, 2012, at 12:30 AM, Robin Marks <robin@PaintTheWeb.com> wrote:
>
> I have ~700 hours in various RV's and I could not spot land & stop in 650' at
gross. I don't even want to try.
>
> Robin
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:13 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: High altitude performance
>
>
> Hmm, Van's specs for sea level gross wt takeoff is 500 ft. Are you sure you need
3 times that? Landing 650' at gross. I know I am not that skilled at this
time, but only have a bit more than an hour in a -10, so I don't know how hard
it is to match Van's published numbers.
>
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 8:00 PM, rv10flyer <wayne.gillispie@gmail.com> wrote:
>> --> <wayne.gillispie@gmail.com>
>>
>> I fly at 2700 gross weight all the time with my family out of a 5000' runway
length at an elevation of 663'. I have 260 hp all standard items. In the summer
I use approximately 1500'-1800' for both takeoff and landing safely. No, I
would not do it unless light or in an emergency.
>>
>> --------
>> Wayne Gillispie
>> 40983SB 12/1/2009-12/1/2011
>> N715WD TT= 76.9 and loving it!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382172#382172
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Travel canopy cover recommendations |
We use ours all the time and have not had any issues with scratching the plexi.
It sat outside for 10 days in Asheville, NC last month during some very hot weather.
I noticed a bit of sticky residue from the cover on my aft cabin top.
It wiped right off with no problem. I am not sure if something from the cover
came off because of the heat or if there was something on the airplane that I
did not notice prior to installing the cover.
The last time we went to Cedar Key, I put it on, even though we were only going
to be there for a few hours. Combination of protection from the fierce FL sun
and prying eyes, makes it worth the few minutes it takes to install.
--------
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
Transition Trainer
New Smyrna Beach, FL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382195#382195
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Travel canopy cover recommendations |
Custom made, fully cloth bound inside covers can be good, especially
if you have to store an aircraft outside for an extended period in a
very dusty climate. That is why the majority of aircraft parked on the
ramp in Arizona have them. Most are custom made to fit factory built
aircraft.
On the other hand, for a trip, temporary outside storage, the external
cover provides protection from both sun and rain. Whether you install
it or not can be based on local forecast for the few days you are
staying away from home.
I had both varieties for my Mooney. After I replaced the windows with
new(to eliminate 40 yrs of scratches and cloudiness) I pitched the
inside covers. I plan on an external cover for the RV for travel, and
hangar at Aridzona home base.
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 4:55 AM, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
>
> See that's where my opinion differs. If you go with the aluminized stuff, you
need to do your very best to minimize contact with the windows...and perhaps
find the least real metallic ones you can. I went to Walmart and bought some
good ones and cut to fit back for OSH a few years ago. Now, those are the ONLY
real scratches I have on my windows...on the inside. I scratched my windows
far far more by using sun shields than the canopy ever did....and scratches
are harder to fix on the inside.
>
> So personally, I wouldn't go with this advice. But, if you're doing it real
real carefully and using great materials and re-binding any cut edges to protect
the window, then I'm sure it would be a good idea. I know mine made a significant
decrease in heat cutting. The canopy cover, however, does an even better
job for me. I don't know where Abby gets that white on black material but
it's awesome stuff.
> Tim
>
>
> On Aug 31, 2012, at 1:21 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't use one but I do use one of those aluminized sun guards that are used
in autos. I'd recommend getting and using one before investing in a regular
canopy cover or perhaps in lieu of using the one you have.
>>
>> When we landed in Phoenix early this summer, it felt like my interior started
melting and things just started coming apart. I looked around the ramp and
saw that practically every airplane, especially the jets, had one of those sun
guards in the windshield. A quick trip to Autozone and I found a half dozen
varieties from less than $5 to $25 or so. I picked a cheap one and it worked
like a charm. Much better than expected.
>>
>> Yes, it only covers the windshield but that takes care of 80% of sun. The loose,
sloppy fit means that it has little actual contact with the windshield so
scratching is not a problem. It's super light, fan folds for storage, and it
has a slot in the middle so it can hang on the rear view mirror. The same slot
fits around our center post just fine.
>>
>> I works so well that even if I neglect to deploy it at tie down, I'll often
put it up during pre-flight to cool things off and do my pre-flight stuff. On
a sunny ramp, it's the last thing I stow before shutting the doors and starting
the engine.
>>
>> I used regular canopy covers on my sailplanes years ago but they have a few
problems. Scratching and dirt being one. That's real pain if you get high winds
overnight and/or the hold downs are not properly in place and the cover flaps
around for a few hours or days. Then you reto always disassemble and box
it).
>>
>> Anyway, you should try one of these things. I don't have any water leaks so
the only thing I'm looking for is sun protection. These things are cheap, very
easy to use, super light and easy to stow. Blocking only most of the sun
coming thru the windshield I've found is more than sufficient for casual parking.
The canopy cover would be the thing to use if it's tied out all the time.
>>
>> Triple Tree fly-in! Didn't know they had one but wish I had. Great place and
people there. I was there a few years ago for an RC event. Anyplace self-described
as the "Augusta of Aviation" is worth a visit. Assuming it's there next
year, I'll have to give it a try. Have fun Wayne!
>>
>> Bill "suggests getting cowl plugs too - it's amazing how much material a starling
can fit under a RV10 cowling... and how hard it is to get it all out" Watson
>>
>>
>> On 8/30/2012 11:19 PM, rv10flyer wrote:
>>>
>>> I have Abby's, carried it on a few long trips and have not used it yet. Hangared
on one trip. When should I use it? I have been worried about trapping dirt
beneath with wind and scratching plexi. I do have a few water leaks around
door hinge screws that I need to seal up. Do most of you install it for security/sun
fading/water leaks/cabin cooler??
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question |
I have been researching this whole topic in depth over the last week or so. There is one site in particular with some really good information, check out www.n91cz.com specifically his articles on cooling and his link to interesting technical reports NASA CR 3405. I have also been getting some advice from the guys over on the other forum. www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=79454
While we are in the process of gathering the necessary data through actual pressure
measurements, I think it is premature to assume the cowl inlet is too small.
Here is what I have learned so far, this may be obvious to others but it took me
time to pick it up (I may have eaten paint chips as a kid).
Dynamic pressure is generated as we push the airplane through the air, to the tune
of around 6.5 H2O @ 100 knots, 14.6 H2O @ 150 knots, 25.9 H2O @ 200 knots.
We can covert airspeed to pressure and vice versa, think of it this way, the
tank of your air compressor contains pressure, when you open a blow nozzle you
convert that pressure into airspeed. So we have a fixed pressure available
depending on our airspeed, no more, no less. So depending on your speed we will
need to convert some of that dynamic pressure into differential pressure between
the upper and lower deck of the engine in order to keep things cool duh
that part is easy. So the other day we took some measurements and I had asked
the group what it all means. In our example we were seeing pressure in our plenum
of 6.5 at ~150 knots wow that means we are only converting 6.5 of the available
dynamic pressure of 14.6 into pressure in the upper cowl. Now given
that our lower cowl pressure was 3 it means that we only have 3.5 of differential
pressure available to cool the engine, about half of what we should have.
It also means that if we get the lower cowl pressure all the way down to zero,
by lets say, I dont know, completely removing it, we still would only have marginal
differential pressure cooling air available.
So our top side is terrible at converting the 150 knot air stream into usable dynamic
pressure, now lets look at the lower cowl. Remember that we have low dynamic
pressure in the lower cowl and we do not have very far to go in order to
improve it, so adding cowl flaps and louvers will not get us where we need to
be, no matter what until we fix the top side the changing the bottom will yield
marginal results at best. One more key point to think about in the lower
cowl, when that air exits the lower cowl we will need to get it back up to speed.
If it is at zero dynamic pressure it means it is standing still, meaning
we will have to accelerate it back up to 150 knots, and that is cooling drag.
Look at it this way if the air came into the top cowl at 150 knots (14.6) and
left the cowl at 150 knots (14.6) we would have zero cooling drag, but since
it comes in at 150 knots and does some work in the middle and exits at a lower
airspeed we have cooling drag. What we really want to have happen is for the
air to come in and do the absolute bare minimum amount of work required to cool
things down and then exit. Ideally we want the upper deck pressure to equal
the dynamic pressure available due to airspeed, and the lower cowl pressure
to equal that value minus the difference in pressure require to cool the engine
for a given condition.
Great, so what the heck does all that really mean, where am I going to focus my
effort? First things first, before doing anything drastic it is important to
collect the pressure data. To install all of the instrumentation and do a test
run took about three hours, that is nothing! Per the articles on the web site
I referenced above I want to start by looking at the area just behind the
cooling inlets (diffusers). Turns out if the shape directly behind the inlet
rings is wrong the pressure generated will build a dam that prevents any more
air from getting in, this is called external pressure recovery and requires a
much larger inlet. What I want to happen is for the air to come into the inlet
and the inlet to be shaped aerodynamically like a venturi so the air expands
directly behind the inlet. This means a very smooth transition so the air doesnt
stall create turbulence and dam up, which is called internal pressure recovery.
Once we get beyond that point the shape doesnt really matter. Dont ask
me what all of that looks like yet, I am still trying to figure that out and
the guys took the airplane to Yellowstone over Labor Day. But for now I am putting
on hold the idea of cutting in bigger inlet rings. When / if we get the
upper plenum pressure to where it needs to be I may look at cowl flaps to throttle
the exit depending on flight conditions like airspeed and power settings.
The purpose of the cowl flaps at that point should be to close off the opening
rather than enlarge it in order to reduce cooling drag.
On another note for those of you with baffles, the NASA article used a Piper Aztec
(Lycoming 540s) as a test bed. There data showed that in that installation
the baffles leaked by 38% of the cooling air. That is a huge amount of cooling
drag, so like Tim and others have said spend some time and seal up your baffles
to the engine. Even if you dont have cooling problems you are still giving
away power and speed by having leaks.
I think there is hope. I will let you know what comes of all of this but it will
be a while.
Sorry for the long post - Jason
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382197#382197
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Travel canopy cover recommendations |
I was concerned about scratching plexi as well. At the beginning I left a
towel over the front windscreen, but it became apparent that that is not
needed if I assure the plexi was cleaned first. I used mine in SC, GA in
June and the plane was kept quite cool. To answer your "security/sun
fading/water leaks/cabin cooler??" Yes! anytime I am somewhere with 104f
heat (NM mid day) I use it for 1 hour or more of sitting. It has made a oven
a comfortable cabin.
-----Original Message-----
From: rv10flyer
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:19 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Travel canopy cover recommendations
I have Abby's, carried it on a few long trips and have not used it yet.
Hangared on one trip. When should I use it? I have been worried about
trapping dirt beneath with wind and scratching plexi. I do have a few water
leaks around door hinge screws that I need to seal up. Do most of you
install it for security/sun fading/water leaks/cabin cooler??
--------
Wayne Gillispie
40983SB 12/1/2009-12/1/2011
N715WD TT= 76.9 and loving it!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382175#382175
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: High altitude performance |
I dropped the plane in at stall right on the numbers and used the brakes to
slow down. Did it once during the 40 hour flyoff, no intention to do it
again, but it can be done. I can not state if it is actually 650ft but it
was the first turnoff at the airport, which I think is less than 700feet.
The bottom line is that is Vans marketing numbers, hard to duplicate unless
one is an expert that practices doing it many more times than I do.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Marks
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:30 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: High altitude performance
I have ~700 hours in various RV's and I could not spot land & stop in 650'
at gross. I don't even want to try.
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: High altitude performance
Hmm, Van's specs for sea level gross wt takeoff is 500 ft. Are you sure you
need 3 times that? Landing 650' at gross. I know I am not that skilled at
this time, but only have a bit more than an hour in a -10, so I don't know
how hard it is to match Van's published numbers.
On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 8:00 PM, rv10flyer <wayne.gillispie@gmail.com>
wrote:
> --> <wayne.gillispie@gmail.com>
>
> I fly at 2700 gross weight all the time with my family out of a 5000'
> runway length at an elevation of 663'. I have 260 hp all standard items.
> In the summer I use approximately 1500'-1800' for both takeoff and landing
> safely. No, I would not do it unless light or in an emergency.
>
> --------
> Wayne Gillispie
> 40983SB 12/1/2009-12/1/2011
> N715WD TT= 76.9 and loving it!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382172#382172
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question |
I've been following this but may have missed it; did anyone supply
pressure numbers for the stock cowl setup to facilitate comparision?
Bill
On 8/31/2012 8:44 AM, jkreidler wrote:
> In our example we were seeing pressure in our plenum of 6.5 at ~150 knots wow
that means we are only converting 6.5 of the available dynamic pressure of 14.6
into pressure in the upper cowl. Now given that our lower cowl pr!
> essure was 3 it means that we only have 3.5 of differential pressure available
to cool the engine, about half of what we should have. It also means that
if we get the lower cowl pressure all the way down to zero, by lets say, I dont
know, completely removing it, we still would only have marginal differential
pressure cooling air available.
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question |
Not that I know of, if someone wants to do a run let me know and we can talk about
the equipment.
Jason
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382204#382204
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Travel canopy cover recommendations |
i'm going to have to take a more critical look at what I'm doing.
I didn't do any customization and my windshield doesn't 'fit' closely at
all. I just stick it in there. The rear window aren't covered at all.
The edges are covered but will be checking later today.
Thanks
Bill
On 8/31/2012 7:55 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> See that's where my opinion differs. If you go with the aluminized stuff, you
need to do your very best to minimize contact with the windows...and perhaps
find the least real metallic ones you can. I went to Walmart and bought some
good ones and cut to fit back for OSH a few years ago. Now, those are the ONLY
real scratches I have on my windows...on the inside. I scratched my windows
far far more by using sun shields than the canopy ever did....and scratches
are harder to fix on the inside.
>
> So personally, I wouldn't go with this advice. But, if you're doing it real
real carefully and using great materials and re-binding any cut edges to protect
the window, then I'm sure it would be a good idea. I know mine made a significant
decrease in heat cutting. The canopy cover, however, does an even better
job for me. I don't know where Abby gets that white on black material but
it's awesome stuff.
> Tim
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Travel canopy cover recommendations |
You guys are great as always when helping a new(2008) pilot out. I have worked
on airplanes/helicopters since I was 17. There are many things you just don't
learn as an A&P or even in flight training.
Bill "and others using mylar reflective heat shield" Watson. I did forget to mention
that I used that at Osh this year and it seemed to keep the inside much
cooler. I kept it away from windshield as much as possible. I think I will try
to keep my glareshield area blown clean with shop air and keep it on the aft
side of cabin brace like at Osh. I had read about the interaction it can have
with plexi.
Side Note: Going to Triple Tree SC00 Sep 6,7 & 8th mit family. Hopefully cooler
camping than Osh. Now that was a miserable five days. Would love to see you guys
down there. Nice smooth grass- 7000' X 400'. I believe I can leave my pants
on for our -10's first grass landing????
--------
Wayne Gillispie
40983SB 12/1/2009-12/1/2011
N715WD TT= 76.9 and loving it!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382206#382206
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: High altitude performance |
It appears then that most of us loaded at gross would take our precious family/friends
into a 2000' paved strip at any of the lower elevations(
--------
Wayne Gillispie
40983SB 12/1/2009-12/1/2011
N715WD TT= 76.9 and loving it!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382207#382207
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question |
Jason,
Just a comment on leaky baffles vs. a sealed plenum and my real world experience.
On my RV-8A we have a James Cowl plus a homemade metal plenum. We worked very hard
at sealing the plenum as well as we could prior to first flight. Because it's
the 4 cylinder vs. the 6 cylinder the inlet rings and outlet area were appropriate
or should I say functional for the application. All temps (Oil, Cyl,
EGT) were excellent and speed was notably faster than Van's posted numbers probably
because I am running a BA and a new 200 Hp IO-360. So fast I could not break
in the engine FWF down low.
I then decided to replace the plenum with a baffle system. To test the set up prior
to finalizing everything we flew the plane w/o any RTV sealing. There were
gaps where my inlet ramps transitioned to the baffle and narrow but long gaps
where the lower baffle edge metal transitions to the engine case fore and aft.
The only seal that was actually correct was out top rubber seal to the inside
of the upper cowl.
To my surprise I have the exact same speed numbers and there were no noticeable
differences in any temps. I continued to fly in this configuration for another
20 hours with basically perfect numbers. I have a hard time getting over the
joy of looking at my EMS and seeing numbers that dont scare me like on the -10.
The plane will be out of paint in the next 2 weeks (surrrre!) and it will be the
first time I fly it with a completely sealed baffle system.
Not sure what to say as I was expecting to see some issues with an unsealed baffle
system but that was not the case. Maybe I will see some improvement once we
are sealed up but I am just as likely to attribute any difference to a freshly
painted & polished plane that has been re-rigged since all the control surfaces
have been removed & replaced than I am to attributing any change to the sealed
baffles.
Just one (4 cylinder) data point.
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jkreidler
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 5:45 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question
--> <jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com>
I have been researching this whole topic in depth over the last week or so. There is one site in particular with some really good information, check out www.n91cz.com specifically his articles on cooling and his link to interesting technical reports NASA CR 3405. I have also been getting some advice from the guys over on the other forum. www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=79454
While we are in the process of gathering the necessary data through actual pressure
measurements, I think it is premature to assume the cowl inlet is too small.
Here is what I have learned so far, this may be obvious to others but it took me
time to pick it up (I may have eaten paint chips as a kid).
Dynamic pressure is generated as we push the airplane through the air, to the tune
of around 6.5 H2O @ 100 knots, 14.6 H2O @ 150 knots, 25.9 H2O @ 200 knots.
We can covert airspeed to pressure and vice versa, think of it this way, the
tank of your air compressor contains pressure, when you open a blow nozzle you
convert that pressure into airspeed. So we have a fixed pressure available
depending on our airspeed, no more, no less. So depending on your speed we will
need to convert some of that dynamic pressure into differential pressure between
the upper and lower deck of the engine in order to keep things cool duh
that part is easy. So the other day we took some measurements and I had asked
the group what it all means. In our example we were seeing pressure in our plenum
of 6.5 at ~150 knots wow that means we are only converting 6.5 of the available
dynamic pressure of 14.6 into pressure in the upper cowl. Now given
that our lower cowl pr!
essure was 3 it means that we only have 3.5 of differential pressure available
to cool the engine, about half of what we should have. It also means that if
we get the lower cowl pressure all the way down to zero, by lets say, I dont
know, completely removing it, we still would only have marginal differential pressure
cooling air available.
So our top side is terrible at converting the 150 knot air stream into usable dynamic
pressure, now lets look at the lower cowl. Remember that we have low dynamic
pressure in the lower cowl and we do not have very far to go in order to
improve it, so adding cowl flaps and louvers will not get us where we need to
be, no matter what until we fix the top side the changing the bottom will yield
marginal results at best. One more key point to think about in the lower
cowl, when that air exits the lower cowl we will need to get it back up to speed.
If it is at zero dynamic pressure it means it is standing still, meaning
we will have to accelerate it back up to 150 knots, and that is cooling drag.
Look at it this way if the air came into the top cowl at 150 knots (14.6) and
left the cowl at 150 knots (14.6) we would have zero cooling drag, but since
it comes in at 150 knots and does some work in the middle and exits at a lower
airspeed we have cooling drag. What we re!
ally want to have happen is for the air to come in and do the absolute bare minimum
amount of work required to cool things down and then exit. Ideally we want
the upper deck pressure to equal the dynamic pressure available due to airspeed,
and the lower cowl pressure to equal that value minus the difference in
pressure require to cool the engine for a given condition.
Great, so what the heck does all that really mean, where am I going to focus my
effort? First things first, before doing anything drastic it is important to
collect the pressure data. To install all of the instrumentation and do a test
run took about three hours, that is nothing! Per the articles on the web site
I referenced above I want to start by looking at the area just behind the
cooling inlets (diffusers). Turns out if the shape directly behind the inlet
rings is wrong the pressure generated will build a dam that prevents any more
air from getting in, this is called external pressure recovery and requires a
much larger inlet. What I want to happen is for the air to come into the inlet
and the inlet to be shaped aerodynamically like a venturi so the air expands
directly behind the inlet. This means a very smooth transition so the air doesnt
stall create turbulence and dam up, which is called internal pressure recovery.
Once we get beyond that point the s!
hape doesnt really matter. Dont ask me what all of that looks like yet, I am
still trying to figure that out and the guys took the airplane to Yellowstone
over Labor Day. But for now I am putting on hold the idea of cutting in bigger
inlet rings. When / if we get the upper plenum pressure to where it needs to
be I may look at cowl flaps to throttle the exit depending on flight conditions
like airspeed and power settings. The purpose of the cowl flaps at that point
should be to close off the opening rather than enlarge it in order to reduce
cooling drag.
On another note for those of you with baffles, the NASA article used a Piper Aztec
(Lycoming 540s) as a test bed. There data showed that in that installation
the baffles leaked by 38% of the cooling air. That is a huge amount of cooling
drag, so like Tim and others have said spend some time and seal up your baffles
to the engine. Even if you dont have cooling problems you are still giving
away power and speed by having leaks.
I think there is hope. I will let you know what comes of all of this but it will
be a while.
Sorry for the long post - Jason
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382197#382197
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: High altitude performance |
Pascal,
I actually do think I could hit those numbers but again I don't want to. Especially
with PAX. In general my PAX think I am a good & safe pilot. If I were to
try bare minimums I suspect there would be 3 PAX that would then think differently
afterwards. Easy on the equipment is my goal.
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: High altitude performance
I dropped the plane in at stall right on the numbers and used the brakes to slow
down. Did it once during the 40 hour flyoff, no intention to do it again, but
it can be done. I can not state if it is actually 650ft but it was the first
turnoff at the airport, which I think is less than 700feet.
The bottom line is that is Vans marketing numbers, hard to duplicate unless one
is an expert that practices doing it many more times than I do.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Marks
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:30 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: High altitude performance
I have ~700 hours in various RV's and I could not spot land & stop in 650'
at gross. I don't even want to try.
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: High altitude performance
Hmm, Van's specs for sea level gross wt takeoff is 500 ft. Are you sure you
need 3 times that? Landing 650' at gross. I know I am not that skilled at
this time, but only have a bit more than an hour in a -10, so I don't know
how hard it is to match Van's published numbers.
On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 8:00 PM, rv10flyer <wayne.gillispie@gmail.com>
wrote:
> --> <wayne.gillispie@gmail.com>
>
> I fly at 2700 gross weight all the time with my family out of a 5000'
> runway length at an elevation of 663'. I have 260 hp all standard items.
> In the summer I use approximately 1500'-1800' for both takeoff and landing
> safely. No, I would not do it unless light or in an emergency.
>
> --------
> Wayne Gillispie
> 40983SB 12/1/2009-12/1/2011
> N715WD TT= 76.9 and loving it!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382172#382172
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question |
After reading all of this, I sure am glad I went with stock. On a 90-100F day I
can exceed 400F cht's if I climb out at less than 100 kias to 5000'. Oil temps
peak around 205F. I usually climb at 115-120 kias to keep it all cooler. Good
luck with your testing as you will probably help several.
--------
Wayne Gillispie
40983SB 12/1/2009-12/1/2011
N715WD TT= 76.9 and loving it!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382210#382210
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question |
Yup, thanks Robin - and keep in mind the NASA report was looking at a factory install
job. We all know that the factory install jobs do not pay as much attention
to the little details like sealing the baffling to the engine.
I would say all speed gains from your paint can be attributed to the paint and
not sealing the baffles. $10k paint job, $3 tube of RTV - the paint without question
will make it faster! Enjoy, I am glad at least one of your birds isn't
suffering from the heat issue.
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382213#382213
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: High altitude performance |
I would say that it can be done at higher altitudes as well, as long as it
is practiced and not a random landing.
-----Original Message-----
From: rv10flyer
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 8:24 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: High altitude performance
It appears then that most of us loaded at gross would take our precious
family/friends into a 2000' paved strip at any of the lower elevations(
--------
Wayne Gillispie
40983SB 12/1/2009-12/1/2011
N715WD TT= 76.9 and loving it!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382207#382207
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question |
Wayne, that seems boring! Why just build it stock and know it will work when you
can add all of these gizmo's to make it 'better'. I have got to say that I
was a bit disappointed when we first started flying; we had added enough $1000
upgrades that promised 3 and 10 knots that I was sure we would have the first
RV-10 doing better than 300 knots! Shoot, all of that and we can just keep
up with you 'standard' guys. But that chrome spinner and round inlets really
make it look good, crap - maybe they meant they meant the James Cowl would make
it LOOK 10 knots faster!
There is a ton to be said for building it standard, I can never fault anyone for
going that way. But, since I lack the basic ingredients of a life and am cursed
with the mind and personality of an engineer I sometimes actually enjoy solving
these sorts of problems.
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382216#382216
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question |
The James cowl is EASILY 10 knots faster on the ramp.
I got to get back to work...
Robin
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jkreidler
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 9:24 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question
--> <jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com>
Wayne, that seems boring! Why just build it stock and know it will work when you
can add all of these gizmo's to make it 'better'. I have got to say that I
was a bit disappointed when we first started flying; we had added enough $1000
upgrades that promised 3 and 10 knots that I was sure we would have the first
RV-10 doing better than 300 knots! Shoot, all of that and we can just keep
up with you 'standard' guys. But that chrome spinner and round inlets really
make it look good, crap - maybe they meant they meant the James Cowl would make
it LOOK 10 knots faster!
There is a ton to be said for building it standard, I can never fault anyone for
going that way. But, since I lack the basic ingredients of a life and am cursed
with the mind and personality of an engineer I sometimes actually enjoy solving
these sorts of problems.
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382216#382216
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question |
That's a great real world experience report. I inspected a -10 in Texas that is
for sale and it had the standard cowl, but had a plenum installed. That just
made it a huge pain in the neck to get the top cowl off and made it hard to inspect
the top of the engine. I didn't fly it long enough to check on temperatures,
but I really don't see the benefit of the plenum in that setup. I told the
potential buyer that if it was me, I would remove the plenum and put on baffle
seals per the plans. The baffles were the standard ones, and then the plenum
was installed instead of baffle seals.
One thing that has seemed to help is the louvers on the side of the cowl for getting
some of the oil cooler air out. I also really like the looks of that. The
problem is that in a normal climb, the standard NACA vents get warmer air because
of the louvers, but in cruise it works fine.
I worked on one plane that seemed to have high oil temp, CHT's and EGT's, all with
a stock setup. When I checked with the engine builder, he said to pull the
top cowl after a flight and start the engine again and use a laser thermometer
on the oil filter and compare it to the reading on the EIS. He said it would
be very close to the same temperature. He said that if it was substantially cooler,
then the EIS was reading too high. It was, so there must be something in
that EIS with the voltage regulators that are reading temps higher than actual.
I don't expect that this is a normal situation, but is definitely worth checking
if you just absolutely can't seem to get your numbers down.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
On Aug 31, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Robin Marks <robin@PaintTheWeb.com> wrote:
>
> Jason,
> Just a comment on leaky baffles vs. a sealed plenum and my real world experience.
> On my RV-8A we have a James Cowl plus a homemade metal plenum. We worked very
hard at sealing the plenum as well as we could prior to first flight. Because
it's the 4 cylinder vs. the 6 cylinder the inlet rings and outlet area were appropriate
or should I say functional for the application. All temps (Oil, Cyl,
EGT) were excellent and speed was notably faster than Van's posted numbers probably
because I am running a BA and a new 200 Hp IO-360. So fast I could not
break in the engine FWF down low.
> I then decided to replace the plenum with a baffle system. To test the set up
prior to finalizing everything we flew the plane w/o any RTV sealing. There were
gaps where my inlet ramps transitioned to the baffle and narrow but long gaps
where the lower baffle edge metal transitions to the engine case fore and
aft. The only seal that was actually correct was out top rubber seal to the inside
of the upper cowl.
> To my surprise I have the exact same speed numbers and there were no noticeable
differences in any temps. I continued to fly in this configuration for another
20 hours with basically perfect numbers. I have a hard time getting over the
joy of looking at my EMS and seeing numbers that dont scare me like on the
-10.
> The plane will be out of paint in the next 2 weeks (surrrre!) and it will be
the first time I fly it with a completely sealed baffle system.
> Not sure what to say as I was expecting to see some issues with an unsealed baffle
system but that was not the case. Maybe I will see some improvement once
we are sealed up but I am just as likely to attribute any difference to a freshly
painted & polished plane that has been re-rigged since all the control surfaces
have been removed & replaced than I am to attributing any change to the
sealed baffles.
> Just one (4 cylinder) data point.
>
> Robin
Message 22
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| Subject: | Triple Tree Fly-In 9/6-9/9/12 at SC00. |
http://www.tripletreeaerodrome.com/triple-tree-fly-in.php
Watch for TFR nearby.
We are heading down Fri AM. We are looking forward to evening meals Fri and Sat.
The wife and daughter are heading up to Greenville Sat at 9 AM with the ladies
group. Going to fish with my 9 yo son in the lake. No fishing license required
for catch and release on site. About 1.7 in the -10 from Portsmouth Ohio.
See you guys there.
--------
Wayne Gillispie
40983SB 12/1/2009-12/1/2011
N715WD TT= 76.9 and loving it!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382220#382220
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Differential Pressure Test - Results Question |
Our plenum is held on with (9) 1/4 turn fasteners. It takes us about 30 seconds
to remove.
Jason
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382224#382224
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| Subject: | Re: Triple Tree Fly-In 9/6-9/9/12 at SC00. |
Come on down! Wayne, I'll be out of town but Wes should be there. We're
here in Greenville. Triple tree is a really nice venue -- maybe how Osh
used to be?
Later, - Lew
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Triple Tree Fly-In 9/6-9/9/12 at SC00. |
Look us up. White over red no frills RV-10. Small, made for four skinny people/cold
wx tent and two kids(12 & 9) that may or may not have the rv grin. Can't
miss us.
--------
Wayne Gillispie
40983SB 12/1/2009-12/1/2011
N715WD TT= 76.9 and loving it!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382226#382226
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| Subject: | Re: Weather on landing |
Imagine being a passenger on this flight. I think with the weather
showing what it did I would hold.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3RxIXLhrYM
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| Subject: | Re: Mythical, Magical, Travelling Nose Gear Incert Tool |
Michael,
I just heard from Chris in NV, and the kit is headed your way with a new pack of
inserts he has added.
Later, - Lew
Do not achive
--------
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382238#382238
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| Subject: | Re: Weather on landing |
I'm thinking that passengers saw a lot less than we did. Very cool.
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 31, 2012, at 4:41 PM, "Pascal" <rv10flyer@verizon.net> wrote:
> Imagine being a passenger on this flight. I think with the weather showing
what it did I would hold.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3RxIXLhrYM
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Weather on landing |
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Message 30
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
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| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
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|
| Subject: | Re: Weather on landing |
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Message 31
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
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| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
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|
| Subject: | Re: Weather on landing |
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Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Weather on landing |
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Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Weather on landing |
You need to know Robin to know that was completely sarcastic. I know for
a fact, being my first flight with my family was to visit Robin, that he
is VERY safety conscience.
From: Roxanne and Mike Lefever
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 7:29 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Weather on landing
I trust you're joking. The guy that did this has no experience with
microburst or just an idiot taking many people's lives in his hands.
Hopefully he will do this again soon solo and the flying public will be
saved.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
From: robin@PaintTheWeb.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Weather on landing
Really didn't seem that bad once on approach. Good to know, I think I
will ignore RED on the WX displays going forward.
Robin
Do Not Archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Weather on landing
I'm thinking that passengers saw a lot less than we did. Very cool.
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 31, 2012, at 4:41 PM, "Pascal" <rv10flyer@verizon.net> wrote:
Imagine being a passenger on this flight. I think with the weather
showing what it did I would hold.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3RxIXLhrYM
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Weather on landing |
I have a local pilot flying a 310 who routinely flies in any weather. About a
month ago I saw him takeoff around midnight at the beginning of a bad thunderstorm.
I was busy working on the plane in the hangar. I couldn't believe my eyes
as I watched him take off. There was a lightning strike in the area every
5 to 10 seconds as he was taking off and got very heavy rain within a couple
minutes of his takeoff. I watched him make a 180 deg turn after takeoff and saw
lightning strike right where he was.
I ended up getting some wind damage to my house from that storm about 4 miles from
the airport. Apparently he has been doing this for a very long time. Don't
know how he does it or if he has any special equipment on board. Maybe he
is just lucky. When I saw him at the airport the next morning he said the storm
was all bark and no bite.
Niko
On Aug 31, 2012, at 8:54 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
> I'm thinking that passengers saw a lot less than we did. Very cool.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 31, 2012, at 4:41 PM, "Pascal" <rv10flyer@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Imagine being a passenger on this flight. I think with the weather showing what
it did I would hold.
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3RxIXLhrYM
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Weather on landing |
I guess the 310 driver likes that adrenaline rush. Not for me.
--------
Wayne Gillispie
40983SB 12/1/2009-12/1/2011
N715WD TT= 76.9 and loving it!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382263#382263
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