Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:09 AM - Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel (Bob Leffler)
2. 04:46 AM - Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel (Tim Olson)
3. 05:53 AM - Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel (jkreidler)
4. 06:07 AM - Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel (bill.peyton)
5. 06:36 AM - Re: Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel (Pascal)
6. 06:38 AM - Re: Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel (bob-tcw)
7. 06:58 AM - Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel (bill.peyton)
8. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel (Kelly McMullen)
9. 07:27 AM - Re: Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel (Kelly McMullen)
10. 08:25 AM - Re: Opinion please (Ed Godfrey)
11. 08:37 AM - Opinions please (Ed Godfrey)
12. 08:51 AM - Re: Opinions please (davidsoutpost@comcast.net)
13. 09:08 AM - rudder trim RV-10 (J. R. (Dick) Dial)
14. 11:37 AM - Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel (Fred Williams)
15. 12:07 PM - Re: Elevator skin (Terry Moushon)
16. 01:10 PM - Re: rudder trim RV-10 (Bob Leffler)
17. 01:36 PM - Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel (Jesse Saint)
18. 01:52 PM - Re: Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel (bob-tcw)
19. 01:55 PM - Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel (bob-tcw)
20. 03:35 PM - Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel (billz)
21. 05:14 PM - Rigging thoughts (Carl Froehlich)
22. 05:22 PM - Re: Elevator Rib Tip Assembly (Ed Kranz)
23. 05:24 PM - Re: Elevator Rib Tip Assembly (Ed Kranz)
24. 06:12 PM - Re: Red Cube FWF install (Rick Lark)
25. 08:04 PM - Re: Red Cube FWF install (Seano)
26. 08:30 PM - Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel (rv10flyer)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel |
Bob,
Thanks for documenting your findings! Thankfully, I had already placed my r
ed cube fwf.
I'm disappointed in Van's traditional "not invented here" response. Your e
mpirical data, along with the many RV-10s with the cubes fwf, you would thin
k Van's would listen and consider that there may be another way of doing thi
ngs that may be better.
Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 10, 2012, at 8:32 PM, "bob-tcw" <rnewman@tcwtech.com> wrote:
> Fellow builders,
>
> Some of you may be aware that I=99ve seen some deviations in fuel pr
essure and flow in cruise flight in my RV-10: I=99ve got to root cau
se.
>
> After the past 10 months of investigation and discussions and general head
scratching I finally have come to a conclusion.
>
> Executive summary: Don=99t mount the fuel flow sender in the tunnel
per the plans! It has too much pressure drop and gets too warm in this loc
ation, this can lead to vapor lock. The onset seen as deviations in fuel p
ressure and fuel flow.
>
>
> The full report can be downloaded at:
>
> http://tcwtech.com/Fuel%20flow%20write-up.pdf
>
>
> Bob Newman
> N541RV
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel |
It may be that the red cube sensor is more picky than others. I've never had
a complaint about it, but mine is a flo scan. It seems the complaints all s
eem to come from those with the cube. So may e there is a difference. I *th
ink* the floor bracket holes were a perfect match for the flo scan, so that m
ay be what they used and designed around.
Tim
On Nov 11, 2012, at 2:08 AM, Bob Leffler <rv@thelefflers.com> wrote:
> Bob,
>
> Thanks for documenting your findings! Thankfully, I had already placed m
y red cube fwf.
>
> I'm disappointed in Van's traditional "not invented here" response. Your
empirical data, along with the many RV-10s with the cubes fwf, you would th
ink Van's would listen and consider that there may be another way of doing t
hings that may be better.
>
> Bob
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Nov 10, 2012, at 8:32 PM, "bob-tcw" <rnewman@tcwtech.com> wrote:
>
>> Fellow builders,
>>
>> Some of you may be aware that I=99ve seen some deviations in fuel p
ressure and flow in cruise flight in my RV-10: I=99ve got to root ca
use.
>>
>> After the past 10 months of investigation and discussions and general hea
d scratching I finally have come to a conclusion.
>>
>> Executive summary: Don=99t mount the fuel flow sender in the tunne
l per the plans! It has too much pressure drop and gets too warm in this lo
cation, this can lead to vapor lock. The onset seen as deviations in fuel
pressure and fuel flow.
>>
>>
>> The full report can be downloaded at:
>>
>> http://tcwtech.com/Fuel%20flow%20write-up.pdf
>>
>>
>> Bob Newman
>> N541RV
>>
>>
>>
>> =========================
=========
>> ctric.com
>> >www.buildersbooks.com
>> uilthelp.com
>> matronics.com/contribution
>> =========================
=========
>> ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> =========================
=========
>> cs.com
>> =========================
=========
>>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel |
Great post Bob - thanks for sharing. One of the important factors to note about
vapor lock is that the boiling point of fuel is considerably higher with higher
pressure. So the fuel before the mechanical pump is at a much lower pressure
and therefore has a much lower boiling point.
This brings back memories of problems we used to have before moving our Flow Scan
transducer to the location between the servo and spider as you did. We also
saw our fuel pressure drop on long high climbs, we added a cooling shroud to
the mechanical fuel pump. At some point we also moved the sensor, we no longer
see fuel pressure drops. I think it is fair to say that we may have experienced
the same issue as you had.
We did not see this change 'fix' our LOP stumbles, but since we were not looking
for this to effect our LOP issues I can not tell you if it made an improvement.
I still wonder if the fuel in the lines between the spider and the injectors
are vaporizing at the very low flows and low pressures.
Bottom line, your data backs up your hypothesis, thanks for sharing. There are
a lot of aircraft out there with the transducer running between the servo and
the spider. The readings are more stable, and you have offered yet one more
data point in support of moving the transducer out of the tunnel. Vans seems
to reason that they do not like the sensor up front since it is in a hotter, higher
vibration area. I wonder if either of these are actually fact, the tunnel
is quite hot. When you directly attach a piece of aluminum to the hot bottom
surface of the aircraft and then bolt the sensor tightly to that nice heat sink
subjected to all of the high frequency vibrations of the airframe, I really
don't know if it is any better off. The sensor between the servo and spider
is suspended in air mounted between two hoses which I think would do a good job
of dampening vibrations. I have NO data to say which location is higher in
vibration or temperature. I can only say that both locations are used today,
and I do not see reports of these sensors failing in either location.
If you are still building you really need to ask yourself what the BENEFIT to mounting
the sensor in the tunnel is. I struggle to see any downside to mounting
the sensor between the servo and spider, especially after seeing Bob's well
done data driven report. The issues are real, the solution is known, just my
two cents worth - Jason
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387539#387539
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel |
Bob,
Thanks for the great post. I had the similar issues with another (certified) aircraft
when the flow transducer (floscan) was installed between the electric
and mechanical fuel pump. It is my belief that the transducers don't like to
be on the suction side of the mechanical diaphragm pumps due to the pulsing of
the pump.
When we looked at the RV-10 plans it was clear to us that putting it on the output
side of the mechanical pump was the correct way to go. We also have it mounted
between the servo and the spider and it is working just fine.
--------
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387541#387541
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel |
I had the exact same thought, Bob is a smart guy so I take his hard work serious
and have thought this through.
I have had a psi issue maybe 4 times no real consistency on when however in 110
hours of flying.
Here is my thought on moving
1 Dynon tells installers NOT to install cube FWF for the EMS install
2 Vans has theirs in the tunnel and told
me to not put the cube there
3 it isn't broke
The general and Tim both mentioned
It only is an issue with the fuel pump on and even then not Big issue
3.2 hour flight yesterday, added 48.2 gallons when I returned because I was empty
my computer said I would need
48.6, it was dark and I don't think I filled it to the top. Regardless close enough.
I have no issues, not even with hot starts
If it isn't an issue why all the work to move it?
Good information however. Thanks Bob!
On Nov 10, 2012, at 9:01 PM, "charliewaffles" <mcooper@live.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience and the data. The charts and actual data are
great to see. I don't doubt typos have fixed your problem, but I wonder if
this is coincidental to the tunnel issue. Perhaps you can help me understand the
following questions?
>
> 1) if moving the red cube out of the tunnel (amoung other things) resulted in
no more problems, is your hyphothesis that the cube is heating up and causing
vapor lock?
>
> 2) all of the other people that have posted about red cube issues in the tunnel
have said the reporting of fuel consumption is high when the pump is on, but
no one else has indicate the say pressure drop and flow increase relating to
a cube in the tunnel.
>
> 3) is it possible insulating the lines and even the cube in the tunnel would
do just as good of a job? Is any where mounted to the engine or the firewall hotsidemreally
going to be cooler than the tunnel?
>
> 4) if the red cube heating in the tunnel caused the vapor lock, wouldnt that
still occur when it was on the engine and exposed to heat there?
>
> 5) it sounds like several things wee changed at once and undoubtedly fixed your
problem. How sure of you it was the red cube and not say a bend in a line,
the routing or one of the other variables that were changed.
>
> I've gone back and forth on moving the red cube during my build. Most of the
data and issues so far with the tunnel have been reporting issues, not performance
related. If the cube IS causing vapor lock (or almost) and LOP is affected,
then that is a great reason to move it. I just wonder if we have enough info
yet to say that.
>
> Just my initial thoughts and perhaps you are onto something here.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387531#387531
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel |
I received a bunch of comments off-list as well as on-list. I'll try to
summarize here for everyone.
1) My tunnel has always been insulated (on the bottom) since day 1 and
comparing to what others reported early on about hot tunnels I always
thought mine was relatively cool since in any operating condition I could
easily and comfortably keep my hand on it. Also, my firewall is insulated
on the engine side with koolmat silicone membrane.
2) I did change two things at once, I realize its not the absolutely
scientific way to do an experiment, but given the work to get in and out of
my tunnel, I had to do every thing I could in one shot.
I moved the fuel cube and the I insulated the replacement line I
installed from the electric fuel pump to the firewall bulkhead fitting.
3) Yes I used to see elevated fuel flow readings with the electric fuel
pump on just like everyone else with the fuel cube in the tunnel. However,
these high readings are totally an artifact of turbulence in the line caused
by the fuel pump. Switching the fuel pump on and off had no noticeable
effect on egt, so the fuel flow was definitely NOT actually changing.
4) The problem with the fuel cube is that of all the fittings in the
system it has the most significant pressure drop for a given flow rate. I
did dig into this extensively, the electric fuel pump in the OFF state and
fuel cube each have a similar pressure drop, followed by the pressure drop
associated with each elbow and each length of tubing. Each of these
pressures drops moves the fuel closer to its vapor pressure level.
Here's the engineering details: Avgas has a maximum reid vapor pressure of
49kPa @ 38 C or about 7.1 psi absolute pressure, a standard day at sea
level has an absolute pressure of 14.7 psi, as we know, as we go up in
altitude and/or up in temp the absolute pressure falls. When the absolute
pressure meets the vapor pressure, the fuel begins to vaporize and bad
things happen to fuel flow. So know if we go up to 11,000 ft and we raise
the temp of the tunnel to 40 C which is nice comfortable temperature as
detected by putting one's hand on the tunnel, we would have effectively a
density altitude of 16,050 ft inside the tunnel as far as the fuel would
know. So now converting the 16,050 ft to absolute pressure we get 7.9 psi.
Therefore, to avoid vapor lock issues the total pressure drop at our flow
rate of about 13 gph better be less than 0.8 psi. The fuel cube and the
pump each are in the 0.15 to 0.25 psi range depending on flow rates and how
you look at the charts I could dig up. So subtracting those two pressure
drops from the absolute pressure we are down to pressure margin of maybe 0.3
or 0.4 psi for all other fittings, tubing and the selector valve.
So clearly the best two things to do are to insulate everything possible
from additional heating and remove any pressure drops you can from the
suction side of the fuel system.
The benefit to moving the fuel cube to the pressure side of the fuel system
is now the 0.25 psi drop is subtracted off of the gauge and absolute
pressure, so at 26 psi gauge for the same conditions above we would be at
33.9 psi absolute minus the 0.25 psi drop, which is completely
inconsequential.
If I missed any of the comments, please tee them up again.
Bob Newman
N541RV
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel |
Bob,
In your calculation wouldn't you have to include the flow rate of the fuel and
the OAT and the heat absorption of the fuel. Obviously the heat absorption would
be different at various flow rates and would be at it maximum amount at 0
GPH. This would be more indicative of the fuel temp. in the lines during flight.
While the tunnel may be at 40C the fuel will be at a much lower temp while
it is flowing and should provide a more significant margin, assuming it is not
40C outside and the fuel has hot soaked to 40C!
I too insulated my firewall and the floor of the tunnel with fibrefrax and fireproof
black 1/2 foam on top of it. My tunnel is cool to the touch during flight
with the heat off. I have not used the heat yet and will see how it behaves
with the heat valve open. I also firesleeved the steel fuel line out of the
pump
--------
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387544#387544
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel |
I agree that the sending unit NEEDS to be downstream of both fuel pumps.
I think it is instructive to look at EI's install instructions for their
fuel flow instrument, because they are the supplier of the red cube, that
is STC approved on most engines. Either EI or Flowscan can be the
manufacturer, but the install instructions are the same.
Note that for ALL engines with fuel injection that do NOT have a return
line to the fuel tank(that would not include purge lines), they specify
locating the sending unit between the mechanical fuel pump and the fuel
servo.
The only time they specify between the fuel servo and the spider is for
injected engines with a fuel return line. I don't believe anyone is using
such a system on the IO-540. Van's location is directly contrary to EI's
STC approved instructions. Such a deviation would not be approved on a
certified aircraft.
http://www.buy-ei.com/Information/II%20-%20FP-5.pdf
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:06 AM, bill.peyton <peyton.b@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> When we looked at the RV-10 plans it was clear to us that putting it on
> the output side of the mechanical pump was the correct way to go. We also
> have it mounted between the servo and the spider and it is working just
> fine.
>
> --------
> Bill
> WA0SYV
> Aviation Partners, LLC
>
>
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel |
I just check my current Dynon Skyview install manual. It actually says
location of the fuel sending unit, which is the EI FT-60 (they no longer
supply the floscan.) They say the location is up to the builder, and that
it is common for it to be between the electric and mechanical pumps. Their
only recommendation with regard to the firewall is for the EMS unit, not
the fuel flow sending unit. I agree with those that have concern as to the
response of the sending unit to suction of the mechanical pump.
Given that EI is the manufacturer, I would say best performance will be
obtained following their guidance to install between mechanical pump and
fuel servo.
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:35 AM, Pascal <rv10flyer@live.com> wrote:
>
>
> Here is my thought on moving
> 1 Dynon tells installers NOT to install cube FWF for the EMS install
> 2 Vans has theirs in the tunnel and told
> me to not put the cube there
> 3 it isn't broke
>
> The general and Tim both mentioned
> It only is an issue with the fuel pump on and even then not Big issue
>
> 3.2 hour flight yesterday, added 48.2 gallons when I returned because I
> was empty my computer said I would need
> 48.6, it was dark and I don't think I filled it to the top. Regardless
> close enough.
>
> I have no issues, not even with hot starts
> If it isn't an issue why all the work to move it?
>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Opinion please |
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Well, I have applied flame to it and also tried sanding it to see if the
edges show. Both were negative, so I will continue sanding it and
filling where necessary. Thanks to all for your advice and suggestions.
Ed Godfrey
40717
On 11/3/2012 6:49 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
Bill's right, that's most likely an area that never had peel-ply over
it. If it does turn out to still have some on it, you should be able to
get ahold of an edge and tear it off. In that area, it wouldn't hurt to
just leave some peel ply there but that's not really the best practice.
It looks to me like it's just plain glass though.
I'd sand it with some 80 grit and finish it however you like. That's
another way to find the peel ply--if the edges ball up when you sand it,
you'll know it's peel-ply.
I painted some of those hard-to-finish areas with truck bed liner.
Turned out pretty well.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Opinions please |
Its just glass that wasn't peel plied. You would immediately see the fibers of
the peel ply show up white after you hit it with some course 36 or 40 sand paper.
Clean the area up to your satisfaction and move on.
David Clifford
RV-10 Builder
Howell, MI
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Godfrey" <egodfrey@ameritech.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 11:37:00 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Opinions please
Well, I have applied flame to it and also tried sanding it to see if the
edges show. Both were negative, so I will continue sanding it and
filling where necessary. Thanks to all for your advice and suggestions.
Ed Godfrey
40717
On 11/3/2012 6:49 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
Bill's right, that's most likely an area that never had peel-ply over
it. If it does turn out to still have some on it, you should be able to
get ahold of an edge and tear it off. In that area, it wouldn't hurt to
just leave some peel ply there but that's not really the best practice.
It looks to me like it's just plain glass though.
I'd sand it with some 80 grit and finish it however you like. That's
another way to find the peel ply--if the edges ball up when you sand it,
you'll know it's peel-ply.
I painted some of those hard-to-finish areas with truck bed liner.
Turned out pretty well.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | rudder trim RV-10 |
I have a new RV-10 trim kit from Aerosports Products in the
box unopened I will sell for $195.oo, I will pay freight in USA. I built and
fly an RV6 and won this in a drawing at an RV Fly-In.
Contact: jrdial@hal-pc.org
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel |
Bob,
Thanks for your excellent write up. I have a very similar set up and have occasionally
noted the fluctuations in fuel flow just as you have described. I also,
have not been able to run LOP secondary to the engine running too rough.
I don't feel that I have a "hot tunnel" either. Does anybody know if the flow
is an optical pick up or is there a rotor sensing the fuel flow?
I just started my condition inspection and am seriously thinking about moving the
transducer. Might as well do it before I have a real problem in flight or
on take off.
Did you use "hard lines" or did you go with the flex lines and fire sleeve them
in the tunnel?
Thanks
Fred Williams
500 hrs and 4 years.
Sent from my iPad
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | RE: Elevator skin |
Steve, i just finished my elevators today for the RV 10....so I am new at this.
Couple points to this. First, the elevator skin goes on top so that you have
access to four key rivets on the front spar and can buck the two rivets on the
upper skin. After attaching the rib tip assembly you should close the top skin
first because the bottom skin uses two pop rivets that don't requiring bucking.
RV 10 builders.... Short note of thanks. I posted a note a couple months ago
asking for help with a test flight. Not only did I recieve quite a few responses...
Dick Sipp and his wife Vicky stopped by on their way home to Michigan
at the end of September and gave me and my wife a wonderful flight.... I ordered
the 10 the next day. Most of my questions to date have been answered by the
great notes from Matronics as well as the great tips in the building process
found on various web sites. In my build I alumiprep, alodine and two part epoxy
paint... I installed a Ray Allen wire in the rudder and cut in an access plat
for future use.... ALL of these great ideas coming from this team...so THANK
YOU. I hope to learn more...and give back some day... Again, my sincere thanks!
My call sign changed from " builder want-to-be". It is now builder #41393.
Terry. :)
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | rudder trim RV-10 |
Geoff's rudder trim can be adapted to other model RV's. Call Geoff for
details.
bob
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of J. R. (Dick) Dial
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 12:08 PM
Subject: RV10-List: rudder trim RV-10
I have a new RV-10 trim kit from Aerosports Products in the
box unopened I will sell for $195.oo, I will pay freight in USA. I built and
fly an RV6 and won this in a drawing at an RV Fly-In.
Contact: jrdial@hal-pc.org
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel |
It has a rotor.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
www.mavericklsa.com
C: 352-427-0285
O: 352-465-4545
F: 815-377-3694
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 11, 2012, at 2:36 PM, Fred Williams <drfred1960@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Thanks for your excellent write up. I have a very similar set up and have occasionally
noted the fluctuations in fuel flow just as you have described. I
also, have not been able to run LOP secondary to the engine running too rough.
I don't feel that I have a "hot tunnel" either. Does anybody know if the flow
is an optical pick up or is there a rotor sensing the fuel flow?
>
> I just started my condition inspection and am seriously thinking about moving
the transducer. Might as well do it before I have a real problem in flight or
on take off.
>
> Did you use "hard lines" or did you go with the flex lines and fire sleeve them
in the tunnel?
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Fred Williams
> 500 hrs and 4 years.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
>
>
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel |
Bill, You are correct about the flow rate and OAT temp, however, there's
a lot of aluminum tubing, fittings, the pump and fuel cube all collecting
the heat of the tunnel and delivering it to the fuel. Without doing
elaborate measurements, the answer lies somewhere between the OAT temp and
the tunnel temp. The issue I saw was definitely correlated with reduced
fuel flow rates, as soon as I increased the flow rate from 12 to about 13
gph the issue went away.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: bill.peyton
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 9:57 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel
Bob,
In your calculation wouldn't you have to include the flow rate of the fuel
and the OAT and the heat absorption of the fuel. Obviously the heat
absorption would be different at various flow rates and would be at it
maximum amount at 0 GPH. This would be more indicative of the fuel temp. in
the lines during flight. While the tunnel may be at 40C the fuel will be at
a much lower temp while it is flowing and should provide a more significant
margin, assuming it is not 40C outside and the fuel has hot soaked to 40C!
I too insulated my firewall and the floor of the tunnel with fibrefrax and
fireproof black 1/2 foam on top of it. My tunnel is cool to the touch
during flight with the heat off. I have not used the heat yet and will see
how it behaves with the heat valve open. I also firesleeved the steel fuel
line out of the pump
--------
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387544#387544
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel |
Fred, The red fuel cube has a little turbine wheel that spins on some type
of jeweled bearing, I suspect that the turbine then acts on a hall effect
sensor or an optical sensor. The new fuel line I installed from the
electric pump to the bulkhead fitting was a fire sleeved flex line.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Williams
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel
Bob,
Thanks for your excellent write up. I have a very similar set up and have
occasionally noted the fluctuations in fuel flow just as you have described.
I also, have not been able to run LOP secondary to the engine running too
rough. I don't feel that I have a "hot tunnel" either. Does anybody know
if the flow is an optical pick up or is there a rotor sensing the fuel flow?
I just started my condition inspection and am seriously thinking about
moving the transducer. Might as well do it before I have a real problem in
flight or on take off.
Did you use "hard lines" or did you go with the flex lines and fire sleeve
them in the tunnel?
Thanks
Fred Williams
500 hrs and 4 years.
Sent from my iPad
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel |
Bob,
Thank you for the excellent analysis.
1. Bob, What did you use for insulation on the fuel lines in the tunnel??
2. Has anyone used insulation on the heat runs in the tunnel? I'm thinking this
adds a significant amount of heat (with uninsulated SCAT) when the heat is turned
on. If so, what type of insulation did you use??
FWIW, Every fuel flow sender installation I've seen in certified aircraft has had
the sensor mounted ahead of the firewall and usually between the fuel servo
and flow divider.
Great discussion.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387569#387569
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Rigging thoughts |
60 hours on the RV-10 and one long cross country. Here are some recent
tweaks that I=92ve incorporated:
- Added a .063=94 shim under the forward HS spar. This moved
the
elevators to a better trail position in cruise. I had a .040=94 shim in
for
10 hours or so. It helped but was not quite enough. Even with this
larger
shim I have more nose up trim authority than I will ever need. With
anything other than forward CG conditions however the elevators are
still
slightly trailing edge down. This calls for a larger shim but the
.063=94 is
about all I want to do for now as more may force an empennage fairing
adjustment and/or re-hanging the rudder. For those wondering, my W&B is
typical of other RV-10s.
- Right wing slightly heavy. Not so bad that aileron trim
would
not fix, but not right. After some careful measurements I found the
right
aileron inboard hinge placed the aileron slightly high (as compared to
the
outboard hinge and the left aileron). I lowered the inboard side of the
aileron .032=94 or so and this resolved the wing heavy issue.
- Ball not centered. I chased my tail on this for some time.
With
the wheel pants and gear leg fairing off the ball is dead center.
Various
tweaks on the pants and fairings either had the ball =BD out left or
right.
After several tries it is now dead center (and just finished final pant
and
fairing paint today). Some take-aways for those working this issue:
o The fairing adjustments are far more critical than the wheel pants
at
affecting the ball. Set the wheel pants as close as possible, then make
all
adjustments to the fairings after that.
o The Van=92s instructions lead you to think you can mount the wheel
pants
with the plane on the gear. I don=92t recommend this.
o You can never be too accurate setting up to check the fairing rig.
A
1/16=94 move of the fairings trailing edge equals =BC ball or so.
- Don=92t paint the pants or fairings until after you are
flying.
- Add the =93reinforcement glass=94 to the nose gear wheel pant
(there
was a recent thread on this). After mine cracked, I added two layers of
carbon fiber to the inside, ground out the crack and filled it in with
flox,
sanded then two layers of regular glass on the outside over the crack.
This
was followed by the normal =93micro-balloon and sand until you puke=94
routine.
Rigging does matter. I notice a measureable gain in top and cruise
speeds
after these tweaks. At one time while chasing the ball I had the wheel
pants way out of alignment (before I figured out the fairings are the
real
drivers). This caused and easy 5 knot loss.
Carl
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Rib Tip Assembly |
The main skin is outside of the tip rib skin. I've got a lot of pictures
showing where everything goes... inside and out here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/LsXUR2H2FM1my_ggJ8WALNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Gordon Anderson <mregoan@hispeed.ch>wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
> I believe Figure 4 page 9-15 shows the main skin on the outside, which
> worked fine for me.
>
> Gordon Anderson
> 41015 Switzerland
>
> On Nov 10, 2012, at 1:25 PM, Steve Farner wrote:
>
> I'm trying to determine whether the Rib Tip Assembly is attached over or
> under the main elevator skins. Does anyone recall which skin is supposed
> to be on top? I believe the main skin is on top, but the picture in the
> manual appears to show the rib tip skin on top.
>
> Steve Farner
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> *
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Rib Tip Assembly |
Sorry. That link was to an individual picture. This link should take you to
the album. The elevator assembly is abut half way down.
https://picasaweb.google.com/104915858356518723094/RV102Empennage
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Ed Kranz <ed.kranz@gmail.com> wrote:
> The main skin is outside of the tip rib skin. I've got a lot of pictures
> showing where everything goes... inside and out here:
> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/LsXUR2H2FM1my_ggJ8WALNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Gordon Anderson <mregoan@hispeed.ch>wrote:
>
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> I believe Figure 4 page 9-15 shows the main skin on the outside, which
>> worked fine for me.
>>
>> Gordon Anderson
>> 41015 Switzerland
>>
>> On Nov 10, 2012, at 1:25 PM, Steve Farner wrote:
>>
>> I'm trying to determine whether the Rib Tip Assembly is attached over or
>> under the main elevator skins. Does anyone recall which skin is supposed
>> to be on top? I believe the main skin is on top, but the picture in the
>> manual appears to show the rib tip skin on top.
>>
>> Steve Farner
>>
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
>> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
>> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> *
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Red Cube FWF install |
Sean, how did you, or where did you get the fire sleeve to cover the
transducer?
Thx, Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont
On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Seano <sean@braunandco.com> wrote:
> Myron,
>
> Here is a pic of mine. 280 hours with no problems. I fireslleved mine per
> directions but I didn't follow the statement: Do not attach the transducer
> directly to the engine......
>
> Here is some notes from the installation manual.
>
>
> Fuel Flow Transducer Notes
> . NEVER blow through the transducer. Keep the yellow caps on until it is
> installed.
> . The fuel flow transducer(s) should be installed in a straight section of
> your fuel line. (6 straight inches on each side is desirable).
> . The fuel line should not drop down after exiting the transducer.
> . The wires MUST NOT come out of the bottom of transducer. Wires pointing
> up is the best .
> . When assembling fittings into the 1/4" NPT inlet and outlet ports do not
> exceed a torque value of 25 ft.-lbs.
> . Do not use Teflon tape in an aircraft fuel system. Use "Fuel Lube/Ez
> Turn Lubricant"
> . The transducer should be mounted down stream of a fuel filter.
> . Do not attach the transducer directly to the engine to avoid excessive
> vibration.
> . Do not mount the transducer near the exhaust systems or other hot engine
> components.
> . If the transducer is in the engine compartment, it should be covered in
> fire sleeve to protect it from excessive heat.
> . The transducer wires may be trimmed any desired length
> Possible Transducer Placement Locations:
> 1. Between the auxiliary electric boost pump and the engines mechanical
> fuel pump.
> 2. Between fuel injection servo and the distribution block.
> 3. Between the Engine driven pump and the Carburetor
> Note: If your engine is equipped with a fuel return line from the
> carburetor back to the fuel tank you will need to install two flow
> transducers.
> One in the feed line from the fuel pump to the carburetor and one in the
> return line from the carburetor back to the fuel tank. This applies to
> certain Continental engines and Rotax 912(ULS) and 914 engines.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "woxofswa" <woxof@aol.com>
> To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 11:27 AM
> Subject: RV10-List: Red Cube FWF install
>
>
>>
>> Anyone be so kind as to post some pix on their firewall forward red cube
>> installation?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> --------
>> Myron Nelson
>> Mesa, AZ
>> Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse in mostly done,
>> finishing kit in progress.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/**viewtopic.php?p=387382#387382<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387382#387382>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Red Cube FWF install |
Rick,
I bought mine from Aircraft Spruce. The first link is what I clicked on
and then onto the proper size, which I can't currently remember. I
would just measure a rough circumference.
The second link is a new one for me. I would have ordered this if it
was available when I installed mine.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/stratofs.php?clickkey=411
8
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/gbfireslvft.php?clickkey=
4118
I cut the bolt holes through the firesleeve and pushed it on then stuck
the bolts through both. I then connected the fuel lines.
As you can see I mounted mine to the engine which the instructions say
NOT to do for vibration.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Lark
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Red Cube FWF install
Sean, how did you, or where did you get the fire sleeve to cover the
transducer?
Thx, Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont
On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Seano <sean@braunandco.com> wrote:
Myron,
Here is a pic of mine. 280 hours with no problems. I fireslleved
mine per directions but I didn't follow the statement: Do not attach
the transducer directly to the engine......
Here is some notes from the installation manual.
Fuel Flow Transducer Notes
. NEVER blow through the transducer. Keep the yellow caps on until
it is installed.
. The fuel flow transducer(s) should be installed in a straight
section of your fuel line. (6 straight inches on each side is
desirable).
. The fuel line should not drop down after exiting the transducer.
. The wires MUST NOT come out of the bottom of transducer. Wires
pointing up is the best .
. When assembling fittings into the 1/4" NPT inlet and outlet ports
do not exceed a torque value of 25 ft.-lbs.
. Do not use Teflon tape in an aircraft fuel system. Use "Fuel
Lube/Ez Turn Lubricant"
. The transducer should be mounted down stream of a fuel filter.
. Do not attach the transducer directly to the engine to avoid
excessive vibration.
. Do not mount the transducer near the exhaust systems or other hot
engine components.
. If the transducer is in the engine compartment, it should be
covered in fire sleeve to protect it from excessive heat.
. The transducer wires may be trimmed any desired length
Possible Transducer Placement Locations:
1. Between the auxiliary electric boost pump and the engines
mechanical fuel pump.
2. Between fuel injection servo and the distribution block.
3. Between the Engine driven pump and the Carburetor
Note: If your engine is equipped with a fuel return line from the
carburetor back to the fuel tank you will need to install two flow
transducers.
One in the feed line from the fuel pump to the carburetor and one in
the return line from the carburetor back to the fuel tank. This applies
to
certain Continental engines and Rotax 912(ULS) and 914 engines.
----- Original Message ----- From: "woxofswa" <woxof@aol.com>
To: <rv10-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 11:27 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Red Cube FWF install
Anyone be so kind as to post some pix on their firewall forward
red cube installation?
Thanks in advance.
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse in mostly
done, finishing kit in progress.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387382#387382
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Problem with Fuel flow transducer in the tunnel |
My red cube is in the tunnel and has worked great for 95 hours from -10 to 105F
OAT's. I am within .5 gallons at every fuel up. I run boost pump until 1000'
agl and have taken off with pump off flowing 25.5 gph. I occasionally see fuel
pressure drop about 3-5 psi during a 115-120 kt climb to 10500-13500'. The engine
did not show any signs of roughness. If I am running cabin heat my fuel temp
is much lower and still provides plenty of margin. If I was building again
I would intall it fwf, but will not change it as long as it is working properly.
--------
Wayne Gillispie
12/01/2011
TT= 95
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=387586#387586
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|