Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 10:03 AM - Contributions Down By 23%... (Matt Dralle)
1. 12:08 AM - Re: Maximum Climb Angle (Gordon Anderson)
2. 04:27 AM - Manifold Pressure Excursions (Deems Davis)
3. 04:40 AM - Re: Maximum Climb Angle (Werner Schneider)
4. 04:58 AM - Re: Maximum Climb Angle (rv10flyer)
5. 05:42 AM - Re: Manifold Pressure Excursions (Jesse Saint)
6. 07:27 AM - Initial Brake Fluid Qty (Sean Stephens)
7. 07:41 AM - Is there a DAR "standard"? (hotwheels)
8. 07:53 AM - Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? (Jim Combs)
9. 07:54 AM - Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? (Tim Olson)
10. 08:11 AM - Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? (Jim Combs)
11. 08:11 AM - Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? (Bob Leffler)
12. 08:11 AM - Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? (Pascal)
13. 08:16 AM - Re: Initial Brake Fluid Qty (Pascal)
14. 08:38 AM - Re: Initial Brake Fluid Qty (gnolin@sbcglobal.net)
15. 09:30 AM - Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? (hotwheels)
16. 09:47 AM - Re: Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? (Rene Felker)
17. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? (Pascal)
18. 10:46 AM - Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? (Jesse Saint)
19. 12:02 PM - Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? (Bill Watson)
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| Subject: | Contributions Down By 23%... |
Dear Listers,
As of today, Contributions to the Matronics List Fund Raiser are lagging behind
last year at this time by roughly 23%. I have a Fund Raiser each year simply
to cover my operating
costs for the Lists. I *do not* accept any advertising income to support the Lists
and rely solely on the Contributions of members to keep the expenses paid.
I run all of my own servers and they are housed here locally, and the Internet
connection is a commercial-grade, dual T1 connection with public address space.
I also maintain a full
backup system that does nightly backups of all List-related data so that in the
event of a server crash, all of the Lists and the many years of List archive
data could be restored
onto a new server in a matter of hours.
All of this costs a fair amount of money, not to mention a significant amount of
my personal time. I have a Fund Raiser each year to cover these costs and I
ask that members that
feel they receive a benefit from my investments make a modest Contribution each
year to support the continued operation and upgrade of these services.
If you enjoy the Lists, please make a Contribution today. I also offer some incentive
gifts for larger Contribution levels. At the Contribution Web Site, you
can use a credit card,
Paypal, or personal check to show your support for the continuation of these services:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, drop a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Maximum Climb Angle |
Les,
The requirement is from FAR 23.955 paragraph (a). You are looking for
the highest angle of the fuselage to horizontal, which gives the highest
likelihood of uncovering the pickup tube and/or running into vapor lock
issues. This is not the same as the maximum flight path angle the plane
can climb at, which would be just over 10=B0 based on Jesse's numbers.
IIRC airfoils for GA aircraft typically stall somewhere around 12-17=B0
incidence, but this depends a lot on aspect ratio and flap
configuration. I can see two ways of getting the real number. First is
to ask Vans. Second is to persuade one of our bold test pilots out
there to measure the inclination angle of the tunnel cover at onset of
stall in a climb. (Conveniently, there is an iPhone app for measuring
angle;-) ). Good luck with either method!
Tying the tail to the floor with the mains on the ground will give you
just over 15=B0. You could always ask if your inspector would accept
that.
Cheers,
Gordon
On Nov 25, 2012, at 5:23 PM, Les Kearney wrote:
> Hi
>
> One of the things I need to do for my final inspection is ensure fuel
flow with minimum fuel at the maximum climb angle.
>
> Can anyone tell me what the maximum pitch angle is in a climb?
>
> I will assume that the minimum fuel is whatever it takes to allow fuel
to flow at that angle. Anyone have an idea of what that might be?
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Les
>
> #40643 - CGCWZ
>
> So close, oh so close=85..
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Manifold Pressure Excursions |
Kelly & Dave
Thanks for the insight, I'll have to pull the cowl, and check for leaks.
That sounds like the likely scenario. Dave, it could easily be that when I
noticed it the 2nd time that it had already spiked (to 29) and had dropped
to 26 before I noticed it.
thanks again for the insight.
Deems
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Maximum Climb Angle |
Gordon and Les,
here in Switzerland that test is required to be done on 16 degrees angle
of attack, but be aware there might be a 2nd critical angle on a decent
where your tank might unport on a steep decent. Not so much a danger
with the narrower tank of our 10 more of a wider tank like in my
Glastar, or like on of our members found out on his Wheeler Express over
Insbruck.
Cheers Werner
On 26.11.2012 09:07, Gordon Anderson wrote:
> Les,
>
> The requirement is from FAR 23.955 paragraph (a). You are looking for
> the highest angle of the fuselage to horizontal, which gives the highest
> likelihood of uncovering the pickup tube and/or running into vapor lock
> issues. This is not the same as the maximum flight path angle the plane
> can climb at, which would be just over 10 based on Jesse's numbers.
>
> IIRC airfoils for GA aircraft typically stall somewhere around 12-17
> incidence, but this depends a lot on aspect ratio and flap
> configuration. I can see two ways of getting the real number. First is
> to ask Vans. Second is to persuade one of our bold test pilots out
> there to measure the inclination angle of the tunnel cover at onset of
> stall in a climb. (Conveniently, there is an iPhone app for measuring
> angle;-) ). Good luck with either method!
>
> Tying the tail to the floor with the mains on the ground will give you
> just over 15. You could always ask if your inspector would accept that.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Gordon
>
>
> On Nov 25, 2012, at 5:23 PM, Les Kearney wrote:
>
>> Maximum Climb Angle
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> One of the things I need to do for my final inspection is ensure fuel
>> flow with minimum fuel at the maximum climb angle.
>>
>> Can anyone tell me what the maximumpitch angle is in a climb?
>>
>> I will assume that theminimumfuel is whatever it takes to allow fuel
>> to flow at that angle.Anyone have an idea of what that might be?
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Les
>>
>> #40643 - CGCWZ
>>
>> Soclose, oh so close..
>>
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com
>> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com
>> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Maximum Climb Angle |
Minimum fuel for testing on the ground...I believe I may have had 8 oz. remaining
when pump cavitated. Now flying I have had one tank with 5 and one with 7 remaining
after 750 nm/4.5 hr flight. 5 gal per side is my personal minimum. I
did not have to do the test for the FAA Insp, but more for my piece of mind.
--------
Wayne G.
12/01/2011
TT= 95
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388954#388954
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Manifold Pressure Excursions |
With a leak at cruise altitude, you wouldn't read 29". It would be lower bec
ause of altitude. 26" could have been the outside Pressure at your altitude.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse@itecusa.org
www.itecusa.org
www.mavericklsa.com
C: 352-427-0285
O: 352-465-4545
F: 815-377-3694
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 26, 2012, at 7:26 AM, Deems Davis <deemsdavis@cox.net> wrote:
> Kelly & Dave
>
> Thanks for the insight, I'll have to pull the cowl, and check for leaks. T
hat sounds like the likely scenario. Dave, it could easily be that when I no
ticed it the 2nd time that it had already spiked (to 29) and had dropped to 2
6 before I noticed it.
> thanks again for the insight.
>
> Deems
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Initial Brake Fluid Qty |
Getting close to filling up the brake lines. Going to place an order
and was wondering how much fluid it takes to initially fill the lines.
Want to order enough for that and some spare.
Thanks,
-Sean #40303 (attaching all the engine doo dads)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Is there a DAR "standard"? |
I listened closely stories of DAR inspections where the focus was on mirror / flashlight
and compliance with ADs/SBs. So in anticipation, I removed all the access
panels and most of the interior to allow easy access to view and inspect.
Then the DAR showed up and asked why my plane wasn't "flight ready". He wasn't
interested in much past a close look at the engine. He also wanted me to start
the engine and taxi and to demonstrate that the instrumentation is working.
Has anyone read the latest Air & Space? They have a write up of the DAR process
and it reads closer to the mirror / flashlight inspection rather than focus
on paperwork.
Is my experience unique? Have FAA DAR standards / focus changed due to recent NTSB
reports perhaps?
Regards,
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388964#388964
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? |
The DAR that I use, wants to inspect the engine and flight controls. His
request is to have completed a condition inspection and be "Ready for First
flight". He want to have at least one hour of taxi time too. He will look
at the engine closely for proper building practices along with moving all
controls and checking for proper control gap clearances. Safety is his
primary concern.
It's only a hour or so to button up the aircraft for the first flight
anyway.
That's my experience.
Jim C
N312F - 400+ hours
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? |
That was my experience too. His main focus's were:
1) Flight controls free and correct?
2) All proper placarding?
3) Did the engine start and run well?
4) Did the engine and other instrumentation work properly with
the engine on?
5) Did the engine compartment look good? Throttle and
control linkages? No cable ties on engine mounts?
That was the most of it. He just looked in general at the
construction (he had also seen my website), and saw that
it was well constructed in general, so he was most concerned
with the things that would most easy take your life.
I expected more, also, so had my panels all open and
everything, but it wasn't really his goal, and although
I appreciate a good inspection, I felt OK with how it
went...especially since I had gotten prior EAA Tech
counselor visits. I think if you get 3 of those, they
feel much more comfortable on the DAR inspection also.
Tim
On 11/26/2012 9:41 AM, hotwheels wrote:
> <jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com>
>
> I listened closely stories of DAR inspections where the focus was on
> mirror / flashlight and compliance with ADs/SBs. So in anticipation,
> I removed all the access panels and most of the interior to allow
> easy access to view and inspect. Then the DAR showed up and asked why
> my plane wasn't "flight ready". He wasn't interested in much past a
> close look at the engine. He also wanted me to start the engine and
> taxi and to demonstrate that the instrumentation is working. Has
> anyone read the latest Air & Space? They have a write up of the DAR
> process and it reads closer to the mirror / flashlight inspection
> rather than focus on paperwork.
>
> Is my experience unique? Have FAA DAR standards / focus changed due
> to recent NTSB reports perhaps?
>
> Regards, Jay
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388964#388964
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? |
One other comment. I would highly encourage any builder to have at least
three other
builders inspect their airplane just prior to the DAR inspection. Its
amazing how many
items can be found that way.
There are just too many things that one can look at and never see anything
wrong with.
A different person will look and immediately see an issue. We all seem to
have different
views of "our work". Its way too easy to look at the same part repeatedly
and just not see
a problem.
I know of several builders that have encouraged others to review the
airplane and have found
issues that needed to be addressed. It's the safe thing to do.
Jim Combs
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? |
Jay,
It's not my intent to be critical, but sounds like a basic communication issue.
I'm working with FSDO on my inspection and we've already had that conversation.
After hearing stories about the variances in inspections, I point blank
ask the inspector what was his expectations. He was very clear and articulate
on his response. I suspect most DARs would be to.
I'm curious as to what his response was. Did he sign off or did he make you pay
for another trip after you reassemble everything?
I'm fortunate in that I live in an area where the FSDO inspectors have a great
relationship with the experimental community and do perform more thorough inspections
although they aren't required to perform them. I'm in the camp that
you can't have enough eyes review you work.
Bob
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 26, 2012, at 10:41 AM, "hotwheels" <jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com> wrote:
I listened closely stories of DAR inspections where the focus was on mirror / flashlight
and compliance with ADs/SBs. So in anticipation, I removed all the access
panels and most of the interior to allow easy access to view and inspect.
Then the DAR showed up and asked why my plane wasn't "flight ready". He wasn't
interested in much past a close look at the engine. He also wanted me to start
the engine and taxi and to demonstrate that the instrumentation is working.
Has anyone read the latest Air & Space? They have a write up of the DAR process
and it reads closer to the mirror / flashlight inspection rather than focus
on paperwork.
Is my experience unique? Have FAA DAR standards / focus changed due to recent NTSB
reports perhaps?
Regards,
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388964#388964
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? |
Jay;
I have heard of your level of inspections. (Fortunately) my DAR, who
happened to be the TC along the way, expected EVERY panel removed, he knew
the plane very well as a result of serving as my Technical Counselor, yet
still wanted to inspect everything. My inspection went over 2 hours, he
looked at every wire harness, crawled into the tail to verify everything was
secure etc. I KNEW my plane was ready but after that inspection there was no
doubt on that first flight. Anyone who grabs a flashlight and says you're
ready is basically doing a semi Annual inspection and a disservice to you-
ask around and get a good DAR- one who built a RV preferably and knows what
to look for in RV's.
Must be me however, since I also spent 3-4 hours at my FSDO doing a
dissertation on why I am qualified for a repairman's cert. There are some
locally that had a quick DAR inspection, got a huge flyoff area and the FSDO
asked to see a picture or two and if the person "certified" they built more
than 51% and 15 minutes later they had the temp repairman's cert.
It really is up to the individual DAR and your local FSDO how it will work
out for you.
Best of success
-----Original Message-----
From: hotwheels
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 7:41 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Is there a DAR "standard"?
I listened closely stories of DAR inspections where the focus was on mirror
/ flashlight and compliance with ADs/SBs. So in anticipation, I removed all
the access panels and most of the interior to allow easy access to view and
inspect. Then the DAR showed up and asked why my plane wasn't "flight
ready". He wasn't interested in much past a close look at the engine. He
also wanted me to start the engine and taxi and to demonstrate that the
instrumentation is working. Has anyone read the latest Air & Space? They
have a write up of the DAR process and it reads closer to the mirror /
flashlight inspection rather than focus on paperwork.
Is my experience unique? Have FAA DAR standards / focus changed due to
recent NTSB reports perhaps?
Regards,
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388964#388964
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Initial Brake Fluid Qty |
not much at all. I bought a small bottle from AS and still had 1/2 of the
fluid left when I filled it all and one side that had an air pocket, twice.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Stephens
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 7:26 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Initial Brake Fluid Qty
Getting close to filling up the brake lines. Going to place an order
and was wondering how much fluid it takes to initially fill the lines.
Want to order enough for that and some spare.
Thanks,
-Sean #40303 (attaching all the engine doo dads)
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Initial Brake Fluid Qty |
I filled my brakes a few months ago. It took about a quart, spills and all.
RV10 soon
AKA
G. Hank Nolin, P.E.
832-640-6284
www.salestaxexemptions.com
-
"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure--aviation offers it all."
Charles A. Lindbergh
--- On Mon, 11/26/12, Sean Stephens <sean@stephensville.com> wrote:
From: Sean Stephens <sean@stephensville.com>
Subject: RV10-List: Initial Brake Fluid Qty
Getting close to filling up the brake lines.- Going to place an order and
was wondering how much fluid it takes to initially fill the lines.- Want
to order enough for that and some spare.
Thanks,
-Sean #40303 (attaching all the engine doo dads)
le, List Admin.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? |
No extra charge for the DAR return trip. Fortunately for me, I've been the lucky
recipient of numerous EAA Tech Counselor visits and help from fellow builders,
but it would have been nice to use a person that was more technically thorough.
With regards to the communication between builder and DAR... It sounds like
your mileage may vary, so it's important to keep asking questions to set equal
expectations for the visit.
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388975#388975
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? |
This will be of no help...but I worked with my DAR ahead of time. What he
wanted to see was..
1. Airplane ready to be signed off
2. Engine had been run
3. All access panels off...which in an -10 means the inside is all apart
4. I asked and he said it was ok that I had the doors off.
His inspection was not very thorough, but I did have an A&P/IA there for the
inspection. Somebody he knew.
He took pictures of all the things he looked at...
Rene' Felker
N423CF
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of hotwheels
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 10:30 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Is there a DAR "standard"?
No extra charge for the DAR return trip. Fortunately for me, I've been the
lucky recipient of numerous EAA Tech Counselor visits and help from fellow
builders, but it would have been nice to use a person that was more
technically thorough. With regards to the communication between builder and
DAR... It sounds like your mileage may vary, so it's important to keep
asking questions to set equal expectations for the visit.
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388975#388975
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? |
I've attached what my DAR gave me before he showed up. It was the checklist
he would use. Regardless of what the DAR does, you can use this for your own
reference and prep.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rene Felker
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 9:46 AM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Is there a DAR "standard"?
This will be of no help...but I worked with my DAR ahead of time. What he
wanted to see was..
1. Airplane ready to be signed off
2. Engine had been run
3. All access panels off...which in an -10 means the inside is all apart
4. I asked and he said it was ok that I had the doors off.
His inspection was not very thorough, but I did have an A&P/IA there for the
inspection. Somebody he knew.
He took pictures of all the things he looked at...
Rene' Felker
N423CF
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of hotwheels
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 10:30 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Is there a DAR "standard"?
No extra charge for the DAR return trip. Fortunately for me, I've been the
lucky recipient of numerous EAA Tech Counselor visits and help from fellow
builders, but it would have been nice to use a person that was more
technically thorough. With regards to the communication between builder and
DAR... It sounds like your mileage may vary, so it's important to keep
asking questions to set equal expectations for the visit.
Jay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388975#388975
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? |
I have had and observed probably 10 DAR inspections and they are all different.
In my experience, most of them focus on the paperwork. I have only seen one say
that he can't sign off a plane that is not assembled, and that was because
the plane had a leading edge landing light and the lens wasn't installed. The
plane can't fly without the cowl installed, but I can't imagine he wanted to have
that on. You can fly with the access panels inside the plane off, but not
the panels outside. It seems like different DAR's have different pet peeves. Some
want everything labeled on the panel. Some couldn't care less what is labeled.
Some want to see the panel lit up and some don't. Some look into an inspection
plate to see the rivets and some don't. Some are really picky about the
engine and some just verify that it has a propeller attached. Some check controls
to see if they are correct and hit the stops, some don't even look at them.
I have had all of them say that they would like the engine to have run and the
plane to have done a taxi test before the inspection, but have never had one
ask to see the engine run. I guess it's pretty hard to fly without having the
engine running. Most want to see some placard on the fuel tanks. Usually, as
others have said, it was paperwork. Some just say, "well, it looks like a plane
to me. Do you think it will fly? Let's fill out the paperwork." I have never
ever had one ask about AD's or SB's.
In short, YMWV.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
On Nov 26, 2012, at 10:41 AM, hotwheels <jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I listened closely stories of DAR inspections where the focus was on mirror /
flashlight and compliance with ADs/SBs. So in anticipation, I removed all the
access panels and most of the interior to allow easy access to view and inspect.
Then the DAR showed up and asked why my plane wasn't "flight ready". He wasn't
interested in much past a close look at the engine. He also wanted me to
start the engine and taxi and to demonstrate that the instrumentation is working.
Has anyone read the latest Air & Space? They have a write up of the DAR process
and it reads closer to the mirror / flashlight inspection rather than focus
on paperwork.
>
> Is my experience unique? Have FAA DAR standards / focus changed due to recent
NTSB reports perhaps?
>
> Regards,
> Jay
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=388964#388964
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Is there a DAR "standard"? |
In retrospect, it is pretty clear to me that "it all depends".
Talking to the DAR, it was pretty clear that his goal was to make one
visit and to approve the project if at all possible. The focus on
paperwork is an absolute prereq to achieving that goal. I'd definitely
ask the DAR beforehand exactly what they'd like to see and how things
should be set up.
I had worked with a TC and did the final assembly in a maintenance
hangar with an AP/AI working nearby. My guess is that the DAR asked
around for some pre-assessment from the TC and/or mechanic. I'm sure no
red flags were raised so the DAR was focused on successful approval.
I had everything opened up and he was prepared with mirrors and lights.
After an hour or so he seemed to conclude (correctly) that everything
had been gone over in detail, by several different people, so he stopped
trying to look at "everything" and instead focused on the paperwork and
legalities.
Getting the repairman cert at the FSDO was interesting. The inspector I
scheduled with wasn't around and no one was expecting me. Knowing
nothing about me or the plane, the inspector chatted me up while
browsing the docs. It was very challenging because I couldn't figure
out where the questions were coming from. At some point, he concluded
that I did do the 51% and issued the certificate.
In the end, I would just recommend talking to the DAR and/or FSDO person
beforehand. Build some rapport if you can but at least find out what
they want to see and do. In my estimation, if there's a single
"standard", it's not in wide use.
Go Jay!!
Bill Watson
On 11/26/2012 10:41 AM, hotwheels wrote:
>
> I listened closely stories of DAR inspections where the focus was on mirror /
flashlight and compliance with ADs/SBs. So in anticipation, I removed all the
access panels and most of the interior to allow easy access to view and inspect.
Then the DAR showed up and asked why my plane wasn't "flight ready". He wasn't
interested in much past a close look at the engine. He also wanted me to
start the engine and taxi and to demonstrate that the instrumentation is working.
Has anyone read the latest Air & Space? They have a write up of the DAR process
and it reads closer to the mirror / flashlight inspection rather than focus
on paperwork.
>
> Is my experience unique? Have FAA DAR standards / focus changed due to recent
NTSB reports perhaps?
>
> Regards,
> Jay
>
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