Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:35 AM - Kit for sale (Darton Steve)
2. 11:42 AM - Re: Kit for sale (Rob Kermanj)
3. 06:33 PM - Re: Fuel pump use (William Curtis)
4. 06:51 PM - Re: Fuel pump use (Kelly McMullen)
5. 07:27 PM - Re: Fuel pump use (William Curtis)
6. 07:37 PM - Re: Fuel pump use (Kelly McMullen)
7. 08:27 PM - Re: Fuel pump use (davidsoutpost@comcast.net)
8. 09:41 PM - Re: Fuel pump use (William Curtis)
Message 1
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To all:=0A-=0AI have decided to list my kit 40212 for sale, it includes a
completed tail and wings completed to the bottom skins. All workmanship is
first rate. I'm located near KSLC. Email me for inquiries.=0A-=0AI also
have some assorted tools for sale:=0APnumatic squeezer & assorted dies=0AHa
nd squeezer=0AC frame=0ARivet gun &-accessories=0APnumatic drill & bits,
reamers etc=0APnumatic sealant gun & accessories=0ASealant spoons=0AFull se
t of Cogsdill deburring tools
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Kit for sale |
I am interested in the squeezer and c frame. Please contact me off line.
Rob Kermanj
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 9, 2013, at 1:34 PM, Darton Steve <sfdarton@yahoo.com> wrote:
> To all:
>
> I have decided to list my kit 40212 for sale, it includes a completed tail
and wings completed to the bottom skins. All workmanship is first rate. I'm
located near KSLC. Email me for inquiries.
>
> I also have some assorted tools for sale:
> Pnumatic squeezer & assorted dies
> Hand squeezer
> C frame
> Rivet gun & accessories
> Pnumatic drill & bits, reamers etc
> Pnumatic sealant gun & accessories
> Sealant spoons
> Full set of Cogsdill deburring tools
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump use |
Well, not quite Kelly. Look at the POH for the Cessna Cardinal RG for example.
No fuel injected Lycoming powered high wing Cessna aircraft including the Cardinal
RG have in their checklist, boost pump on takeoff and landing. The high
wing is what makes the difference. Having gravity to help supply fuel to the
engine, I think makes the difference. Boost pump on during takeoff and landing
is normal procedure for low wing Lycoming powered aircraft but I have yet to
see this in a POH for a high wing fuel injected Cessna.
W. Curtis
On Jan 8, 2013, at 15:22, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
> You are correct. Every Lycoming powered fuel injected aircraft I have worked
on, with Bendix RSA injection called for pump on for takeoff and landing.
> Cessna 210 and Bonanza have Continental injection system that is very sensitive
to unmetered pressure coming into the fuel servo. Adding boost pump upsets
the mixture calibration. Yes, boost pump off in climb is pilot's discretion for
ability to respond if engine falters because mechanical pump failed.
> FWIW a 210 was totaled at my airport on New Year's eve because it appears mechanical
pump failed at 100 ft. With most any injected engine it takes 5-10 seconds
for fire to relight after a fuel delivery interruption. Fortunately they
made a open soft field about 40 degrees off centerline and walked away uninjured.
> Kelly
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump use |
Bill, I don't remember what the C177RG POH said, as I haven't flown one for
30 years*. However, I doubt the head pressure from the wings is enough to
produce the 15 psi minimum that the fuel servo needs to produce full power.
I'd prefer to have it on for takeoff even in a C177 RG or C172 RG or any
other Lycoming powered and injected Cessna. YMMV.
*I decided one main actuator rod failure in flight was enough gear problems
in a system design that has that as a moderately common failure with no
backup method.
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:32 PM, William Curtis <wwc4@njit.edu> wrote:
>
> Well, not quite Kelly. Look at the POH for the Cessna Cardinal RG for
> example. No fuel injected Lycoming powered high wing Cessna aircraft
> including the Cardinal RG have in their checklist, boost pump on takeoff
> and landing. The high wing is what makes the difference. Having gravity to
> help supply fuel to the engine, I think makes the difference. Boost pump
> on during takeoff and landing is normal procedure for low wing Lycoming
> powered aircraft but I have yet to see this in a POH for a high wing fuel
> injected Cessna.
>
> W. Curtis
>
>
> On Jan 8, 2013, at 15:22, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > You are correct. Every Lycoming powered fuel injected aircraft I have
> worked on, with Bendix RSA injection called for pump on for takeoff and
> landing.
> > Cessna 210 and Bonanza have Continental injection system that is very
> sensitive to unmetered pressure coming into the fuel servo. Adding boost
> pump upsets the mixture calibration. Yes, boost pump off in climb is
> pilot's discretion for ability to respond if engine falters because
> mechanical pump failed.
> > FWIW a 210 was totaled at my airport on New Year's eve because it
> appears mechanical pump failed at 100 ft. With most any injected engine it
> takes 5-10 seconds for fire to relight after a fuel delivery interruption.
> Fortunately they made a open soft field about 40 degrees off centerline and
> walked away uninjured.
> > Kelly
> >
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump use |
Kelly,
Yes gravity alone will not provide the full 15 PSI required for maximum powe
r but it is usually enough to provide partial power and prevent fuel starvat
ion and give enough time to then turn on the boost pump in the event of a me
chanical fuel pump failure. See page 4-8 in the POH below.
www.nerv10.com/manuals/Cessna/C177RG_POH_1975.pdf
The main gear actuator rod end with the zero fitting is a known failure poin
t in the Cardinal RG gear system which is why I had it replaced with the upd
ated non-zerk rod end in the first year of owner ship back in 1998. Once you
identify and remediate the few known failure points of the Cardinal RG gear
system, it is quite reliable. In 14 years of ownership, I have had very li
ttle issues with the gear system and no "incidents."
W. Curtis.
On Jan 9, 2013, at 21:51, Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bill, I don't remember what the C177RG POH said, as I haven't flown one fo
r 30 years*. However, I doubt the head pressure from the wings is enough to p
roduce the 15 psi minimum that the fuel servo needs to produce full power. I
'd prefer to have it on for takeoff even in a C177 RG or C172 RG or any othe
r Lycoming powered and injected Cessna. YMMV.
>
> *I decided one main actuator rod failure in flight was enough gear problem
s in a system design that has that as a moderately common failure with no ba
ckup method.
>
> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:32 PM, William Curtis <wwc4@njit.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Well, not quite Kelly. Look at the POH for the Cessna Cardinal RG for exa
mple. No fuel injected Lycoming powered high wing Cessna aircraft including
the Cardinal RG have in their checklist, boost pump on takeoff and landing.
The high wing is what makes the difference. Having gravity to help supply f
uel to the engine, I think makes the difference. Boost pump on during takeo
ff and landing is normal procedure for low wing Lycoming powered aircraft bu
t I have yet to see this in a POH for a high wing fuel injected Cessna.
>>
>> W. Curtis
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump use |
Yeah, the 1975 gear is much better than the 1971 that I had a failure
on. My recollection from days of reading CFO Digest, none of the main
gear actuator rod ends were truly free of failures, just the originals
with zerks were much worse. A friend has one with the old
turbo-normalizer STC. Watching him work on it and struggle with all the
Cessna "features" I'll stick with the RV-10.
There are times on takeoff that partial power would be a very bad thing,
so I'll use the boost, thank you, high wing or low.
On 1/9/2013 8:26 PM, William Curtis wrote:
> Kelly,
>
> Yes gravity alone will not provide the full 15 PSI required for
> maximum power but it is usually enough to provide partial power and
> prevent fuel starvation and give enough time to then turn on the boost
> pump in the event of a mechanical fuel pump failure. See page 4-8 in
> the POH below.
>
> www.nerv10.com/
> <http://www.nerv10.com/>*manual*s/*Cessna*/C*177RG*_*POH*_1975.*pdf*
> *
> *
> The main gear actuator rod end with the zero fitting is a known
> failure point in the Cardinal RG gear system which is why I had it
> replaced with the updated non-zerk rod end in the first year of owner
> ship back in 1998. Once you identify and remediate the few known
> failure points of the Cardinal RG gear system, it is quite reliable.
> In 14 years of ownership, I have had very little issues with the gear
> system and no "incidents."
>
> W. Curtis.
>
> On Jan 9, 2013, at 21:51, Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com
> <mailto:apilot2@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Bill, I don't remember what the C177RG POH said, as I haven't flown
>> one for 30 years*. However, I doubt the head pressure from the wings
>> is enough to produce the 15 psi minimum that the fuel servo needs to
>> produce full power. I'd prefer to have it on for takeoff even in a
>> C177 RG or C172 RG or any other Lycoming powered and injected Cessna.
>> YMMV.
>>
>> *I decided one main actuator rod failure in flight was enough gear
>> problems in a system design that has that as a moderately common
>> failure with no backup method.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:32 PM, William Curtis <wwc4@njit.edu
>> <mailto:wwc4@njit.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> <mailto:wwc4@njit.edu>>
>>
>> Well, not quite Kelly. Look at the POH for the Cessna Cardinal RG
>> for example. No fuel injected Lycoming powered high wing Cessna
>> aircraft including the Cardinal RG have in their checklist, boost
>> pump on takeoff and landing. The high wing is what makes the
>> difference. Having gravity to help supply fuel to the engine, I
>> think makes the difference. Boost pump on during takeoff and
>> landing is normal procedure for low wing Lycoming powered
>> aircraft but I have yet to see this in a POH for a high wing fuel
>> injected Cessna.
>>
>> W. Curtis
>>
> *
>
>
> *
-----
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump use |
I agree with Kelly on this. Why would anyone not want to minimize the risk's at
any phase of flight when it is available?
David Clifford
RV-10 Builder
Howell, MI
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly McMullen" <kellym@aviating.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2013 10:36:47 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel pump use
Yeah, the 1975 gear is much better than the 1971 that I had a failure
on. My recollection from days of reading CFO Digest, none of the main
gear actuator rod ends were truly free of failures, just the originals
with zerks were much worse. A friend has one with the old
turbo-normalizer STC. Watching him work on it and struggle with all the
Cessna "features" I'll stick with the RV-10.
There are times on takeoff that partial power would be a very bad thing,
so I'll use the boost, thank you, high wing or low.
On 1/9/2013 8:26 PM, William Curtis wrote:
> Kelly,
>
> Yes gravity alone will not provide the full 15 PSI required for
> maximum power but it is usually enough to provide partial power and
> prevent fuel starvation and give enough time to then turn on the boost
> pump in the event of a mechanical fuel pump failure. See page 4-8 in
> the POH below.
>
> www.nerv10.com/
> <http://www.nerv10.com/>*manual*s/*Cessna*/C*177RG*_*POH*_1975.*pdf*
> *
> *
> The main gear actuator rod end with the zero fitting is a known
> failure point in the Cardinal RG gear system which is why I had it
> replaced with the updated non-zerk rod end in the first year of owner
> ship back in 1998. Once you identify and remediate the few known
> failure points of the Cardinal RG gear system, it is quite reliable.
> In 14 years of ownership, I have had very little issues with the gear
> system and no "incidents."
>
> W. Curtis.
>
> On Jan 9, 2013, at 21:51, Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com
> <mailto:apilot2@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Bill, I don't remember what the C177RG POH said, as I haven't flown
>> one for 30 years*. However, I doubt the head pressure from the wings
>> is enough to produce the 15 psi minimum that the fuel servo needs to
>> produce full power. I'd prefer to have it on for takeoff even in a
>> C177 RG or C172 RG or any other Lycoming powered and injected Cessna.
>> YMMV.
>>
>> *I decided one main actuator rod failure in flight was enough gear
>> problems in a system design that has that as a moderately common
>> failure with no backup method.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:32 PM, William Curtis <wwc4@njit.edu
>> <mailto:wwc4@njit.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> <mailto:wwc4@njit.edu>>
>>
>> Well, not quite Kelly. Look at the POH for the Cessna Cardinal RG
>> for example. No fuel injected Lycoming powered high wing Cessna
>> aircraft including the Cardinal RG have in their checklist, boost
>> pump on takeoff and landing. The high wing is what makes the
>> difference. Having gravity to help supply fuel to the engine, I
>> think makes the difference. Boost pump on during takeoff and
>> landing is normal procedure for low wing Lycoming powered
>> aircraft but I have yet to see this in a POH for a high wing fuel
>> injected Cessna.
>>
>> W. Curtis
>>
> *
>
>
> *
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel pump use |
The bottom line is to do what the airframe manufacturer suggest in the POH. A
s a builder you are the airframe manufacturer.
In addition to what may happen in case of a mechanical pump failure, there c
ould be un-intended consequences of running a pump when it is not stated in t
he POH. The reason Lycoming leaves it up to the airframe manufacturer is tha
t engine performance is also dependent on the fuel system plumbing. In most
Cessna fuel injected high wing, the boost pump is "in line" with the mechan
ical pump and others it is "In parallel." Running a pump when it is not sta
ted can cause un-intended behaviors such as over rich mixture that may lead t
o reduced power.
In the case of the RV10, I think the Vans suggested route of running the pum
p during takeoff and landings should be followed. If you are in a high wing C
essna however, the boost pump should not be run during takeoff and landings.
William
RV10 - 40237
On Jan 9, 2013, at 23:26, davidsoutpost@comcast.net wrote:
> I agree with Kelly on this. Why would anyone not want to minimize the ris
k's at any phase of flight when it is available?
>
> David Clifford
>
> RV-10 Builder
> Howell, MI
>
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