---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/15/13: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:14 AM - Re: Another RV-10 down? (Wayne Edgerton) 2. 06:31 AM - Re: Oh no, another new guy... (Spudnut) 3. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps (Bill Watson) 4. 07:25 AM - Re: Oh no, another new guy... (Ron Zeppin) 5. 07:26 AM - Re: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps (n801bh@netzero.com) 6. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps (Bill Watson) 7. 10:28 AM - Re: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps (Linn) 8. 04:04 PM - Re: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps (n801bh@netzero.com) 9. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps (Kelly McMullen) 10. 07:21 PM - Cowl Replacement Update (Robin Marks) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Another RV-10 down? From: Wayne Edgerton I spoke with Sue at Aerosport several weeks back about another issue but she told me with the price they were being charged for the IO540 parts from Lycoming they could no longer be competitive with Vans so they've stopped offering it. If you go to their web site aerosportpower.com and select engines you'll see they no longer offer the IO 540. Wayne Edgerton N602WT Sent from my Iphone Wayne ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:18 AM PST US From: "Spudnut" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oh no, another new guy... If you make it to Yuma call me (928-210-9123 cell) and I'll show you a RV-8 and a Murphy Rebel under construction. Also I have a RV-10 and there is an RV-9A and an RV-12 here. (The Rebel kit makes you really appreciate Vans.) Albert Gardner RV-10 N991RV Yuma, AZ Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Zeppin Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 12:46 AM Subject: RV10-List: Oh no, another new guy... Greetings all! I am embarking on this madcap ride known as aviation and the RV-10 is at the top of my short list. I'm fast approaching middle age, have wanted to fly since I was a child like just about every one else who gets the PPL. My wife is finishing up her Master's degree, and when she's done, I'll be jumping into getting my PPL. I live in San Tan Valley, AZ... a southeast suburb of Phoenix. After checking the Van's site, I was hoping to find a Van's club in Arizona, but they don't list one. Any builders/owners on here that live in Arizona? I would VERY much like to hook up with you to take a look at the aircraft in any stage of completion. I drive all over the southern part of the state, so pretty much anywhere from Phoenix south to the border would be withing my driving range. I also get up to Pinetop/Showlow on a semi-regular basis. I'm a very hands on person, started working on cars at 15, was into drag racing for several years, and have been a field service tech for over 20 years now. Building my own plane seems like the ultimate adventure! I'd love to hear from anyone in the area (or anyone in general!) about the RV-10, and GA in general. Cheers! Ron ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:27 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps I just started doing that (running less oil) with some apparent success. I haven't logged the numbers yet but my low temp warnings stopped during the last winter time flight. Actually, I've done 2 things trying to bring the oil temps up into the 165 to 200F range during cruise. I have the problem in both summer and winter. I don't have the cooling air valve. So first, I fabricated a simple plate to block some cooling air going to the oil cooler. The plate is installed where the hose exits the plenum. It's slotted so I can adjust it on the ground. Blocking about 1/3rd of the flow, most but not all low temp alarms (i.e. <165F) were suppressed. Then, during my last oil change, instead of putting in 9 Qts (to get 8Qts on the dip stick), I put in 7 Qts. During my last flight, I didn't get any low temp alarms. I'm considering going to 6 next time. My testing has not been all that rigorous. I'm just trying to get to the point where I don't get any low temp or high temp alarms during cruise. I figure that I will accept temps that fall slightly outside the 165-200 range during hot day climbs and low power descents. As I understand it, the objective on the low side is to burn off moisture, and on the high side to indicate proper engine cooling and avoid oil breakdown - but I'm not sure at what temps the oil starts to breakdown. Anyway, I think I'm where I want to be for the winter and I'll adjust as required when moving to the warmer months. Bill On 1/15/2013 1:53 AM, woxofswa wrote: > > This thread reminded me of something. Years ago (decades actually), I knew a mechanic who swore by running two quarts lower oil quantity as a baseline in winter than summer. I never thought it completely through because I was just a renter in those days, but it might make a difference. > > -------- > Myron Nelson > Mesa, AZ > Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. Finishing kit and FWF kit in progress. > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:58 AM PST US From: Ron Zeppin Subject: Re: RV10-List: Oh no, another new guy... HI Albert. I do get to Yuma on occasion, thought I might be heading there this morning, but my co-worked is going to take those service calls and some PM's he has and do them tomorrow/Thursday. I'll definitely give you a shout next time I go. Yuma is very random for me. Tucson is a weekly thing! ;) Thanks VERY much for the offer! I will take you up on it when I get out there next! Ron On 1/15/2013 7:30 AM, Spudnut wrote: > > If you make it to Yuma call me (928-210-9123 cell) and I'll show you a RV-8 > and a Murphy Rebel under construction. Also I have a RV-10 and there is an > RV-9A and an RV-12 here. (The Rebel kit makes you really appreciate Vans.) > Albert Gardner > RV-10 N991RV > Yuma, AZ > Do not archive > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Zeppin > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 12:46 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: Oh no, another new guy... > > > Greetings all! I am embarking on this madcap ride known as aviation and the > RV-10 is at the top of my short list. > I'm fast approaching middle age, have wanted to fly since I was a child like > just about every one else who gets the PPL. > My wife is finishing up her Master's degree, and when she's done, I'll be > jumping into getting my PPL. > I live in San Tan Valley, AZ... a southeast suburb of Phoenix. After > checking the Van's site, I was hoping to find a Van's club in Arizona, but > they don't list one. Any builders/owners on here that live in Arizona? > I would VERY much like to hook up with you to take a look at the aircraft in > any stage of completion. > I drive all over the southern part of the state, so pretty much anywhere > from Phoenix south to the border would be withing my driving range. I also > get up to Pinetop/Showlow on a semi-regular basis. > I'm a very hands on person, started working on cars at 15, was into drag > racing for several years, and have been a field service tech for over 20 > years now. Building my own plane seems like the ultimate adventure! > > I'd love to hear from anyone in the area (or anyone in general!) about the > RV-10, and GA in general. > > Cheers! > > Ron > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:11 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps IIRC.... The Lycoming engines have their oil temperature sending units p laced after the oil cooler, not in the sump. Where in my opinion, it bel ongs.. So , when you see 160 f as your oil temp, it is actually close to 200 in the bottom of the sump. More then enough to boil off the moistu re you guys are concerned with if your flight is 30 minutes or more. My .02 cents worth....... Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps I just started doing that (running less oil) with some apparent success. I haven't logged the numbers yet but my low temp warnings stopped during the last winter time flight. Actually, I've done 2 things trying to bring the oil temps up into the 165 to 200F range during cruise. I have the problem in both summer and winter. I don't have the cooling air valve. So first, I fabricated a simple plate to block some cooling air going to the oil cooler. The plate is installed where the hose exits the plenum. It's slotted so I can adjust it on the ground. Blocking about 1/3rd of the flow, most but not all low temp alarms (i.e. <165F) were suppressed. Then, during my last oil change, instead of putting in 9 Qts (to get 8Qts on the dip stick), I put in 7 Qts. During my last flight, I didn't get any low temp alarms. I'm considering going to 6 next time. My testing has not been all that rigorous. I'm just trying to get to the point where I don't get any low temp or high temp alarms during cruise. I figure that I will accept temps that fall slightly outside the 165-200 range during hot day climbs and low power descents. As I understand it, the objective on the low side is to burn off moisture, and on the high side to indicate proper engine cooling and avoid oil breakdown - but I'm not sure at what temps the oil starts to breakdown. Anyway, I think I'm where I want to be for the winter and I'll adjust as required when moving to the warmer months. Bill On 1/15/2013 1:53 AM, woxofswa wrote: > > This thread reminded me of something. Years ago (decades actually), I knew a mechanic who swore by running two quarts lower oil quantity as a baseline in winter than summer. I never thought it completely through because I was just a renter in those days, but it might make a differenc e. > > -------- > Myron Nelson > Mesa, AZ > Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. Finishi ng kit and FWF kit in progress. > > ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ____________________________________________________________ Overstock iPads - $30.93! Save big in overstock auctions: 32GB iPads just $30.93! Limit 1/day. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/50f574db17fa474da238fst03vuc ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:32 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps Understood. My presumption is that the temperature ranges quoted in the O-540, IO-540 Series Operator's Manual take the sending unit location into account. The manual states: Oil Temperature: The maximum permissible oil temperature is 245F (118C). For maximum engine life, desired oil Temperature should be maintained between 165F (73.8C) and 200F(93.3C) in level flight cruise conditions So I set my alarms (bar graph changes to red and a msg is generated on the GRT) at 165 and 200 with the understanding that the actual temps are different throughout the oil system. The only unknown here is the accuracy of the sender. I guess the sender could be immersed in some heated oil and the reading compared with a calibrated gauge of some sort. I'll probably never do it but I have had an oil temp sender fail already (reads zero or very low). On 1/15/2013 10:24 AM, n801bh@netzero.com wrote: > > IIRC.... The Lycoming engines have their oil temperature sending units > placed *after *the oil cooler, not in the sump. Where in my opinion, > it belongs.. So , when you see 160 f as your oil temp, it is actually > close to 200 in the bottom of the sump. More then enough to boil off > the moisture you guys are concerned with if your flight is 30 minutes > or more. My .02 cents worth....... > > Ben Haas > N801BH > www.haaspowerair.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:28:15 AM PST US From: Linn Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps On 1/15/2013 12:46 PM, Bill Watson wrote: snip > > The only unknown here is the accuracy of the sender. I guess the > sender could be immersed in some heated oil and the reading compared > with a calibrated gauge of some sort. use boiling water .... 212 @ sea level ........ or calculate the boiling point here: http://www.csgnetwork.com/h2oboilcalc.html Those single cup water heaters do an excellent job. Linn > I'll probably never do it but I have had an oil temp sender fail > already (reads zero or very low). > > > On 1/15/2013 10:24 AM, n801bh@netzero.com wrote: >> >> IIRC.... The Lycoming engines have their oil temperature sending >> units placed *after *the oil cooler, not in the sump. Where in my >> opinion, it belongs.. So , when you see 160 f as your oil temp, it is >> actually close to 200 in the bottom of the sump. More then enough to >> boil off the moisture you guys are concerned with if your flight is >> 30 minutes or more. My .02 cents worth....... >> >> Ben Haas >> N801BH >> www.haaspowerair.com > > * > > > * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:24 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps Bill... I had a rather interesting discussion with a Lycoming rep at OSH a few years back on this exact topic..... I posed the question of " sup pose a builder had a very efficient oil cooler and it removed 60 -70 F h eat from the oil and the sending unit was positioned at the outflow of t he cooler... Are Lycomings built to run with 300f+ degree oil...... He t hought about it for a minute and told me the placement for the sending u nit is based on the airframe manufacturers choice and most all of them spec it to be on the discharge side of the oil cooler to mask improper b reathing cowlings.... I thought that was strange as Lycoming warrenties cooked motors, not the plane maker.... He agreed it was a poor choice f or the location of the sending unit... The take home message is when you guys see oil temps of 245f on climb ou t you can bet the actual temp is pushing 300 degrees in the motor itself .... YUCK... Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps Understood. My presumption is that the temperature ranges quoted in the O-540, IO-540 Series Operator's Manual take the sending unit location i nto account. The manual states: Oil Temperature: The maximum permissible oil temperature is 245F (118C) . For maximum engine life, desired oil Temperature should be maintained between 165F (73.8C) and 200F(93.3C) in level flight cruise conditions So I set my alarms (bar graph changes to red and a msg is generated on t he GRT) at 165 and 200 with the understanding that the actual temps are different throughout the oil system. The only unknown here is the accuracy of the sender. I guess the sender could be immersed in some heated oil and the reading compared with a ca librated gauge of some sort. I'll probably never do it but I have had a n oil temp sender fail already (reads zero or very low). On 1/15/2013 10:24 AM, n801bh@netzero.com wrote: IIRC.... The Lycoming engines have their oil temperature sending units p laced after the oil cooler, not in the sump. Where in my opinion, it bel ongs.. So , when you see 160 f as your oil temp, it is actually close to 200 in the bottom of the sump. More then enough to boil off the moistu re you guys are concerned with if your flight is 30 minutes or more. My .02 cents worth....... Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======= ____________________________________________________________ One Trick to Stay Asleep If you struggle to fall asleep, or stay asleep, try this… http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/50f5ee3482c226e345d61st04vuc ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps From: Kelly McMullen I have factory oil temp on my Mooney where the oil enters the oil galleys, whether that is from the cooler or the bypass passage. I have an EI oil temp gauge plumbed in place of the oil galley plug at front of the engine. The difference between the two is in the resolution of the factory analog gauge. The oil cooler isn't that efficient, and so it runs 205-210 at average temps, and 215-220 on a hot day climb. I doubt the sump temp is that different, as the oil that goes to the heads cools as it drains through the external tubes back to the sump, and the rest of the oil drains internally in the crankcase, never exposed to cylinder head temps. The 245 redline is based on where the factory probe is placed and data Lyc has about temps elsewhere in the engine. If high temps are a concern, run the Shell or Exxon semi-synthetic that resists the heat better than mineral oil. On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 5:01 PM, n801bh@netzero.com wrote: > Bill... I had a rather interesting discussion with a Lycoming rep at OSH a > few years back on this exact topic..... I posed the question of " suppose a > builder had a very efficient oil cooler and it removed 60 -70 F heat from > the oil and the sending unit was positioned at the outflow of the > cooler... Are Lycomings built to run with 300f+ degree oil...... He thought > about it for a minute and told me the placement for the sending unit is > based on the airframe manufacturers choice and most all of them spec it to > be on the discharge side of the oil cooler to mask improper breathing > cowlings.... I thought that was strange as Lycoming warrenties cooked > motors, not the plane maker.... He agreed it was a poor choice for the > location of the sending unit... > > The take home message is when you guys see oil temps of 245f on climb out > you can bet the actual temp is pushing 300 degrees in the motor itself.... > YUCK... > > Ben Haas > N801BH > www.haaspowerair.com > > > ---------- Original Message ---------- > From: Bill Watson > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Cold Wx Ops and Oil temps > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:46:32 -0500 > > Understood. My presumption is that the temperature ranges quoted in the > O-540, IO-540 Series Operator's Manual take the sending unit location into > account. The manual states: > > Oil Temperature: The maximum permissible oil temperature is 245F (118C). > For maximum engine life, desired oil Temperature should be maintained > between 165F (73.8C) and 200F(93.3C) in level flight cruise conditions > > So I set my alarms (bar graph changes to red and a msg is generated on the > GRT) at 165 and 200 with the understanding that the actual temps are > different throughout the oil system. > > The only unknown here is the accuracy of the sender. I guess the sender > could be immersed in some heated oil and the reading compared with a > calibrated gauge of some sort. I'll probably never do it but I have had an > oil temp sender fail already (reads zero or very low). > > > On 1/15/2013 10:24 AM, n801bh@netzero.com wrote: > > > IIRC.... The Lycoming engines have their oil temperature sending units > placed *after *the oil cooler, not in the sump. Where in my opinion, it > belongs.. So , when you see 160 f as your oil temp, it is actually close to > 200 in the bottom of the sump. More then enough to boil off the moisture > you guys are concerned with if your flight is 30 minutes or more. My .02 > cents worth....... > > Ben Haas > N801BH > www.haaspowerair.com > > > * > > ====================================http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > ====================================tronics.com > ====================================www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > * > > > ____________________________________________________________ > *One Trick to Stay Asleep* > If you struggle to fall asleep, or stay asleep, try this… > > peaklife.com > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:31 PM PST US From: Robin Marks Subject: RV10-List: Cowl Replacement Update Someone asked to see the front view of the Showplanes cowl to review the FI inlet area. Here you go! Robin [cid:image005.jpg@01CDF355.5CBA37D0][cid:image006.jpg@01CDF355.5CBA37D0] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.