---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/21/13: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:13 AM - Re: Bottom wing skin question (Werner Schneider) 2. 03:20 AM - Re: Cabin Top Woes (Patrick Pulis) 3. 06:30 AM - Re: Re: Rear Seat Heat Issue (Bill Watson) 4. 07:21 AM - Re: Cabin Top Woes (Bill Watson) 5. 07:35 AM - Free Wing Stand - KDLZ (rleffler) 6. 09:01 AM - Re: Cabin Top Woes (Les Kearney) 7. 09:17 AM - Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option (Bill Watson) 8. 11:41 AM - Re: Cabin Top Woes (Patrick Pulis) 9. 11:42 AM - Re: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option (Chris) 10. 12:56 PM - Re: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option (Ron B.) 11. 01:01 PM - Re: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting (Ron B.) 12. 01:29 PM - Re: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight (Carl Froehlich) 13. 01:57 PM - Re: Re: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option (Robin Marks) 14. 01:58 PM - Re: Re: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting (Carlos Trigo) 15. 02:13 PM - Re: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight (Pascal) 16. 05:17 PM - Re: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight (Chris) 17. 05:35 PM - Re: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight (Carl Froehlich) 18. 05:42 PM - Re: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight () 19. 05:46 PM - Re: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight (Pascal) 20. 06:34 PM - Re: Re: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting (Kelly McMullen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:13:00 AM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: RV10-List: Bottom wing skin question Gordon, did you check with Van's if that still fits the bill of structural integrity? Cheers Werner On 16.01.2013 18:03, Gordon Anderson wrote: > Hi Bill, > > On the bottom side of the wings the skin and rib should be dimpled for > the nutplates. You can confirm by checking the nut plates called out on > page 20-6 (K1100-08). > > I was unclear on this and machine countersunk them at the same time as > the top skins (I was getting everything done real fast that day ;-) ). > The result is so-so - its functionally OK but the hole gets slightly > enlarged since the 2 sheets are not quite thick enough to take the > countersink (unlike the top skins). If you have a pneumatic squeezer, > dimpling two sheets at once should be easy. > > Cheers, > > Gordon Anderson > 41015 Switzerland > > On Jan 16, 2013, at 5:05 PM, Bill and Tami Britton wrote: > >> I'm riveting on the bottom inboard wing skins and was curious if the >> holes that get drilled out to #19 for the nutplates (inboard most rib) >> need dimpled for a screw. I've dimpled the holes for the rivets that >> hold the nutplates on but does the screw hole itself need dimpled. If >> so, I've already riveted on one of the skins. Can it just be machine >> countersunk??? The instructions don't mention dimpling or >> countersinking (atleast up to this point) the screw holes, but as has >> been mentioned before, the further along in the build we go the more >> vague the instructions get. >> Thanks in advance for any help, >> Bill >> * >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> * >> > > * > > > * > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:20:51 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cabin Top Woes From: Patrick Pulis Vernon, I had to go past the scribe lines too. Regrettably the 'standard fit' is tight and variable due to the imprecise nature of the fibreglass moulding. Just keep sanding and trimming until it all fits. It's tight, but you eventually get there. Warm regards Patrick On 21/01/2013, at 9:00 AM, Vernon Franklin wrote: > I need some advice. I am trying to fit the cabin top, and it just wont fit into the door area. > > As you can see from the attached pics, I have a 37 1/16" space to work with. But if I sand the cabin top down that far, I am almost in the door channel. > > Did anyone else have to sand down this far? How far is to far to sand? > > Also, did anyone else's "scribe lines" seem completely random, and at times be almost 1/2" off completely? I have attached a picture example of that as well. > > > -- > Vernon Franklin ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:24 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Rear Seat Heat Issue We had a slightly different problem with a draft coming from the rear and cooling my front seat passenger's right side. I have Flightline's panels on the rear baggage covers which has foam and a pretty tight fit. I had asked a back seat passenger to feel around but got no joy. Finally on a cold flight, my SO crawled back and felt around and it seemed to come from the baggage door. I had tried to put some sealing around the door previously but pulled it out. I did some careful sealing there and the problem seems to be resolved. Bill On 1/15/2012 3:30 PM, jchang10 wrote: > > Hmm, a few people mentioned once they added a backing to the baggage cover to seal those gaps, they have not had any complaints about rear seat heat. > > I'll start looking for something to use for backing, and hope it solves my problem too. > > Thanks again! > Jae > > -------- > #40533 RV-10 > First flight 10/19/2011 > Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=363882#363882 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:40 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cabin Top Woes Same here - and I go back to the older green top. It occurs to me that fiberglass top is actually pretty consistent from part to part - even green to pink. They all fit the same way is rather crudely. I'd venture to say everyone has to go past the scribe lines (they are a good starting point) and everyone ends up with some very thin areas. The same thin areas from what I can see in this thread. I have 2 Kit log pages here that won't be much help but I talk a bit about tools. The only thing I can say with confidence is either work outside or get a filter bag for your shop vac. http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=2155&log=55674&row=12 It gets better, Bill On 1/21/2013 6:24 AM, Patrick Pulis wrote: > > Vernon, > > I had to go past the scribe lines too. Regrettably the 'standard fit' is tight and variable due to the imprecise nature of the fibreglass moulding. Just keep sanding and trimming until it all fits. It's tight, but you eventually get there. > > Warm regards > > Patrick > > On 21/01/2013, at 9:00 AM, Vernon Franklin wrote: > >> I need some advice. I am trying to fit the cabin top, and it just wont fit into the door area. >> >> As you can see from the attached pics, I have a 37 1/16" space to work with. But if I sand the cabin top down that far, I am almost in the door channel. >> >> Did anyone else have to sand down this far? How far is to far to sand? >> >> Also, did anyone else's "scribe lines" seem completely random, and at times be almost 1/2" off completely? I have attached a picture example of that as well. >> >> >> -- >> Vernon Franklin > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:14 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Free Wing Stand - KDLZ From: "rleffler" I will have a RV-10 wing stand available in a couple weeks. It's free, but you must pick it up a KDLZ (central Ohio). bob -------- Bob Leffler N410BL - Paint - 90% done, 90% to go stage RV-10 #40684 http://mykitlog.com/rleffler Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392816#392816 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wing_108.jpg ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:01:26 AM PST US From: Les Kearney Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cabin Top Woes Hi For those who can, part of Dave Saylor's composite course is seeing how a canopy is trimmed. Once you see what is involved, it becomes a much less daunting task. It is the not knowing that causes the apprehension when trimming. Dave's guys make it look easy peasy. Cheers Les Sent from my iPhone On 2013-01-21, at 8:21 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > Same here - and I go back to the older green top. > > It occurs to me that fiberglass top is actually pretty consistent from part to part - even green to pink. They all fit the same way is rather crudely. I'd venture to say everyone has to go past the scribe lines (they are a good starting point) and everyone ends up with some very thin areas. The same thin areas from what I can see in this thread. > > I have 2 Kit log pages here that won't be much help but I talk a bit about tools. The only thing I can say with confidence is either work outside or get a filter bag for your shop vac. > http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=2155&log=55674&row=12 > > It gets better, > Bill > > On 1/21/2013 6:24 AM, Patrick Pulis wrote: >> >> Vernon, >> >> I had to go past the scribe lines too. Regrettably the 'standard fit' is tight and variable due to the imprecise nature of the fibreglass moulding. Just keep sanding and trimming until it all fits. It's tight, but you eventually get there. >> >> Warm regards >> >> Patrick >> >> On 21/01/2013, at 9:00 AM, Vernon Franklin wrote: >> >>> I need some advice. I am trying to fit the cabin top, and it just wont fit into the door area. >>> >>> As you can see from the attached pics, I have a 37 1/16" space to work with. But if I sand the cabin top down that far, I am almost in the door channel. >>> >>> Did anyone else have to sand down this far? How far is to far to sand? >>> >>> Also, did anyone else's "scribe lines" seem completely random, and at times be almost 1/2" off completely? I have attached a picture example of that as well. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Vernon Franklin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:17:15 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: RV10-List: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option I lost track of the thread where this discussion was taking place but I said that I'd post a pic of some silicone strips I used somewhat successfully to reduce the oil door deformation in flight. https://www.dropbox.com/s/t459zmd5b3g1pue/Oil%20Door%203.jpg You can see I used the hidden hinge and the two latches on the front and rear edges of the door. I used a piece of foam overlayed with some light wt glass cloth to stiffen the door. I later glommed some graphite strands on top to absolutely no effect. Please ignore those. In flight, the door would bow outward along 3 of the 4 edges. Notably it did not bow out on the hinge edge since there is a stack of aluminum strips underneath hinge attach point. I've since added the 3 strips of silicone you see in the pic. It's the same silicone I used for the engine baffling. They are bonded with high temp silicone which is just about the only thing that will bond to that stuff. These significantly reduced the bowing, especially along the left edge where the strip is continuous. Leakage around the latches appears to still allow some bowing along the front and rear edges. Not sure how to address that at this point. In the end, I'd like to fabricate a new, much stiffer door. A sandwiched carbon fiber piece should do the trick. I like the hinge. I'm not in love with the latches but not sure what I would use in their place. Camlocs might be good but would require a tool to operate. FYI, I had inserted some small strips of stainless steel into the cowling as catches for the latches. For those of you worried about the door opening in flight, they flew open on me twice when one of the steel catches unbonded itself. The door opened but was securely retained by the hinge only. It turns out you can fly at moderate cruise speeds with the door hanging open. It didn't even appear to be under much stress. Bill "The Texas State Society of Washington DC throws a helluva party" Watson N215TG ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:41:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Cabin Top Woes From: Patrick Pulis Vernon, I found a pneumatic die grinder with one of the blades supplied in the kit to be the best way to trim the cabin top. Thereafter I used an orbital pneumatic sander (with inbuilt vacuum bag - cost me $39) with 80 grit paper to be the best tool. A pneumatic air file was also used to get into the corners. I hope this helps. Warm regards Patrick On 22/01/2013, at 1:51 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > Same here - and I go back to the older green top. > > It occurs to me that fiberglass top is actually pretty consistent from part to part - even green to pink. They all fit the same way is rather crudely. I'd venture to say everyone has to go past the scribe lines (they are a good starting point) and everyone ends up with some very thin areas. The same thin areas from what I can see in this thread. > > I have 2 Kit log pages here that won't be much help but I talk a bit about tools. The only thing I can say with confidence is either work outside or get a filter bag for your shop vac. > http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=2155&log=55674&row=12 > > It gets better, > Bill > > On 1/21/2013 6:24 AM, Patrick Pulis wrote: >> >> Vernon, >> >> I had to go past the scribe lines too. Regrettably the 'standard fit' is tight and variable due to the imprecise nature of the fibreglass moulding. Just keep sanding and trimming until it all fits. It's tight, but you eventually get there. >> >> Warm regards >> >> Patrick >> >> On 21/01/2013, at 9:00 AM, Vernon Franklin wrote: >> >>> I need some advice. I am trying to fit the cabin top, and it just wont fit into the door area. >>> >>> As you can see from the attached pics, I have a 37 1/16" space to work with. But if I sand the cabin top down that far, I am almost in the door channel. >>> >>> Did anyone else have to sand down this far? How far is to far to sand? >>> >>> Also, did anyone else's "scribe lines" seem completely random, and at times be almost 1/2" off completely? I have attached a picture example of that as well. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Vernon Franklin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:42:52 AM PST US From: "Chris" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option I do not have a picture handy... my door has the same hidden hinge and two flush latches on the left side of the door next to each other; one forward and one aft. But I did use 2 layers (maybe more can't remember) of carbon tow on the outside surface. I have no added sealing features. The door is VERY stiff and I do not notice any position change in flight. I do notice the aft edge of my cowl balloons up a bit, about 1/16 inch in flight. This is just due to the slack in the aft hinge pins toward the center of the cowl. -Chris N919AR -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 12:16 PM Subject: RV10-List: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option I lost track of the thread where this discussion was taking place but I said that I'd post a pic of some silicone strips I used somewhat successfully to reduce the oil door deformation in flight. https://www.dropbox.com/s/t459zmd5b3g1pue/Oil%20Door%203.jpg You can see I used the hidden hinge and the two latches on the front and rear edges of the door. I used a piece of foam overlayed with some light wt glass cloth to stiffen the door. I later glommed some graphite strands on top to absolutely no effect. Please ignore those. In flight, the door would bow outward along 3 of the 4 edges. Notably it did not bow out on the hinge edge since there is a stack of aluminum strips underneath hinge attach point. I've since added the 3 strips of silicone you see in the pic. It's the same silicone I used for the engine baffling. They are bonded with high temp silicone which is just about the only thing that will bond to that stuff. These significantly reduced the bowing, especially along the left edge where the strip is continuous. Leakage around the latches appears to still allow some bowing along the front and rear edges. Not sure how to address that at this point. In the end, I'd like to fabricate a new, much stiffer door. A sandwiched carbon fiber piece should do the trick. I like the hinge. I'm not in love with the latches but not sure what I would use in their place. Camlocs might be good but would require a tool to operate. FYI, I had inserted some small strips of stainless steel into the cowling as catches for the latches. For those of you worried about the door opening in flight, they flew open on me twice when one of the steel catches unbonded itself. The door opened but was securely retained by the hinge only. It turns out you can fly at moderate cruise speeds with the door hanging open. It didn't even appear to be under much stress. Bill "The Texas State Society of Washington DC throws a helluva party" Watson N215TG ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:00 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option From: "Ron B." The only thing about flying with the door open is loss of cooling. My original opened twice in flight and it just sat there with no movement. I landed right away. The alum. cover I made now stays put. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392845#392845 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:54 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting From: "Ron B." Removed the fairing today and all is good. All steps on page 10-22 were completed. I don't recall where we would have obtained the instructions at the time or we might just have thought it was one of Van's figure it out yourself steps. This is just why I follow these forums. Had we missed something here , this post could have saved our lives. On Sunday, after reading the first post looking for help, I pulled out my manual and looked for where the instructions said to rivet those left out rivets with no luck. I later read that the OP had pages missing and it turned out so did I. Thanks Carlos as you got me looking. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392847#392847 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:44 PM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight On the aft edge cowl ballooning up, I have a plenum so my cowl did not balloon up but I did have a "smoke trail" from the ends of the pins - evidenced there was vibration between the smaller diameter pin and the hinge. I figured such relative motion was a quick way to break off cowl mounting hinge eyelets. Attached photos show how I fixed the problem. It takes some careful measurements to get the mount hole to end up flush to the bottom of the cowl, then drill the hole through the cowl for the #8 screw (the screw goes into a nutplate). Measure many times then drill. The white grease you see allows for the final movement of the angle to go flush with the bottom of the cowl. I also added a few layers of carbon fiber in this area to preclude the brace angle from ablating the top of the cowl. Add these layers before fit up of the brace. 70 hours now with no rattle, no movement, and no evidence of the top of the cowl wearing. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 2:43 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option I do not have a picture handy... my door has the same hidden hinge and two flush latches on the left side of the door next to each other; one forward and one aft. But I did use 2 layers (maybe more can't remember) of carbon tow on the outside surface. I have no added sealing features. The door is VERY stiff and I do not notice any position change in flight. I do notice the aft edge of my cowl balloons up a bit, about 1/16 inch in flight. This is just due to the slack in the aft hinge pins toward the center of the cowl. -Chris N919AR -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 12:16 PM Subject: RV10-List: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option I lost track of the thread where this discussion was taking place but I said that I'd post a pic of some silicone strips I used somewhat successfully to reduce the oil door deformation in flight. https://www.dropbox.com/s/t459zmd5b3g1pue/Oil%20Door%203.jpg You can see I used the hidden hinge and the two latches on the front and rear edges of the door. I used a piece of foam overlayed with some light wt glass cloth to stiffen the door. I later glommed some graphite strands on top to absolutely no effect. Please ignore those. In flight, the door would bow outward along 3 of the 4 edges. Notably it did not bow out on the hinge edge since there is a stack of aluminum strips underneath hinge attach point. I've since added the 3 strips of silicone you see in the pic. It's the same silicone I used for the engine baffling. They are bonded with high temp silicone which is just about the only thing that will bond to that stuff. These significantly reduced the bowing, especially along the left edge where the strip is continuous. Leakage around the latches appears to still allow some bowing along the front and rear edges. Not sure how to address that at this point. In the end, I'd like to fabricate a new, much stiffer door. A sandwiched carbon fiber piece should do the trick. I like the hinge. I'm not in love with the latches but not sure what I would use in their place. Camlocs might be good but would require a tool to operate. FYI, I had inserted some small strips of stainless steel into the cowling as catches for the latches. For those of you worried about the door opening in flight, they flew open on me twice when one of the steel catches unbonded itself. The door opened but was securely retained by the hinge only. It turns out you can fly at moderate cruise speeds with the door hanging open. It didn't even appear to be under much stress. Bill "The Texas State Society of Washington DC throws a helluva party" Watson N215TG ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:57:58 PM PST US From: Robin Marks Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option Here is how we stiffened the oil door. This is our third RV oil door with a hidden hinge and a single Hartwell latch. Works great, no deformation. Robin [cid:image005.jpg@01CDF7DE.CB72EF40] [cid:image006.jpg@01CDF7DE.CB72EF40] -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron B. Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 12:55 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option ronbelliveau@eastlink.ca>> The only thing about flying with the door open is loss of cooling. My origi nal opened twice in flight and it just sat there with no movement. I landed right away. The alum. cover I made now stays put. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392845#392845 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:58:10 PM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting You're welcome Ron I didn't imagine that my Sunday's cry for help, which turned out to be a manual error, would be so useful for others . Fly safe Carlos -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron B. Sent: segunda-feira, 21 de Janeiro de 2013 21:02 Subject: RV10-List: Re: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting ronbelliveau@eastlink.ca> Removed the fairing today and all is good. All steps on page 10-22 were completed. I don't recall where we would have obtained the instructions at the time or we might just have thought it was one of Van's figure it out yourself steps. This is just why I follow these forums. Had we missed something here , this post could have saved our lives. On Sunday, after reading the first post looking for help, I pulled out my manual and looked for where the instructions said to rivet those left out rivets with no luck. I later read that the OP had pages missing and it turned out so did I. Thanks Carlos as you got me looking. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392847#392847 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:46 PM PST US From: "Pascal" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight Being I suffer from the same smoke trails every flight. Did you do the bracket with the bottom cowl off to allow getting in there and positioning the bracket or did you have the bottom on and came up with a good estimate of where to position the firewall facing holes? Thank you! Pascal -----Original Message----- From: Carl Froehlich Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 1:29 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight On the aft edge cowl ballooning up, I have a plenum so my cowl did not balloon up but I did have a "smoke trail" from the ends of the pins - evidenced there was vibration between the smaller diameter pin and the hinge. I figured such relative motion was a quick way to break off cowl mounting hinge eyelets. Attached photos show how I fixed the problem. It takes some careful measurements to get the mount hole to end up flush to the bottom of the cowl, then drill the hole through the cowl for the #8 screw (the screw goes into a nutplate). Measure many times then drill. The white grease you see allows for the final movement of the angle to go flush with the bottom of the cowl. I also added a few layers of carbon fiber in this area to preclude the brace angle from ablating the top of the cowl. Add these layers before fit up of the brace. 70 hours now with no rattle, no movement, and no evidence of the top of the cowl wearing. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 2:43 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option I do not have a picture handy... my door has the same hidden hinge and two flush latches on the left side of the door next to each other; one forward and one aft. But I did use 2 layers (maybe more can't remember) of carbon tow on the outside surface. I have no added sealing features. The door is VERY stiff and I do not notice any position change in flight. I do notice the aft edge of my cowl balloons up a bit, about 1/16 inch in flight. This is just due to the slack in the aft hinge pins toward the center of the cowl. -Chris N919AR -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 12:16 PM Subject: RV10-List: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option I lost track of the thread where this discussion was taking place but I said that I'd post a pic of some silicone strips I used somewhat successfully to reduce the oil door deformation in flight. https://www.dropbox.com/s/t459zmd5b3g1pue/Oil%20Door%203.jpg You can see I used the hidden hinge and the two latches on the front and rear edges of the door. I used a piece of foam overlayed with some light wt glass cloth to stiffen the door. I later glommed some graphite strands on top to absolutely no effect. Please ignore those. In flight, the door would bow outward along 3 of the 4 edges. Notably it did not bow out on the hinge edge since there is a stack of aluminum strips underneath hinge attach point. I've since added the 3 strips of silicone you see in the pic. It's the same silicone I used for the engine baffling. They are bonded with high temp silicone which is just about the only thing that will bond to that stuff. These significantly reduced the bowing, especially along the left edge where the strip is continuous. Leakage around the latches appears to still allow some bowing along the front and rear edges. Not sure how to address that at this point. In the end, I'd like to fabricate a new, much stiffer door. A sandwiched carbon fiber piece should do the trick. I like the hinge. I'm not in love with the latches but not sure what I would use in their place. Camlocs might be good but would require a tool to operate. FYI, I had inserted some small strips of stainless steel into the cowling as catches for the latches. For those of you worried about the door opening in flight, they flew open on me twice when one of the steel catches unbonded itself. The door opened but was securely retained by the hinge only. It turns out you can fly at moderate cruise speeds with the door hanging open. It didn't even appear to be under much stress. Bill "The Texas State Society of Washington DC throws a helluva party" Watson N215TG ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:07 PM PST US From: "Chris" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight Interesting - I had no plans yet to do anything, something like that seems pretty good. I had wondered if a tapered hinge pin could be devised so it would tighten up at the last few inches before the pin was fully in its installed position. -Chris N919AR -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Froehlich Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 4:29 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight On the aft edge cowl ballooning up, I have a plenum so my cowl did not balloon up but I did have a "smoke trail" from the ends of the pins - evidenced there was vibration between the smaller diameter pin and the hinge. I figured such relative motion was a quick way to break off cowl mounting hinge eyelets. Attached photos show how I fixed the problem. It takes some careful measurements to get the mount hole to end up flush to the bottom of the cowl, then drill the hole through the cowl for the #8 screw (the screw goes into a nutplate). Measure many times then drill. The white grease you see allows for the final movement of the angle to go flush with the bottom of the cowl. I also added a few layers of carbon fiber in this area to preclude the brace angle from ablating the top of the cowl. Add these layers before fit up of the brace. 70 hours now with no rattle, no movement, and no evidence of the top of the cowl wearing. Carl ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:56 PM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight It took a lot of measurements to get this right the first time. I did this after final paint, so I was paranoid about screwing up the paint job. To outline what I did: - The angle material is 3/4" x 3/4", 063" aluminum. - The bracket is a single piece of .063" aluminum. Note the shape - the dip allows for clearance of the pin locking plate. - The angle that mounts to the firewall is on the centerline of the vertical bulkhead flange that is on the other side of the firewall. I wanted this spot as it would reduce flexing of the thin firewall SS. - Bottom cowl was on throughout. - I picked the spot on the top cowl such that it was far enough forward to not interfere with the cowl pin locking plate but not much further, and centered between the two cowl pin locking plate screws. - With the spot marked on a piece of tape on the top cowl and the top cowl on, put a strip of masking tape on the top of the fuselage to do reference marks. I measured to perhaps 10" each side of the center line from the spot on the top cowl, then the "triangle" measurement from these reference marks to the spot on the cowl where the mounting screw will be. The ideas is to be able to find the same spot with the cowl off using these measurements. - With the top cowl on, use a piece of angle that sits on some shims on the fuselage and spinner. You want this angle to be in exactly the same place with the top cowl on as off, but not touching the top cowl - just above it. Measure the distance between the angle and the top cowl where you want to put the screw. - With the top cowl off, and after you add a few layers of glass where the hole will go (but not to interfere with the cowl pin locking plate), measure the thickness of the cowl where you want to put the screw hole. - With the top cowl off and angle in place, you can now find the position where the screw will go into the bracket. The distance below the angle will be the sum of the thickness of the cowl and the distance you measured between the top of the cowl and the angle when the top cowl was on. The spot in the horizontal plane will be on the centerline and per your measurements to your marks on the fuselage. - I clekoed the vertical angle onto the firewall. I used clamps to hold the bracket arm in place as I adjusted the position of the angle that holds the nutplate. - Once you think you have the nutplate angle where you want it, mark the pieces, put a piece of tape on the top of the nutplate angle, put the top cowl on, drill a #40 hole in your spot enough to go through the cowl and just enough to make a mark on the angle tape. - Put your digital camera in the oil door and take a picture of the bracket to verify the nutplate angle is flush against the top cowl. - Take the top cowl off and see if you are happy where the nutplate hole will be. If so, then final drill the bracket to the bulkhead angle and drill the cowl to #30 and the nutplate hole to #30. Cleko the bracket to the bulkhead angle, put the top cowl on, cross your fingers and see if the nutplate hole lines up with the cowl hole. If so, cleko and take another photo to make sure the nutplate angle is still flush to the top of the cowl. - Disassemble, rivet the bracket together, drill the screw holes to #19, countersink the top of the cowl for a SS #19 screw with SS tinnerman, and rivet the nutplate in place. - The nutplate angle is firm against the bracket, but not tight. I uses two #19 nuts to make a locknut so once it would not vibrate loose. Put a dab of grease between the nutplate angle and the bracket to allow it to rotate flush to the top of the cowl when you put in the screw. So, harder to put into words than what it is, but I did scratch my head trying to figure out how to do this. Hopefully this at least give you something to start with. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 5:13 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight Being I suffer from the same smoke trails every flight. Did you do the bracket with the bottom cowl off to allow getting in there and positioning the bracket or did you have the bottom on and came up with a good estimate of where to position the firewall facing holes? Thank you! Pascal -----Original Message----- From: Carl Froehlich Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 1:29 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight On the aft edge cowl ballooning up, I have a plenum so my cowl did not balloon up but I did have a "smoke trail" from the ends of the pins - evidenced there was vibration between the smaller diameter pin and the hinge. I figured such relative motion was a quick way to break off cowl mounting hinge eyelets. Attached photos show how I fixed the problem. It takes some careful measurements to get the mount hole to end up flush to the bottom of the cowl, then drill the hole through the cowl for the #8 screw (the screw goes into a nutplate). Measure many times then drill. The white grease you see allows for the final movement of the angle to go flush with the bottom of the cowl. I also added a few layers of carbon fiber in this area to preclude the brace angle from ablating the top of the cowl. Add these layers before fit up of the brace. 70 hours now with no rattle, no movement, and no evidence of the top of the cowl wearing. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 2:43 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option I do not have a picture handy... my door has the same hidden hinge and two flush latches on the left side of the door next to each other; one forward and one aft. But I did use 2 layers (maybe more can't remember) of carbon tow on the outside surface. I have no added sealing features. The door is VERY stiff and I do not notice any position change in flight. I do notice the aft edge of my cowl balloons up a bit, about 1/16 inch in flight. This is just due to the slack in the aft hinge pins toward the center of the cowl. -Chris N919AR -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 12:16 PM Subject: RV10-List: Oil door deformation in flight - a sealing option I lost track of the thread where this discussion was taking place but I said that I'd post a pic of some silicone strips I used somewhat successfully to reduce the oil door deformation in flight. https://www.dropbox.com/s/t459zmd5b3g1pue/Oil%20Door%203.jpg You can see I used the hidden hinge and the two latches on the front and rear edges of the door. I used a piece of foam overlayed with some light wt glass cloth to stiffen the door. I later glommed some graphite strands on top to absolutely no effect. Please ignore those. In flight, the door would bow outward along 3 of the 4 edges. Notably it did not bow out on the hinge edge since there is a stack of aluminum strips underneath hinge attach point. I've since added the 3 strips of silicone you see in the pic. It's the same silicone I used for the engine baffling. They are bonded with high temp silicone which is just about the only thing that will bond to that stuff. These significantly reduced the bowing, especially along the left edge where the strip is continuous. Leakage around the latches appears to still allow some bowing along the front and rear edges. Not sure how to address that at this point. In the end, I'd like to fabricate a new, much stiffer door. A sandwiched carbon fiber piece should do the trick. I like the hinge. I'm not in love with the latches but not sure what I would use in their place. Camlocs might be good but would require a tool to operate. FYI, I had inserted some small strips of stainless steel into the cowling as catches for the latches. For those of you worried about the door opening in flight, they flew open on me twice when one of the steel catches unbonded itself. The door opened but was securely retained by the hinge only. It turns out you can fly at moderate cruise speeds with the door hanging open. It didn't even appear to be under much stress. Bill "The Texas State Society of Washington DC throws a helluva party" Watson N215TG ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:06 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight Hey Chris, I only use the hinge pins on the horizontal, preferring Sky Bolts/CamLocs around the firewall, so this is REALLY less than my 2 cents worth. Instead of messing with a tapered pin, if you wanted it to snug up the last few inches, why not just squeeze the bottom couple of eyes a bit tighter, or angle them a bit to grab the pin? Just a thought for the pin heads. ;-) Later, - Lew do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Chris Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 8:16 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight Interesting - I had no plans yet to do anything, something like that seems pretty good. I had wondered if a tapered hinge pin could be devised so it would tighten up at the last few inches before the pin was fully in its installed position. -Chris N919AR ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:47 PM PST US From: "Pascal" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight Doesn't do much, I have mine sort of this way, just makes for pulling in and out harder with little benefit. Pascal -----Original Message----- From: Chris Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 5:16 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight Interesting - I had no plans yet to do anything, something like that seems pretty good. I had wondered if a tapered hinge pin could be devised so it would tighten up at the last few inches before the pin was fully in its installed position. -Chris N919AR -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Froehlich Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 4:29 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Top Cowl aft edge - was Oil door deformation in flight On the aft edge cowl ballooning up, I have a plenum so my cowl did not balloon up but I did have a "smoke trail" from the ends of the pins - evidenced there was vibration between the smaller diameter pin and the hinge. I figured such relative motion was a quick way to break off cowl mounting hinge eyelets. Attached photos show how I fixed the problem. It takes some careful measurements to get the mount hole to end up flush to the bottom of the cowl, then drill the hole through the cowl for the #8 screw (the screw goes into a nutplate). Measure many times then drill. The white grease you see allows for the final movement of the angle to go flush with the bottom of the cowl. I also added a few layers of carbon fiber in this area to preclude the brace angle from ablating the top of the cowl. Add these layers before fit up of the brace. 70 hours now with no rattle, no movement, and no evidence of the top of the cowl wearing. Carl ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:29 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Aft-deck F-1011 Bulkhead riveting From: Kelly McMullen For those I sent section 10 plans to, they have page 10-22 with revision 1, which matches my copy from Vans. I don't know if there is any newer revision. My build # is 40866. On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Ron B. wrote: > > Removed the fairing today and all is good. All steps on page 10-22 were > completed. I don't recall where we would have obtained the instructions at > the time or we might just have thought it was one of Van's figure it out > yourself steps. > This is just why I follow these forums. Had we missed something here , > this post could have saved our lives. > On Sunday, after reading the first post looking for help, I pulled out my > manual and looked for where the instructions said to rivet those left out > rivets with no luck. I later read that the OP had pages missing and it > turned out so did I. > Thanks Carlos as you got me looking. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392847#392847 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.