Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:01 AM - Re: Heated pitot (Seano)
2. 08:23 AM - Re: Heated pitot (Miller John)
3. 09:37 AM - RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) (Dave Saylor)
4. 09:49 AM - Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) (John Jessen)
5. 09:58 AM - Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) (Dave Saylor)
6. 10:03 AM - Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) (Tim Olson)
7. 10:53 AM - Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) (Seano)
8. 11:23 AM - Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) (Stein Bruch)
9. 11:24 AM - Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) (Tim Olson)
10. 12:21 PM - Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) (Bob Turner)
11. 12:38 PM - Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) (Dave Saylor)
12. 12:44 PM - Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) (Dave Saylor)
13. 01:04 PM - Re: Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) (Dave Saylor)
14. 01:06 PM - Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) (Tim Olson)
15. 01:25 PM - Front seat heat (Ed Kranz)
16. 01:52 PM - Re: Front seat heat (Bob Turner)
17. 01:54 PM - Re: Front seat heat (Seano)
18. 02:14 PM - Another use for an RV-10: hauling an RV-12 (Dan Masys)
19. 02:27 PM - Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) (Bob Turner)
20. 02:28 PM - Re: Front seat heat (Linn)
21. 02:55 PM - Re: Re: Front seat heat (Tim Olson)
22. 05:36 PM - Re: Re: Front seat heat (Seano)
23. 07:00 PM - Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) (Dave Saylor)
24. 08:05 PM - Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) (Tim Olson)
25. 08:44 PM - Re: Another use for an RV-10: hauling an RV-12 (Jeff Carpenter)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Heated pitot |
Hey Tim,
I'm not going to replace unless it stops working. Stein replaced it last time
it melted down. They had a bad batch. My new one is kind of a bad batch :)
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 1, 2013, at 12:02, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
>
> Me either. I wonder if they changed the plastics formula
> or something strange. Sean, are they being good about support?
> Will they send you another one? So far I'm planning to use
> one again on the RV-14, unless I hear of lots of issues. I've
> got the gretz mount for it already.
>
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
>
>
> On 3/1/2013 1:41 PM, Dick & Vicki Sipp wrote:
>> No issues with Getz 460 hours.
>> Dick Sipp
>> *From:* Bruce Johnson <mailto:bruce1hwjohnson@yahoo.com>
>> *Sent:* Friday, March 01, 2013 10:14 AM
>> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> *Subject:* RV10-List: Heated pitot
>> What is the consensuson the choice for heated pitot? I am getting close
>> to paint and want to install before I do. Thanks
>> Bruce 151BJ
>>
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Heated pitot |
Mine has been installed and working for 6 years, no problems to date.
grumpy
n184jm
do not archive
On Mar 1, 2013, at 9:49 AM, Seano wrote:
> =46rom personal experience I would not buy the Gretz again. The first
one melted and the second one I have now is cracked. My panel has the
labeling and holes drilled permenantly for the status lights so hard to
change to a different pitot at this point.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce Johnson
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 8:14 AM
> Subject: RV10-List: Heated pitot
>
> What is the consensus on the choice for heated pitot? I am getting
close to paint and want to install before I do. Thanks
> Bruce 151BJ
>
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
not yet flying.
On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat. My CG range is 8.4
to 16.8 (inches aft of the wing leading edge). My CG on takeoff was
14.4--I ran the number before we departed because I knew the CG was
"aft-ish"--and the weight was 2614 lbs. Years ago during phase 1 we
loaded the plane at aft CG, max gross, and did some stalls. I don't
recall anything strange at all about those maneuvers.
First, I demonstrated an approach stall, which I've done many times.
My normal recovery is just to add a little power, stick neutral if
necessary, and the plane just flys out. On the first stall, that's
just how it went.
Of course then it was time for a little "Watch this!"...
Actually, I wanted to demonstrate the AOA audio warning,
"Angle-Angle-Push", which was kind of faint on the first stall. So I
let the stall develop further, keeping wings level with the rudder.
The wings rocked a bit but nothing serious. The nose stayed straight
ahead. Then, the nose pitched WAY down. I added power to break the
stall and fly it out but there was no change. It felt like we were
descending, not flying. It felt like we were about 45* nose down, but
the EFIS logs didn't capture anything that extreme. I was concerned
about entering a spin. So was the guy in the front seat--he said so
as it was happening...I added more power, stick neutral, and still the
nose was pointed down. I kept the wings more or less level but at
this point things seemed out of the ordinary so I got more agressive
with the controls. I pushed forward, adding more power. The plane
then seemed to fly, and I seemed to be going pretty fast, but I didn't
look at the airspeed. I pulled up gently and the controls eventually
started feeling normal again. The EFIS logs showed the whole event
lasted less than 10 seconds--two data captures--but it sure seemed
longer. We lost about 300 feet.
I spoke to another -10 owner who has a lot of acro and formation
experience. He said, yeah, it'll do that...he concurred that from a
deep stall, an RV-10 requires extra effort to break it. That's
probably not a huge surprise if you think about it and expect it, but
in this case it gave me (and unfortunately my passengers) a little
concern.
I'd be interested to hear if others have had similar experiences, and
if anyone has an explanation for what's going on aerodynamically.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
Nice job getting out of that situation, Dave. Glad you are still with us!
John J
On Mar 2, 2013, at 9:35 AM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
> not yet flying.
>
> On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat. My CG range is 8.4
> to 16.8 (inches aft of the wing leading edge). My CG on takeoff was
> 14.4--I ran the number before we departed because I knew the CG was
> "aft-ish"--and the weight was 2614 lbs. Years ago during phase 1 we
> loaded the plane at aft CG, max gross, and did some stalls. I don't
> recall anything strange at all about those maneuvers.
>
> First, I demonstrated an approach stall, which I've done many times.
> My normal recovery is just to add a little power, stick neutral if
> necessary, and the plane just flys out. On the first stall, that's
> just how it went.
>
> Of course then it was time for a little "Watch this!"...
>
> Actually, I wanted to demonstrate the AOA audio warning,
> "Angle-Angle-Push", which was kind of faint on the first stall. So I
> let the stall develop further, keeping wings level with the rudder.
> The wings rocked a bit but nothing serious. The nose stayed straight
> ahead. Then, the nose pitched WAY down. I added power to break the
> stall and fly it out but there was no change. It felt like we were
> descending, not flying. It felt like we were about 45* nose down, but
> the EFIS logs didn't capture anything that extreme. I was concerned
> about entering a spin. So was the guy in the front seat--he said so
> as it was happening...I added more power, stick neutral, and still the
> nose was pointed down. I kept the wings more or less level but at
> this point things seemed out of the ordinary so I got more agressive
> with the controls. I pushed forward, adding more power. The plane
> then seemed to fly, and I seemed to be going pretty fast, but I didn't
> look at the airspeed. I pulled up gently and the controls eventually
> started feeling normal again. The EFIS logs showed the whole event
> lasted less than 10 seconds--two data captures--but it sure seemed
> longer. We lost about 300 feet.
>
> I spoke to another -10 owner who has a lot of acro and formation
> experience. He said, yeah, it'll do that...he concurred that from a
> deep stall, an RV-10 requires extra effort to break it. That's
> probably not a huge surprise if you think about it and expect it, but
> in this case it gave me (and unfortunately my passengers) a little
> concern.
>
> I'd be interested to hear if others have had similar experiences, and
> if anyone has an explanation for what's going on aerodynamically.
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
Well, I didn't mean to make it seem super dangerous...it wasn't like I
was seeing scenes from my childhood or anything. It got my attention
and it may have resolved itself after a few more seconds--I don't
know. I didn't feel terribly out of control or anything but the plane
didn't respond exactly like I expected it too. Unless I hear a reason
not to, I'm gonna try it again, but this time expect a slower
recovery.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 9:48 AM, John Jessen <n212pj@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Nice job getting out of that situation, Dave. Glad you are still with us!
>
> John J
>
> On Mar 2, 2013, at 9:35 AM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
>> not yet flying.
>>
>> On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat. My CG range is 8.4
>> to 16.8 (inches aft of the wing leading edge). My CG on takeoff was
>> 14.4--I ran the number before we departed because I knew the CG was
>> "aft-ish"--and the weight was 2614 lbs. Years ago during phase 1 we
>> loaded the plane at aft CG, max gross, and did some stalls. I don't
>> recall anything strange at all about those maneuvers.
>>
>> First, I demonstrated an approach stall, which I've done many times.
>> My normal recovery is just to add a little power, stick neutral if
>> necessary, and the plane just flys out. On the first stall, that's
>> just how it went.
>>
>> Of course then it was time for a little "Watch this!"...
>>
>> Actually, I wanted to demonstrate the AOA audio warning,
>> "Angle-Angle-Push", which was kind of faint on the first stall. So I
>> let the stall develop further, keeping wings level with the rudder.
>> The wings rocked a bit but nothing serious. The nose stayed straight
>> ahead. Then, the nose pitched WAY down. I added power to break the
>> stall and fly it out but there was no change. It felt like we were
>> descending, not flying. It felt like we were about 45* nose down, but
>> the EFIS logs didn't capture anything that extreme. I was concerned
>> about entering a spin. So was the guy in the front seat--he said so
>> as it was happening...I added more power, stick neutral, and still the
>> nose was pointed down. I kept the wings more or less level but at
>> this point things seemed out of the ordinary so I got more agressive
>> with the controls. I pushed forward, adding more power. The plane
>> then seemed to fly, and I seemed to be going pretty fast, but I didn't
>> look at the airspeed. I pulled up gently and the controls eventually
>> started feeling normal again. The EFIS logs showed the whole event
>> lasted less than 10 seconds--two data captures--but it sure seemed
>> longer. We lost about 300 feet.
>>
>> I spoke to another -10 owner who has a lot of acro and formation
>> experience. He said, yeah, it'll do that...he concurred that from a
>> deep stall, an RV-10 requires extra effort to break it. That's
>> probably not a huge surprise if you think about it and expect it, but
>> in this case it gave me (and unfortunately my passengers) a little
>> concern.
>>
>> I'd be interested to hear if others have had similar experiences, and
>> if anyone has an explanation for what's going on aerodynamically.
>>
>> Dave Saylor
>> 831-750-0284 CL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
I've seen something odd like this once too. The situation was a bit
different though from the sounds of it. Would you say that the
elevator felt somewhat aerodynamically "disconnected" during this?
The experience I had, you could hear the prop pitch change as it
sounded like it quit biting the air the same, and the pitch force
got real "sloppy", like you could have pulled or pushed and not
gotten a lot of response at all. But, going into standard stall
recovery mode automatically, I shoved the stick forward and
it came right out of it. The whole thing lasted only maybe 2 seconds,
but when you feel something like that you know how time goes slowly.
At any rate, I think I was just so deep in the stall at the time
that probably the wing wash interrupted the flow over the horizontal
stabilizer, or something like that. So the elevator lost some
effectiveness. At least that's what I attributed it to.
It wasn't quite a normal flight situation for me, so I've been
thinking of some day trying to recreate it up high, but I'm not
sure if I could, without the added weight of filled seats...so
I'm not sure if I'll bother. The airplane behaved pretty well
through it, so I was happy for that.
Tim
On 3/2/2013 11:35 AM, Dave Saylor wrote:
>
> Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
> not yet flying.
>
> On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat. My CG range is 8.4
> to 16.8 (inches aft of the wing leading edge). My CG on takeoff was
> 14.4--I ran the number before we departed because I knew the CG was
> "aft-ish"--and the weight was 2614 lbs. Years ago during phase 1 we
> loaded the plane at aft CG, max gross, and did some stalls. I don't
> recall anything strange at all about those maneuvers.
>
> First, I demonstrated an approach stall, which I've done many times.
> My normal recovery is just to add a little power, stick neutral if
> necessary, and the plane just flys out. On the first stall, that's
> just how it went.
>
> Of course then it was time for a little "Watch this!"...
>
> Actually, I wanted to demonstrate the AOA audio warning,
> "Angle-Angle-Push", which was kind of faint on the first stall. So I
> let the stall develop further, keeping wings level with the rudder.
> The wings rocked a bit but nothing serious. The nose stayed straight
> ahead. Then, the nose pitched WAY down. I added power to break the
> stall and fly it out but there was no change. It felt like we were
> descending, not flying. It felt like we were about 45* nose down, but
> the EFIS logs didn't capture anything that extreme. I was concerned
> about entering a spin. So was the guy in the front seat--he said so
> as it was happening...I added more power, stick neutral, and still the
> nose was pointed down. I kept the wings more or less level but at
> this point things seemed out of the ordinary so I got more agressive
> with the controls. I pushed forward, adding more power. The plane
> then seemed to fly, and I seemed to be going pretty fast, but I didn't
> look at the airspeed. I pulled up gently and the controls eventually
> started feeling normal again. The EFIS logs showed the whole event
> lasted less than 10 seconds--two data captures--but it sure seemed
> longer. We lost about 300 feet.
>
> I spoke to another -10 owner who has a lot of acro and formation
> experience. He said, yeah, it'll do that...he concurred that from a
> deep stall, an RV-10 requires extra effort to break it. That's
> probably not a huge surprise if you think about it and expect it, but
> in this case it gave me (and unfortunately my passengers) a little
> concern.
>
> I'd be interested to hear if others have had similar experiences, and
> if anyone has an explanation for what's going on aerodynamically.
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
I was up experimenting with the stall in my 10. Mine is at the fwd cg with me alone
so keep that in mind. I stalled and kept the stick full aft. The plane just
buffeted and still had good aileron control. I stomped on the rudder both directions
with full aft stick and the plane just mushed along. It would not enter
a spin. Like I said I am close to the fwd CG. I have a video of this I'll
try to post later.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 2, 2013, at 10:02, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
>
> I've seen something odd like this once too. The situation was a bit
> different though from the sounds of it. Would you say that the
> elevator felt somewhat aerodynamically "disconnected" during this?
> The experience I had, you could hear the prop pitch change as it
> sounded like it quit biting the air the same, and the pitch force
> got real "sloppy", like you could have pulled or pushed and not
> gotten a lot of response at all. But, going into standard stall
> recovery mode automatically, I shoved the stick forward and
> it came right out of it. The whole thing lasted only maybe 2 seconds,
> but when you feel something like that you know how time goes slowly.
> At any rate, I think I was just so deep in the stall at the time
> that probably the wing wash interrupted the flow over the horizontal
> stabilizer, or something like that. So the elevator lost some
> effectiveness. At least that's what I attributed it to.
> It wasn't quite a normal flight situation for me, so I've been
> thinking of some day trying to recreate it up high, but I'm not
> sure if I could, without the added weight of filled seats...so
> I'm not sure if I'll bother. The airplane behaved pretty well
> through it, so I was happy for that.
>
> Tim
>
>
> On 3/2/2013 11:35 AM, Dave Saylor wrote:
>>
>> Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
>> not yet flying.
>>
>> On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat. My CG range is 8.4
>> to 16.8 (inches aft of the wing leading edge). My CG on takeoff was
>> 14.4--I ran the number before we departed because I knew the CG was
>> "aft-ish"--and the weight was 2614 lbs. Years ago during phase 1 we
>> loaded the plane at aft CG, max gross, and did some stalls. I don't
>> recall anything strange at all about those maneuvers.
>>
>> First, I demonstrated an approach stall, which I've done many times.
>> My normal recovery is just to add a little power, stick neutral if
>> necessary, and the plane just flys out. On the first stall, that's
>> just how it went.
>>
>> Of course then it was time for a little "Watch this!"...
>>
>> Actually, I wanted to demonstrate the AOA audio warning,
>> "Angle-Angle-Push", which was kind of faint on the first stall. So I
>> let the stall develop further, keeping wings level with the rudder.
>> The wings rocked a bit but nothing serious. The nose stayed straight
>> ahead. Then, the nose pitched WAY down. I added power to break the
>> stall and fly it out but there was no change. It felt like we were
>> descending, not flying. It felt like we were about 45* nose down, but
>> the EFIS logs didn't capture anything that extreme. I was concerned
>> about entering a spin. So was the guy in the front seat--he said so
>> as it was happening...I added more power, stick neutral, and still the
>> nose was pointed down. I kept the wings more or less level but at
>> this point things seemed out of the ordinary so I got more agressive
>> with the controls. I pushed forward, adding more power. The plane
>> then seemed to fly, and I seemed to be going pretty fast, but I didn't
>> look at the airspeed. I pulled up gently and the controls eventually
>> started feeling normal again. The EFIS logs showed the whole event
>> lasted less than 10 seconds--two data captures--but it sure seemed
>> longer. We lost about 300 feet.
>>
>> I spoke to another -10 owner who has a lot of acro and formation
>> experience. He said, yeah, it'll do that...he concurred that from a
>> deep stall, an RV-10 requires extra effort to break it. That's
>> probably not a huge surprise if you think about it and expect it, but
>> in this case it gave me (and unfortunately my passengers) a little
>> concern.
>>
>> I'd be interested to hear if others have had similar experiences, and
>> if anyone has an explanation for what's going on aerodynamically.
>>
>> Dave Saylor
>> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
Sounds good! I'll pencil it in.
Cheers,
Stein Bruch
President - SteinAir, Inc.
651-460-6955
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Seano
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened
here?)
I was up experimenting with the stall in my 10. Mine is at the fwd cg with
me alone so keep that in mind. I stalled and kept the stick full aft. The
plane just buffeted and still had good aileron control. I stomped on the
rudder both directions with full aft stick and the plane just mushed along.
It would not enter a spin. Like I said I am close to the fwd CG. I have a
video of this I'll try to post later.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 2, 2013, at 10:02, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
>
> I've seen something odd like this once too. The situation was a bit
> different though from the sounds of it. Would you say that the
> elevator felt somewhat aerodynamically "disconnected" during this?
> The experience I had, you could hear the prop pitch change as it
> sounded like it quit biting the air the same, and the pitch force got
> real "sloppy", like you could have pulled or pushed and not gotten a
> lot of response at all. But, going into standard stall recovery mode
> automatically, I shoved the stick forward and it came right out of it.
> The whole thing lasted only maybe 2 seconds, but when you feel
> something like that you know how time goes slowly.
> At any rate, I think I was just so deep in the stall at the time that
> probably the wing wash interrupted the flow over the horizontal
> stabilizer, or something like that. So the elevator lost some
> effectiveness. At least that's what I attributed it to.
> It wasn't quite a normal flight situation for me, so I've been
> thinking of some day trying to recreate it up high, but I'm not sure
> if I could, without the added weight of filled seats...so I'm not sure
> if I'll bother. The airplane behaved pretty well through it, so I was
> happy for that.
>
> Tim
>
>
> On 3/2/2013 11:35 AM, Dave Saylor wrote:
>> --> <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
>>
>> Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
>> not yet flying.
>>
>> On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat. My CG range is
>> 8.4 to 16.8 (inches aft of the wing leading edge). My CG on takeoff
>> was 14.4--I ran the number before we departed because I knew the CG
>> was "aft-ish"--and the weight was 2614 lbs. Years ago during phase 1
>> we loaded the plane at aft CG, max gross, and did some stalls. I
>> don't recall anything strange at all about those maneuvers.
>>
>> First, I demonstrated an approach stall, which I've done many times.
>> My normal recovery is just to add a little power, stick neutral if
>> necessary, and the plane just flys out. On the first stall, that's
>> just how it went.
>>
>> Of course then it was time for a little "Watch this!"...
>>
>> Actually, I wanted to demonstrate the AOA audio warning,
>> "Angle-Angle-Push", which was kind of faint on the first stall. So I
>> let the stall develop further, keeping wings level with the rudder.
>> The wings rocked a bit but nothing serious. The nose stayed straight
>> ahead. Then, the nose pitched WAY down. I added power to break the
>> stall and fly it out but there was no change. It felt like we were
>> descending, not flying. It felt like we were about 45* nose down, but
>> the EFIS logs didn't capture anything that extreme. I was concerned
>> about entering a spin. So was the guy in the front seat--he said so
>> as it was happening...I added more power, stick neutral, and still
>> the nose was pointed down. I kept the wings more or less level but
>> at this point things seemed out of the ordinary so I got more
>> agressive with the controls. I pushed forward, adding more power.
>> The plane then seemed to fly, and I seemed to be going pretty fast,
>> but I didn't look at the airspeed. I pulled up gently and the
>> controls eventually started feeling normal again. The EFIS logs
>> showed the whole event lasted less than 10 seconds--two data
>> captures--but it sure seemed longer. We lost about 300 feet.
>>
>> I spoke to another -10 owner who has a lot of acro and formation
>> experience. He said, yeah, it'll do that...he concurred that from a
>> deep stall, an RV-10 requires extra effort to break it. That's
>> probably not a huge surprise if you think about it and expect it, but
>> in this case it gave me (and unfortunately my passengers) a little
>> concern.
>>
>> I'd be interested to hear if others have had similar experiences, and
>> if anyone has an explanation for what's going on aerodynamically.
>>
>> Dave Saylor
>> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
I think the CG has a lot of difference in how it behaves.
This flight I was way lighter in back and I could hold
the stick almost all the way back and not get it to do
anything funky. I added a video to this page today
just for kicks.
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/flights/20080414/index.html
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 3/2/2013 12:34 PM, Seano wrote:
>
> I was up experimenting with the stall in my 10. Mine is at the fwd cg
> with me alone so keep that in mind. I stalled and kept the stick full
> aft. The plane just buffeted and still had good aileron control. I
> stomped on the rudder both directions with full aft stick and the
> plane just mushed along. It would not enter a spin. Like I said I am
> close to the fwd CG. I have a video of this I'll try to post
> later.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 2, 2013, at 10:02, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I've seen something odd like this once too. The situation was a
>> bit different though from the sounds of it. Would you say that
>> the elevator felt somewhat aerodynamically "disconnected" during
>> this? The experience I had, you could hear the prop pitch change as
>> it sounded like it quit biting the air the same, and the pitch
>> force got real "sloppy", like you could have pulled or pushed and
>> not gotten a lot of response at all. But, going into standard
>> stall recovery mode automatically, I shoved the stick forward and
>> it came right out of it. The whole thing lasted only maybe 2
>> seconds, but when you feel something like that you know how time
>> goes slowly. At any rate, I think I was just so deep in the stall
>> at the time that probably the wing wash interrupted the flow over
>> the horizontal stabilizer, or something like that. So the elevator
>> lost some effectiveness. At least that's what I attributed it to.
>> It wasn't quite a normal flight situation for me, so I've been
>> thinking of some day trying to recreate it up high, but I'm not
>> sure if I could, without the added weight of filled seats...so I'm
>> not sure if I'll bother. The airplane behaved pretty well through
>> it, so I was happy for that.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> On 3/2/2013 11:35 AM, Dave Saylor wrote:
>>> <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10
>>> builders, not yet flying.
>>>
>>> On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat. My CG range
>>> is 8.4 to 16.8 (inches aft of the wing leading edge). My CG on
>>> takeoff was 14.4--I ran the number before we departed because I
>>> knew the CG was "aft-ish"--and the weight was 2614 lbs. Years
>>> ago during phase 1 we loaded the plane at aft CG, max gross, and
>>> did some stalls. I don't recall anything strange at all about
>>> those maneuvers.
>>>
>>> First, I demonstrated an approach stall, which I've done many
>>> times. My normal recovery is just to add a little power, stick
>>> neutral if necessary, and the plane just flys out. On the first
>>> stall, that's just how it went.
>>>
>>> Of course then it was time for a little "Watch this!"...
>>>
>>> Actually, I wanted to demonstrate the AOA audio warning,
>>> "Angle-Angle-Push", which was kind of faint on the first stall.
>>> So I let the stall develop further, keeping wings level with the
>>> rudder. The wings rocked a bit but nothing serious. The nose
>>> stayed straight ahead. Then, the nose pitched WAY down. I added
>>> power to break the stall and fly it out but there was no change.
>>> It felt like we were descending, not flying. It felt like we were
>>> about 45* nose down, but the EFIS logs didn't capture anything
>>> that extreme. I was concerned about entering a spin. So was the
>>> guy in the front seat--he said so as it was happening...I added
>>> more power, stick neutral, and still the nose was pointed down.
>>> I kept the wings more or less level but at this point things
>>> seemed out of the ordinary so I got more agressive with the
>>> controls. I pushed forward, adding more power. The plane then
>>> seemed to fly, and I seemed to be going pretty fast, but I
>>> didn't look at the airspeed. I pulled up gently and the controls
>>> eventually started feeling normal again. The EFIS logs showed
>>> the whole event lasted less than 10 seconds--two data
>>> captures--but it sure seemed longer. We lost about 300 feet.
>>>
>>> I spoke to another -10 owner who has a lot of acro and formation
>>> experience. He said, yeah, it'll do that...he concurred that
>>> from a deep stall, an RV-10 requires extra effort to break it.
>>> That's probably not a huge surprise if you think about it and
>>> expect it, but in this case it gave me (and unfortunately my
>>> passengers) a little concern.
>>>
>>> I'd be interested to hear if others have had similar experiences,
>>> and if anyone has an explanation for what's going on
>>> aerodynamically.
>>>
>>> Dave Saylor 831-750-0284 CL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
There's a huge difference between forward and aft cg's. Near the forward limit
mine just mushes, it won't really stall. Aft limit is another story, although
I've always found the stalls to be conventional.
I wonder about the "stick neutral" business. Most aircraft call for some forward
stick, for prompt stall recovery. You want to lower the angle of attack as
quickly as possible. At low speeds it takes a pretty good control deflection to
make the plane respond quickly. From a stall starting from a steep power on
climb attitude, and aft cg, I definitely need some forward stick to un-stall promptly.
How long were you flying? As I'm sure you know, if you start with cg near the aft
limit, it will move further aft as you burn gas. (Also true that if you start
near the forward limit, cg moves forward as you burn gas.)
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395431#395431
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
>Would you say that the
> elevator felt somewhat aerodynamically "disconnected" during this?
Yep, that's how it felt. No result from pushing the stick further and
further forward.
> you could hear the prop pitch change as it sounded like it quit biting the air
I felt that too. I added more and more power without the results I
expected. Usually, adding power gives an immediate result but not in
this case.
The plane didn't "snap out" like it usually does, where you feel a
clear difference between stalled vs. flying. It just felt less and
less stalled, at some point it felt normal, but not a really clear
line.
Which is very different from virtually every other mode of flight.
Everywhere else the plane just feels solid and predictable. I've told
lots of people that it just doesn't have any bad habits. Not that I'd
call this dangerous but it's good for people to be aware that some
behavior isn't perfectly linear.
I thought about this some more and so going back to Airplane 101, I'd
expect the nose to pitch down if the Hstab quits flying. Isn't that
why we have a (conservative) aft CG limit, to make sure the nose falls
first in a "freefall situation? Imagine if the tail dropped...yikes.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
Sean, that sounds pretty normal. I've seen that too, where if you
slow down gently and just ease the stick to the stop, it sort of just
mushes along and you can steer around with the rudder. If you give
the stick a sharp pull for the last couple inches you might get it to
break. That's what I'd call a normal RV-10 stall. Very gentle and
relaxed.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Seano <sean@braunandco.com> wrote:
>
> I was up experimenting with the stall in my 10. Mine is at the fwd cg with me
alone so keep that in mind. I stalled and kept the stick full aft. The plane
just buffeted and still had good aileron control. I stomped on the rudder both
directions with full aft stick and the plane just mushed along. It would not
enter a spin. Like I said I am close to the fwd CG. I have a video of this
I'll try to post later.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 2, 2013, at 10:02, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I've seen something odd like this once too. The situation was a bit
>> different though from the sounds of it. Would you say that the
>> elevator felt somewhat aerodynamically "disconnected" during this?
>> The experience I had, you could hear the prop pitch change as it
>> sounded like it quit biting the air the same, and the pitch force
>> got real "sloppy", like you could have pulled or pushed and not
>> gotten a lot of response at all. But, going into standard stall
>> recovery mode automatically, I shoved the stick forward and
>> it came right out of it. The whole thing lasted only maybe 2 seconds,
>> but when you feel something like that you know how time goes slowly.
>> At any rate, I think I was just so deep in the stall at the time
>> that probably the wing wash interrupted the flow over the horizontal
>> stabilizer, or something like that. So the elevator lost some
>> effectiveness. At least that's what I attributed it to.
>> It wasn't quite a normal flight situation for me, so I've been
>> thinking of some day trying to recreate it up high, but I'm not
>> sure if I could, without the added weight of filled seats...so
>> I'm not sure if I'll bother. The airplane behaved pretty well
>> through it, so I was happy for that.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> On 3/2/2013 11:35 AM, Dave Saylor wrote:
>>>
>>> Last weekend I took some folks on demo rides. All are -10 builders,
>>> not yet flying.
>>>
>>> On one flight, I had one big guy in the back seat. My CG range is 8.4
>>> to 16.8 (inches aft of the wing leading edge). My CG on takeoff was
>>> 14.4--I ran the number before we departed because I knew the CG was
>>> "aft-ish"--and the weight was 2614 lbs. Years ago during phase 1 we
>>> loaded the plane at aft CG, max gross, and did some stalls. I don't
>>> recall anything strange at all about those maneuvers.
>>>
>>> First, I demonstrated an approach stall, which I've done many times.
>>> My normal recovery is just to add a little power, stick neutral if
>>> necessary, and the plane just flys out. On the first stall, that's
>>> just how it went.
>>>
>>> Of course then it was time for a little "Watch this!"...
>>>
>>> Actually, I wanted to demonstrate the AOA audio warning,
>>> "Angle-Angle-Push", which was kind of faint on the first stall. So I
>>> let the stall develop further, keeping wings level with the rudder.
>>> The wings rocked a bit but nothing serious. The nose stayed straight
>>> ahead. Then, the nose pitched WAY down. I added power to break the
>>> stall and fly it out but there was no change. It felt like we were
>>> descending, not flying. It felt like we were about 45* nose down, but
>>> the EFIS logs didn't capture anything that extreme. I was concerned
>>> about entering a spin. So was the guy in the front seat--he said so
>>> as it was happening...I added more power, stick neutral, and still the
>>> nose was pointed down. I kept the wings more or less level but at
>>> this point things seemed out of the ordinary so I got more agressive
>>> with the controls. I pushed forward, adding more power. The plane
>>> then seemed to fly, and I seemed to be going pretty fast, but I didn't
>>> look at the airspeed. I pulled up gently and the controls eventually
>>> started feeling normal again. The EFIS logs showed the whole event
>>> lasted less than 10 seconds--two data captures--but it sure seemed
>>> longer. We lost about 300 feet.
>>>
>>> I spoke to another -10 owner who has a lot of acro and formation
>>> experience. He said, yeah, it'll do that...he concurred that from a
>>> deep stall, an RV-10 requires extra effort to break it. That's
>>> probably not a huge surprise if you think about it and expect it, but
>>> in this case it gave me (and unfortunately my passengers) a little
>>> concern.
>>>
>>> I'd be interested to hear if others have had similar experiences, and
>>> if anyone has an explanation for what's going on aerodynamically.
>>>
>>> Dave Saylor
>>> 831-750-0284 CL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
Bob,
Yes, I could probably stand to move the stick forward faster,
especially with aft CG.
My basic philosophy until now has been to break the stall by adding
power if possible. I figure that what I'm practicing is an approach
stall, on final or elsewhere in the pattern, close to the ground. In
that case, I want to loose as little altitude as possible so it makes
sense to me to avoid very much forward stick. That goes out the
window if it doesn't work, though, so I'm reevaluating what I've been
taught.
I wanted to stay in the stall long enough to hear the AOA through a
few cycles, so I was asking for it. We'd only be flying a few
minutes. CG probably hadn't changed much from takeoff. And, I took
the rear passenger's word for it when I input his weight in the
calculator. But he couldn't have been off by much. It seemed
reasonable. I was 2+ inches forward of the aft limit, so I didn't
examine the data with a microscope, but I did take the opportunity to
demo the W&B program before we departed.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu> wrote:
>
> There's a huge difference between forward and aft cg's. Near the forward limit
mine just mushes, it won't really stall. Aft limit is another story, although
I've always found the stalls to be conventional.
>
> I wonder about the "stick neutral" business. Most aircraft call for some forward
stick, for prompt stall recovery. You want to lower the angle of attack as
quickly as possible. At low speeds it takes a pretty good control deflection
to make the plane respond quickly. From a stall starting from a steep power on
climb attitude, and aft cg, I definitely need some forward stick to un-stall
promptly.
>
> How long were you flying? As I'm sure you know, if you start with cg near the
aft limit, it will move further aft as you burn gas. (Also true that if you start
near the forward limit, cg moves forward as you burn gas.)
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395431#395431
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
Dave, were your flaps Up when this happened?
Tim
On Mar 2, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Would you say that the
>> elevator felt somewhat aerodynamically "disconnected" during this?
>
> Yep, that's how it felt. No result from pushing the stick further and
> further forward.
>
>> you could hear the prop pitch change as it sounded like it quit biting the air
>
> I felt that too. I added more and more power without the results I
> expected. Usually, adding power gives an immediate result but not in
> this case.
>
> The plane didn't "snap out" like it usually does, where you feel a
> clear difference between stalled vs. flying. It just felt less and
> less stalled, at some point it felt normal, but not a really clear
> line.
>
> Which is very different from virtually every other mode of flight.
> Everywhere else the plane just feels solid and predictable. I've told
> lots of people that it just doesn't have any bad habits. Not that I'd
> call this dangerous but it's good for people to be aware that some
> behavior isn't perfectly linear.
>
> I thought about this some more and so going back to Airplane 101, I'd
> expect the nose to pitch down if the Hstab quits flying. Isn't that
> why we have a (conservative) aft CG limit, to make sure the nose falls
> first in a "freefall situation? Imagine if the tail dropped...yikes.
>
>
>
Message 15
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|
Has anyone come up with a good way to have the front heat duct be able to
heat the pilots side and copilots side differently? My wife is a freeze
baby, and I hate being hot. I don't there there is a temperature range that
we're both comfortable at. Dual zone climate control in our cars has saved
my sanity!
I'm guessing at the simple end of things, could I just put some eyeball
vents on the ducts? Has anyone built some sort of adjustable differential
airflow valve to go in place of the tee fitting?
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Front seat heat |
My short arms could never reach eyeball vents at my feet, in flight. Sounds like
what you want is a butterfly valve in the middle of the T that splits the heat.
Maybe driven by an electric motor?
Or duct tape covering 3/4 the opening on your side?
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395443#395443
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Front seat heat |
I have an aluminum door that is adjustable on my side only. Saves me, my wif
e has the same issue.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 2, 2013, at 13:20, Ed Kranz <ed.kranz@gmail.com> wrote:
> Has anyone come up with a good way to have the front heat duct be able to h
eat the pilots side and copilots side differently? My wife is a freeze baby,
and I hate being hot. I don't there there is a temperature range that we're
both comfortable at. Dual zone climate control in our cars has saved my san
ity!
>
> I'm guessing at the simple end of things, could I just put some eyeball ve
nts on the ducts? Has anyone built some sort of adjustable differential airf
low valve to go in place of the tee fitting?
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Another use for an RV-10: hauling an RV-12 |
We flew our RV-10 down to Oregon yesterday to become, as far as Van's employees could remember, the first ones ever to pick up an RV-12 fuselage kit and fly away with it in a -10. Great fun. Full story and pics at: http://faculty.washington.edu/dmasys/RV12inRV10.html
-Dan Masys
RV-10 N104LD
RV-12 N122LD
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
I'd buy into Tim's theory - combination of low airspeed plus some blanking of the
airflow by the wings could leave the elevators with little effectiveness until
the rotation caused by the cg location (slower for aft cg) brought them back
to normal. Prop noise change could be the inner part of the blade stalling
at low forward speed.
Dave, I'll bet you already apply forward pressure, as well as power, to recover
from an approach stall. If you didn't, the airspeed would decay even more due
to the trim feeling the prop blast and "thinking" that it's going to fast. This
is one of the hardest things to teach students, that an application of power
on final approach requires forward stick pressure, to avoid a loss of airspeed
(in most low tail airplanes). That being said, it's probably not a bad idea
to practice stalls with power off and staying off, just in case you ever find
yourself without power and trying to glide just a little more than is possible.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395446#395446
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Front seat heat |
I'm working on something that may help .....
For background, my RV-10 friend said that the back seat heat blows up
right behind his right shoulder while the left is cold.
I'm adapting a snap-vent from aircraft Spruce so the heat can be directed.
Here's where I'm at:
One prototype with just a round disk, one with a 'handle'.
and
The tube is 2"PVC pipe that fits inside the "T" holes. the ring is a
thin section of 2" pipe glued to the end ..... and no, it doesn't go
all the way around.
The tube needs to be about 2" long to fit the back seat heat vents.
I used a 3 1/4" hole saw to cut a disk out of 1/16" plastic I had laying
in my scrap bin.
A 1 7/8 hole saw cuts the hole for the PVC tube. Some sanding needs to
be done to fit the PVC tube.
I'm planning on using the red silicone to glue the snap-vent to the
plastic disk and on the PVC tube to keep it inside the vent hole.
The rear can be adjusted by the back seaters .... but the front will
have to be set on the ground.
Similarly, plastic plugs can be inserted in the "T" holes with various
size holes (think baby powder cap) to regulate the amount of air.
Actually, blocking off part of the hole with metal-tape would be easier
.......
Linn
On 3/2/2013 4:20 PM, Ed Kranz wrote:
> Has anyone come up with a good way to have the front heat duct be able
> to heat the pilots side and copilots side differently? My wife is a
> freeze baby, and I hate being hot. I don't there there is a
> temperature range that we're both comfortable at. Dual zone climate
> control in our cars has saved my sanity!
>
> I'm guessing at the simple end of things, could I just put some
> eyeball vents on the ducts? Has anyone built some sort of adjustable
> differential airflow valve to go in place of the tee fitting?
> *
>
>
> *
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: Front seat heat |
Duct tape would melt into a sticky mess but a guillotine valve would work nice.
Tim
On Mar 2, 2013, at 3:45 PM, "Bob Turner" <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu> wrote:
>
> My short arms could never reach eyeball vents at my feet, in flight. Sounds like
what you want is a butterfly valve in the middle of the T that splits the
heat. Maybe driven by an electric motor?
> Or duct tape covering 3/4 the opening on your side?
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395443#395443
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Front seat heat |
That's what mine is. I put two shoulder bolts into nutplates. One to pivot
on and one to slide down a slotted arc. The aluminum piece looks like a
small pizza slice.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@myrv10.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Front seat heat
>
> Duct tape would melt into a sticky mess but a guillotine valve would work
> nice.
> Tim
>
>
> On Mar 2, 2013, at 3:45 PM, "Bob Turner" <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>> My short arms could never reach eyeball vents at my feet, in flight.
>> Sounds like what you want is a butterfly valve in the middle of the T
>> that splits the heat. Maybe driven by an electric motor?
>> Or duct tape covering 3/4 the opening on your side?
>>
>> --------
>> Bob Turner
>> RV-10 QB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395443#395443
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
Yeah, flaps up.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
>
> Dave, were your flaps Up when this happened?
> Tim
>
>
> On Mar 2, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>> Would you say that the
>>> elevator felt somewhat aerodynamically "disconnected" during this?
>>
>> Yep, that's how it felt. No result from pushing the stick further and
>> further forward.
>>
>>> you could hear the prop pitch change as it sounded like it quit biting the
air
>>
>> I felt that too. I added more and more power without the results I
>> expected. Usually, adding power gives an immediate result but not in
>> this case.
>>
>> The plane didn't "snap out" like it usually does, where you feel a
>> clear difference between stalled vs. flying. It just felt less and
>> less stalled, at some point it felt normal, but not a really clear
>> line.
>>
>> Which is very different from virtually every other mode of flight.
>> Everywhere else the plane just feels solid and predictable. I've told
>> lots of people that it just doesn't have any bad habits. Not that I'd
>> call this dangerous but it's good for people to be aware that some
>> behavior isn't perfectly linear.
>>
>> I thought about this some more and so going back to Airplane 101, I'd
>> expect the nose to pitch down if the Hstab quits flying. Isn't that
>> why we have a (conservative) aft CG limit, to make sure the nose falls
>> first in a "freefall situation? Imagine if the tail dropped...yikes.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 Stall Characteristics (what just happened here?) |
I think mine were too. I've never had anything strange happen
when with full flaps.
Tim
On 3/2/2013 8:54 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
>
> Yeah, flaps up.
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Another use for an RV-10: hauling an RV-12 |
how cool is that...
do not archive
On Mar 2, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Dan Masys wrote:
>
> We flew our RV-10 down to Oregon yesterday to become, as far as Van's employees could remember, the first ones ever to pick up an RV-12 fuselage kit and fly away with it in a -10. Great fun. Full story and pics at: http://faculty.washington.edu/dmasys/RV12inRV10.html
>
> -Dan Masys
> RV-10 N104LD
> RV-12 N122LD
>
>
>
>
>
>
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