Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:07 AM - Re: Behind the curve, was RV-10 Stall Characteristics (jkreidler)
2. 06:26 AM - Re: go pro mounts (Richard Barnes)
3. 09:32 AM - Re: go pro mounts (Robin Marks)
4. 09:47 AM - Certifying the RV-10 (rleffler)
5. 10:40 AM - Composites for RV-10s Class (Carlos Trigo)
6. 11:04 AM - Re: Behind the curve, was RV-10 Stall Characteristics (Bob Turner)
7. 01:03 PM - Re: Behind the curve, was RV-10 Stall Characteristics (jkreidler)
8. 01:39 PM - Re: Behind the curve, was RV-10 Stall Characteristics (Bob Turner)
9. 06:28 PM - Re: go pro mounts (Strasnuts)
10. 06:50 PM - Re: Behind the curve, was RV-10 Stall Characteristics (jkreidler)
11. 07:50 PM - Re: Composites for RV-10s Class (Dave Saylor)
12. 07:50 PM - Re: Behind the curve, was RV-10 Stall Characteristics (Bob Turner)
13. 08:32 PM - Re: RV-10 down (rv10flyer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Behind the curve, was RV-10 Stall Characteristics |
All, one of the best books around to explain all of this is "Aerodynamic for Naval Aviators". The book is available for free download on the FAA's web site at the address below. Actually they have a number of free books with good info, check out: http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/00-80T-80.pdf
Since nearly every build eventually becomes a test pilot it is a good idea to understand
the basics.
Please know that below is my interpretation of behind the curve, I do not have
formal training in aerodynamics but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
If you look at page 42 of the PDF (book page 24) you see a plot of the coefficient
of lift (CL) relative to the angle of attack (AOA). At the top of the curve
the AOA increases while the CL decreases up until the wing stalls. This is
one aspect of 'behind the curve'. The second aspect of 'behind the curve' is
found on pages 46 & 47 of the PDF (book pages 28 & 29), where they talk about
the drag coefficient (CD) relative to lift (L/D). This says that as the AOA
is increased the CD will increase. The AOA which yields the best L/D is called
L/D Max (the most lift for the least drag), at AOAs greater than what produces
L/D Max you are using more AOA to produce less lift with more drag until stall.
The powerplant (gravity or Lycoming) needs to provide extra power to overcome
the extra drag to produce lift. You will notice that everything refers
to angle of attack and not airspeed as a wing will always act the same at a certain
angle of attack, not true with airspeed. Which is one reason why AOA indicators
are such neat tools; they help you know where the edge is rather than
trying to predict the edge based on airspeed combined with other factors. One
last point from page 46 of the PDF (28 of the book) notice the differences
in shapes of the curves for different airfoils. Some of the curves have fairly
flat backsides (NACA 63-006), while some have dramatic drop offs (NACA 63-009).
The flat backs are typical of training aircraft where the back side of the
curve wasnt as bad. Our RVs have steeper backsides as a result of the tradeoffs
made to get a good high speed wing with low stall speeds. This is something
that gets new RV pilots sometimes when they get on the backside, they are
not as used to how much power it can take to correct a fast sink, remember that
power can come from Lycoming or gravity, push the throttle or the stick, but
it has got to happen quicker and more aggressively than that trainer we all got
used to. I do not have a plot for the RV-10 sorry.
Feel free to correct me on this, as I said I do not have formal training in this
area of engineering. Beyond that please take some time to investigate this
for yourselves, you may learn something, or at very least find a cure to insomnia.
Above all please continue to share with the group things that surprised
you, I have not experienced this one first hand, but I remember when a slip nearly
got me (see the archives).
Thanks Jason
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395586#395586
Message 2
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Robin,
I particularly like the 4K Panasonic playback monitor for $500,000.00.
Rick
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 8:52 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: go pro mounts
Hay Sean (303),
I have been playing with these cams for some time. I don't have experience
with all of the cameras but I do have time with most form factors. While the
NFCam is a nice unit I do suggest you give the GoPro strong consideration
for a number of reasons. First the new GoPro is a wonderful design and very
good quality. GoPro has built a really good platform including the ability
to link a couple of units for both 3D and 4K filming. If you don't know what
4K <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution> is you will in a few years.
I have been in conversations with a fellow doing some amazing air footage
from his Velocity with something like 11 GoPro cams mounted to his bird. The
images are amazing. The waterproof housing and apple/android integration are
also a bonus. Throw in the best remote of all the cameras and you have a
pretty compelling package. Plus much like the RV list there is a GoPro
community that is unmatched by any other action camera company.
Another advantage to GoPro is one of the owners of FoxConn (where you cell
phone was probably made) just dropped $200 MM
<http://www.forbes.com/sites/ryanmac/2012/12/20/foxconn-buys-stake-in-camera
-maker-gopro-turning-founder-into-a-billionaire/> into GoPro for 8% of the
company valuing it at over a billion dollars. That means the GoPro eco
system is probably only going to get more robust.
I was just in FL on a wave runner doing a self-tape movie through a ski
slalom course. I used the chest mount, head mount, reversed the chest mount
for a trailing video. Held the cam very close to the waterline fore & aft
for a cool speed effect. Not too many action cam's would be comfortable or
safe in that environment. It was no problem with the GP. Ultra easy to use
with the waterproof housing. 1080P 48 FPS video looks pure! I am part way
through editing and the video could be used in a theater setting.
Good luck,
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sean Stephens
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: go pro mounts
<mailto:sean@stephensville.com> sean@stephensville.com>
Speaking of GoPro, I am about to purchase a vid cam for inside the cockpit.
I've been researching the GoPro and also the NflightCam.
<http://www.sportys.com/Pilotshop/product/16638>
http://www.sportys.com/Pilotshop/product/16638
The thing I like about the nflightcam is the special lens which reduces the
prop blur effect. Has anyone tried both? If so, plus and minus?
Thanks,
-Sean #40303
On 3/3/13 6:07 PM, Dave Bowman wrote:
> --> < <mailto:davidbowman1@verizon.net> davidbowman1@verizon.net>
>
> I'm interested
> Dave Bowman
> 40831
> N831DB Flying
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Strasnuts
> Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 9:58 AM
> To: <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com> rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: go pro mounts
>
<mailto:sean@braunandco.com> sean@braunandco.com>
>
> If anyone is interested let me know. I may start making more. I have
> this style of mount which can be used on the wing tie-downs or tail
> tie-down. I also have a fuel cap mount I'm still testing which can
> move any direction before flight by simply turning the cap. attached
> is a pic of the tie down mount. It is made of steel.
>
> --------
> 40936
> RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395516#395516>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395516#395516
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> <http://forums.matronics.com/files/goprp_mount_771.jpg>
http://forums.matronics.com//files/goprp_mount_771.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===================
bsp; - The RV10-List Email Forum -
nd much much more:
tronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===================
bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
eb Forums!
.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
===================
bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -
o:p>
bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
tronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===================
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - <http://www.avg.com> www.avg.com
- Release Date: 03/03/13
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: go pro mounts |
Yes, it's ok for a kitchen TV but I would not have one in my living room. :
-)
Robin
Do not archive
Sent from my iPad2.
On Mar 4, 2013, at 6:42 AM, "Richard Barnes" <rickbarnes@highlanddental.com
<mailto:rickbarnes@highlanddental.com>> wrote:
Robin,
I particularly like the 4K Panasonic playback monitor for $500,000.00.
Rick
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ma
tronics.com> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob
in Marks
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 8:52 PM
Subject: RE: RV10-List: go pro mounts
Hay Sean (303),
I have been playing with these cams for some time. I don't have experience
with all of the cameras but I do have time with most form factors. While th
e NFCam is a nice unit I do suggest you give the GoPro strong consideration
for a number of reasons. First the new GoPro is a wonderful design and ver
y good quality. GoPro has built a really good platform including the abilit
y to link a couple of units for both 3D and 4K filming. If you don=92t know
what 4K<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution> is you will in a few y
ears. I have been in conversations with a fellow doing some amazing air foo
tage from his Velocity with something like 11 GoPro cams mounted to his bir
d. The images are amazing. The waterproof housing and apple/android integra
tion are also a bonus. Throw in the best remote of all the cameras and you
have a pretty compelling package. Plus much like the RV list there is a GoP
ro community that is unmatched by any other action camera company.
Another advantage to GoPro is one of the owners of FoxConn (where you cell
phone was probably made) just dropped $200 MM<http://www.forbes.com/sites/r
yanmac/2012/12/20/foxconn-buys-stake-in-camera-maker-gopro-turning-founder-
into-a-billionaire/> into GoPro for 8% of the company valuing it at over a
billion dollars. That means the GoPro eco system is probably only going to
get more robust.
I was just in FL on a wave runner doing a self-tape movie through a ski sla
lom course. I used the chest mount, head mount, reversed the chest mount fo
r a trailing video. Held the cam very close to the waterline fore & aft for
a cool speed effect. Not too many action cam's would be comfortable or saf
e in that environment. It was no problem with the GP. Ultra easy to use wit
h the waterproof housing. 1080P 48 FPS video looks pure! I am part way thro
ugh editing and the video could be used in a theater setting.
Good luck,
Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@ma
tronics.com> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sea
n Stephens
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: go pro mounts
to:sean@stephensville.com>>
Speaking of GoPro, I am about to purchase a vid cam for inside the cockpit.
I've been researching the GoPro and also the NflightCam.
http://www.sportys.com/Pilotshop/product/16638
The thing I like about the nflightcam is the special lens which reduces the
prop blur effect. Has anyone tried both? If so, plus and minus?
Thanks,
-Sean #40303
On 3/3/13 6:07 PM, Dave Bowman wrote:
> --> <davidbowman1@verizon.net<mailto:davidbowman1@verizon.net>>
>
> I'm interested
> Dave Bowman
> 40831
> N831DB Flying
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Strasnuts
> Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 9:58 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com<mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV10-List: go pro mounts
>
sean@braunandco.com>>
>
> If anyone is interested let me know. I may start making more. I have
> this style of mount which can be used on the wing tie-downs or tail
> tie-down. I also have a fuel cap mount I'm still testing which can
> move any direction before flight by simply turning the cap. attached
> is a pic of the tie down mount. It is made of steel.
>
> --------
> 40936
> RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395516#395516
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/goprp_mount_771.jpg<http://forums.matr
onics.com/files/goprp_mount_771.jpg>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===================
bsp; - The RV10-List Email Forum -
nd much much more:
tronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List<http://tronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>"> h
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===================
bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
eb Forums!
.matronics.com<http://matronics.com>">http://forums.matronics.com
===================
bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -
o:p>
bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
tronics.com/contribution<http://tronics.com/contribution>"> http://www.matr
onics.com/contribution
===================
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com>
- Release Date: 03/03/13
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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| Subject: | Certifying the RV-10 |
An one sided debate on certifying the RV-10 on the red board.
http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=86327
Some of the responses are pretty comical and truly uninformed.
bob
--------
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Paint - 90% done, 90% to go stage
RV-10 #40684
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395611#395611
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| Subject: | Composites for RV-10s Class |
Hello all
This is a brief note to publicly thank the guys from Aircrafters, in
Watsonville - CA, to where I travelled several thousand miles to attend
their class on Composites for the RV-10.
It was time and money well spent, I learned a lot of tips that will help me
to do a much better job with the fiberglass parts (and there are plenty.).
I also met a bunch of fellow homebuilders, we exchanged experiences and some
ideas, not only on the FB subject itself.
Thank you Dave Saylor and Tim Farrell
Best
Carlos Trigo
P.S. - ah, well, and also had the opportunity to have a demo flight on
Dave's -10. Thanks Dave
Pretty fun and very useful stay at Watsonville.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Behind the curve, was RV-10 Stall Characteristics |
Jason, since you said it's okay to offer some corrections...
One of the hardest concepts for physics students to grasp is that when they're
holding a big rock in front of them, they are in fact doing no work (in the physics
sense), since work (also called energy) requires a force acting through
a distance.
Power (which is energy per second) cannot be directly compared to lift or drag,
which are forces. So L/D max (I find it easiest to think of the lift fixed at
the airplane's weight, and the drag varying) is where the least force is required
to keep the airplane in unaccelerated flight. But it is not where the least
power is required, because at slightly lower speeds the force is slightly greater,
but the distance per time (speed) is lower, and the product of the two
(power) is less. So you end up with minimum sink (minimum power required) speed
being less than best glide speed. Remember best glide is not an attempt to
minimize power, but rather to maximize the ratio of forward distance traveled
over vertical distance lost. In some ways comparable to the fact that maximum
range speed is higher than maximum endurance speed.
So you don't get behind the power curve (the region where it takes more power to
maintain level flight as you go slower) until you are slower than minimum sink
speed, which, as I said, is 0.76 (fourth root of 1/3) slower than best L/D
speed for an ideal plane.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395619#395619
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| Subject: | Re: Behind the curve, was RV-10 Stall Characteristics |
Thanks Bob - let me say this a bit differently, maybe we are saying the same thing.
As you reduce power to slow down and increase AOA to maintain level flight you
will continue to reduce drag, at some point (L/D Max) the drag will again start
to increase, which is the point you have moved to the backside of the curve.
You will need further increase AOA and increase power to maintain level flight,
until you slow to a speed where maximum AOA is reached and the wing stalls
regardless of power setting. Important to note the distinction, before reaching
L/D Max you can decrease power, increase AOA and maintain altitude, after
passing L/D Max you will need to increase power and AOA to hold altitude. The
higher power setting is required to offset the increased drag. In order to get
out of the stall we need to reduce the AOA either by adding enough power to
overcome the drag plus the power needed to alter the relative wind (AOA), or
by pushing the nose over to alter the relative wind (AOA) ideally both.
Question on the formula you sight, is that good for all types of airplanes, or
is the number different for say a Cessna versus a Cirrus?
Either way thanks for the feedback, and by all means let me (and the group know)
if I still dont get it, I am not sure I fully understand you distinction between
power and force as it applies here, from a theoretical standpoint I understand
perfectly. I guess when I say power I am referring to engine settings,
maybe not the best form.
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395625#395625
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| Subject: | Re: Behind the curve, was RV-10 Stall Characteristics |
Jason, not quite right yet.
Power is calculated by multiplying the force times the velocity. I know it is not
intuitive but you can get away with less power by slowing down, even though
the drag force goes up.
To make up numbers for the airplane, suppose at best L/D the force required to
overcome the drag is 100 lbs, and the speed is 80 knots. The power required is
8000 (in some strange units). Now if you slow to 70 knots, the drag is up to,
say 110 lbs. But the power required is lower, 7700 (same strange units), than
it was at best L/D, because while the drag force went up, it went up more slowly
than the speed went down. As you go still slower, the rate of increase of
drag gets larger, and eventually it goes up faster than speed goes down. That's
minimum sink speed, and slower than that you have the strange phenomenon that
level flight requires more power if you want to go even slower. BTW, as speed
goes to zero power required goes to infinity, not zero, because the drag goes
to infinity "faster" than the speed goes to zero.
The usual ideal airplane model approximations are: parasitic drag proportional
to v squared; wing lift proportional to angle of attack and v squared, and equal
to weight, induced drag equal to angle of attack times weight which makes induced
drag proportional to one divided by v squared. When you multiply the force
(drag) by v to get power you end up with terms that are proportional to v
cubed and 1/v. When you solve this equation you'll end up with v to the fourth,
that's where the fourth root comes from. When you differentiate the v cubed
term (to find the minimum) it becomes 3 v squared; that's where the 3 comes from.
Minimum sink is fourth root of 1/3 times best glide. This is all a lot simpler
if you can find graphs of "Power required" and "power available (including
prop efficiency)".
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395627#395627
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| Subject: | Re: go pro mounts |
Another mount we made and worked great. You can just turn your fuel cap to view
the fuse.
I may make this as a one piece unit to replace the top of the cap instead of Drilling
and tapping your cap like I did.
--------
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395655#395655
Attachments:
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http://forums.matronics.com//files/photo_1_113.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Behind the curve, was RV-10 Stall Characteristics |
Have a look at the Naval Aviators Handbook starting on page 353 - they explain
operating on the backside of the curve (region of reverse command). They reference
power as thrust. You are going a bit further and talking about energy management.
Thanks for your help in understanding this Bob - Jason
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395657#395657
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| Subject: | Re: Composites for RV-10s Class |
Thank you Carlos for your kind words.
It was a good class with nine participants. We demonstrated fitting a
cabin cover and several other items. Everyone got to mix some resin
and play around with various materials. And only one mild case of
exotherming.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
Do Not Archive
On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 10:38 AM, Carlos Trigo <trigo@mail.telepac.pt> wrote:
> Hello all
>
>
> This is a brief note to publicly thank the guys from Aircrafters, in
> Watsonville CA, to where I travelled several thousand miles to attend
> their class on Composites for the RV-10.
>
> It was time and money well spent, I learned a lot of tips that will help me
> to do a much better job with the fiberglass parts (and there are plenty).
>
> I also met a bunch of fellow homebuilders, we exchanged experiences and some
> ideas, not only on the FB subject itself.
>
>
> Thank you Dave Saylor and Tim Farrell
>
> Best
>
> Carlos Trigo
>
>
> P.S. ah, well, and also had the opportunity to have a demo flight on
> Daves -10. Thanks Dave
>
> Pretty fun and very useful stay at Watsonville
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Behind the curve, was RV-10 Stall Characteristics |
Yes, that's a good reference. Look at the graph of power required at the bottom
of page 98. It shows how minimum power occurs at a lower speed than max L/D,
and in fact is about 0.8 less.
This reference frequently mixes turbojet engines with propeller driving engines.
There are some important differences, explained around page 96 and following.
Turbojets tend to put out constant thrust regardless of speed ( and so put out
more power at higher speeds), while our internal combustion engines put out
constant power, not changing with speed (actually we can get a small amount of
extra power at higher speeds due to ram air pushing the manifold pressure up
a bit).
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395660#395660
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http://www.aviationinspector.com/?p=13785
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Wayne G.
SB 12/01/2009-12/01/2011
TT= 97.6
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=395662#395662
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