Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:38 AM - Re: EFIS failure checklist (James McGrew)
2. 05:53 AM - Re: EFIS failure checklist (Alan Mekler MD)
3. 05:57 AM - Re: EFIS failure checklist (Alan Mekler MD)
4. 06:23 AM - Re: EFIS failure checklist (Jim Combs)
5. 06:33 AM - Re: Re: EFIS failure checklist (Linn)
6. 07:03 AM - Re: Re: EFIS failure checklist (Rene)
7. 07:36 AM - Re: EFIS failure checklist (Kelly McMullen)
8. 08:35 AM - Re: EFIS failure checklist (jkreidler)
9. 08:48 AM - Re: EFIS failure checklist (Robin Marks)
10. 08:49 AM - seat belts (Rick Lark)
11. 11:54 AM - Re: EFIS failure checklist (Dave Saylor)
12. 11:54 AM - Re: EFIS failure checklist (Dave Saylor)
13. 11:59 AM - Re: Re: EFIS failure checklist (Dave Saylor)
14. 12:07 PM - Re: Re: EFIS failure checklist (Dave Saylor)
15. 12:19 PM - Re: EFIS failure checklist (Dave Saylor)
16. 12:19 PM - Re: EFIS failure checklist (Dave Saylor)
17. 02:10 PM - Re: EFIS failure checklist (jkreidler)
18. 02:23 PM - Re: EFIS failure checklist (Bob Turner)
19. 02:34 PM - Re: EFIS failure checklist (Bob Turner)
20. 06:42 PM - Re: Re: EFIS failure checklist (Linn)
21. 07:19 PM - Re: EFIS failure checklist (Kelly McMullen)
22. 07:32 PM - Re: Re: EFIS failure checklist (Kelly McMullen)
23. 08:05 PM - Re: seat belts (bill.peyton)
24. 10:56 PM - Re: Re: EFIS failure checklist (Dave Saylor)
25. 11:03 PM - Re: Re: EFIS failure checklist (Dave Saylor)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Dave,
I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for
various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my
POH.
>From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to lay
out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other problems).
However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure in IMC I
doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to saying this
is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these checklists
in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind of
checklists that you know by heart.
Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version shows
that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a reference
for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In my -10 I
had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a
turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I
lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of
which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency
electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things
would have to fail to lose all of those.
-Jim
N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold :(
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <
dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com> wrote:
> Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some
> suggestions about what to do.
>
> I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.
> Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists
> and added what I thought was appropriate.
>
> So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience,
> please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious
> errors. I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with
> a happy ending. Still, ya gotta try.
>
> For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea. I
> don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Just seemed prudent.
>
> For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. My only
> mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. I have aux
> standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.
>
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Dave,
On Mar 31, 2013, at 8:37 AM, James McGrew <jsmcgrew@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for
various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for
my POH.
>
> =46rom an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea
to lay out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other
problems). However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a
failure in IMC I doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm
not to saying this is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't
put these checklists in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might
be the kind of checklists that you know by heart.
>
> Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version
shows that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a
reference for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation.
In my -10 I had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI,
and a turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one.
If I lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel'
gauges (3 of which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on
my emergency electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a
lot of things would have to fail to lose all of those.
>
> -Jim
> N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold :(
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor
<dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com> wrote:
> Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some
suggestions about what to do.
>
> I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.
Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other
checklists and added what I thought was appropriate.
>
> So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience,
please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious
errors. I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC
with a happy ending. Still, ya gotta try.
>
> For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea.
I don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Just seemed
prudent.
>
> For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. My
only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. I
have aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot,
and trim.
>
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
>
>
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Dave,
If you have the D10A with the backup lithium
battery you should be all set if the AFS quits.
Alan
On Mar 31, 2013, at 8:37 AM, James McGrew <jsmcgrew@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for
various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for
my POH.
>
> =46rom an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea
to lay out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other
problems). However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a
failure in IMC I doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm
not to saying this is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't
put these checklists in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might
be the kind of checklists that you know by heart.
>
> Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version
shows that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a
reference for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation.
In my -10 I had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI,
and a turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one.
If I lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel'
gauges (3 of which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on
my emergency electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a
lot of things would have to fail to lose all of those.
>
> -Jim
> N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold :(
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor
<dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com> wrote:
> Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some
suggestions about what to do.
>
> I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.
Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other
checklists and added what I thought was appropriate.
>
> So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience,
please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious
errors. I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC
with a happy ending. Still, ya gotta try.
>
> For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea.
I don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Just seemed
prudent.
>
> For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. My
only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. I
have aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot,
and trim.
>
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
>
>
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Worse case you have altitude information displayed on the transponder (327)
in the right hand side of the display. (You can set it up to show
altitude). I also have a free app on my cell phone (GPS STATUS) that shows
altitude heading and speed as a fully isolated powered backup.
Jim C
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler@metrocast.net>wrote:
> Dave,
> On Mar 31, 2013, at 8:37 AM, James McGrew <jsmcgrew@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for
> various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my
> POH.
>
> From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to lay
> out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other problems).
> However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure in IMC I
> doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to saying this
> is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these checklists
> in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind of
> checklists that you know by heart.
>
> Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version shows
> that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a reference
> for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In my -10 I
> had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a
> turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I
> lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of
> which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency
> electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things
> would have to fail to lose all of those.
>
> -Jim
> N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold :(
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <
> dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some
>> suggestions about what to do.
>>
>> I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.
>> Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists
>> and added what I thought was appropriate.
>>
>> So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience,
>> please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious
>> errors. I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with
>> a happy ending. Still, ya gotta try.
>>
>> For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea. I
>> don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Just seemed prudent.
>>
>> For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. My
>> only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. I have
>> aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.
>>
>>
>> Dave Saylor
>> 831-750-0284 CL
>>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Some comments (IMHO).
I don't fly IMC but do use checklists ...... and have suffered my own
inflight emergencies. I think a few of us will handle emergencies
correctly, but until you really have one (hope you don't) you really
don't know how you'll react ..... will you be cool or hit the panic
button. In my emergencies I didn't even think of looking up a checklist
..... too busy. Remember the three basic items: Aviate, Communicate,
Navigate.
You should have everything in your checklist 'automatic' when something
fails but separated into categories:
The first item is 'FLY THE AIRPLANE'.
If the engine fails your 'engine checklist' covers those items pertinent
to a smooth running engine.
If something electrical fails your checklist covers things you can
change .... circuit breakers/fuses etc. although I don't recommend
changing fuses in flight, and only one attempt at resetting a circuit
breaker.
With essential buss and/or individual EFIS backup batteries you should
never have a total EFIS failure that you have any control over.
I'm also reminded of the suggestion: 'Fly the airplane as deep into the
crash as you can.'
And I have one other suggestion .... practice those emergencies every so
often, and involve your front seat passenger, if you have one, in
handling your 'emergency'. It's a safe bet that you'll forget items
unless you practice. Checklists are great when you have the time to use
them, but under pressure ...... I really don't think we will take the time.
Maybe it's just me and y'all are far more cool under pressure than I am.
Linn
PS My off-field emergencies did no further damage to the airplane nor
property on the ground. I was terribly lucky and had a whole lot of
Angels (they sit on my shoulders) to help me out.
On 3/30/2013 11:47 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
> Thanks Bob. "Airspeed: maintain" is better. I changed the autopilot
> item reply from "ON" to "PUSH AP". That way the EFIS is out of the
> system and the AP holds current heading and vertical speed by its own
> gyros. Hopefully I can stabilize things from there. Maybe it's best
> to avoid following a GPS flight plan altogether, and just fly an
> assigned heading.
>
> When I said there wouldn't be much hope, I meant in a total and
> complete failure...even then I'm still gonna try! I thoroughly expect
> to land if a single item or two should fail.
>
> Edits to checklist attached.
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 <tel:831-750-0284> CL
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu
> <mailto:bobturner@alum.rpi.edu>> wrote:
>
> <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu <mailto:bobturner@alum.rpi.edu>>
>
> Dave,
>
> I'd suggest: "Airspeed: maintain". In the heat of the moment
> there's no need to be messing around with airspeed, especially if
> pitot data is in question. You might add: "cross check with gps
> ground speed".
>
> If, like many, you can drive your autopilot off your EFIS or
> directly off a gps source, make sure you add:"Autopilot: EFIS
> source off" or however your EFIS/independent op switch is labeled.
> And of course, if your autopilot is only driven off the EFIS it
> should be "autopilot - off".
>
> Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii shut
> down all my GRT screens (put them all on an engine page,
> actually), turned off all NAV's in the panel. Using the internal
> battery powered D-6, and a battery powered, hand held VOR (could
> have been a gps, too) I was able to make a passable VOR approach
> to non precision minimums. But if the visibility were less than a
> mile, it would definitely be best to go somewhere else!
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397366#397366
>
>
> ==========
> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ==========
> MS -
> k">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> e -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Flying into Seattle about a decade ago, lost vacuum pump on an old 182 (I know,
what is a vacuum pump), I had just entered the clouds....Forget the checklist,
it was hard enough just to go through the memory items and keep the airplane
going in the right direction....declared an emergency, and the controller immediately
offered an no gyro approach and tuned me to an area with higher bases.
Once I felt I was back in control, the only indication I had of the vacuum
failure was the disconnect between the attitude indicator and turn/slip, I had
my father in law pull the instrument covers out of my flight bag and I covered
the affected instruments and it was just like I was flying with my instructor.
In my current airplane, RV-10, I have two levels of backup, with the autopilot
being the primary safety instrument......
BTW, I saw a comment about the altitude being on the transponder, that would not
work for me if I lose my EFIS, the grey code for the transponder comes from
EFIS.
Above everything else I have in the airplane panel....I will NOT fly IFR without
my Ipad (Wingx Pro is my choice). That will give me everything I need to navigate
including GPS altitude.....
Rene
N423CF
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: EFIS failure checklist
Yes, with 1/2 standard rate turns.
On 3/30/2013 8:52 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
> Kelly, isn't that the ol' "turn left--stop turn, turn right--stop
> turn" thing? Yes, it's been a while. And never frequent.
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 7:35 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com
> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>> wrote:
>
> <kellym@aviating.com <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>>
>
> That is when you call the nearest radar facility, say "I have lost
> my gyros, need no-gyro surveillance approach to nearest airport.
> Anything that limits your need to do more than stay straight and
> level. If you haven't done one, or not in many moons, good to go
> to less busy approach control that has radar approach listed in
> approach plates book, and ask for one. It is definitely different
> than doing your own nav approaches.
>
>
> On 3/30/2013 5:35 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
>
> -
> Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii shut
> down all my GRT screens (put them all on an engine page,
> actually), turned off all NAV's in the panel. Using the
> internal battery powered D-6, and a battery powered, hand held
> VOR (could have been a gps, too) I was able to make a passable
> VOR approach to non precision minimums. But if the visibility
> were less than a mile, it would definitely be best to go
> somewhere else!
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397366#397366
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>
>
> ===================================
> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ===================================
> MS -
> k">http://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> e -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Takes you back to basic failure analysis and goals. What are potential
single points of failure, besides CFI covering display or turning it off.
One example...two full size EFIS/MFD for flight instrumentation with dual
adahars. Yes, software bug is prime suspect, although if they aren't set to
display the same items, unlikely to glitch at same place. Alternator is
backed by ships battery. Ship's power backed by independent backup battery
for each screen. GNS-430W/GTN650 or better, independent of EFIS giving
ground track and ground speed.
Compared to original turn and bank, inclinometer, airspeed, altimeter and
low freq range receiver. We have come a long ways in 75 years.
The one thing I learned from a lot of partial panel time was that keeping
the dirty side down with a basic six pack keeps your brain so busy scanning
and processing your basic attitude while giving you severe case of the
"leans" that you have less than 1% left for figuring navigation and pushing
buttons, so the simpler system you have, that takes minimal brain power to
interpret/extract info, the better. That is why I suggest that if you are
in radar coverage you off load all navigation responsibility to a
controller. I seriously question the ability to be messing with a cell
phone while trying to maintain straight and level in clouds at night with
no gyros.
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Jim Combs <jiminlexky@gmail.com> wrote:
> Worse case you have altitude information displayed on the transponder
> (327) in the right hand side of the display. (You can set it up to show
> altitude). I also have a free app on my cell phone (GPS STATUS) that shows
> altitude heading and speed as a fully isolated powered backup.
>
> Jim C
> --------------------
> sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
>
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Dave, this is a good topic - I like the idea. For those of us who have been through
the entire build process we are usually aware of how the systems interact
(where the encoded altitude is coming from, where the autopilot gets its data,
etc.). If this was a factory airplane it would have an extensive POH / data
section written to explain all of this. At least I assume a Cessna 172 with
all glass has an extended POH. If nothing else it is useful to document how
all of these things are interacting to help trouble shoot when something starts
not working. Sometimes, not always, a failure can occur when you are in clear
blue on top looking at an ocean of clouds below wondering just how you are
going to get back down. In these cases you do have some time to do some basic
trouble shooting. Many will never consider selling or letting others fly our
airplanes, but documentation is key to helping new users understand how the systems
work - although I would argue no amount of documentation can replace actually
building and the decision making that went into the build. After building
an airplane I now realize just how ignorant I was back in the days I first
started to rent, even after I had purchased a factory airplane I was still in
the dark as to how these thing are really put together. A great side benefit
to this portion of our hobby is the depth of knowledge we gain about our airplanes.
It is truly ashamed that this is not reflected in our accident rates.
Sorry - now onto my question... Back when I was writing our POH I looked at an
example that had IFR procedures included, like what the basics setup of the GPS,
EFIS, and Autopilot should be for various approaches. Does anyone know where
I can find an example (I looked at the examples on Tim's site and VAF)?
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397418#397418
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
This discussion has been beneficial and reconfirms my feeling that in an emergency
when everything appears as if you are looking through a straw and your head
fills with conflicting decision paths that the safest bet is on a 100% independent
back up system on its own battery (if needed).
I was thrilled to see a new back up EFIS advertised in one of the aviation magazines
I receive. Its a sweet little unit that appears to be well designed. After
reading of its capabilities and watching the company video I was impressed
with the SAM back up EFIS. I had to dig a little deeper to find the unit pricing.
$10,800.00. Bahhhahahha
Those poor bastards in the certified world will probably have $15K once installed
by a certified mechanic. The SAM is a unit that is comparable to the TT Gemini
EFIS I have in my 8A for $1,300.
I have been very pleased and impressed with my TT Gemini EFIS and I feel comfortable
using that as my sole navigation device in an emergency. For $15K I can
install 3 TT Gemini back up units each with its own back up battery, buy two Dynon
D1 pocket EFIS, buy 3 iPads and an iPad mini plus a years worth of AV gas.
My point is there are some quality backup devices that will provide full 6 pack
info in a small footprint that are eminently affordable. Retrofitting for a TT
Gemini or the like is a pretty simple task and gives great peace of mind should
primary instruments start going dark on you.
Robin
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Hi all, a question for the Canadian RV10 builders. I had a pre cover
inspection done yesterday and the inspector stated that seat belts had to
be TSO'd. Does anyone know if Vans belts are up to the standard we require
in Canada? Vans web site does say the belts meet certification standards,
so I would have to assume they are ok with Transport Canada too.
Anyone know for sure?
Thx, Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Jim, as Linn touched on as well, the checklist is to verify that I'm on the
right track. I don't expect to be calm enough to know I'm out of control
and also cooly reach for the checklist. As you've said, memorize the first
items (Autopilot:AP, Refer to backups) and then use the checklist to
refocus and do things in the right order.
I think referring to the checklist at some point is very important. A few
things have to be automatic though.
As far as how to set up equipment, the AFS manual is pretty good to get you
in the ballpark for normal operations. Everyone has preferences and
training that makes each setup unique. It's good to write it down, though,
to force yourself to think about it. I've modified my checklist a bunch of
times to fine tune it and to account for changing equipment.
I don't have a spinning mass gyro. If I loose all attitude reference it's
up to the autopilot's separate gyros and whatever info I can cobble
together. If I built it again, or if I do a remodel, I'd add one. My
thinking has changed over the years to want to now include at least a TC.
But a decent electric attitude indicator is pretty dang expensive. A TC
is a lot less and probably more reliable for a given dollar amount.
That's a whole different thread though, I was hoping for (and getting) some
feedback on the structure of the checklist.
Thanks!
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 5:37 AM, James McGrew <jsmcgrew@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for
> various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my
> POH.
>
> From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to lay
> out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other problems).
> However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure in IMC I
> doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to saying this
> is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these checklists
> in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind of
> checklists that you know by heart.
>
> Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version shows
> that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a reference
> for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In my -10 I
> had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a
> turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I
> lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of
> which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency
> electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things
> would have to fail to lose all of those.
>
> -Jim
> N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold :(
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <
> dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some
>> suggestions about what to do.
>>
>> I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.
>> Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists
>> and added what I thought was appropriate.
>>
>> So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience,
>> please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious
>> errors. I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with
>> a happy ending. Still, ya gotta try.
>>
>> For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea. I
>> don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Just seemed prudent.
>>
>> For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. My
>> only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. I have
>> aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.
>>
>>
>> Dave Saylor
>> 831-750-0284 CL
>>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Somebody said it's not the stuff you know about that gets you, it's the
stuff you don't know about...I do expect to rely on the D10A if the AFS
fails. I just want to be able to get from one to the other without going
too far into the weeds.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 5:56 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler@metrocast.net>wrote:
> Dave,
> If you have the D10A with the backup lithium
> battery you should be all set if the AFS quits.
> Alan
>
> On Mar 31, 2013, at 8:37 AM, James McGrew <jsmcgrew@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for
> various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my
> POH.
>
> From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to lay
> out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other problems).
> However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure in IMC I
> doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to saying this
> is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these checklists
> in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind of
> checklists that you know by heart.
>
> Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version shows
> that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a reference
> for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In my -10 I
> had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a
> turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I
> lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of
> which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency
> electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things
> would have to fail to lose all of those.
>
> -Jim
> N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold :(
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <
> dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some
>> suggestions about what to do.
>>
>> I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.
>> Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists
>> and added what I thought was appropriate.
>>
>> So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience,
>> please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious
>> errors. I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with
>> a happy ending. Still, ya gotta try.
>>
>> For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea. I
>> don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Just seemed prudent.
>>
>> For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. My
>> only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. I have
>> aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.
>>
>>
>> Dave Saylor
>> 831-750-0284 CL
>>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Good point to cover the inop instruments. I don't know if the big red X on
the AFS or grey screen on the D10A will suffice to make me not want to look
at them. Hopefully I could ignore them but I've heard at least one study
that says they're irresistible to our eyeballs, even knowing they're inop.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 7:03 AM, Rene <rene@felker.com> wrote:
>
> Flying into Seattle about a decade ago, lost vacuum pump on an old 182 (I
> know, what is a vacuum pump), I had just entered the clouds....Forget the
> checklist, it was hard enough just to go through the memory items and kee
p
> the airplane going in the right direction....declared an emergency, and t
he
> controller immediately offered an no gyro approach and tuned me to an are
a
> with higher bases. Once I felt I was back in control, the only indicatio
n
> I had of the vacuum failure was the disconnect between the attitude
> indicator and turn/slip, I had my father in law pull the instrument cover
s
> out of my flight bag and I covered the affected instruments and it was ju
st
> like I was flying with my instructor.
>
> In my current airplane, RV-10, I have two levels of backup, with the
> autopilot being the primary safety instrument......
>
> BTW, I saw a comment about the altitude being on the transponder, that
> would not work for me if I lose my EFIS, the grey code for the transponde
r
> comes from EFIS.
>
> Above everything else I have in the airplane panel....I will NOT fly IFR
> without my Ipad (Wingx Pro is my choice). That will give me everything I
> need to navigate including GPS altitude.....
>
> Rene=99
> N423CF
> 801-721-6080
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
> Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 10:00 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: EFIS failure checklist
>
>
> Yes, with 1/2 standard rate turns.
>
> On 3/30/2013 8:52 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
> > Kelly, isn't that the ol' "turn left--stop turn, turn right--stop
> > turn" thing? Yes, it's been a while. And never frequent.
> >
> > Dave Saylor
> > 831-750-0284 CL
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 7:35 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com
> > <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>> wrote:
> >
> > <kellym@aviating.com <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>>
> >
> > That is when you call the nearest radar facility, say "I have lost
> > my gyros, need no-gyro surveillance approach to nearest airport.
> > Anything that limits your need to do more than stay straight and
> > level. If you haven't done one, or not in many moons, good to go
> > to less busy approach control that has radar approach listed in
> > approach plates book, and ask for one. It is definitely different
> > than doing your own nav approaches.
> >
> >
> > On 3/30/2013 5:35 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
> >
> > -
> > Finally, all is definitely not lost. My last IPC the cfii shut
> > down all my GRT screens (put them all on an engine page,
> > actually), turned off all NAV's in the panel. Using the
> > internal battery powered D-6, and a battery powered, hand held
> > VOR (could have been a gps, too) I was able to make a passable
> > VOR approach to non precision minimums. But if the visibility
> > were less than a mile, it would definitely be best to go
> > somewhere else!
> >
> > --------
> > Bob Turner
> > RV-10 QB
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397366#397366
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> >
> >
> >
> > ======================
=============
> > " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> > ======================
=============
> > MS -
> > k">http://forums.matronics.com
> > ======================
=============
> > e -
> > -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> > t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> > ======================
=============
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *
> >
> >
> > *
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
J
=8Bason, I think I put a reply to you in another post...anyway, the A
FS
manual is pretty good at getting you set up for different scenarios. They
don't use a checklist format, more of a paragraph description, but you can
glean the information from that. Of course you have to using similar
equipment--digiflght or AFS autopilot and G430/530. They might have
procedures for the GTNs by now.=8B
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:35 AM, jkreidler
<jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com>wrote:
> jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com>
>
> Dave, this is a good topic - I like the idea. For those of us who have
> been through the entire build process we are usually aware of how the
> systems interact (where the encoded altitude is coming from, where the
> autopilot gets its data, etc.). If this was a factory airplane it would
> have an extensive POH / data section written to explain all of this. At
> least I assume a Cessna 172 with all glass has an extended POH. If nothi
ng
> else it is useful to document how all of these things are interacting to
> help trouble shoot when something starts not working. Sometimes, not
> always, a failure can occur when you are in clear blue on top looking at
an
> ocean of clouds below wondering just how you are going to get back down.
> In these cases you do have some time to do some basic trouble shooting.
> Many will never consider selling or letting others fly our airplanes, bu
t
> documentation is key to helping new users understand how the systems work
-
> although I would argue no amount of do!
> cumentation can replace actually building and the decision making that
> went into the build. After building an airplane I now realize just how
> ignorant I was back in the days I first started to rent, even after I had
> purchased a factory airplane I was still in the dark as to how these thin
g
> are really put together. A great side benefit to this portion of our hob
by
> is the depth of knowledge we gain about our airplanes. It is truly asham
ed
> that this is not reflected in our accident rates.
>
> Sorry - now onto my question... Back when I was writing our POH I looked
> at an example that had IFR procedures included, like what the basics setu
p
> of the GPS, EFIS, and Autopilot should be for various approaches. Does
> anyone know where I can find an example (I looked at the examples on Tim'
s
> site and VAF)?
>
> --------
> Jason Kreidler
> 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
> Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
> N44YH - Flying - #40617
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397418#397418
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Is that the L3 unit? I remember seeing the price and thinking oh brother.
I'd rather install a vacuum system, and buy the 3 indicators that are
gonna to fail over a couple thousand hours.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Robin Marks <robin@painttheweb.com> wrote:
>
> This discussion has been beneficial and reconfirms my feeling that in an
> emergency when everything appears as if you are looking through a straw and
> your head fills with conflicting decision paths that the safest bet is on a
> 100% independent back up system on its own battery (if needed).
> I was thrilled to see a new back up EFIS advertised in one of the aviation
> magazines I receive. Its a sweet little unit that appears to be well
> designed. After reading of its capabilities and watching the company video
> I was impressed with the SAM back up EFIS. I had to dig a little deeper to
> find the unit pricing. $10,800.00. Bahhhahahha
> Those poor bastards in the certified world will probably have $15K once
> installed by a certified mechanic. The SAM is a unit that is comparable to
> the TT Gemini EFIS I have in my 8A for $1,300.
> I have been very pleased and impressed with my TT Gemini EFIS and I feel
> comfortable using that as my sole navigation device in an emergency. For
> $15K I can install 3 TT Gemini back up units each with its own back up
> battery, buy two Dynon D1 pocket EFIS, buy 3 iPads and an iPad mini plus a
> years worth of AV gas.
> My point is there are some quality backup devices that will provide full 6
> pack info in a small footprint that are eminently affordable. Retrofitting
> for a TT Gemini or the like is a pretty simple task and gives great peace
> of mind should primary instruments start going dark on you.
>
> Robin
>
>
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
I agree I'll have my hands full. Geez, I could barely keep up with
trimming the airplane during an approach til I installed autotrim.
I've already decided that just about any little glitch is pretty serious,
in which case I'm asking for as much help as I can get. Maybe a delay
vector to sort things out or maybe the E word...it's even on the checklist
as a reminder that it's an option.
Again, aviate, navigate, communicate.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 7:35 AM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com> wrote:
> Takes you back to basic failure analysis and goals. What are potential
> single points of failure, besides CFI covering display or turning it off.
> One example...two full size EFIS/MFD for flight instrumentation with dual
> adahars. Yes, software bug is prime suspect, although if they aren't set to
> display the same items, unlikely to glitch at same place. Alternator is
> backed by ships battery. Ship's power backed by independent backup battery
> for each screen. GNS-430W/GTN650 or better, independent of EFIS giving
> ground track and ground speed.
> Compared to original turn and bank, inclinometer, airspeed, altimeter and
> low freq range receiver. We have come a long ways in 75 years.
> The one thing I learned from a lot of partial panel time was that keeping
> the dirty side down with a basic six pack keeps your brain so busy scanning
> and processing your basic attitude while giving you severe case of the
> "leans" that you have less than 1% left for figuring navigation and pushing
> buttons, so the simpler system you have, that takes minimal brain power to
> interpret/extract info, the better. That is why I suggest that if you are
> in radar coverage you off load all navigation responsibility to a
> controller. I seriously question the ability to be messing with a cell
> phone while trying to maintain straight and level in clouds at night with
> no gyros.
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Jim Combs <jiminlexky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Worse case you have altitude information displayed on the transponder
>> (327) in the right hand side of the display. (You can set it up to show
>> altitude). I also have a free app on my cell phone (GPS STATUS) that shows
>> altitude heading and speed as a fully isolated powered backup.
>>
>> Jim C
>> --------------------
>
>
>> sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
When using a backup EFIS how do you know which one is failing? Does the software
of the EFIS identify that it is failing? When we decided to go with mechanical
backups of the altimeter, compass, ADI, and airspeed it was so we could go
back to the old fashioned way of diagnosing which system was failing. Of course
back then none of us had experience glass cockpits and how they fail. I
am really not sure which way I would go today. I just wonder when in the soup
if I had primary and backup EFISs' not agreeing which direction I would go.
As someone just said - it's what you don't know....
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397452#397452
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Jason, I think that is why many are recommending 3 sources of information. For
me, the Trio autopilot will display a symbolic turn coordinator. So if main and
backup efis don't agree there is a tie breaker. Also don't forget that old fashioned
wet compass. If your efis shows wings level but that compass is moving
chances are good that you are not wings level. GPS based moving map will also
show if the wings aren't level.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397455#397455
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
Q: Does the Air Force still use PAR approaches? Years ago we civilians could sometimes
practice them, as long as we did not actually touch down. If you were
to find yourself in a bad situation in bad weather the PAR is vastly superior
to an ASR approach.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397457#397457
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
I believe most EFIS panels will tell you exactly what fails ...... when
the compass/ahars fails it's usually no send data, not erroneous data,
although that may happen in some instances. Degrading instruments (such
as with vacuum failure or gyro failure) are a thing of the past.
Electronics, once passed the infant failure mode are pretty reliable,
but not bullet proof.
On my systems (MGL Odysseys) when items fail I get "X"s or FAIL messages
or alarms when data goes out of limits. It all depends on the system
and how it's programmed.
Linn
On 3/31/2013 5:09 PM, jkreidler wrote:
>
> When using a backup EFIS how do you know which one is failing? Does the software
of the EFIS identify that it is failing? When we decided to go with mechanical
backups of the altimeter, compass, ADI, and airspeed it was so we could
go back to the old fashioned way of diagnosing which system was failing. Of
course back then none of us had experience glass cockpits and how they fail.
I am really not sure which way I would go today. I just wonder when in the soup
if I had primary and backup EFISs' not agreeing which direction I would go.
As someone just said - it's what you don't know....
>
> --------
> Jason Kreidler
> 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
> Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
> N44YH - Flying - #40617
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397452#397452
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
If you really want a spinning gyro, a turn and bank will give you a more
correct indication of whether you are turning or not than a turn
coordinator will. The TC responds to bank or turn, and can be confused for
pitch that it doesn't have.
On the other hand, it is pretty hard to beat either a Dynon D1 EFIS, or I
think it is the D6 that is similar cost but adds static system connection
for real airspeed/altitude instead of GPS derived ground speed and
altitude. Also avoids needing to switch mental gears from EFIS to round
dial.
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Dave Saylor <
dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't have a spinning mass gyro. If I loose all attitude reference
> it's up to the autopilot's separate gyros and whatever info I can cobble
> together. If I built it again, or if I do a remodel, I'd add one. My
> thinking has changed over the years to want to now include at least a TC.
> But a decent electric attitude indicator is pretty dang expensive. A TC
> is a lot less and probably more reliable for a given dollar amount.
>
> That's a whole different thread though, I was hoping for (and getting)
> some feedback on the structure of the checklist.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dave Saylor
> 831-750-0284 CL
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 5:37 AM, James McGrew <jsmcgrew@alum.mit.edu>wrote:
>
>> Dave,
>>
>> I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for
>> various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my
>> POH.
>>
>> From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to
>> lay out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other
>> problems). However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure
>> in IMC I doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to
>> saying this is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these
>> checklists in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind
>> of checklists that you know by heart.
>>
>> Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version
>> shows that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a
>> reference for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In
>> my -10 I had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a
>> turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I
>> lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of
>> which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency
>> electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things
>> would have to fail to lose all of those.
>>
>> -Jim
>> N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold :(
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <
>> dave.saylor.aircrafters@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some
>>> suggestions about what to do.
>>>
>>> I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case.
>>> Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists
>>> and added what I thought was appropriate.
>>>
>>> So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience,
>>> please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious
>>> errors. I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with
>>> a happy ending. Still, ya gotta try.
>>>
>>> For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea.
>>> I don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Just seemed prudent.
>>>
>>> For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. My
>>> only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. I have
>>> aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave Saylor
>>> 831-750-0284 CL
>>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
They still show in my approach plate books. Policy varies by command
whether you can get a practice or not. I know Luke AFB does not allow,
not sure about Davis Monthan or Yuma MCAS. If you are skilled enough or
desperate enough, they can talk you all the way to touch down, but it
will take the E word to get them to continue guidance below minimums
that are normally 200 & one half.
On 3/31/2013 2:34 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
>
> Q: Does the Air Force still use PAR approaches? Years ago we civilians could
sometimes practice them, as long as we did not actually touch down. If you were
to find yourself in a bad situation in bad weather the PAR is vastly superior
to an ASR approach.
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397457#397457
>
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Rick,
TSOd belts come with a certification tag attached to the belt. The belts i received
from Vans did not have any documentation. I would check with vans on the
cert. documents if they exist.
--------
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397490#397490
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
I've seen my AFS fail, on the ground. The AHRS blew something inside and
it literally smoked. It put a big red X on the screen. I flew it home, 12
miles, VMC, and the X remained the whole time. Very obvious.
I've also seen my D10A fail, indicating about a 10* bank but otherwise
normal. No outward signs telling me it failed, just a clearly false
indication. If it isn't spooled up it sometimes reverts to a grey-on-grey
screen to indicate that all is not well, instead of the normal blue/brown
screen. But it didn't do that when it indicated the false bank.
So, no real answer to that question--best case, some do and some don't.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 2:09 PM, jkreidler
<jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com>wrote:
> jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com>
>
> When using a backup EFIS how do you know which one is failing? Does the
> software of the EFIS identify that it is failing? When we decided to go
> with mechanical backups of the altimeter, compass, ADI, and airspeed it was
> so we could go back to the old fashioned way of diagnosing which system was
> failing. Of course back then none of us had experience glass cockpits and
> how they fail. I am really not sure which way I would go today. I just
> wonder when in the soup if I had primary and backup EFISs' not agreeing
> which direction I would go. As someone just said - it's what you don't
> know....
>
> --------
> Jason Kreidler
> 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
> Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
> N44YH - Flying - #40617
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397452#397452
>
>
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: EFIS failure checklist |
I've seen my AFS fail, on the ground. The AHRS blew something inside and
it literally smoked. It put a big red X on the screen. I flew it home, 12
miles, VMC, and the X remained the whole time. Very obvious.
I've also seen my D10A fail, indicating about a 10* bank but otherwise
normal. No outward signs telling me it failed, just a clearly false
indication. If it isn't spooled up it sometimes reverts to a grey-on-grey
screen to indicate that all is not well, instead of the normal blue/brown
screen. But it didn't do that when it indicated the false bank.
So, no real answer to that question--best case, some do and some don't.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 2:09 PM, jkreidler
<jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com>wrote:
> jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com>
>
> When using a backup EFIS how do you know which one is failing? Does the
> software of the EFIS identify that it is failing? When we decided to go
> with mechanical backups of the altimeter, compass, ADI, and airspeed it was
> so we could go back to the old fashioned way of diagnosing which system was
> failing. Of course back then none of us had experience glass cockpits and
> how they fail. I am really not sure which way I would go today. I just
> wonder when in the soup if I had primary and backup EFISs' not agreeing
> which direction I would go. As someone just said - it's what you don't
> know....
>
> --------
> Jason Kreidler
> 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
> Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
> N44YH - Flying - #40617
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397452#397452
>
>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|