Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:22 AM - power settings (Alan Mekler MD)
2. 03:58 AM - Re: power settings (Michael Kraus)
3. 05:17 AM - Re: power settings (James McGrew)
4. 05:36 AM - Re: power settings (Alan Mekler MD)
5. 05:43 AM - Re: Re: Door locks (Rick Lark)
6. 05:47 AM - Re: power settings (James McGrew)
7. 06:03 AM - Re: power settings (bill.peyton)
8. 06:55 AM - Re: Re: Door locks (Carl Froehlich)
9. 06:59 AM - Re: Re: power settings (Robin Marks)
10. 07:39 AM - Re: Re: power settings (Kelly McMullen)
11. 09:17 AM - FWF Scat Hose Clamps? (Sean Stephens)
12. 12:56 PM - Re: FWF Scat Hose Clamps? (bill.peyton)
13. 01:14 PM - Bob Archer Antenna RG cable attachment nuts (Mike Whisky)
14. 02:19 PM - Re: FWF Scat Hose Clamps? (Kelly McMullen)
15. 03:16 PM - Re: FWF Scat Hose Clamps? (Sean Stephens)
16. 06:16 PM - Door Question (Vernon Franklin)
17. 08:01 PM - Re: Door Question (davidsoutpost@comcast.net)
18. 08:03 PM - Re: Door Question (Bob Turner)
19. 08:26 PM - Re: power settings (rv10flyer)
20. 08:29 PM - Re: FWF Scat Hose Clamps? (rv10flyer)
21. 09:50 PM - Re: Re: power settings (Jae Chang)
22. 11:02 PM - Re: Re: power settings (Robin Marks)
Message 1
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just curious does anybody reduce power after takeoff or use pull power for the
climb?
also what mp and rpm do you use in cruise(altitude dependent)
Alan
N668G 205 hrs
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| Subject: | Re: power settings |
I stay at 2700 (full power) to about 500' agl, then deduce power to about 24
50 squared until I'm at the desired altitude. My reasoning? I just don't
like the engine spinning that fast for very long and at 500', I should be a
ble to make it back to the runway.....
I did not have a lot of previous c/s prop experience so I am curious to see
what others say....
-Mike Kraus
RV-4 sold :-(
RV-10 flying :-)
KitFox SS7 Radial building :-)
On Apr 27, 2013, at 6:20 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler@metrocast.net> wrote:
>
> just curious does anybody reduce power after takeoff or use pull power for
the climb?
> also what mp and rpm do you use in cruise(altitude dependent)
>
> Alan
> N668G 205 hrs
>
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| Subject: | Re: power settings |
There's a great book called 'Fly The Engine' by Kas Thomas. It has a lot of
good information I didn't learn in my flight training. I also learned some
good tips from my transition training with Mike Seager.
For my -10: As for throttle, for a cross country flight I wouldn't touch
the throttle until initial descent. After lifting off at 2700, I would
reduce RPM to 2600 for the initial climb out. Upon reaching 800' AGL I'd
reduce RPM to 2500 for the climb. I'd lean fuel flow by 3% every 1000' of
climb (roughly 0.5 gph per 1000'). I would climb to usually between 10k and
12.5k. At level off I would set the RPM between 2250 and 2450 and lean for
cruise. I leaned 50 degrees LOP. I switched tanks every 30 minutes and
changed the RPM every other tank change (every hour). I would, for example,
change RPM from 2450 to 2370 and re-lean. This is to help ensure you don't
inadvertently spend to much time on some component's harmonic in the engine.
-Jim
On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 6:20 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler@metrocast.net>wrote:
>
> just curious does anybody reduce power after takeoff or use pull power for
> the climb?
> also what mp and rpm do you use in cruise(altitude dependent)
>
> Alan
> N668G 205 hrs
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: power settings |
Jim,
Thanks for your reply. I was listening to a mike bush webinar and his was bi
g on low rpm high manifold pressures just the opposite if how i was tought.
Alan
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 27, 2013, at 8:17 AM, James McGrew <jsmcgrew@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> There's a great book called 'Fly The Engine' by Kas Thomas. It has a lot o
f good information I didn't learn in my flight training. I also learned som
e good tips from my transition training with Mike Seager.
>
> For my -10: As for throttle, for a cross country flight I wouldn't touch t
he throttle until initial descent. After lifting off at 2700, I would reduce
RPM to 2600 for the initial climb out. Upon reaching 800' AGL I'd reduce RP
M to 2500 for the climb. I'd lean fuel flow by 3% every 1000' of climb (roug
hly 0.5 gph per 1000'). I would climb to usually between 10k and 12.5k. At l
evel off I would set the RPM between 2250 and 2450 and lean for cruise. I le
aned 50 degrees LOP. I switched tanks every 30 minutes and changed the RPM e
very other tank change (every hour). I would, for example, change RPM from 2
450 to 2370 and re-lean. This is to help ensure you don't inadvertently spen
d to much time on some component's harmonic in the engine.
>
> -Jim
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 6:20 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler@metrocast.net> wr
ote:
>>
>> just curious does anybody reduce power after takeoff or use pull power fo
r the climb?
>> also what mp and rpm do you use in cruise(altitude dependent)
>>
>> Alan
>> N668G 205 hrs
>>
>> ==========
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>
>
>
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>
Message 5
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Aha, that's exactly what I need to know. Thx Jim. I did go to Home Depot
and buy 3- 5/8" cam locks but I then decided they were too poor a quality
to put in an airplane. I went to ACS and checked out their locks and I
then went to a local locksmith. He had better keyed locks, but he also has
the tubular cam locks which are way better design, quality etc. Of course
they're more money too. I intend to use a push to start switch in my plane
thus I don't need a keyed ignition switch.
Thx for every ones help.
Rick
On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 12:33 AM, Jim Berry <jimberry@qwest.net> wrote:
>
> My door locks are the same length as the baggage lock. If you want
> everything keyed alike, you can special order a keyed ignition switch and 3
> door/baggage locks from ACS.
>
> Jim Berry
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399466#399466
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: power settings |
Couple things I forgot to mention above. I always took off full throttle.
Once airborne, if the MAP was >RPM I would reduce throttle for the climb to
keep from being over squared. It doesn't take long to get the throttle all
the back in at 25 squared. MAP continues to go down from there, at the
altitudes I cruised at MAP was never an issue.
-Jim
On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler@metrocast.net>wrote:
> Jim,
> Thanks for your reply. I was listening to a mike bush webinar and his was
> big on low rpm high manifold pressures just the opposite if how i was
> tought.
> Alan
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 27, 2013, at 8:17 AM, James McGrew <jsmcgrew@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> There's a great book called 'Fly The Engine' by Kas Thomas. It has a lot
> of good information I didn't learn in my flight training. I also learned
> some good tips from my transition training with Mike Seager.
>
> For my -10: As for throttle, for a cross country flight I wouldn't touch
> the throttle until initial descent. After lifting off at 2700, I would
> reduce RPM to 2600 for the initial climb out. Upon reaching 800' AGL I'd
> reduce RPM to 2500 for the climb. I'd lean fuel flow by 3% every 1000' of
> climb (roughly 0.5 gph per 1000'). I would climb to usually between 10k and
> 12.5k. At level off I would set the RPM between 2250 and 2450 and lean for
> cruise. I leaned 50 degrees LOP. I switched tanks every 30 minutes and
> changed the RPM every other tank change (every hour). I would, for example,
> change RPM from 2450 to 2370 and re-lean. This is to help ensure you don't
> inadvertently spend to much time on some component's harmonic in the engine.
>
> -Jim
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 6:20 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler@metrocast.net>wrote:
>
>>
>> just curious does anybody reduce power after takeoff or use pull power
>> for the climb?
>> also what mp and rpm do you use in cruise(altitude dependent)
>>
>> Alan
>> N668G 205 hrs
>>
>> ==========
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: power settings |
A lot of how you choose to climb has to do with how much fuel you want to burn.
Personally, after 1500 agl, I reduce power to 24/2400. This gives me more than
adequate climb, 800 fpm and 120-130kts. The fuel burn rate goes way down.
I continue to lean in the climb to maintain takeoff egts until at cruise altitude.
I then set up for 8K + ft cruise and 25-40 deg LOP 65% power @ 2300 rpm.
This gives me roughly 165 kts TAS and fuel burn of 11 to 11.5 GPH depending
on the day.
There are some that do the big mixture pull and climb LOP, I have not tried that
yet. Not brave enough.....
--------
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399479#399479
Message 8
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I use tubular key locks on planes as I find it is much harder to break off a
round key compared to a flat key. I don't lock the canopy/doors as I'd
rather have something stolen out of the panel instead of damage from forcing
a lock. I also do not use an ignition key other than a "start permissive"
key in series with the starter button. This prevents someone from spinning
the prop with the starter. For me spam can type single key start/mag select
switches are a source of unacceptable single point failure risk - and not
compatible with redundant power distribution schemes.
Both planes use Fort Lock MFW1038-80 (as example) cam locks for the baggage
door. These are made in America with heavy nickel plating. They are sold
under a variety of brand names and run less than $10 each.
Carl
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Lark
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Door locks
Aha, that's exactly what I need to know. Thx Jim. I did go to Home Depot
and buy 3- 5/8" cam locks but I then decided they were too poor a quality to
put in an airplane. I went to ACS and checked out their locks and I then
went to a local locksmith. He had better keyed locks, but he also has the
tubular cam locks which are way better design, quality etc. Of course
they're more money too. I intend to use a push to start switch in my plane
thus I don't need a keyed ignition switch.
Thx for every ones help.
Rick
On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 12:33 AM, Jim Berry <jimberry@qwest.net> wrote:
My door locks are the same length as the baggage lock. If you want
everything keyed alike, you can special order a keyed ignition switch and 3
door/baggage locks from ACS.
Jim Berry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399466#399466
==========
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: power settings |
I have a very talented instructor airline pilot friend that says DON'T TOUCH A
THING after takeoff till you reach an altitude that you can safely return to the
airport. That includes flap retract. He says if you are going to have a problem
it will likely be on First Action either electrical or mechanical.
After you can make the field continue as you wish.
Currently at the West Coast Formation Clinic. Wish me luck!
Robin
"bill.peyton" <peyton.b@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
A lot of how you choose to climb has to do with how much fuel you want to burn.
Personally, after 1500 agl, I reduce power to 24/2400. This gives me more than
adequate climb, 800 fpm and 120-130kts. The fuel burn rate goes way down.
I continue to lean in the climb to maintain takeoff egts until at cruise altitude.
I then set up for 8K + ft cruise and 25-40 deg LOP 65% power @ 2300 rpm.
This gives me roughly 165 kts TAS and fuel burn of 11 to 11.5 GPH depending
on the day.
There are some that do the big mixture pull and climb LOP, I have not tried that
yet. Not brave enough.....
--------
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399479#399479
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: power settings |
I wonder where that instructor got his mechanical knowledge. Certainly
is telling you to operate differently than he does in his day job. I
guarantee you that all airline jets retract gear and reduce flaps long
before they could glide back to the airport. As a matter of fact, I
remember DC6's and 7's retracting gear as soon as they were 10 ft in the
air with barely positive rate of climb, because they needed the drag
reduction. I reduce flap setting when the angle of climb is no longer
needed to clear obstacles. You will glide better without flaps. I
reduce rpm at 800-1000 AGL for noise abatement and to reduce stress on
the prop. I keep full throttle until leveling off. Had to be amused by
the "oversquare" comments. Flat (horizontally opposed) engines have no
issues of being oversquare. Every aircraft with a fixed pitch prop runs
oversquare on takeoff. If it didn't, you would have to reduce power as
soon as the nose was lowered for cruise to keep from exceeding red line.
That whole over/under square discussion comes from radial engines that
turn much slower to start with.
As far as I know, no one has ever done a thorough, statistically sound,
analysis of failure at first power reduction or at first configuration
change. I believe it to be one of aviation's most strongly held old
wive's tale. Probably related to takeoffs with unairworthy aircraft to
begin with, that the failure would occur soon after takeoff regardless
of whether the controls were moved.
Kelly
On 4/27/2013 6:59 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>
> I have a very talented instructor airline pilot friend that says DON'T TOUCH
A THING after takeoff till you reach an altitude that you can safely return to
the airport. That includes flap retract. He says if you are going to have a problem
it will likely be on First Action either electrical or mechanical.
> After you can make the field continue as you wish.
> Currently at the West Coast Formation Clinic. Wish me luck!
>
> Robin
>
> "bill.peyton" <peyton.b@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> A lot of how you choose to climb has to do with how much fuel you want to burn.
Personally, after 1500 agl, I reduce power to 24/2400. This gives me more
than adequate climb, 800 fpm and 120-130kts. The fuel burn rate goes way down.
I continue to lean in the climb to maintain takeoff egts until at cruise altitude.
I then set up for 8K + ft cruise and 25-40 deg LOP 65% power @ 2300
rpm. This gives me roughly 165 kts TAS and fuel burn of 11 to 11.5 GPH depending
on the day.
> There are some that do the big mixture pull and climb LOP, I have not tried that
yet. Not brave enough.....
>
> --------
> Bill
> WA0SYV
> Aviation Partners, LLC
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399479#399479
>
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | FWF Scat Hose Clamps? |
The FWF plans call for eight AN737TW-66 hose clamps for the scat tubes.
However, I do not see them on the hardware list. Am I missing something?
Also, the Fuselage kit came with two, but four are needed to run the
scat for the heat?
-Sean #40303 (trying to finish up FWF)
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: FWF Scat Hose Clamps? |
It sounds like you are missing some hardware. Mine came with all of those hose
clamps
--------
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399497#399497
Message 13
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| Subject: | Bob Archer Antenna RG cable attachment nuts |
Today I wanted to install my wingtip and I couldn't find the small nuts which hold
the RG cable to the bob archer antenna.
Can someone please let me know which nuts are required.
Thanks
Mike
--------
RV-10 builder (final assembly)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399498#399498
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| Subject: | Re: FWF Scat Hose Clamps? |
I don't remember right off hand whether they are in the FWF kit or the
finish kit, they are NOT in the fuselage kit.
On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Sean Stephens <sean@stephensville.com>wrote:
>
> The FWF plans call for eight AN737TW-66 hose clamps for the scat tubes.
> However, I do not see them on the hardware list. Am I missing something?
>
> Also, the Fuselage kit came with two, but four are needed to run the scat
> for the heat?
>
> -Sean #40303 (trying to finish up FWF)
>
>
--
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: FWF Scat Hose Clamps? |
Ya, there's 5 in the finish kit and 2 in the fuselage kit. But we need
8 for the fwf hoses and 4 for the heat in tunnel. Seems as there are 7
provided and 12 needed.
No matter. I just went to Auto... errrr... AeroZone and picked up the
extras.
Thanks,
-Sean #40303 (spending time searching for fwf parts in finish and fuse
kit instead of finishing fwf)
On 4/27/13 4:18 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> I don't remember right off hand whether they are in the FWF kit or the
> finish kit, they are NOT in the fuselage kit.
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Sean Stephens <sean@stephensville.com
> <mailto:sean@stephensville.com>> wrote:
>
> <sean@stephensville.com <mailto:sean@stephensville.com>>
>
> The FWF plans call for eight AN737TW-66 hose clamps for the scat
> tubes. However, I do not see them on the hardware list. Am I
> missing something?
>
> Also, the Fuselage kit came with two, but four are needed to run
> the scat for the heat?
>
> -Sean #40303 (trying to finish up FWF)
>
> ===================================
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ===================================
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ===================================
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
> --
>
> - sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
> *
>
>
> *
Message 16
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I have started working on the doors.
I drilled the fwd and aft index holes as indicated on 45-02, but when I lay
the door up, only the aft index hole matches. The forward hole is about 4
inches higher than when the fuselage "missing" rivet is.
Both doors are like this, with the fwd dimples about 4 inches higher than
the plans show.
Has anyone else run into this issue?
--
Vernon Franklin
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Door Question |
Mine were that way also. I made a rivet hole transfer tool to locate the empty
dimpled rivet hole on the door. IIRC, Avery Tool carries these.
David Clifford
RV-10 Builder
Howell, MI
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vernon Franklin" <vernon.franklin@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:15:32 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Door Question
I have started working on the doors.
I drilled the fwd and aft index holes as indicated on 45-02, but when I lay the
door up, only the aft index hole matches. The forward hole is about 4 inches
higher than when the fuselage "missing" rivet is.
Both doors are like this, with the fwd dimples about 4 inches higher than the plans
show.
Has anyone else run into this issue?
--
Vernon Franklin
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Door Question |
As I recall, the index holes on the inner and outer door halves did not all line
up for me, either. The lines and scribe marks on my fiberglass parts were hard
to impossible to see.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399512#399512
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: power settings |
At full gross 90% of the time with the family...WOT, 2700 to cruise altitude and
lean during ascent to maintain 1250-1275F takeoff EGT. Then RPM back to 2300-2400,
MP as necessary for 60-65%, FF= 9.5-10.5 at 25-40F LOP. I really like this
plane!
--------
Wayne G.
SB 12/01/2009-12/01/2011
TT= 103
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399515#399515
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| Subject: | Re: FWF Scat Hose Clamps? |
Auto Zone for me too. Yep, Van's cannot count.
--------
Wayne G.
SB 12/01/2009-12/01/2011
TT= 103
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399516#399516
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| Subject: | Re: power settings |
On 4/27/2013 5:35 AM, Alan Mekler MD wrote:
> Thanks for your reply. I was listening to a mike bush webinar and his
> was big on low rpm high manifold pressures just the opposite if how i
> was tought.
> Alan
Ive heard Mike Busch's seminars too but dont think i have come away with
that particular conclusion. In fact, i recall him saying high MAP and
low RPM with the right mixture and power setting is about the worst
place to operate an engine.
He flies a twin turbocharged cessna, so on takeoff with turbos he is
effectively operating high MAP with low RPM. However, he does so with
full mixture to mitigate detonation all the way to cruise. The turbo
charging dictates how he operates. NA operators have more flexibility
than this.
On 4/27/2013 6:02 AM, bill.peyton wrote:
> There are some that do the big mixture pull and climb LOP, I have not
> tried that yet. Not brave enough.....
Not sure what is brave about a LOP climb since the engine doesn't know
it is climbing, level or descending. The engine chart parameters are
more about temperatures/pressures, %power and fuel settings.
Jae
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#40533 RV-10
First flight 10/19/2011
Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011
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| Subject: | Re: power settings |
My friends recommendation was specific to my RV and not to aircraft like a DC6
or maybe even the G550 he will take to Russia on 12 hours notice. if you are not
touching anything but the 3 degrees of flap before 800-1000' AGL than i might
as well abide by his recommendation for another 10 seconds before making those
changes.
While I don't believe everything I read or hear when a craftsman in their chosen
industry gives me a safety tip I give it extra weight.
Robin
Sent from the new iPad
On Apr 27, 2013, at 7:43 AM, "Kelly McMullen" <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
> I wonder where that instructor got his mechanical knowledge. Certainly is telling
you to operate differently than he does in his day job. I guarantee you
that all airline jets retract gear and reduce flaps long before they could glide
back to the airport. As a matter of fact, I remember DC6's and 7's retracting
gear as soon as they were 10 ft in the air with barely positive rate of climb,
because they needed the drag reduction. I reduce flap setting when the angle
of climb is no longer needed to clear obstacles. You will glide better without
flaps. I reduce rpm at 800-1000 AGL for noise abatement and to reduce stress
on the prop. I keep full throttle until leveling off. Had to be amused by
the "oversquare" comments. Flat (horizontally opposed) engines have no issues
of being oversquare. Every aircraft with a fixed pitch prop runs oversquare on
takeoff. If it didn't, you would have to reduce power as soon as the nose was
lowered for cruise to keep from exceeding red line. That whole over/under square
discussion comes from radial engines that turn much slower to start with.
> As far as I know, no one has ever done a thorough, statistically sound, analysis
of failure at first power reduction or at first configuration change. I believe
it to be one of aviation's most strongly held old wive's tale. Probably
related to takeoffs with unairworthy aircraft to begin with, that the failure
would occur soon after takeoff regardless of whether the controls were moved.
> Kelly
> On 4/27/2013 6:59 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
>>
>> I have a very talented instructor airline pilot friend that says DON'T TOUCH
A THING after takeoff till you reach an altitude that you can safely return to
the airport. That includes flap retract. He says if you are going to have a
problem it will likely be on First Action either electrical or mechanical.
>> After you can make the field continue as you wish.
>> Currently at the West Coast Formation Clinic. Wish me luck!
>>
>> Robin
>>
>> "bill.peyton" <peyton.b@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> A lot of how you choose to climb has to do with how much fuel you want to burn.
Personally, after 1500 agl, I reduce power to 24/2400. This gives me more
than adequate climb, 800 fpm and 120-130kts. The fuel burn rate goes way down.
I continue to lean in the climb to maintain takeoff egts until at cruise
altitude. I then set up for 8K + ft cruise and 25-40 deg LOP 65% power @ 2300
rpm. This gives me roughly 165 kts TAS and fuel burn of 11 to 11.5 GPH depending
on the day.
>> There are some that do the big mixture pull and climb LOP, I have not tried
that yet. Not brave enough.....
>>
>> --------
>> Bill
>> WA0SYV
>> Aviation Partners, LLC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399479#399479
>
>
>
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