Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:04 AM - Women in Aviation Plane Wash for Scholarship Fund (bill.peyton)
2. 02:45 PM - Re: Re: Electronic Ignition (Linn)
3. 03:48 PM - Re: Re: Electronic Ignition (Ed Mueller)
4. 03:51 PM - Re: Electronic Ignition (Bob Turner)
5. 04:36 PM - Re: Re: Electronic Ignition (John Cox)
6. 05:14 PM - Re: Re: Electronic Ignition (Robin Marks)
7. 05:26 PM - Re: Re: Electronic Ignition (John Cox)
8. 07:50 PM - Re: Re: Electronic Ignition (Kelly McMullen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Women in Aviation Plane Wash for Scholarship Fund |
OK Here is your chance to have your plane washed, eat breakfast and do a charitable
thing at the same time. The local chapter of WIA is going to be in full
force washing planes at the Mt. Vernon, IL KMVN airport. The specifics are:
Airplane Wash
by
Women With Wings
Come to the KMVN June fly-in breakfast and
Get your plane washed, too!
When:
Saturday, June 1st, 2013
9:00 am to 12:00 pm
(Breakfast is from 8 11)
Where:
Mount Vernon Airport, Mt. Vernon, IL
(KMVN)
Cost:
$65.00 and up
Cash, checks, credit cards accepted!
Well use fresh rags to wash, shammys to dry your plane & plexiglass cleaner on
your windscreen. We degrease bellies, too!
**Proceeds benefit the Women With Wings Scholarship Fund**
Women with Wings is the St. Louis area chapter of Women in Aviation International.
--------
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401109#401109
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition |
On 5/20/2013 9:35 PM, Neal George wrote:
>
> Tim / Robin (et al) -
>
> We gotta talk.
>
> Our aircraft engines DO NOT have two ignition sources for redundancy. It's required
for best operation.
>
> The combustion chamber in our opposed air-cooled engines is so big it needs to
have the flame lit in multiple locations to achieve reasonable combustion in
the time allotted per power stroke.
>
> If you're running one mag and one EI, you're only running on one plug above idle.
Pardon my ignorance and I'm a little slow so bear with me. What you
infer is that one plug/cylinder quits firing??? Why??? Which one quits
.... the mag or the EI???
Well, the mag doesn't quit so that leaves the EI .... which (AFAIK)
doesn't quit ...... so where did you get derailed???
Linn
>
> Not good. Nowhere close to optimum. A hotter spark from EI masks some of the
roughness from inefficient combustion, but it's still just one plug doing all
the work.
>
> This is a critical system, and not a place for compromise or hedging bets. It's
binary-land. You're either in or out. Pick one or the other and run with it.
>
> Your fuel consumption per unit power / distance / time (pick your favorite measuring
stick) will decrease and engine performance / smoothness will increase.
>
> "Redundancy" or "safety" are false promises.
>
> Neal George
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 16, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I feel about the same. I wouldn't ever be happy anymore with
>> 2 Mags. Reliability wise I've actually had more worrysome
>> issues with planes over the years with mags than with the
>> lightspeed on one side. I'm not sure where those statistics
>> came from exactly, but especially with that last
>> Slick AD I'm not sure I'd believe them. Maybe Bendix
>> would be a different story. These days nobody runs
>> points and mags in a car....and even in my boat one of the
>> best things I did in the last year was swap the points
>> for an electronic trigger module. So one side has to be
>> E.I. for me.
>>
>> But, just like Robin says, I don't know that I'd want to put
>> TWO of anything on the engine yet. If I did have 2, I don't
>> think the lightspeed would be my choice on the RV-10, because
>> you'd still have one crank sensor. And given the Looooooong
>> time to market and broken promises of pMag for the 6, I think
>> I'd want to see a few hundred flying, for a few 10's of
>> thousands of hours before I'd dive in. It wouldn't take but
>> a couple years for them to develop a track record one way
>> or the other...and I have to assume that if they were
>> reliable right now, they would be AVAILABLE right now, because
>> there certainly is a market for them once they are
>> released. I can only assume that it's because of issues
>> that they aren't making it to market...so I'll want to
>> see a track record before I'd go that route.
>>
>> In the end, I'm very happy to have only 1 mag to overhaul,
>> but even happier that the engine runs best on that one
>> EI. I would prefer to keep that same type of
>> arrangement down the road...I'm not an "all eggs in 1
>> basket" kind of guy.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> On 5/16/2013 12:20 PM, Robin Marks wrote:
>>> I prefer the mixed set up of one EI and one mag. I love the set up on my 8A
with one Pmag. I won't run dual anything but Mags however I prefer the better
burn of EI and with a single EI you get almost all the benefit of having dual
EI but still have a good old Mag to rely upon.
>>> I would consider two different EI but not two of the same EIs.
>>> I wish the 6 cylinder pmag were available (and fully tested)
>>>
>>> Robin
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition |
I'll jump into the middle of this. I agree. I'm not a mechanic, but I do know
my way around an engine. When I started flying in the mid 80's I thought the
two mags were for redundancy also. A couple of experienced mechanics explained
it was for better combustion. The flame front propagates so slowly that you
need the two sparks to complete combustion correctly. Both mags are firing,
since one is so early that starts the flame front. The other one fires so late
it doesn't matter much.
Ed
On May 20, 2013, at 9:35 PM, Neal George wrote:
>
> Tim / Robin (et al) -
>
> We gotta talk.
>
> Our aircraft engines DO NOT have two ignition sources for redundancy. It's required
for best operation.
>
> The combustion chamber in our opposed air-cooled engines is so big it needs to
have the flame lit in multiple locations to achieve reasonable combustion in
the time allotted per power stroke.
>
> If you're running one mag and one EI, you're only running on one plug above idle.
>
> Not good. Nowhere close to optimum. A hotter spark from EI masks some of the
roughness from inefficient combustion, but it's still just one plug doing all
the work.
>
> This is a critical system, and not a place for compromise or hedging bets. It's
binary-land. You're either in or out. Pick one or the other and run with it.
>
> Your fuel consumption per unit power / distance / time (pick your favorite measuring
stick) will decrease and engine performance / smoothness will increase.
>
> "Redundancy" or "safety" are false promises.
>
> Neal George
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 16, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I feel about the same. I wouldn't ever be happy anymore with
>> 2 Mags. Reliability wise I've actually had more worrysome
>> issues with planes over the years with mags than with the
>> lightspeed on one side. I'm not sure where those statistics
>> came from exactly, but especially with that last
>> Slick AD I'm not sure I'd believe them. Maybe Bendix
>> would be a different story. These days nobody runs
>> points and mags in a car....and even in my boat one of the
>> best things I did in the last year was swap the points
>> for an electronic trigger module. So one side has to be
>> E.I. for me.
>>
>> But, just like Robin says, I don't know that I'd want to put
>> TWO of anything on the engine yet. If I did have 2, I don't
>> think the lightspeed would be my choice on the RV-10, because
>> you'd still have one crank sensor. And given the Looooooong
>> time to market and broken promises of pMag for the 6, I think
>> I'd want to see a few hundred flying, for a few 10's of
>> thousands of hours before I'd dive in. It wouldn't take but
>> a couple years for them to develop a track record one way
>> or the other...and I have to assume that if they were
>> reliable right now, they would be AVAILABLE right now, because
>> there certainly is a market for them once they are
>> released. I can only assume that it's because of issues
>> that they aren't making it to market...so I'll want to
>> see a track record before I'd go that route.
>>
>> In the end, I'm very happy to have only 1 mag to overhaul,
>> but even happier that the engine runs best on that one
>> EI. I would prefer to keep that same type of
>> arrangement down the road...I'm not an "all eggs in 1
>> basket" kind of guy.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> On 5/16/2013 12:20 PM, Robin Marks wrote:
>>> I prefer the mixed set up of one EI and one mag. I love the set up on my 8A
with one Pmag. I won't run dual anything but Mags however I prefer the better
burn of EI and with a single EI you get almost all the benefit of having dual
EI but still have a good old Mag to rely upon.
>>> I would consider two different EI but not two of the same EIs.
>>> I wish the 6 cylinder pmag were available (and fully tested)
>>>
>>> Robin
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition |
Linn,
Your error is in assuming that a post that starts out "we gotta talk" is going
to be rational.
The poster said, correctly, that having two ignition sources and two propagating
flame fronts helps the fuel burn more completely within the alloted time (especially
true for fixed timing mags), and hence improves engine power and efficiency.
(which is why there is an rpm drop on runup when operating on one mag).
He also said, correctly, that if you have an EI plug with advanced timing, that
its flame front may have propagated past the second, mag fired plug, before the
mag has fired, and thus the mag is "doing no work", to use his words.
But then he says that this is "bad". If it was bad, then the EI guys just wouldn't
advance the timing. But they do, because the engine runs more efficiently
with advanced timing under typical cruise conditions. Even if it's only one plug
that's advanced. His arguement makes no sense. I thought maybe it was an IQ
test, to see how many people responded.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401148#401148
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition |
This seems the point at which the positives of EI need to be clearly stated
- balanced against their negatives. Then compared directly with the clear
positives of a magneto and its negatives. When a reader understands the
trade-offs they can better understand the frustration with the always
coming into the near future Pmag for 6 cylinders which was going to solve
everything (comes to mind).
Mr. Barrett (or the lovely Ms Rhonda) could weigh in on why the high
performance engines he builds use what they do and why power output
diminishes on their dyno with one EI and one magneto. Note: a most popular
blend with the RV-10 crowd. Another question is what do S.D. Tucker, K.
Chambliss and M.Goulian bet their lives on??
Tim's input had something to do with that isolated manufacturing incident
with Slick mags a few years ago. Two Slicks with bad carbon made for a bad
day. Two EI have their own Achilles heal. As of today, there is still no
single right answer.
Lycoming has made such an advanced engine in their iE2 with knock sensors,
variable timing and redundant FADEC wiring for the Lancair Evolution
TEO-540-A1A. The additional price knocked a few willing participants out
of the evaluation and they opt for turbine.
Know your mission, choose wisely, land safely Every Time.
John Cox
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu> wrote:
>
> Linn,
> Your error is in assuming that a post that starts out "we gotta talk" is
> going to be rational.
> The poster said, correctly, that having two ignition sources and two
> propagating flame fronts helps the fuel burn more completely within the
> alloted time (especially true for fixed timing mags), and hence improves
> engine power and efficiency. (which is why there is an rpm drop on runup
> when operating on one mag).
> He also said, correctly, that if you have an EI plug with advanced timing,
> that its flame front may have propagated past the second, mag fired plug,
> before the mag has fired, and thus the mag is "doing no work", to use his
> words.
> But then he says that this is "bad". If it was bad, then the EI guys just
> wouldn't advance the timing. But they do, because the engine runs more
> efficiently with advanced timing under typical cruise conditions. Even if
> it's only one plug that's advanced. His arguement makes no sense. I thought
> maybe it was an IQ test, to see how many people responded.
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401148#401148
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition |
I spoke with Barrett and rather than get an answer on their preferred set u
p Alan told me they are working on a dual electronic ignition of their own
(bolt onto the Magneto platform). They are fashioning it after the successf
ul EI they developed for their MP-14 (Radial). ETA likely 2014.
As far as what Sean Tucker et.al. uses I am not sure their risk analysis ma
tches mine. I frankly never considered flying upside down to cut a ribbon w
ith my rudder a few feet off the pavement. Just never came to mind.
Thanks,
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@m
atronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Electronic Ignition
This seems the point at which the positives of EI need to be clearly stated
- balanced against their negatives. Then compared directly with the clea
r positives of a magneto and its negatives. When a reader understands the
trade-offs they can better understand the frustration with the always comin
g into the near future Pmag for 6 cylinders which was going to solve everyt
hing (comes to mind).
Mr. Barrett (or the lovely Ms Rhonda) could weigh in on why the high perfor
mance engines he builds use what they do and why power output diminishes on
their dyno with one EI and one magneto. Note: a most popular blend with th
e RV-10 crowd. Another question is what do S.D. Tucker, K. Chambliss and M
.Goulian bet their lives on??
Tim's input had something to do with that isolated manufacturing incident w
ith Slick mags a few years ago. Two Slicks with bad carbon made for a bad
day. Two EI have their own Achilles heal. As of today, there is still no
single right answer.
Lycoming has made such an advanced engine in their iE2 with knock sensors,
variable timing and redundant FADEC wiring for the Lancair Evolution TEO-54
0-A1A. The additional price knocked a few willing participants out of the
evaluation and they opt for turbine.
Know your mission, choose wisely, land safely Every Time.
John Cox
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu<mailto:
bobturner@alum.rpi.edu>> wrote:
o:bobturner@alum.rpi.edu>>
Linn,
Your error is in assuming that a post that starts out "we gotta talk" is go
ing to be rational.
The poster said, correctly, that having two ignition sources and two propag
ating flame fronts helps the fuel burn more completely within the alloted t
ime (especially true for fixed timing mags), and hence improves engine powe
r and efficiency. (which is why there is an rpm drop on runup when operatin
g on one mag).
He also said, correctly, that if you have an EI plug with advanced timing,
that its flame front may have propagated past the second, mag fired plug, b
efore the mag has fired, and thus the mag is "doing no work", to use his wo
rds.
But then he says that this is "bad". If it was bad, then the EI guys just w
ouldn't advance the timing. But they do, because the engine runs more effic
iently with advanced timing under typical cruise conditions. Even if it's o
nly one plug that's advanced. His arguement makes no sense. I thought maybe
it was an IQ test, to see how many people responded.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401148#401148
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
http://forums.matronics.com
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition |
Research will find they don't mix and match.
The Barrett solution for the M-14 has been remarkable.....but... the
Russian & Chinese mags had a life limit of 750 hours. Getting correct parts
is another matter.
Barrett's have made a lot of improvements, for the old M-14.
Too bad we don't have a thousand engines available with FADEC.
John
On May 22, 2013 5:19 PM, "Robin Marks" <robin@painttheweb.com> wrote:
>
> I spoke with Barrett and rather than get an answer on their preferred set
up Alan told me they are working on a dual electronic ignition of their own
(bolt onto the Magneto platform). They are fashioning it after the
successful EI they developed for their MP-14 (Radial). ETA likely 2014.
>
> As far as what Sean Tucker et.al. uses I am not sure their risk analysis
matches mine. I frankly never considered flying upside down to cut a ribbon
with my rudder a few feet off the pavement. Just never came to mind.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Robin
>
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:36 PM
>
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Electronic Ignition
>
>
> This seems the point at which the positives of EI need to be clearly
stated - balanced against their negatives. Then compared directly with
the clear positives of a magneto and its negatives. When a reader
understands the trade-offs they can better understand the frustration with
the always coming into the near future Pmag for 6 cylinders which was going
to solve everything (comes to mind).
>
>
> Mr. Barrett (or the lovely Ms Rhonda) could weigh in on why the high
performance engines he builds use what they do and why power output
diminishes on their dyno with one EI and one magneto. Note: a most popular
blend with the RV-10 crowd. Another question is what do S.D. Tucker, K.
Chambliss and M.Goulian bet their lives on??
>
>
> Tim's input had something to do with that isolated manufacturing incident
with Slick mags a few years ago. Two Slicks with bad carbon made for a bad
day. Two EI have their own Achilles heal. As of today, there is still no
single right answer.
>
>
> Lycoming has made such an advanced engine in their iE2 with knock
sensors, variable timing and redundant FADEC wiring for the Lancair
Evolution TEO-540-A1A. The additional price knocked a few willing
participants out of the evaluation and they opt for turbine.
>
>
> Know your mission, choose wisely, land safely Every Time.
>
>
> John Cox
>
>
> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu>
wrote:
>
>
> Linn,
> Your error is in assuming that a post that starts out "we gotta talk" is
going to be rational.
> The poster said, correctly, that having two ignition sources and two
propagating flame fronts helps the fuel burn more completely within the
alloted time (especially true for fixed timing mags), and hence improves
engine power and efficiency. (which is why there is an rpm drop on runup
when operating on one mag).
> He also said, correctly, that if you have an EI plug with advanced
timing, that its flame front may have propagated past the second, mag fired
plug, before the mag has fired, and thus the mag is "doing no work", to use
his words.
> But then he says that this is "bad". If it was bad, then the EI guys just
wouldn't advance the timing. But they do, because the engine runs more
efficiently with advanced timing under typical cruise conditions. Even if
it's only one plug that's advanced. His arguement makes no sense. I thought
maybe it was an IQ test, to see how many people responded.
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401148#401148
>
>
> ==========
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> ============== V10-List Email Forum - > :p> /o:p> tor?RV10-List">
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List ============== bsp; -
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - :p> tp://forums.matronics.com ============== bsp; -
List Contribution Web Site - e> bsp; -Matt Dralle, List
Admin. bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =============
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> :p>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic Ignition |
I seem to recall G3i using the term "wasted spark". I chose to get two
Bendix S-1200 mags, which is the best mag Bendix ever made(same charge
freshly overhaul as new Slick). Sure, some of the benefits of
electronics would be nice, but I don't want to do dual bus, dual
alternator or dual batteries. If 5% fuel savings is true, I save 1 gal
every 20 hours. Gonna take a lot of hours to pay for the extra expense
of EI and whatever electrical changes are needed. If Pmag ever shows up
and gets a few years of development fixing bugs after they are in the
field, I'll revisit. A friend in RV-7 with E mag and a Pmag had total
ignition loss a few hundred feet in air, just barely enough to get back
to runway. A high voltage event had damaged electronics in both mags. Be
careful with your choices, especially with dual EI.
On 5/22/2013 4:36 PM, John Cox wrote:
> This seems the point at which the positives of EI need to be clearly
> stated - balanced against their negatives. Then compared directly
> with the clear positives of a magneto and its negatives. When a
> reader understands the trade-offs they can better understand the
> frustration with the always coming into the near future Pmag for 6
> cylinders which was going to solve everything (comes to mind).
>
> Mr. Barrett (or the lovely Ms Rhonda) could weigh in on why the high
> performance engines he builds use what they do and why power output
> diminishes on their dyno with one EI and one magneto. Note: a most
> popular blend with the RV-10 crowd. Another question is what do S.D.
> Tucker, K. Chambliss and M.Goulian bet their lives on??
>
> Tim's input had something to do with that isolated manufacturing
> incident with Slick mags a few years ago. Two Slicks with bad carbon
> made for a bad day. Two EI have their own Achilles heal. As of
> today, there is still no single right answer.
>
> Lycoming has made such an advanced engine in their iE2 with knock
> sensors, variable timing and redundant FADEC wiring for the Lancair
> Evolution TEO-540-A1A. The additional price knocked a few willing
> participants out of the evaluation and they opt for turbine.
>
> Know your mission, choose wisely, land safely Every Time.
>
> John Cox
>
>
> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu
> <mailto:bobturner@alum.rpi.edu>> wrote:
>
> <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu <mailto:bobturner@alum.rpi.edu>>
>
> Linn,
> Your error is in assuming that a post that starts out "we gotta
> talk" is going to be rational.
> The poster said, correctly, that having two ignition sources and
> two propagating flame fronts helps the fuel burn more completely
> within the alloted time (especially true for fixed timing mags),
> and hence improves engine power and efficiency. (which is why
> there is an rpm drop on runup when operating on one mag).
> He also said, correctly, that if you have an EI plug with advanced
> timing, that its flame front may have propagated past the second,
> mag fired plug, before the mag has fired, and thus the mag is
> "doing no work", to use his words.
> But then he says that this is "bad". If it was bad, then the EI
> guys just wouldn't advance the timing. But they do, because the
> engine runs more efficiently with advanced timing under typical
> cruise conditions. Even if it's only one plug that's advanced. His
> arguement makes no sense. I thought maybe it was an IQ test, to
> see how many people responded.
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401148#401148
>
>
> ==========
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
-----
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