Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:01 AM - Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here (Jeff Carpenter)
2. 10:44 AM - Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here (Bob Leffler)
3. 11:15 AM - Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here (Jim Beyer)
4. 11:18 AM - Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here (Bob Turner)
5. 11:26 AM - Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here (Rene Felker)
6. 11:28 AM - Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here (Pascal)
7. 11:47 AM - Paul Poberezny - Gone West (jkreidler)
8. 01:24 PM - Re: Paul Poberezny - Gone West (bruce breckenridge)
9. 02:17 PM - Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here (Kelly McMullen)
10. 02:53 PM - Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here (Bob Turner)
11. 03:01 PM - Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here (Bob Turner)
12. 05:29 PM - Re: Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here (Kelly McMullen)
13. 06:22 PM - Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here (Bob Turner)
14. 06:46 PM - Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here (Bob Turner)
15. 07:39 PM - Re: Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here (Kelly McMullen)
16. 08:37 PM - Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here (Bob Turner)
17. 09:05 PM - Re: Re: Flight time logging (Kelly McMullen)
18. 10:04 PM - Re: Flight time logging (Bob Turner)
19. 10:29 PM - Re: Flight time logging (Bob Turner)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here |
I'm getting to the point where there aren't a whole lot of parts left, and one
of them appears to be a large airplane like thing. So, this starts me thinking
about things like first flights and fly off and, of course, that leads to insurance.
Insurance, as I'm sure most of you are aware, wants about two hundred and fifty
hours in a log book before they'll cover you in an experimental airplane... which
is fine... except my log book seems to have about 161.4 hours in it (give
or take). So, I'm looking at a good 90.6 hours in a rental airplane before I
can take off in my own in a financially responsible way.
Now, I'm sure I could use (and plan on) a good 20-30 hours to get current, get
my high performance sign off and my transition training... but what happens after
that I don't know. I could get my IFR, but had certainly hoped to do that
time in my own plane... and it's sure going to be hard to see my shiny new RV-10
sitting in a hangar for the better part of a year before I can fly it.
Are there any low timers out there who would like to share what you did?
Are there any high timers out there with suggestions?
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Prop hung and about half way through the baffles
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here |
I just had a conversation with another builder that had a few hours less than you
do. Unfortunately, he was with Aggressive. (So was I). Aggressive is getting
out of the aviation business and just sent out non-renewal notices.
In addition to the hours, many companies didn't want to cover Phase 1 , many wouldn't
cover first flight.
In talking with my agent, she relayed that another RV-10 was just quoted $17k w/
$10k deductible. Ouch!!!
If were in your shoes, I would get current first. Not knowing you situation, I
don't want to make any assumptions on how long that will take. Then I would go
to an ifr boot camp were you can getting your rating in a week or so. Some
will even come to you. Naturally, you won't be very ifr proficient at this stage,
but you would have the rating.
This would kill two birds with one stone. Get more hours and the additional rating.
This will drive your premiums lower.
Then after phase 1, you can work on becoming ifr proficient.
I don't think there are any short cuts other than throwing cash to build hours
and get your ifr rating quickly.
Bob
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 22, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Jeff Carpenter <jeff@westcottpress.com> wrote:
I'm getting to the point where there aren't a whole lot of parts left, and one
of them appears to be a large airplane like thing. So, this starts me thinking
about things like first flights and fly off and, of course, that leads to insurance.
Insurance, as I'm sure most of you are aware, wants about two hundred and fifty
hours in a log book before they'll cover you in an experimental airplane... which
is fine... except my log book seems to have about 161.4 hours in it (give
or take). So, I'm looking at a good 90.6 hours in a rental airplane before I
can take off in my own in a financially responsible way.
Now, I'm sure I could use (and plan on) a good 20-30 hours to get current, get
my high performance sign off and my transition training... but what happens after
that I don't know. I could get my IFR, but had certainly hoped to do that
time in my own plane... and it's sure going to be hard to see my shiny new RV-10
sitting in a hangar for the better part of a year before I can fly it.
Are there any low timers out there who would like to share what you did?
Are there any high timers out there with suggestions?
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Prop hung and about half way through the baffles
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here |
My thoughts start flying something, anything, now while finishing up the RV-10;
buy the gas for someone to fly the phase 1; earn your instrument rating in the
RV-10 with a CFII/evaluator who is RV-10 insurable; take pilots or CFIs who
are RV-10 insurable on trips (breakfasts, lunch, Caribbean, etc) -- all while
you are flying your RV-10 building hours. At 250 hours total time, you get to
fly by yourself. Fly safe, -Jim
On Aug 22, 2013, at 12:44 PM, Bob Leffler <rv@thelefflers.com> wrote:
>
> I'm getting to the point where there aren't a whole lot of parts left, and one
of them appears to be a large airplane like thing. So, this starts me thinking
about things like first flights and fly off and, of course, that leads to insurance.
>
> Insurance, as I'm sure most of you are aware, wants about two hundred and fifty
hours in a log book before they'll cover you in an experimental airplane...
which is fine... except my log book seems to have about 161.4 hours in it (give
or take). So, I'm looking at a good 90.6 hours in a rental airplane before
I can take off in my own in a financially responsible way.
>
> Now, I'm sure I could use (and plan on) a good 20-30 hours to get current, get
my high performance sign off and my transition training... but what happens
after that I don't know. I could get my IFR, but had certainly hoped to do that
time in my own plane... and it's sure going to be hard to see my shiny new RV-10
sitting in a hangar for the better part of a year before I can fly it.
>
> Are there any low timers out there who would like to share what you did?
>
> Are there any high timers out there with suggestions?
>
> Jeff Carpenter
> 40304
> Prop hung and about half way through the baffles
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here |
Pretty much agree with Bob, above.
Insurance requirements are a constantly moving target.
Some thoughts:
High performance endorsement. You do not just want the paperwork, you want CS prop
operation to be second nature to you before you get into your plane. I presume
from your post that you have never flown anything close to the speed an RV10
is capable of. You will find yourself behind the plane, mentally.
Are you planning on doing the phase one testing? At a minimum, have you had some
spin training and do you feel comfortable with stalls and potential spins (not
that the ten is likely to spin, but you are after all a test pilot)?
So, option one: go fly, get another 50 hours. Fly some faster planes. Get used
to the CS prop. Use the time to get your instrument rating.
Option two: Hire a commercial or ATP rated pilot who is reasonable to insure to
do your phase one testing. Then hire a CFI who is reasonable to insure (could
be the same person) to instruct you in your plane, get high performance endorsement,
ifr rating.
Neither of these will be inexpensive. Maybe others have other ideas.
Bob
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407239#407239
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| Subject: | Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here |
I think recent flight experience plays a part in this. So before you start
talking serious with the insurance agent, get some.
One way to get a little extra time and not that much money.....find friends
who need safety pilots.
Also, if you do not have an HP rating (is that what it is called, maybe
endorsement), get one asap so you can fly as safety pilot for your friends
with HP aircraft. I log this time when I am pilot in command. May not be
a lot, but every little bit helps.
For years I chased a 10% discount by doing extra training and a IPC each
year. But I am a numbers guys at heart and you know, it always cost me
money to save the 10%. If $$ are the driver, than make sure you look
closely at all options and figure out the true costs. I know that there is
value in getting an IPC each year.....but I think I get more real training
when me and my instructor just go out and focus on one or two things and not
worry about him covering his but signing off an IPC.
Rene' Felker
N423CF
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here
I just had a conversation with another builder that had a few hours less
than you do. Unfortunately, he was with Aggressive. (So was I). Aggressive
is getting out of the aviation business and just sent out non-renewal
notices.
In addition to the hours, many companies didn't want to cover Phase 1 , many
wouldn't cover first flight.
In talking with my agent, she relayed that another RV-10 was just quoted
$17k w/ $10k deductible. Ouch!!!
If were in your shoes, I would get current first. Not knowing you situation,
I don't want to make any assumptions on how long that will take. Then I
would go to an ifr boot camp were you can getting your rating in a week or
so. Some will even come to you. Naturally, you won't be very ifr
proficient at this stage, but you would have the rating.
This would kill two birds with one stone. Get more hours and the additional
rating. This will drive your premiums lower.
Then after phase 1, you can work on becoming ifr proficient.
I don't think there are any short cuts other than throwing cash to build
hours and get your ifr rating quickly.
Bob
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 22, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Jeff Carpenter <jeff@westcottpress.com> wrote:
I'm getting to the point where there aren't a whole lot of parts left, and
one of them appears to be a large airplane like thing. So, this starts me
thinking about things like first flights and fly off and, of course, that
leads to insurance.
Insurance, as I'm sure most of you are aware, wants about two hundred and
fifty hours in a log book before they'll cover you in an experimental
airplane... which is fine... except my log book seems to have about 161.4
hours in it (give or take). So, I'm looking at a good 90.6 hours in a rental
airplane before I can take off in my own in a financially responsible way.
Now, I'm sure I could use (and plan on) a good 20-30 hours to get current,
get my high performance sign off and my transition training... but what
happens after that I don't know. I could get my IFR, but had certainly hoped
to do that time in my own plane... and it's sure going to be hard to see my
shiny new RV-10 sitting in a hangar for the better part of a year before I
can fly it.
Are there any low timers out there who would like to share what you did?
Are there any high timers out there with suggestions?
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Prop hung and about half way through the baffles
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here |
1) go to Texas or Oregon and get the transition training.
2) Self insure during flyoff
3) fly your plane and get your 25-40 hours you need.
Once you have your flyoff completed, it will be easier to get insurance. I
went with Skysmith, they worked with me.
Took less than 5 hours to get from not flying 20 years ago to flying
the -10. After the 1st flight I figured out the plane puts up with a monkey
flying it.. (dont ask me how I know)
Once you have the flyoff done , you'll feel more comfortable flying
instruments and you can get a great CFI in Chino to fly with you and get you
back on track. I'll gladly fly with you if you want a safety pilot.
Let's get out one day and you can fly my plane.
Pascal
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Carpenter
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 10:00 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here
I'm getting to the point where there aren't a whole lot of parts left, and
one of them appears to be a large airplane like thing. So, this starts me
thinking about things like first flights and fly off and, of course, that
leads to insurance.
Insurance, as I'm sure most of you are aware, wants about two hundred and
fifty hours in a log book before they'll cover you in an experimental
airplane... which is fine... except my log book seems to have about 161.4
hours in it (give or take). So, I'm looking at a good 90.6 hours in a rental
airplane before I can take off in my own in a financially responsible way.
Now, I'm sure I could use (and plan on) a good 20-30 hours to get current,
get my high performance sign off and my transition training... but what
happens after that I don't know. I could get my IFR, but had certainly hoped
to do that time in my own plane... and it's sure going to be hard to see my
shiny new RV-10 sitting in a hangar for the better part of a year before I
can fly it.
Are there any low timers out there who would like to share what you did?
Are there any high timers out there with suggestions?
Jeff Carpenter
40304
Prop hung and about half way through the baffles
Message 7
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| Subject: | Paul Poberezny - Gone West |
Word from EAA that Paul passed away this morning. This is very sad news, even
if we expect the day to come - it still sucks. We owe much if not all of our
hobby and joy to Paul and the others he worked with to found EAA and its values.
Thanks for everything you did Paul - God Speed.
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407245#407245
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Paul Poberezny - Gone West |
What a legacy! He saw his EAA dream grow for 60 years. Amazing.
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:46 AM, jkreidler
<jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com>wrote:
> jason.kreidler@regalbeloit.com>
>
> Word from EAA that Paul passed away this morning. This is very sad news,
> even if we expect the day to come - it still sucks. We owe much if not all
> of our hobby and joy to Paul and the others he worked with to found EAA and
> its values. Thanks for everything you did Paul - God Speed.
>
> --------
> Jason Kreidler
> 4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
> Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
> N44YH - Flying - #40617
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407245#407245
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here |
Just keep in mind that safety pilot time logging is complicated and only
loosely related to who is PIC and who is qualified to be PIC. So read up
on AOPA website on the intimate details to do it correctly.
You do not need anything past single engine land to log second in
command time. You can log PIC any time where you are sole manipulator of
the controls, even when you are not qualified to be PIC. So travel time
enroute to/from an instrument approach, if PIC will let you fly it,
would count.
You can log PIC as safety any time you are qualified to be PIC. That
does argue for getting the HP endorsement(and complex while you are at
it) early and then go play safety for Bonanza and Mooney and Cirrus
pilots. Mooney is particularly good because its speeds are very similar,
especially on takeoff and landing speeds. It also takes planning to get
slowed up enough for landing.
On 8/22/2013 11:26 AM, Rene Felker wrote:
>
> I think recent flight experience plays a part in this. So before you start
> talking serious with the insurance agent, get some.
>
> One way to get a little extra time and not that much money.....find friends
> who need safety pilots.
>
> Also, if you do not have an HP rating (is that what it is called, maybe
> endorsement), get one asap so you can fly as safety pilot for your friends
> with HP aircraft. I log this time when I am pilot in command. May not be
> a lot, but every little bit helps.
>
> For years I chased a 10% discount by doing extra training and a IPC each
> year. But I am a numbers guys at heart and you know, it always cost me
> money to save the 10%. If $$ are the driver, than make sure you look
> closely at all options and figure out the true costs. I know that there is
> value in getting an IPC each year.....but I think I get more real training
> when me and my instructor just go out and focus on one or two things and not
> worry about him covering his but signing off an IPC.
>
> Rene' Felker
> N423CF
> 801-721-6080
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 11:44 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here
>
>
> I just had a conversation with another builder that had a few hours less
> than you do. Unfortunately, he was with Aggressive. (So was I). Aggressive
> is getting out of the aviation business and just sent out non-renewal
> notices.
>
> In addition to the hours, many companies didn't want to cover Phase 1 , many
> wouldn't cover first flight.
>
> In talking with my agent, she relayed that another RV-10 was just quoted
> $17k w/ $10k deductible. Ouch!!!
>
> If were in your shoes, I would get current first. Not knowing you situation,
> I don't want to make any assumptions on how long that will take. Then I
> would go to an ifr boot camp were you can getting your rating in a week or
> so. Some will even come to you. Naturally, you won't be very ifr
> proficient at this stage, but you would have the rating.
>
> This would kill two birds with one stone. Get more hours and the additional
> rating. This will drive your premiums lower.
>
> Then after phase 1, you can work on becoming ifr proficient.
>
>
> I don't think there are any short cuts other than throwing cash to build
> hours and get your ifr rating quickly.
>
> Bob
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 22, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Jeff Carpenter <jeff@westcottpress.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'm getting to the point where there aren't a whole lot of parts left, and
> one of them appears to be a large airplane like thing. So, this starts me
> thinking about things like first flights and fly off and, of course, that
> leads to insurance.
>
> Insurance, as I'm sure most of you are aware, wants about two hundred and
> fifty hours in a log book before they'll cover you in an experimental
> airplane... which is fine... except my log book seems to have about 161.4
> hours in it (give or take). So, I'm looking at a good 90.6 hours in a rental
> airplane before I can take off in my own in a financially responsible way.
>
> Now, I'm sure I could use (and plan on) a good 20-30 hours to get current,
> get my high performance sign off and my transition training... but what
> happens after that I don't know. I could get my IFR, but had certainly hoped
> to do that time in my own plane... and it's sure going to be hard to see my
> shiny new RV-10 sitting in a hangar for the better part of a year before I
> can fly it.
>
> Are there any low timers out there who would like to share what you did?
>
> Are there any high timers out there with suggestions?
>
> Jeff Carpenter
> 40304
> Prop hung and about half way through the baffles
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here |
Sorry Kelly, that is not correct.
You may log PIC time as a safety pilot if you ARE the PIC. Not just qualified to
be. Generally this is not true. Here's one test: if the engine quits, who is
going to decide what field to land in? In most circumstances the aircraft owner
will take over all such decisions, so he is PIC. In such cases you can only
log the time as "other", not PIC. Sometimes two rental pilots will make a deal,
where they each agree that the safety pilot is PIC. As long as they mean it,
then they both get to log PIC time! I know some pilot examiners for whom this
practice raises a red flag, though.
Kelly is correct, you do not need a High Performance endorsement to serve as a
safety pilot in any single engine plane (assuming you hold private, single engine).
You do need a medical. And you cannot serve as PIC.
FYI I am a CFII and do hold a LODA (waiver) to give transition training in my 10.
But I have not renewed my insurance to cover this; too expensive for too little
business.
LODA trainers are supposed to confine themselves to transition training, nothing
else. They are not supposed to sign off high performance endorsements.
Self insuring. To be safe you need to honestly answer this question: Deep down
in my heart, am I willing to throw $100K down the toilet? Or, if the engine quits
over a nice corn field, but I think maybe I can make it back to the airport,
what will you decide?
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407273#407273
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here |
Correction: my post should have said that you cannot act as PIC in a high performance
airplane without a HP endorsement.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407274#407274
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here |
Sorry Bob but both your statements are partially incorrect. Being PIC
and the ability to log PIC are two totally different things. If you
don't believe me go to
AOPA for both their guidance and opinion of FAA general counsel. Your
example of safety pilot acting and logging PIC and the pilot flying
under hood also logging PIC as sole manipulator of controls is perfect
example. Anyone that is sole manipulator of controls can log PIC time
regardless of whether they are qualified by endorsements to be PIC. So
someone transitioning to HP can log the time as PIC while receiving dual
because they are the sole manipulator and are a licensed pilot.
Just as training for commercial license can all be logged as both dual
and PIC. On the other hand safety pilot may not log PIC time if they are
not qualified to be PIC. Like I said, it is a tricky subject that CFI's
and examiners frequently get it wrong.
On 8/22/2013 2:59 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
>
> Correction: my post should have said that you cannot act as PIC in a high performance
airplane without a HP endorsement.
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407274#407274
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here |
Kelly,
I stand by my post.
Everything you said in your last post is correct.
But your first post said you could log time as PIC if you were acting as a safety
pilot and were qualified to be PIC. That is not good enough. You must actually
be THE PIC, the person legally responsible for the safe and legal operation
of the aircraft, in this particular case. The FAR 61 basis allows logging as
PIC time a "required crewmember" who is acting as THE PIC.
On any flight it may be possible for multiple pilots to be logging time as PIC;
but only one person is THE PIC.
If you allow someone else to fly your plane under the hood, and you are the safety
pilot, then you are almost certainly THE PIC, and you both get to log the
time as PIC time*. But if you swap seats and you fly under the hood, only you
can log PiC time. Your safety pilot friend is most likely not responsible for
the legal operation of the aircraft, not THE PIC, he can only log "other" time.
If AOPA says otherwise they've got it wrong.
*ironicly, this is only true if you are vfr. If ifr then no safety pilot is required,
so no logging of time for the person not flying.
Bob
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407289#407289
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here |
Kelly,
I went and read the aopa article. They have it right. They say to log PiC time
when you are a safety pilot you must be ACTING as PIC. (not just qualified).
As you said the rules are complicated.
Trivia question: How is it possible for a non-instrument rated private pilot aircraft
owner(person A), his non-instrument rated private pilot friend (B), and
a CFII with no medical certificate (C), to ALL log PIC time on one flight?
Bob
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407293#407293
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here |
I'd say we will have to agree to disagree. Theoretically, the
owner/operator of the aircraft flying under the hood should agree that
while he is under the hood the safety pilot will act as the PIC, but given
that who is acting as PIC can change at any moment as long as the safety is
qualified to be PIC they can in fact log PIC during the simulated
instrument time.
Just as the person manipulating the controls does not have to be qualified
to be PIC to log the time. Or if the safety is instrument rated and the
pilot flying isn't current they can both go get some actual to log, where
there is no question who is legally PIC.
For those who would like to read the article in question, it is at
http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2009/October/1/Answers-for-Pilots-Logging-time.aspx
The whole subject is mostly counting angels on a pinhead except when using
the time to qualify for a rating.
All that is required is that the two pilots agree that during the simulated
instrument time the safety pilot will act as PIC. They can change that
decision at anytime during the flight.
JMHO with 40 yrs of following the subject while licensed and 35 yrs of
maintaining instrument currency.
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu> wrote:
>
> Kelly,
>
> I stand by my post.
> Everything you said in your last post is correct.
> But your first post said you could log time as PIC if you were acting as a
> safety pilot and were qualified to be PIC. That is not good enough. You
> must actually be THE PIC, the person legally responsible for the safe and
> legal operation of the aircraft, in this particular case. The FAR 61 basis
> allows logging as PIC time a "required crewmember" who is acting as THE PIC.
> On any flight it may be possible for multiple pilots to be logging time as
> PIC; but only one person is THE PIC.
> If you allow someone else to fly your plane under the hood, and you are
> the safety pilot, then you are almost certainly THE PIC, and you both get
> to log the time as PIC time*. But if you swap seats and you fly under the
> hood, only you can log PiC time. Your safety pilot friend is most likely
> not responsible for the legal operation of the aircraft, not THE PIC, he
> can only log "other" time.
> If AOPA says otherwise they've got it wrong.
>
> *ironicly, this is only true if you are vfr. If ifr then no safety pilot
> is required, so no logging of time for the person not flying.
>
> Bob
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407289#407289
>
>
--
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance/Hours/Where to go from here |
Okay, I can agree with this - theoretically!
I just do not like to see misinformation being distributed on the internet. If
you are going to log this type of time (PIC safety pilot time) you must claim
to be the actual PIC - being qualified is not enough.
Getting back to the original topic, suppose "John" applies for insurance, and says
he has 300 hours of logged PIC time. He gets coverage, but unfortunately soon
after has an accident, his plane is totaled, plus he is being sued. The insurance
company asks to see his logbook, and they notice 50 hours logged as PIC
while serving as safety pilot in "Bob's" airplane. The insurance company asks
Bob to swear, under oath, that John did in fact serve as the person responsible
for the operation of Bob's airplane. Bob knows that if he says 'yes' not
only is he lying under oath, but his own insurance company, which would not allow
John to be PIC in Bob's plane, will be very unhappy.
My point is, this is fudging the rules. Just be aware that there may be consequences.
No one will care unless you have an accident, or apply for a new rating
or license.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407306#407306
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| Subject: | Re: Flight time logging |
I see your point. My point was that who is acting is not set in stone
from takeoff to landing. Say John is validly acting as PIC in Bob's
plane while being safety pilot. A problem arises, at which point Bob
tosses the "hood" and says "I got it". Bob is now PIC and resolves
whatever the issue. Bob's insurance company isn't going to care that
John was acting while Bob was under the hood, because in fact it makes
no more difference to the safety of flight whether Bob or John is acting
while Bob is under the hood. They both understand before the flight that
in the case of anything unusual occurring the simulated instrument
flight will discontinue until the issue is resolved, so there is no
insurance issue.
If Bob testifies that John in fact flew as his safety pilot and acted as
PIC while Bob was under the hood, his insurance company is unlikely to
hear about it, since your hypothetical costs Bob's insurance nothing,
there is no claim, and Bob is being diligent at maintaining currency.
John's insurance will be satisfied that his PIC time was in fact valid.
So Bob's insurance company is in fact not going to be upset with him.
I'm just pointing out that who is acting during any phase of flight can
change in a heartbeat. There just needs to be good cockpit resource
management and understanding between the two pilots. Simple version is
they agree that safety pilot will act as PIC while the pilot flying is
under the hood. If any urgent situation comes up, safety pilot will
advise(fly if necessary) while pilot flying removes hood and takes over.
Not to mention all the nonsense when insurance companies and FAA get
involved and they will assume barring evidence to contrary, that the
pilot most senior in ratings/experience in the cockpit is the PIC
regardless of which seat occupied, and many cases where FAA has issued
violations on that basis. I wasn't suggesting that anyone falsify what
they log, just that it isn't that difficult to swap back and forth who
is acting as PIC and logs the time.
It is trickier when 2 or more pilots desire to log PIC simultaneously.
The max number possible is a question reserved for bar bets.
On 8/22/2013 8:36 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
>
> Okay, I can agree with this - theoretically!
>
> I just do not like to see misinformation being distributed on the internet. If
you are going to log this type of time (PIC safety pilot time) you must claim
to be the actual PIC - being qualified is not enough.
>
> Getting back to the original topic, suppose "John" applies for insurance, and
says he has 300 hours of logged PIC time. He gets coverage, but unfortunately
soon after has an accident, his plane is totaled, plus he is being sued. The
insurance company asks to see his logbook, and they notice 50 hours logged as
PIC while serving as safety pilot in "Bob's" airplane. The insurance company
asks Bob to swear, under oath, that John did in fact serve as the person responsible
for the operation of Bob's airplane. Bob knows that if he says 'yes' not
only is he lying under oath, but his own insurance company, which would not
allow John to be PIC in Bob's plane, will be very unhappy.
>
> My point is, this is fudging the rules. Just be aware that there may be consequences.
No one will care unless you have an accident, or apply for a new rating
or license.
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407306#407306
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Flight time logging |
The truth is that, as you implied, who is really the PIC is only determined after
the fact, by a court or the NTSB (in FAA enforcement actions). I know of one
case where the court held the guy in the back seat to be the PIC.
In the example I gave, the insurance company is going to feel that John falsified
his application, by overstating his PIC time. The question is, what will a
judge and jury think? If Bob states that he was prepared, on a moment's notice,
to countermand any order John may have given, a reaonable jury could easily
find that John was never the real PIC, and therefore was not entitled to log the
safety pilot time as PIC time.
People can log whatever they want; but they should know that they may have to justify
and defend what they claimed, and at the most inopportune times.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407308#407308
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| Subject: | Re: Flight time logging |
My last argument before I call it a night.
Take a look at the definition of PIC in 14 CFR Part 1.
It says the PIC is "the final authority..."
If Bob can countermand John's orders, there is no way John can actually be the
PIC.
But I think we agree on what started all this: If you claim PIC time for time as
a safety pilot, you must also claim that you were the actual PIC, as defined
in part 1. Being qualified to be PIC is not enough.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407309#407309
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