---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/10/13: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:12 AM - Re: life of the Odyssey (Rob Kermanj) 2. 06:20 AM - Flying a Cat (johngoodman) 3. 07:16 AM - Re: life of the Odyssey (Carl Froehlich) 4. 07:39 AM - Re: Flying a Cat (Lyle Peterson) 5. 07:50 AM - Re: life of the Odyssey (Roger Standley) 6. 08:51 AM - Re: Flying a Cat (Dj Merrill) 7. 08:52 AM - Re: Flying a Cat (dmaib@me.com) 8. 08:55 AM - Re: life of the Odyssey (Dj Merrill) 9. 08:56 AM - Re: life of the Odyssey (Don McDonald) 10. 09:07 AM - Re: life of the Odyssey (Miller John) 11. 09:10 AM - Re: life of the Odyssey (Don McDonald) 12. 10:06 AM - Re: Flying a Cat (Michael Orth) 13. 11:38 AM - Re: life of the Odyssey (Bill Watson) 14. 12:24 PM - Re: life of the Odyssey (Bob Turner) 15. 12:56 PM - Re: Re: life of the Odyssey (John Cox) 16. 01:38 PM - Re: prop govenor (Jackm) 17. 01:52 PM - Re: life of the Odyssey (Bob Turner) 18. 02:17 PM - Re: Re: life of the Odyssey (Carl Froehlich) 19. 11:51 PM - Re: Re: Flying a Cat (Werner Schneider) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:47 AM PST US From: Rob Kermanj Subject: Re: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey Pascal, Did they give you the correct charger make an model? Do not archive On Sep 9, 2013, at 11:05 PM, Pascal wrote: > I was at Aircraft Spruce customer day last year and spoke with the head engineer at Odyssey. He told me if I used the =93correct=94 tricklecharger that the battery would last a good 10 years as a minimum. > > From: DLM > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 7:06 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey > > I have 2 680s running in parallel. they have started my 10 since 4/2008 (700+TT) and show no signs of failing to accept a charge or cranking the engine. How long should these be expected to work? Will they fail in a way that allows me to get back home to the hangar where I have two new 680s waiting? I am off to the Reno Races soon. > > N46007 > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?RV10-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:58 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Flying a Cat From: "johngoodman" I'm getting ready to fly two cats from Georgia to New Jersey. Vets lean towards 1mg/lb of Benadryl to calm them down. Also suggested to stuff cotton in their ears. Naturally, they are in small carriers. I'm thinking that the carriers in the rear seats would be better than baggage compartment. Comments? John -------- #40572 Phase One complete and flying. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408333#408333 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:57 AM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey Years ago I pulled a four year old PC-625 out of my RV-8A as normal preventative maintenance (replace one of the two batteries every two years). It has been running just fine as my tractor battery for the last 6 years. No trickle charger ever used. I chose not to have any one battery more than four years old not as insurance for engine start, but as insurance to have adequate amp/hr capacity for loss of alternator, one of one or both of the master relays, or associated common cabling between the alternator and batteries. I have tested the endurance of the electrical system on just battery power and have demonstrated full IFR capability (less lights/strobes/pitot heat) for more than 2 hours, the design point I selected. I duplicated this power distribution design (and a new battery every other year) in the RV-10 also using PC-625 batteries. Carl From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kermanj Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 5:12 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey Pascal, Did they give you the correct charger make an model? Do not archive On Sep 9, 2013, at 11:05 PM, Pascal wrote: I was at Aircraft Spruce customer day last year and spoke with the head engineer at Odyssey. He told me if I used the "correct" tricklecharger that the battery would last a good 10 years as a minimum. From: DLM Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 7:06 PM Subject: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey I have 2 680s running in parallel. they have started my 10 since 4/2008 (700+TT) and show no signs of failing to accept a charge or cranking the engine. How long should these be expected to work? Will they fail in a way that allows me to get back home to the hangar where I have two new 680s waiting? I am off to the Reno Races soon. N46007 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?RV10-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:56 AM PST US From: Lyle Peterson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flying a Cat I think that's a lot of Benadryl, but I'm not a doctor and I don't play one on TV. How do they ride in the car? The plane is louder. Will someone be with to talk to the cats, calm them, reassure them? Cats do respond to a calm human voice. They also respond to an angry human voice but in a different way. I'm sure cotton in their ears would drive them crazy. It wouldn't be there long. They don't tolerate objects in their ears well at all. Humans don't either but we know why we have ear plugs in place and tolerate them, sort of. If you place the cotton deep in their ears you risk injuring the ear. Some veterinarians, and human doctors too, don't consider the instincts of the patient when they make suggestions. Just my thoughts and worth every bit you paid for them. -- Lyle Peterson, EAA, PGR, AOPA, AAE, MBS, AMA, MSCE, EAA Chapter 237 On 9/10/2013 8:20 AM, johngoodman wrote: > > I'm getting ready to fly two cats from Georgia to New Jersey. Vets lean towards 1mg/lb of Benadryl to calm them down. Also suggested to stuff cotton in their ears. Naturally, they are in small carriers. > I'm thinking that the carriers in the rear seats would be better than baggage compartment. Comments? > > John > > -------- > #40572 Phase One complete and flying. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408333#408333 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:06 AM PST US From: Roger Standley Subject: RE: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey Ditto Carl=2C I pull my Concordes out every four years and into my lawn tra ctors. They work just great=2C much better than the spec tractor battery! Roger N291RV From: carl.froehlich@verizon.net Subject: RE: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey Years ago I pulled a four year old PC-625 out of my RV-8A as normal prevent ative maintenance (replace one of the two batteries every two years). It h as been running just fine as my tractor battery for the last 6 years. No t rickle charger ever used. I chose not to have any one battery more than fou r years old not as insurance for engine start=2C but as insurance to have a dequate amp/hr capacity for loss of alternator=2C one of one or both of the master relays=2C or associated common cabling between the alternator and b atteries. I have tested the endurance of the electrical system on just bat tery power and have demonstrated full IFR capability (less lights/strobes/p itot heat) for more than 2 hours=2C the design point I selected. I duplica ted this power distribution design (and a new battery every other year) in the RV-10 also using PC-625 batteries. Carl From: owner-rv10-list-server@ matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ro b Kermanj Sent: Tuesday=2C September 10=2C 2013 5:12 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey Pascal=2C Did they give you the correct charger make an model? Do not archive On Sep 9=2C 2013=2C at 11:0 5 PM=2C Pascal wrote: I was at Aircraft Spruce customer day last year and spoke with the head eng ineer at Odyssey. He told me if I used the =93correct=94 tricklecharger tha t the battery would last a good 10 years as a minimum. From: DLM Sent: Mond ay=2C September 09=2C 2013 7:06 PMTo: rv10-list@matronics.com Subject: RV10 -List: life of the Odyssey I have 2 680s running in parallel. they have sta rted my 10 since 4/2008 (700+TT) and show no signs of failing to accept a c harge or cranking the engine. How long should these be expected to work? Wi ll they fail in a way that allows me to get back home to the hangar where I have two new 680s waiting? I am off to the Reno Races soon. N46007 href ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?RV10-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matro nics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics .com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com/">http:/ /forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-L isthttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:35 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flying a Cat From: Dj Merrill On 9/10/2013 9:20 AM, johngoodman wrote: > > I'm getting ready to fly two cats from Georgia to New Jersey. Vets lean towards 1mg/lb of Benadryl to calm them down. Also suggested to stuff cotton in their ears. Naturally, they are in small carriers. > I'm thinking that the carriers in the rear seats would be better than baggage compartment. Comments? > How well do they ride in the car? I used to take my cat flying with me. He would curl up in the co-pilot seat and sleep most of the trip (and no drugs were involved... :-) ). -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87 Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:14 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Flying a Cat From: "dmaib@me.com" We've flown cats several times over the years. Our own cats and Pilots N Paws rescues. They do just fine in a carrier with no need for medication. Most of them go to sleep after airborne. I have had them in the back seat of our old Bonanza and in the back seat and luggage area of the -10. The -10 luggage area can get pretty chilly on long flights in cool or cold air and that is my only concern about the luggage area. I definitely would not try to stuff cotton or anything else in their ears! [Evil or Very Mad] -------- David Maib RV-10 #40559 Transition Trainer New Smyrna Beach, FL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408353#408353 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey From: Dj Merrill On 9/9/2013 11:05 PM, Pascal wrote: > I was at Aircraft Spruce customer day last year and spoke with the > head engineer at Odyssey. He told me if I used the correct > tricklecharger that the battery would last a good 10 years as a minimum. > That makes no sense to me. Did he also say you had to use a "special" alternator to use these batteries in an airplane? -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87 Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:18 AM PST US From: Don McDonald Subject: Re: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey I also have 2 680's, and I also agree with Pascal.... putting it on a batte ry minder every month or so, or when not flying for a period, also helps. - Flying since 6-09 and have had no issues.... that being said, I bought one new 680 which I will probably install soon so that I will end up with o ne new and one older.... with the idea of replacing one about every 5 years . =0A=0ADon Mc=0A=0AVetterman flyin was great.=0A=0A=0A=0A_________________ _______________=0A From: DLM =0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.c om =0ASent: Monday, September 9, 2013 9:06 PM=0ASubject: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey=0A =0A=0A=0AI have 2 680s running in =0Aparallel. they have st arted my 10 since 4/2008 (700+TT) and show no signs of =0Afailing to accept a charge or cranking the engine. How long should these be =0Aexpected to w ork? Will they fail in a way that allows me to get back home to the =0Ahang ar where I have two new 680s waiting? I am off to the Reno Races =0Asoon. ================= ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:52 AM PST US From: Miller John Subject: Re: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey I concur with his assessment. I also have dual 680s and both are on a trickle charger designed for aircraft gel cell batteries by Battery Minder. I pulled my original ones at 6 years, just because, and use them in the hangar for misc power requirements. Both are still running sound and solid. grumpy do not archive On Sep 9, 2013, at 10:05 PM, Pascal wrote: > I was at Aircraft Spruce customer day last year and spoke with the head engineer at Odyssey. He told me if I used the =93correct=94 tricklecharger that the battery would last a good 10 years as a minimum. > > From: DLM > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 7:06 PM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey > > I have 2 680s running in parallel. they have started my 10 since 4/2008 (700+TT) and show no signs of failing to accept a charge or cranking the engine. How long should these be expected to work? Will they fail in a way that allows me to get back home to the hangar where I have two new 680s waiting? I am off to the Reno Races soon. > > N46007 > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?RV10-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:16 AM PST US From: Don McDonald Subject: Re: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey That's because there is a difference between a battery tender and a battery minder.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Dj Merrill =0ATo: rv10-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 10:54 AM=0ASubject: Re: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey=0A =0A=0A =0AOn 9/9/2013 11:05 PM, Pascal wrote:=0A=0AI was at Aircraft Spruce custom er day last year and spoke with the head engineer at Odyssey. He told me if I used the =9Ccorrect=9D tricklecharger that the battery would last a good 10 years as a minimum.=0A>=0A=0A=C2-=C2-=C2- That makes no sense to me.=C2- Did he also say you had to use a=0A "special" alte rnator to use these batteries in an airplane?=0A=0A-Dj=0A=0A=0A-- =0ADj Mer rill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87=0ASportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - htt p://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ =0A =========== ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:33 AM PST US From: "Michael Orth" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flying a Cat Slightly off-topic but probably worth noting. My black lab loved to fly. He would jump in the airplane and immediately go to sleep...for a while. Then the combination of reduced air pressure (outside the dog) and the normal digestive gas (now relatively pressurized, inside the dog) combined to create a large steaming pile in the cabin. It happened more than once. Nothing like trying to clean up at a fuel island on a hot day. Experience speaking, Michael -----Original Message----- From: Dj Merrill Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 8:51 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flying a Cat On 9/10/2013 9:20 AM, johngoodman wrote: > > I'm getting ready to fly two cats from Georgia to New Jersey. Vets lean > towards 1mg/lb of Benadryl to calm them down. Also suggested to stuff > cotton in their ears. Naturally, they are in small carriers. > I'm thinking that the carriers in the rear seats would be better than > baggage compartment. Comments? > How well do they ride in the car? I used to take my cat flying with me. He would curl up in the co-pilot seat and sleep most of the trip (and no drugs were involved... :-) ). -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87 Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:46 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey Indeed there is. I ruined 2 PC-680s using the 'wrong' trickle charger. A "Battery Tender" brand charger as I recall. The problem, as I recall, is that certain older types of 'trickle' chargers are unable to fully charge a somewhat discharged AGM (Odyssey type) battery. If you attempt to use your battery on the bench and then put it on that type of trickle charger as I did, you will quickly or slowly kill it. The 'smarter' trickle chargers such as I presume the Batter Minder is, will work okay I guess. My solution has been to use a 10 amp smart charger from Walmart for all charging of any and all 12 volt batteries. It has settings for 3 types including AGM batteries. I charges at a high rate then goes into trickle mode once fully charged. It costs <$40. I've considered keeping a 2nd one for convenience. Don't operate it outside in the rain. Bill "with all his 12 volt batteries in tip top shape" Watson On 9/10/2013 12:10 PM, Don McDonald wrote: > That's because there is a difference between a battery tender and a > battery minder. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Dj Merrill > *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 10, 2013 10:54 AM > *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: life of the Odyssey > > On 9/9/2013 11:05 PM, Pascal wrote: >> I was at Aircraft Spruce customer day last year and spoke with the >> head engineer at Odyssey. He told me if I used the correct >> tricklecharger that the battery would last a good 10 years as a minimum. >> > > > That makes no sense to me. Did he also say you had to use a > "special" alternator to use these batteries in an airplane? > > -Dj > > -- > Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87 > Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ -http://deej.net/sportsman/ > Glastar Flyer N866RH -http://deej.net/glastar/ > > *http://www.matronics.c================= > > * > > > * > > > * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:18 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: life of the Odyssey From: "Bob Turner" I am on my second PC-925 (I think that is the model) and am slightly unhappy. Both batteries seem to have lost about 20% of their capacity. e.g., if I turn on the landing lights, within a few seconds the voltage drops to 12.4 volts. After that, the voltage drop with time is normal. It is as if I lost the top 20% of capacity. Yes, I bought and use the charger recommended and sold by Odyssey. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408378#408378 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: life of the Odyssey From: John Cox Bob, when possible can the model trickle-charger be identified so the discussion can morph to "The most effective" make & model? John 40600 On Sep 10, 2013 12:29 PM, "Bob Turner" wrote: > > I am on my second PC-925 (I think that is the model) and am slightly > unhappy. Both batteries seem to have lost about 20% of their capacity. > e.g., if I turn on the landing lights, within a few seconds the voltage > drops to 12.4 volts. After that, the voltage drop with time is normal. It > is as if I lost the top 20% of capacity. Yes, I bought and use the charger > recommended and sold by Odyssey. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408378#408378 > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:27 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: prop govenor From: "Jackm" Not flying yet but I have gone above engine. two reasons, To go with Show Planes cowl this is a requirement because lower install interferes with induction system, My engine block did not have the two threaded bolt pattern the baffle needs to secure right next to the prop cable bracket, therefore I used vans WA-153 bracket and routed above... I believe it is implement in the RV14 also. I also did not install the left inlet ramp heat muf intake. I moved mine to right rear next to the right heat muf intake...This was not my idea but came from here from a guy a whole lot smarter than me -------- Jackm Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408381#408381 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:22 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: life of the Odyssey From: "Bob Turner" My charger is the Odyssey OMAX-12A, recommended for the PC-925. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408384#408384 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:56 PM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: life of the Odyssey Measuring battery capacity by voltage is only valid if there is no load on the battery. See page 4 of the link: http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-OM-011_0213.pdf The other value of using Odyssey batteries is the exceptionally long shelf life. In most practical applications this eliminates any need for trickle charging. If you discharge the battery running the panel or such with no engine, then any standard charger for a short period of time will bring up the charge. I never leave a charger on the batteries. If you beat an Odyssey battery into the ground by leaving a master on for several days the battery is gone - replace it. You might breathe some life into it with a charger but the capacity is gone. Use it in a tractor or as a bench battery. You want the real deal in your airplane. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Turner Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 3:24 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: life of the Odyssey I am on my second PC-925 (I think that is the model) and am slightly unhappy. Both batteries seem to have lost about 20% of their capacity. e.g., if I turn on the landing lights, within a few seconds the voltage drops to 12.4 volts. After that, the voltage drop with time is normal. It is as if I lost the top 20% of capacity. Yes, I bought and use the charger recommended and sold by Odyssey. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408378#408378 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:52 PM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Flying a Cat What you could do is putting a soft blanket on top of the carrier so it would dampen the noise (leaving the font of the carrier free). What we did with our dog is to try out first a circuit, then a 30 min trip but we did use mutmuffs for ear protection. Cheers Werner On 10.09.2013 17:51, dmaib@me.com wrote: > > We've flown cats several times over the years. Our own cats and Pilots N Paws rescues. They do just fine in a carrier with no need for medication. Most of them go to sleep after airborne. I have had them in the back seat of our old Bonanza and in the back seat and luggage area of the -10. The -10 luggage area can get pretty chilly on long flights in cool or cold air and that is my only concern about the luggage area. > I definitely would not try to stuff cotton or anything else in their ears! [Evil or Very Mad] > > -------- > David Maib > RV-10 #40559 > Transition Trainer > New Smyrna Beach, FL > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=408353#408353 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.