Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:16 AM - Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed (rvdave)
2. 07:58 AM - Re: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed (Ron Walker)
3. 08:34 AM - Re: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed (Carl Froehlich)
4. 10:58 AM - Re: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed (Jim Combs)
5. 12:06 PM - Question to no pwr clean stall speeds (Mike Whisky)
6. 12:29 PM - Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds (Rene Felker)
7. 12:35 PM - Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds (Bob Turner)
8. 12:40 PM - Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds (Tim Olson)
9. 12:55 PM - Re: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed (Pascal)
10. 12:56 PM - Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds (Mike Whisky)
11. 01:52 PM - Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds (Carl Froehlich)
12. 03:31 PM - Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds (Bob Turner)
13. 05:37 PM - Re: Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds (Kelly McMullen)
14. 07:20 PM - Re: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed (rvdave)
15. 07:40 PM - Re: Re: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed (Kelly McMullen)
16. 08:08 PM - Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds (rv10flyer)
17. 08:18 PM - Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds (rv10flyer)
18. 08:25 PM - Re: Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds (PlaneAround,LLC)
19. 08:45 PM - Re: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed (rv10flyer)
20. 08:55 PM - Re: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed (rv10flyer)
21. 11:50 PM - Copperstate RV-10 Nest 2013 (woxofswa)
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| Subject: | Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed |
Instructions tell me to rivet top tailcone skin when riveting cabin cover. I see
no reason not to leave it off until things get completed behind baggage bulkhead.
I always thought though that I would be bucking rivets when attaching
cabin cover but it calls for cs4-4 rivets. I was thinking an426s since there
is a backing plate. Has anyone done this or not a good idea with the fiberglass?
Isn't this how the cowl hinges are attached?
--------
Dave Ford
RV6 flying
RV10 building
Cadillac, MI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409675#409675
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| Subject: | Re: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed |
Cowl hinge rivets are squeezed ... for the tailcone attach, they need to
be shot/bucked. Much bigger chance for cracking the fiberglass due to
slippage and overpressure.
On Wed, 2013-10-02 at 07:15 -0700, rvdave wrote:
> I always thought though that I would be bucking rivets when attaching
> cabin cover but it calls for cs4-4 rivets. I was thinking an426s
> since there is a backing plate. Has anyone done this or not a good
> idea with the fiberglass? Isn't this how the cowl hinges are
> attached?
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| Subject: | Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed |
Yep - don't final rivet until you really need to for door fit, window
install and finishing. Just before final install of the top is a good time
to finish the cabin top inside (paint or glue in your headliner) and final
paint the interior.
The CS4-4 rivets work just fine. After installing the cabin top recommend a
light micro balloon fill over the cabin to tail cone seam, sand, then a
couple of bids of med-light glass over the now filled and sanded seam.
After that a thin coat of balloons over the glass to fill in the weave, sand
and prep for paint. Do the same over the window/cabin top seams. Don't
just fill in with micro as you may get cracks in your paint right over the
window to cabin top seam.
Do the same on the cowl where you have rivets in fiberglass. This mitigates
rivet heads popping out just enough to ruin the nice finish paint job.
Carl
RV-8A (sold)
RV-10 (140 hrs)
RV-8 (start next summer)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rvdave
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 10:15 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed
Instructions tell me to rivet top tailcone skin when riveting cabin cover.
I see no reason not to leave it off until things get completed behind
baggage bulkhead. I always thought though that I would be bucking rivets
when attaching cabin cover but it calls for cs4-4 rivets. I was thinking
an426s since there is a backing plate. Has anyone done this or not a good
idea with the fiberglass? Isn't this how the cowl hinges are attached?
--------
Dave Ford
RV6 flying
RV10 building
Cadillac, MI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409675#409675
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| Subject: | Re: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed |
Follow the instructions. It all works just fine. No reason to anything differently
on this part of the build
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 2, 2013, at 10:15 AM, "rvdave" <rv610dave@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Instructions tell me to rivet top tailcone skin when riveting cabin cover. I
see no reason not to leave it off until things get completed behind baggage bulkhead.
I always thought though that I would be bucking rivets when attaching
cabin cover but it calls for cs4-4 rivets. I was thinking an426s since there
is a backing plate. Has anyone done this or not a good idea with the fiberglass?
Isn't this how the cowl hinges are attached?
>
> --------
> Dave Ford
> RV6 flying
> RV10 building
> Cadillac, MI
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409675#409675
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Question to no pwr clean stall speeds |
Hi,
I tested today my no power stall speeds at gross 2700 lbs and cg 113.8 in
She stalled clean at 73 KIAS which is about 13 kt more than expected.
I just want to confirm that the 60 KIAS are achieved with reflex flap (-3) and
not with 0 flaps? Controls were at the stop and buffeting started at 75-76 KIAS
Regards
Mike
--------
RV-10 builder (flying, test phase)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409702#409702
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| Subject: | Question to no pwr clean stall speeds |
When I tested, I settled on 49 KIAS for landing (full flaps) and 59 KIAS
clean (-3 degrees). I do not remember my AFT CG numbers being that much
different.....surely not 13 knots. I tested outside the aft envelop, but I
cannot remember by how much.
When I tested my airspeed indicator, I think I was only a couple of knots
off at 170 or so knots.
73 seems real fast......
Have you flown some GPS boxes, or triangles, to check you airspeed
indicator? Have you tested your static system?
Good luck, if you really are at 73 knots, your landings must be real
long.......
Rene' Felker
N423CF
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Whisky
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 1:06 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds
Hi,
I tested today my no power stall speeds at gross 2700 lbs and cg 113.8 in
She stalled clean at 73 KIAS which is about 13 kt more than expected.
I just want to confirm that the 60 KIAS are achieved with reflex flap (-3)
and not with 0 flaps? Controls were at the stop and buffeting started at
75-76 KIAS Regards Mike
--------
RV-10 builder (flying, test phase)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409702#409702
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| Subject: | Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds |
That does sound a little high. My testing came in at 64 KIAS, flaps in reflex (full
up). Remember that IAS typically is lower than CAS at high (stall) angle
of attack due to the pitot tube not being straight on. I cannot vouch for the
accuracy of my airspeed at these low numbers. I do know that at cruise speeds
they are within a knot or two of correct.
OTOH I do not know where your ideal of 60 kias came from. Van's claims gross weight
stall at 55 KIAS with full flaps.
Have you verified your airspeed readings? It's surprisingly easy for them to be
off if your static port is not reading true static pressure. My guess is that
it is much easier to have your IAS off than to have the stall speeds, which are
fixed by the structure, off. Unless of course your scales were off and you
are much heavier than you believe, which seems unlikely.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409706#409706
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| Subject: | Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds |
Before you do that, have you done the 3 way or 4 way GPS airspeed
calibration
to verify your airspeed is correct? It would be very hard for a plane
to be that
far out of norm with other RV-10's, so there is likely some pitot-static
error
or something else that is causing the number to be high. Also, you
talk about full stop and buffeting, but not if you were actually into
the stall.
The 60-62kt numbers you see are probably at full stall, past just the
buffeting.
Tim
On 10/2/2013 2:05 PM, Mike Whisky wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I tested today my no power stall speeds at gross 2700 lbs and cg 113.8 in
> She stalled clean at 73 KIAS which is about 13 kt more than expected.
> I just want to confirm that the 60 KIAS are achieved with reflex flap (-3) and
not with 0 flaps? Controls were at the stop and buffeting started at 75-76 KIAS
> Regards
> Mike
>
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| Subject: | Re: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed |
I used the CS4-4, was far easier than trying to rivet it with an426. Thus
far no cracks and the cabin cover hasn't fallen off yet!
Dont over engineer this. pop rivet it and throw a layer of resin and micro
over it if you want to make it look nice.
Pascal
-----Original Message-----
From: rvdave
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 7:15 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed
Instructions tell me to rivet top tailcone skin when riveting cabin cover.
I see no reason not to leave it off until things get completed behind
baggage bulkhead. I always thought though that I would be bucking rivets
when attaching cabin cover but it calls for cs4-4 rivets. I was thinking
an426s since there is a backing plate. Has anyone done this or not a good
idea with the fiberglass? Isn't this how the cowl hinges are attached?
--------
Dave Ford
RV6 flying
RV10 building
Cadillac, MI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409675#409675
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| Subject: | Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds |
Thanks for the answers. I am was referring to clean stall speed, I might not have
reached a full stall and was probably in caught buffeting down.
@Tim I did my airspeed calibration runs and the were within limits. However from
an engineering point of view that is the only possible error source as the wing
is the same as anyone else's. I guess I will redo my airspeed calibration
run tomorrow.
Mike
--------
RV-10 builder (flying, test phase)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409708#409708
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| Subject: | Question to no pwr clean stall speeds |
Some thoughts:
- The plane is very different at gross, so a stall higher than the typical
60 knots would be expected.
- 13 knots higher however is more than I ever got during weight testing.
- If you assume airspeed is off but airspeed calibration in level flight is
good, then I'd look at the static system for the error. Perhaps you are
creating a low pressure area near your static ports during the stall.
If everything else checks out, perhaps you can try stall with the static
line temporarily disconnected (as in you are using the inside of the plane
for static pressure) as a test.
On the RV-8A I originally had a dual pitot/static tube. At high angles of
attack the static port started to get ram air. The result was opposite of
yours - I was at '0' airspeed and still flying. I later moved the ports to
the traditional position but again encounter an error that demonstrated
itself as higher than actual airspeed indication and an altitude error. I
now use a couple of 3/16" round head rivets with a 1/16" hole drilled in the
center for the static ports. Simple install and no error.
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Whisky
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 3:06 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds
Hi,
I tested today my no power stall speeds at gross 2700 lbs and cg 113.8 in
She stalled clean at 73 KIAS which is about 13 kt more than expected.
I just want to confirm that the 60 KIAS are achieved with reflex flap (-3)
and not with 0 flaps? Controls were at the stop and buffeting started at
75-76 KIAS Regards Mike
--------
RV-10 builder (flying, test phase)
#511
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409702#409702
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| Subject: | Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds |
Your full flap number seems about right.
The flaps are very effective but I do not think they reduce the stall speed by
73-56=17 kts. Note that this would mean that the flaps increased the overall lift
coeficient by nearly 70%!
Here's an easy test: I think your efis will calculate a headwind or tailwind component
for you. At an altitude high enough that the wind stays constant, hold
altitude and heading, and start at the airspeed where you previously checked
it. Note headwind component. Smoothly slow to 70 kias, see if headwind component
changes as you near 73 kias. If so there's an airspeed calibration problem,
likely the static port.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409717#409717
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| Subject: | Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds |
Does anyone know the speed difference between start of buffet to actual
stall break?
On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Mike Whisky <rv-10@wellenzohn.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the answers. I am was referring to clean stall speed, I might
> not have reached a full stall and was probably in caught buffeting down.
> @Tim I did my airspeed calibration runs and the were within limits.
> However from an engineering point of view that is the only possible error
> source as the wing is the same as anyone else's. I guess I will redo my
> airspeed calibration run tomorrow.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> RV-10 builder (flying, test phase)
> #511
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409708#409708
>
>
--
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
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| Subject: | Re: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed |
Ok thanks just making sure I'm not missing something. I have the cabin top painted
interior wise and am now ready to commit to fastening it.
--------
Dave Ford
RV6 flying
RV10 building
Cadillac, MI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409734#409734
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| Subject: | Re: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed |
If you want, some folks have squeezed solid rivets under back windows as
far as squeezer yoke would reach.
On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 7:19 PM, rvdave <rv610dave@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ok thanks just making sure I'm not missing something. I have the cabin
> top painted interior wise and am now ready to commit to fastening it.
>
> --------
> Dave Ford
> RV6 flying
> RV10 building
> Cadillac, MI
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409734#409734
>
>
--
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
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| Subject: | Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds |
Mike Whisky wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I tested today my no power stall speeds at gross 2700 lbs and cg 113.8 in
> She stalled clean at 73 KIAS which is about 13 kt more than expected.
> I just want to confirm that the 60 KIAS are achieved with reflex flap (-3) and
not with 0 flaps? Controls were at the stop and buffeting started at 75-76 KIAS
> Regards
> Mike
Up high, no power...mine stalls at 54 kias full gross, full flaps, near aft cg
limit with family and baggage. It stalls at 64 kias with flaps set to reflex.
With full flaps there is very little tail shake before stalling due to increased
wing downwash. With no flaps, I have to hold stick full aft with "rocking horse"
motion as tail gets into wing wake/downwash. Difficult to get into a deep
stall with no flaps.
Flying solo, cg about 3/4" aft of fwd limit and full fuel, these numbers drop about
6 kias.
On landing, at stall 1' or less AGL, my IAS is about 8 kts higher. Of course I
don't pay any attention to ASI once below 10'-15' or so.
During stall practice my ailerons still have a little effectiveness, but I always
raise the wing with rudder. We practice as often as possible.
--------
Wayne G.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409743#409743
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| Subject: | Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds |
[quote="Kelly McMullen"]Does anyone know the speed difference between start of
buffet to actual stall break?
On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Mike Whisky wrote:
>
> Thanks for the answers. I am was referring to clean stall speed, I might not
have reached a full stall and was probably in caught buffeting down.
> @Tim I did my airspeed calibration runs and the were within limits. However
from an engineering point of view that is the only possible error source as the
wing is the same as anyone else's. I guess I will redo my airspeed calibration
run tomorrow.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> RV-10 builder (flying, test phase)
> #511
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409708#409708 (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409708#409708)
>
>
> See my last post too. No flaps...3-4 knots. No flaps...1-2 knots.
>
>
>
>
> ==========
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
>
--
- sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
> [b]
--------
Wayne G.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409744#409744
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| Subject: | Re: Question to no pwr clean stall speeds |
I have these numbers on my phone for 2300 lbs. I'm on the road right now. Fo
r some reason I just have these numbers
Of course the vans stall tab can be changed but these represent the differen
ce between stall horn and actual stall.
Flaps 30 stall 43 horn 60
Flaps 20 stall 48 horn 62
Flaps 0 stall 53 horn 63
Flaps -3 stall 57 horn 67
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 2, 2013, at 20:36, Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com> wrote:
> Does anyone know the speed difference between start of buffet to actual st
all break?
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Mike Whisky <rv-10@wellenzohn.net> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the answers. I am was referring to clean stall speed, I might n
ot have reached a full stall and was probably in caught buffeting down.
>> @Tim I did my airspeed calibration runs and the were within limits. Howev
er from an engineering point of view that is the only possible error source a
s the wing is the same as anyone else's. I guess I will redo my airspeed cal
ibration run tomorrow.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> --------
>> RV-10 builder (flying, test phase)
>> #511
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409708#409708
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>
>
>
> --
>
> - sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed |
Jim Combs wrote:
> Follow the instructions. It all works just fine. No reason to anything differently
on this part of the build
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 2, 2013, at 10:15 AM, "rvdave" wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > Instructions tell me to rivet top tailcone skin when riveting cabin cover.
I see no reason not to leave it off until things get completed behind baggage
bulkhead. I always thought though that I would be bucking rivets when attaching
cabin cover but it calls for cs4-4 rivets. I was thinking an426s since there
is a backing plate. Has anyone done this or not a good idea with the fiberglass?
Isn't this how the cowl hinges are attached?
> >
> > --------
> > Dave Ford
> > RV6 flying
> > RV10 building
> > Cadillac, MI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409675#409675
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Like Jim, I just followed the plans.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
Wayne G.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409746#409746
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| Subject: | Re: Riveting Cabin cover attachment-guess I haven't noticed |
n520tx(at)gmail.com wrote:
> Cowl hinge rivets are squeezed ... for the tailcone attach, they need to
> be shot/bucked. Much bigger chance for cracking the fiberglass due to
> slippage and overpressure.
>
> On Wed, 2013-10-02 at 07:15 -0700, rvdave wrote:
>
> > I always thought though that I would be bucking rivets when attaching
> > cabin cover but it calls for cs4-4 rivets. I was thinking an426s
> > since there is a backing plate. Has anyone done this or not a good
> > idea with the fiberglass? Isn't this how the cowl hinges are
> > attached?
> >
> >
>
Agree. Using a bucking bar/rivet gun, we get better rivet expansion and strength.
Rivet expansion is the thing you don't want with fiberglass or plexiglass.
--------
Wayne G.
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Copperstate RV-10 Nest 2013 |
I am in the early throws for planning the sixth (and last) RV-10 Nest at Copperstate
(AZ) 2012. Hopefully the seventh and last will be next year and my airborne
RV can join the land based one.
My land based RV will be there for the duration and serve as a crashpad for nesters
with lots of shade, seating, cold drinks, etc. Tent campers are welcome to
use my facilities as needed.
Carne Asada lunch will again be noonish on Saturday. The last couple of years we
have had several vendors join us for lunch and that has been popular. Reps from
Van's, Dynon, Advanced, Approach Stack and others have joined in and great
conversations have ensued. We even got a write up in the RVator.
The hardest part of the whole thing for me is provision planning. Those planning
on coming for lunch please let me know, and yes, friends and family who are
not RV-10ers are welcome.
Any other ideas or suggestions are welcome.
Myron
602 421-2868
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse on gear. FWF complete.
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409749#409749
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