---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/06/13: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... (Linn Walters) 2. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... (Tim Olson) 3. 09:25 AM - Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... (Bob Turner) 4. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... (Danny Riggs) 5. 09:50 AM - Re: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... (Linn Walters) 6. 09:54 AM - Re: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... (Rene Felker) 7. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... (JimVillani) 8. 09:57 AM - Re: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... (Tim Olson) 9. 10:05 AM - Re: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... (JimVillani) 10. 12:41 PM - Re: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... (Carl Froehlich) 11. 03:03 PM - Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... (Bob Turner) 12. 05:12 PM - Re: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... (Linn Walters) 13. 05:29 PM - Re: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... (Carl Froehlich) 14. 05:41 PM - Re: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... (Linn Walters) 15. 07:22 PM - Re: rudder trim RV-10 (bob88) 16. 07:29 PM - Re: rudder trim RV-10 (Jim Berry) 17. 08:34 PM - Re: Re: rudder trim RV-10 (Rene) 18. 08:45 PM - Re: Re: rudder trim RV-10 (Pascal) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:48 AM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... Since I'm not there yet, is the flap speed really a 'problem' worth all this trouble? Is the flap position 'critical' for safe operation? Linn On 12/5/2013 2:23 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > A few thoughts. > I like to cruise with the flap switch in the off position, but your set up requires one to leave it in the up position. If the flap limit switch fails the flap motor will run continuously. > If one desires to take off with no flaps (-3 reflex) he has to put the switch in the off position - opposite of cruise. My point is, there are operational choices to be made, so this is not too different from just putting in a dedicated trim speed switch. > I found it difficult to slow the trim as much as I would like, using just lower voltages, without using voltages so low that the trim motor would stall. Since you've already got some electronics there, for just a few bucks more you could put in a pulse width modulation system and adjust it to go as slow as you like. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414938#414938 > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:53 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... Flap speed is not a problem. Elevator trim speed is definitely a problem in cruise, and I'd call it critical for safe operation that the speed be reduced above about 110kts. Tim On 12/6/2013 11:09 AM, Linn Walters wrote: > > Since I'm not there yet, is the flap speed really a 'problem' worth > all this trouble? Is the flap position 'critical' for safe operation? > Linn > > On 12/5/2013 2:23 PM, Bob Turner wrote: >> >> A few thoughts. >> I like to cruise with the flap switch in the off position, but your >> set up requires one to leave it in the up position. If the flap limit >> switch fails the flap motor will run continuously. >> If one desires to take off with no flaps (-3 reflex) he has to put >> the switch in the off position - opposite of cruise. My point is, >> there are operational choices to be made, so this is not too >> different from just putting in a dedicated trim speed switch. >> I found it difficult to slow the trim as much as I would like, using >> just lower voltages, without using voltages so low that the trim >> motor would stall. Since you've already got some electronics there, >> for just a few bucks more you could put in a pulse width modulation >> system and adjust it to go as slow as you like. >> >> -------- >> Bob Turner >> RV-10 QB >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414938#414938 >> >> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:34 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... From: "Bob Turner" I think you mis-read, this post is about pitch trim motor speed, not flap speeds. One poster has tied a change in trim speed to his flap position, others are using a speed sensitive device (safe trim). Yes, the trim speed as it comes from Vans is about right for takeoff and landing but too fast for cruise. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414984#414984 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:53 AM PST US From: Danny Riggs Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... I've not found the trim speed to be that much of a problem. I just have 'bu mped' the hat switch in the direction it needs trim. At least that's the wa y it works on the -10 I've flown. My suggestion is to see how your plane o perates and then make changes as needed. There may be some variations betwe en individual systems and or operator desires. > Date: Fri=2C 6 Dec 2013 12:09:57 -0500 > From: flying-nut@cfl.rr.com > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... > > > Since I'm not there yet=2C is the flap speed really a 'problem' worth all > this trouble? Is the flap position 'critical' for safe operation? > Linn > > On 12/5/2013 2:23 PM=2C Bob Turner wrote: > > > > A few thoughts. > > I like to cruise with the flap switch in the off position=2C but your s et up requires one to leave it in the up position. If the flap limit switch fails the flap motor will run continuously. > > If one desires to take off with no flaps (-3 reflex) he has to put the switch in the off position - opposite of cruise. My point is=2C there are o perational choices to be made=2C so this is not too different from just put ting in a dedicated trim speed switch. > > I found it difficult to slow the trim as much as I would like=2C using just lower voltages=2C without using voltages so low that the trim motor wo uld stall. Since you've already got some electronics there=2C for just a fe w bucks more you could put in a pulse width modulation system and adjust it to go as slow as you like. > > > > -------- > > Bob Turner > > RV-10 QB > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414938#414938 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:02 AM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... Thanks Bob, getting old sucks!!! So, to continue on with the thread, why not install a PW control as you suggested or run the trim off 6V? Linn On 12/6/2013 12:25 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > I think you mis-read, this post is about pitch trim motor speed, not flap speeds. One poster has tied a change in trim speed to his flap position, others are using a speed sensitive device (safe trim). > Yes, the trim speed as it comes from Vans is about right for takeoff and landing but too fast for cruise. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414984#414984 > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:54:54 AM PST US From: "Rene Felker" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... I have not had a problem. I did put in the safety trim system so the most I can do is 3 seconds at a time. I think 3 seconds at cruse could lead to a little bit of challenge, but not impossible to handle. Rene' Felker N423CF 801-721-6080 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Danny Riggs Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 10:42 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... I've not found the trim speed to be that much of a problem. I just have 'bumped' the hat switch in the direction it needs trim. At least that's the way it works on the -10 I've flown. My suggestion is to see how your plane operates and then make changes as needed. There may be some variations between individual systems and or operator desires. > Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 12:09:57 -0500 > From: flying-nut@cfl.rr.com > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... > > > Since I'm not there yet, is the flap speed really a 'problem' worth all > this trouble? Is the flap position 'critical' for safe operation? > Linn > > On 12/5/2013 2:23 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > > > A few thoughts. > > I like to cruise with the flap switch in the off position, but your set up requires one to leave it in the up position. If the flap limit switch fails the flap motor will run continuously. > > If one desires to take off with no flaps (-3 reflex) he has to put the switch in the off position - opposite of cruise. My point is, there are operational choices to be made, so this is not too different from just putting in a dedicated trim speed switch. > > I found it difficult to slow the trim as much as I would like, using just lower voltages, without using voltages so low that the trim motor would stall. Since you've already got some electronics there, for just a few bucks more you could put in a pulse width modulation system and adjust it to go as slow as you like. > > > > -------- > > Bob Turner > > RV-10 QB > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414938#414938 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:55:02 AM PST US From: "JimVillani" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... I use to bump my hat also with limited control. With the speed reduction in cruse position your adjustment is so fine it is almost like an altitude hold. A 30% reduction in speed really makes a difference in feathering the trim. Jim Villani Kit# 41084 Jim@JimVillani.com From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Danny Riggs Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 9:43 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... I've not found the trim speed to be that much of a problem. I just have 'bumped' the hat switch in the direction it needs trim. At least that's the way it works on the -10 I've flown. My suggestion is to see how your plane operates and then make changes as needed. There may be some variations between individual systems and or operator desires. > Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 12:09:57 -0500 > From: flying-nut@cfl.rr.com > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... > > > > Since I'm not there yet, is the flap speed really a 'problem' worth all > this trouble? Is the flap position 'critical' for safe operation? > Linn > > On 12/5/2013 2:23 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > > > > A few thoughts. > > I like to cruise with the flap switch in the off position, but your set up requires one to leave it in the up position. If the flap limit switch fails the flap motor will run continuously. > > If one desires to take off with no flaps (-3 reflex) he has to put the switch in the off position - opposite of cruise. My point is, there are operational choices to be made, so this is not too different from just putting in a dedicated trim speed switch. > > I found it difficult to slow the trim as much as I would like, using just lower voltages, without using voltages so low that the trim motor would stall. Since you've already got some electronics there, for just a few bucks more you could put in a pulse width modulation system and adjust it to go as slow as you like. > > > > -------- > > Bob Turner > > RV-10 QB > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414938#414938 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:41 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... Danny, This isn't an issue of how easy it is to trim, this is an issue of safety. Yes, bumping it for a fraction of a second will indeed make it trim reasonably slow and you can indeed use it that way. The issue of safety is what happens when you accidently hit the switch. Even as early as my flyoff period, I had a clipboard hit the trim hat, and within a couple seconds I was in a hard nose-up climb. I did some testing later after adding safety trim to see just how bad it gets, and really if you have anything (ipad, book, checklist, chart, person) lay on that switch for a full second or more, it gets scary and for much longer than a second you could get close to having g-rating problems perhaps. So best to just do speed reduction for sure. The side benefit is that you can then even have MORE fine control over trim, because that same bump you use now is reduced to maybe 1/8th what it is. Tim On 12/6/2013 11:42 AM, Danny Riggs wrote: > I've not found the trim speed to be that much of a problem. I just > have 'bumped' the hat switch in the direction it needs trim. At least > that's the way it works on the -10 I've flown. My suggestion is to > see how your plane operates and then make changes as needed. There may > be some variations between individual systems and or operator desires. > > > Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 12:09:57 -0500 > > From: flying-nut@cfl.rr.com > > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... > > > > > > Since I'm not there yet, is the flap speed really a 'problem' worth all > > this trouble? Is the flap position 'critical' for safe operation? > > Linn > > > > On 12/5/2013 2:23 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > > > > > A few thoughts. > > > I like to cruise with the flap switch in the off position, but > your set up requires one to leave it in the up position. If the flap > limit switch fails the flap motor will run continuously. > > > If one desires to take off with no flaps (-3 reflex) he has to put > the switch in the off position - opposite of cruise. My point is, > there are operational choices to be made, so this is not too different > from just putting in a dedicated trim speed switch. > > > I found it difficult to slow the trim as much as I would like, > using just lower voltages, without using voltages so low that the trim > motor would stall. Since you've already got some electronics there, > for just a few bucks more you could put in a pulse width modulation > system and adjust it to go as slow as you like. > > > > > > -------- > > > Bob Turner > > > RV-10 QB > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:58 AM PST US From: "JimVillani" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... I concur 100%. That is what drove me to slow it down, a sudden bump and you are in another world. Jim Villani Kit# 41084 Jim@JimVillani.com From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 9:57 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... Danny, This isn't an issue of how easy it is to trim, this is an issue of safety. Yes, bumping it for a fraction of a second will indeed make it trim reasonably slow and you can indeed use it that way. The issue of safety is what happens when you accidently hit the switch. Even as early as my flyoff period, I had a clipboard hit the trim hat, and within a couple seconds I was in a hard nose-up climb. I did some testing later after adding safety trim to see just how bad it gets, and really if you have anything (ipad, book, checklist, chart, person) lay on that switch for a full second or more, it gets scary and for much longer than a second you could get close to having g-rating problems perhaps. So best to just do speed reduction for sure. The side benefit is that you can then even have MORE fine control over trim, because that same bump you use now is reduced to maybe 1/8th what it is. Tim On 12/6/2013 11:42 AM, Danny Riggs wrote: I've not found the trim speed to be that much of a problem. I just have 'bumped' the hat switch in the direction it needs trim. At least that's the way it works on the -10 I've flown. My suggestion is to see how your plane operates and then make changes as needed. There may be some variations between individual systems and or operator desires. > Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 12:09:57 -0500 > From: flying-nut@cfl.rr.com > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... > > > Since I'm not there yet, is the flap speed really a 'problem' worth all > this trouble? Is the flap position 'critical' for safe operation? > Linn > > On 12/5/2013 2:23 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > > > A few thoughts. > > I like to cruise with the flap switch in the off position, but your set up requires one to leave it in the up position. If the flap limit switch fails the flap motor will run continuously. > > If one desires to take off with no flaps (-3 reflex) he has to put the switch in the off position - opposite of cruise. My point is, there are operational choices to be made, so this is not too different from just putting in a dedicated trim speed switch. > > I found it difficult to slow the trim as much as I would like, using just lower voltages, without using voltages so low that the trim motor would stall. Since you've already got some electronics there, for just a few bucks more you could put in a pulse width modulation system and adjust it to go as slow as you like. > > > > -------- > > Bob Turner > > RV-10 QB > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:41:20 PM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... I have the flap controller install just as Van's provides. Works just fine. Flap position indication is a simple look out the window. I have the two speed safety trim controller and I recommend it. After 10 years of flying an 8A with just the single speed elevator & aileron trim I am used to not having the slow trim speed option - so I rarely use it in the RV-10. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Linn Walters Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 12:10 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... Since I'm not there yet, is the flap speed really a 'problem' worth all this trouble? Is the flap position 'critical' for safe operation? Linn On 12/5/2013 2:23 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > A few thoughts. > I like to cruise with the flap switch in the off position, but your set up requires one to leave it in the up position. If the flap limit switch fails the flap motor will run continuously. > If one desires to take off with no flaps (-3 reflex) he has to put the switch in the off position - opposite of cruise. My point is, there are operational choices to be made, so this is not too different from just putting in a dedicated trim speed switch. > I found it difficult to slow the trim as much as I would like, using just lower voltages, without using voltages so low that the trim motor would stall. Since you've already got some electronics there, for just a few bucks more you could put in a pulse width modulation system and adjust it to go as slow as you like. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414938#414938 > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:55 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... From: "Bob Turner" Tim Olson wrote: > > > The issue of safety is what happens when you accidently hit the switch. > > Tim > > > > [b] Because of this I did not put a top hat on the right side (there is a panel rocker switch for when I fly from the right seat). -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415016#415016 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:16 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... I wired both stick in parallel ..... with a switch in the co-pilot ground to disable that stick. All the other buttons on the co-pilot side can cause consternation to the pilot!!!! Linn On 12/6/2013 6:03 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > > Tim Olson wrote: > > The issue of safety is what happens when you accidently hit the switch. > > Tim > Because of this I did not put a top hat on the right side (there is a panel rocker switch for when I fly from the right seat). > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415016#415016 > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:50 PM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... Yep - I did the same except the switch on the panel controls the common ground such that the pilot or co-pilot trim top hat and flaps work. This way if the pilot stick switch breaks (as on sticks shut) moving the panel toggle switch to the co-pilot position isolates the fault as well as restores trim/flap control buy using the co-pilot grip switches. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Linn Walters Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 8:11 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... I wired both stick in parallel ..... with a switch in the co-pilot ground to disable that stick. All the other buttons on the co-pilot side can cause consternation to the pilot!!!! Linn On 12/6/2013 6:03 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > > Tim Olson wrote: > > The issue of safety is what happens when you accidently hit the switch. > > Tim > Because of this I did not put a top hat on the right side (there is a panel rocker switch for when I fly from the right seat). > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415016#415016 > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:32 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: RV 10 Aileron Trim easy fix... I like that idea! Simple switch change. Thanks. Linn On 12/6/2013 8:28 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote: > > Yep - I did the same except the switch on the panel controls the common > ground such that the pilot or co-pilot trim top hat and flaps work. This > way if the pilot stick switch breaks (as on sticks shut) moving the panel > toggle switch to the co-pilot position isolates the fault as well as > restores trim/flap control buy using the co-pilot grip switches. > > Carl ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:16 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: rudder trim RV-10 From: "bob88" Anyone have experience with the electric rudder trim kit that is available for the RV10? Is rudder trim important in the 10? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415035#415035 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:25 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: rudder trim RV-10 From: "Jim Berry" I have rudder trim in my -10, and like it. That said, I consider it a nice to have feature, not something essential. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415036#415036 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:49 PM PST US From: "Rene" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: rudder trim RV-10 Same here................. Rene' N423CF 801-721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Berry Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 8:29 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: rudder trim RV-10 I have rudder trim in my -10, and like it. That said, I consider it a nice to have feature, not something essential. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=415036#415036 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:30 PM PST US From: "Pascal" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: rudder trim RV-10 I have a tab on the rudder, ball is pretty much centered in cruise most of the time. You will need something more than nothing. Pascal -----Original Message----- From: bob88 Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 7:21 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: rudder trim RV-10 Anyone have experience with the electric rudder trim kit that is available for the RV10? Is rudder trim important in the 10? 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