Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:27 AM - LiFePo4 Battery on the Firewall, Part II (Ed Kranz)
2. 12:48 PM - NavWorx ADS-B (Bill Reining)
3. 01:59 PM - Re: NavWorx ADS-B (Bill Watson)
4. 02:52 PM - Dynon after the sale customer service (Carl Froehlich)
5. 02:53 PM - FW: Dynon after the sale customer service (Carl Froehlich)
6. 03:46 PM - Re: LiFePo4 Battery on the Firewall, Part II (Carl Froehlich)
7. 07:07 PM - Re: NavWorx ADS-B (Kelly McMullen)
8. 07:11 PM - Re: NavWorx ADS-B (Miller John)
9. 07:40 PM - Re: NavWorx ADS-B (Tim Olson)
10. 07:47 PM - Re: NavWorx ADS-B (Kelly McMullen)
11. 07:58 PM - Re: NavWorx ADS-B (Tim Olson)
12. 08:50 PM - Re: NavWorx ADS-B (PReid)
Message 1
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| Subject: | LiFePo4 Battery on the Firewall, Part II |
(Cross Posted from the "other" discussion)
The feedback to my initial question has been great! Discussions like this
are always a good thing!
I've gathered some more data, based on some of the concerns raised in this
discussion. The main issues brought up are
1: Safety
2: Performance and capacity
3: Weight and Balance.
Warning! Info dump to follow!
1: Safety
I looked at a few scientific research papers on the safety of LiFePo4
battery cells, and I was actually able to understand some of the words!
After uncrossing my eyes, I actually searched something asked for in this
discussion; what do these cells do when they are abused. I found some
interesting videos:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IBapfB0Imo[/url] - Full Destruction
of a charged cell
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiTqY4FY1yk[/url] - Penetration Test
1
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZf2pKzBErk[/url] - Penetration Test
2
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XymqQ-YlfJ0[/url] - Over Charge
Also, here is some information from Wikipedia, which I know is NOT a
infallible source:
[url]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery#Safety[/url]
And Finally, from [url]http://www.mpoweruk.com/lithiumS.htm[/url] :
Phosphate based technology possesses superior thermal and chemical
stability which provides better safety characteristics than those of
Lithium-ion technology made with other cathode materials. Lithium phosphate
cells are incombustible in the event of mishandling during charge or
discharge, they are more stable under overcharge or short circuit
conditions and they can withstand high temperatures without decomposing.
When abuse does occur, the phosphate based cathode material will not burn
and is not prone to thermal runaway. Phosphate chemistry also offers a
longer cycle life.
Recent developments have produced a range of new environmentally friendly
cathode active materials based on Lithiated transition metal phosphates for
Lithium-ion applications.
2: Performance and Capacity
Some of the questions brought up relating to this were the operating
temperatures that a LiFePo4 battery would encounter on the firewall of an
RV10. I had asked the EarthX rep this question at Osh, and his response was
this: "The operating range of the EarthX battery is wider than a comparable
Odyssey SLA battery". This looks to be mostly true, as the Odyssey manual
lists the range without a protective metal case to be only good to 113=C2
=B0F,
but 176=C2=B0F with an added shield. I'd imagine that you could add a simil
ar,
or even the same shield to the EarthX to get even more temperature range.
Also, a few of our fellow RV10 pilots are going to stick some temperature
probes on the firewall in a few places to see what the requirements really
are. As it stands today, it doesn't sound like temperature is going to be
an issue.
Odyssey Operating Temperature Range
PC545, PC680, PC925, PC1200 and PC1700 without metal jacket: -40=C2=B0C (-4
0=C2=B0F)
to 45=C2=B0C (113=C2=B0F),
PC545, PC680, PC925, PC1200 and PC1700 with metal jacket: -40=C2=B0C (-40
=C2=B0F) to
80=C2=B0C (176=C2=B0F),
EarthX Operating Temperature Range
Operating Temperature* -30=C2=B0C (-22=C2=B0F) to +60 =C2=B0C (140=C2=B0F)
Storage Temperature -40=C2=B0C (-40=C2=B0F) to +60 =C2=B0C (140=C2=B0F)
EarthX Discharge Versus Temperature
We use a similar Cold Cranking Amp test standard (SAE test performed at
0=C2=B0F, but 3
second discharge time) as the lead acid battery manufacturers. As such, our
battery with a
similar CCA rating as a lead acid battery should provide the same cranking
performance
at 0=C2=B0F. But, below 0=C2=B0F an equivalent lead acid battery will outpe
rform a
lithium battery
(From [url]
http://earthxmotorsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/ETX_Manual_111017_G
.pdf[/url]
)
As far as capacity, the EarthX battery that I am considering has 12ah.
According to Skytec's specs, the 149-NL starter that I'm going to use has a
draw of 125-185 amps. The 12ah battery will give me almost 4 minutes of
solid cranking at the highest spec'd starter draw. As far as electrical
emergency capacity, between whatever is left in the starter battery (say
after 2 minutes of engine crank) and a 6ah TCW backup battery, I'll have
12ah, which at 6 amps of draw (rough estimate) gives me two hours of
endurance buss time. And that is if both the primary and secondary
alternators fail.
3: Weight and Balance
Taking the suggestion of a few people in this discussion, we figured out an
example weight and balance for a generic RV10, found the arms of the
battery tray and the firewall, and ran the numbers with a 26lb battery in
the tail, and a 4lb battery on the firewall. Even with the battery on the
firewall and 26lbs removed from the tail, it's difficult to get the plane
into a CG past the forward limits. Pretty much any weight you carry in the
plane pushes the CG back. So, worst case scenario would be a light pilot on
low fuel. Even with the stock battery in the stock location, you'll be
forward of the CG limit. Adding ~40 lbs in the baggage area will keep the
plane within CG in this light configuration, and have the benefit of being
removable when carrying capacity is needed. If even a single 65lb person is
in the back seat, this extra weight isn't needed.
The real problem is hitting the aft CG before you hit gross weight,
because, as I stated before, pretty much every pound you add pushed the CG
rearward. Because of this, I personally would prefer to have a CG as far
forward as possible to give me more options.
Basically, having the battery in the tail only moves the cg aft 1" in a
single pilot no fuel scenario
but allows you to carry 30lbs more baggage in a full gross scenario.
The one thing these numbers don't include are the weight and CG changes
from removing the large #2 power cable from the tailcone to the firewall.
Thehe WnB spreadsheet I've used for my numbers is here:
[url]http://www.edandcolleen.com/files/RV10WeightBalance.xlsx[/url]
Thanks to Justin Twilbeck for throwing this together for me. (It even has a
calculation for the loading needed to cause a tailstrike! Good stuff!)
Message 2
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Kelly and All
After reading your comments posted Saturday, I went back to the NavWorx booth and
was fortunate to get some quality time with Bill Moffitt. I told him I was
concerned that I didn't have a clear picture of his product and it's status,
nor did others in the RV-10 community. He was kind enough to bring me up-to-date.
Note - I am in no way affiliated with NavWorx - I'm just an interested 182
owner and RV-10 builder.
The NavWorx products are a Universal Access Transceiver (UAT). They send out,
and receive in, ADS-B information. It is the "out" requirement that will be mandatory
in all aircraft as of January first, 2020. There is another way to meet
the "out" requirement - a transponder with extended squitter (ES). NavWorx
does not offer such a transponder. Aircraft that fly above 18,000 feet within
the US, or that fly internationally, will have to have an ES transponder.
This may be a deciding factor for the RV-10, considering it's performance. (It
is not so for my lower performance Cessna 182 in California, unless the Canadians
and Mexicans really get on the bandwagon.) Bear in mind that if you only
install an ES transponder to meet the requirement, it does not receive the free
ADS-B "in" traffic and weather information.
NavWorx has two basic models, both of which are TSO'd and have an STC/AML for installation
in all aircraft, whether certified, experimental, or LSA. These models
are the ADS600-B ($2399) and the ADS600-BG ($3499, drops to $2899 on 4/1/2016).
They are identical except for their internal GPS. The -B has a non-compliant
GPS internal to it, and can be used today through 1/1/2020. After 1/1/2020,
and to meet the mandate, the -BG will be required. The -B can be upgraded
to the -BG after April 1, 2016 for $500, though that cost is likely to fall
by the time 2020 arrives. Both models are available now.
The fact that the NavWorx products have their own GPS makes installation pretty
simple. The transceiver is remotely mounted. There is no control panel. Two
new antennas are required: one for the internal GPS, the other for the ADS-B
signal. (The antennas are an additional cost: for certified aircraft they cost
$499, for experimental and LSA $89.99.)
A clever "TransMon" (looks kinda like a dongle) is strapped to the current mode
C transponder's coax cable that runs between the transponder and it's antenna.
The TransMon picks up the current code being squawked, the altitude being reported,
and whether an IDENT signal is being sent.
The transceiver must be connected to electrical power (9 to 33 volts DC at 0.5A
for 14 volts, or .33A for 28 volts.)
The only other connection is to the device to be used to display the incoming ADS-B
information (traffic and weather). NavWorx has reverse engineered many of
the current, and legacy displays (such as the MX-20 in my 182). NavWorx will
display the weather and traffic on the Garmin handhelds, beginning with the
GPSMAP-396 and up, including the AERA. It is compatible with Aspen displays.
The information will be presented on any of these displays per the original device's
design, without any extra hardware. There are some systems which will
not work with the NavWorx "in" information (traffic and weather), due to their
proprietary design. These include Dynon products and the Garmin 650, 750 and
G3X.)
NavWorx also offers, as an accessory, a WiFi module, for $120. The WiFi module
will allow the ADS-B "in" information to be displayed on a tablet, such as the
iPad (if the app accepts it - ForeFlight may be a problem.) NavWorx will do
2 displays at once (e.g. something on the panel and a tablet.)
For those who may consider both a UAT and an "extended squitter" transponder, the
NavWorx can supply the necessary GPS data to the ES transponder.
Bill estimates a shop that has sufficient experience installing ADS-B equipment
can install the NavWorx equipment in about 15 man hours. Of course the experimental
community can do so themselves.
I realize this message is pretty long-winded, but I hope the information is useful.
Bill Reining
RV-10 40514 (QB wings)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: NavWorx ADS-B |
Thanks for the summary.
I've had the "B" model unit installed and flying for over a year.
Displaying the ADSB-in weather and traffic on my GRTs and seemingly
doing the ADSB-out. I talked to Bill briefly and was relieved to hear
that my box would be upgradeable when needed.
Wifi support for FF would make life complete.
On 8/7/2014 3:48 PM, Bill Reining wrote:
>
> Kelly and All
> After reading your comments posted Saturday, I went back to the NavWorx booth
and was fortunate to get some quality time with Bill Moffitt. I told him I was
concerned that I didn't have a clear picture of his product and it's status,
nor did others in the RV-10 community. He was kind enough to bring me up-to-date.
Note - I am in no way affiliated with NavWorx - I'm just an interested
182 owner and RV-10 builder.
> The NavWorx products are a Universal Access Transceiver (UAT). They send out,
and receive in, ADS-B information. It is the "out" requirement that will be
mandatory in all aircraft as of January first, 2020. There is another way to
meet the "out" requirement - a transponder with extended squitter (ES). NavWorx
does not offer such a transponder. Aircraft that fly above 18,000 feet within
the US, or that fly internationally, will have to have an ES transponder.
This may be a deciding factor for the RV-10, considering it's performance.
(It is not so for my lower performance Cessna 182 in California, unless the Canadians
and Mexicans really get on the bandwagon.) Bear in mind that if you only
install an ES transponder to meet the requirement, it does not receive the
free ADS-B "in" traffic and weather information.
> NavWorx has two basic models, both of which are TSO'd and have an STC/AML for
installation in all aircraft, whether certified, experimental, or LSA. These
models are the ADS600-B ($2399) and the ADS600-BG ($3499, drops to $2899 on 4/1/2016).
They are identical except for their internal GPS. The -B has a non-compliant
GPS internal to it, and can be used today through 1/1/2020. After
1/1/2020, and to meet the mandate, the -BG will be required. The -B can be upgraded
to the -BG after April 1, 2016 for $500, though that cost is likely to
fall by the time 2020 arrives. Both models are available now.
> The fact that the NavWorx products have their own GPS makes installation pretty
simple. The transceiver is remotely mounted. There is no control panel.
Two new antennas are required: one for the internal GPS, the other for the ADS-B
signal. (The antennas are an additional cost: for certified aircraft they
cost $499, for experimental and LSA $89.99.)
> A clever "TransMon" (looks kinda like a dongle) is strapped to the current mode
C transponder's coax cable that runs between the transponder and it's antenna.
The TransMon picks up the current code being squawked, the altitude being
reported, and whether an IDENT signal is being sent.
> The transceiver must be connected to electrical power (9 to 33 volts DC at 0.5A
for 14 volts, or .33A for 28 volts.)
> The only other connection is to the device to be used to display the incoming
ADS-B information (traffic and weather). NavWorx has reverse engineered many
of the current, and legacy displays (such as the MX-20 in my 182). NavWorx will
display the weather and traffic on the Garmin handhelds, beginning with the
GPSMAP-396 and up, including the AERA. It is compatible with Aspen displays.
The information will be presented on any of these displays per the original
device's design, without any extra hardware. There are some systems which will
not work with the NavWorx "in" information (traffic and weather), due to their
proprietary design. These include Dynon products and the Garmin 650, 750
and G3X.)
> NavWorx also offers, as an accessory, a WiFi module, for $120. The WiFi module
will allow the ADS-B "in" information to be displayed on a tablet, such as
the iPad (if the app accepts it - ForeFlight may be a problem.) NavWorx will
do 2 displays at once (e.g. something on the panel and a tablet.)
> For those who may consider both a UAT and an "extended squitter" transponder,
the NavWorx can supply the necessary GPS data to the ES transponder.
> Bill estimates a shop that has sufficient experience installing ADS-B equipment
can install the NavWorx equipment in about 15 man hours. Of course the experimental
community can do so themselves.
> I realize this message is pretty long-winded, but I hope the information is useful.
>
> Bill Reining
> RV-10 40514 (QB wings)
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
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| Subject: | Dynon after the sale customer service |
I am again pleased to report on Dynon's superb after the sale service. I've
been flying my RV-10 for over two years. The last couple of IFR flights in
less than smooth air I noted some slippage of the pitch autopilot servo. A
while back Dynon came out with a servo for the RV-10 with more torque and
today they shipped one to me for exchange of my old servo. No charge.
It just does not get any better than that.
Carl
Message 5
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| Subject: | FW: Dynon after the sale customer service |
I am again pleased to report on Dynon's superb after the sale service. I've
been flying my RV-10 for over two years. The last couple of IFR flights in
less than smooth air I noted some slippage of the pitch autopilot servo. A
while back Dynon came out with a servo for the RV-10 with more torque and
today they shipped one to me for exchange of my old servo. No charge.
It just does not get any better than that.
Carl
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: LiFePo4 Battery on the Firewall, Part II |
Ed,
Nice summary - thanks.
On your amp-hr calculations you will need to factor in the amp-hr capacity a
ssumption. Most amp-hr capacity specifications are at the 10 hour discharge
rate. In other words the best circumstances to get the highest number.
This is why we never get the crank time you think doing the simple math. A
s the discharge rate increases the amp-hr capacity dramatically decreases. S
o a 10 amp-hr battery will discharge 1 amp per hour for 10 hours. At 10 amp
s per hour discharge you can assume less than 30 minutes of capacity. At 10
0 amps per hour figure less than a minute of capacity.
So the best way to figure out what you can expect is to look at the batterie
s amp-hr capacity versus discharge rate. Once done then double the resultin
g battery capacity so you can have some margin for a less than fully charged
battery or one that's age has degraded from "new battery" spec.
Carl
> On Aug 7, 2014, at 2:26 PM, Ed Kranz <ed.kranz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> (Cross Posted from the "other" discussion)
> The feedback to my initial question has been great! Discussions like this a
re always a good thing!
>
> I've gathered some more data, based on some of the concerns raised in this
discussion. The main issues brought up are
> 1: Safety
> 2: Performance and capacity
> 3: Weight and Balance.
>
> Warning! Info dump to follow!
>
>
> 1: Safety
> I looked at a few scientific research papers on the safety of LiFePo4 batt
ery cells, and I was actually able to understand some of the words! After un
crossing my eyes, I actually searched something asked for in this discussion
; what do these cells do when they are abused. I found some interesting vide
os:
>
> [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IBapfB0Imo[/url] - Full Destructio
n of a charged cell
>
> [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiTqY4FY1yk[/url] - Penetration Tes
t 1
>
> [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZf2pKzBErk[/url] - Penetration Tes
t 2
>
> [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XymqQ-YlfJ0[/url] - Over Charge
>
>
> Also, here is some information from Wikipedia, which I know is NOT a infal
lible source:
> [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery#Safety[/u
rl]
>
> And Finally, from [url]http://www.mpoweruk.com/lithiumS.htm[/url] :
> Phosphate based technology possesses superior thermal and chemical stabili
ty which provides better safety characteristics than those of Lithium-ion te
chnology made with other cathode materials. Lithium phosphate cells are inco
mbustible in the event of mishandling during charge or discharge, they are m
ore stable under overcharge or short circuit conditions and they can withsta
nd high temperatures without decomposing. When abuse does occur, the phospha
te based cathode material will not burn and is not prone to thermal runaway.
Phosphate chemistry also offers a longer cycle life.
> Recent developments have produced a range of new environmentally friendly c
athode active materials based on Lithiated transition metal phosphates for L
ithium-ion applications.
>
>
> 2: Performance and Capacity
> Some of the questions brought up relating to this were the operating tempe
ratures that a LiFePo4 battery would encounter on the firewall of an RV10. I
had asked the EarthX rep this question at Osh, and his response was this: "
The operating range of the EarthX battery is wider than a comparable Odyssey
SLA battery". This looks to be mostly true, as the Odyssey manual lists the
range without a protective metal case to be only good to 113=C2=B0F, but 17
6=C2=B0F with an added shield. I'd imagine that you could add a similar, or e
ven the same shield to the EarthX to get even more temperature range.
>
> Also, a few of our fellow RV10 pilots are going to stick some temperature p
robes on the firewall in a few places to see what the requirements really ar
e. As it stands today, it doesn't sound like temperature is going to be an i
ssue.
> Odyssey Operating Temperature Range
> PC545, PC680, PC925, PC1200 and PC1700 without metal jacket: -40=C2=B0C (-
40=C2=B0F) to 45=C2=B0C (113=C2=B0F),
> PC545, PC680, PC925, PC1200 and PC1700 with metal jacket: -40=C2=B0C (-40=C2
=B0F) to 80=C2=B0C (176=C2=B0F),
>
> EarthX Operating Temperature Range
> Operating Temperature* -30=C2=B0C (-22=C2=B0F) to +60 =C2=B0C (140=C2=B0F)
> Storage Temperature -40=C2=B0C (-40=C2=B0F) to +60 =C2=B0C (140=C2=B0F)
>
>
> EarthX Discharge Versus Temperature
> We use a similar Cold Cranking Amp test standard (SAE test performed at 0=C2
=B0F, but 3
> second discharge time) as the lead acid battery manufacturers. As such, ou
r battery with a
> similar CCA rating as a lead acid battery should provide the same cranking
performance
> at 0=C2=B0F. But, below 0=C2=B0F an equivalent lead acid battery will outp
erform a lithium battery
> (=46rom [url]http://earthxmotorsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/ETX_M
anual_111017_G.pdf[/url])
>
> As far as capacity, the EarthX battery that I am considering has 12ah. Acc
ording to Skytec's specs, the 149-NL starter that I'm going to use has a dra
w of 125-185 amps. The 12ah battery will give me almost 4 minutes of solid c
ranking at the highest spec'd starter draw. As far as electrical emergency c
apacity, between whatever is left in the starter battery (say after 2 minute
s of engine crank) and a 6ah TCW backup battery, I'll have 12ah, which at 6 a
mps of draw (rough estimate) gives me two hours of endurance buss time. And t
hat is if both the primary and secondary alternators fail.
>
> 3: Weight and Balance
>
> Taking the suggestion of a few people in this discussion, we figured out a
n example weight and balance for a generic RV10, found the arms of the batte
ry tray and the firewall, and ran the numbers with a 26lb battery in the tai
l, and a 4lb battery on the firewall. Even with the battery on the firewall a
nd 26lbs removed from the tail, it's difficult to get the plane into a CG pa
st the forward limits. Pretty much any weight you carry in the plane pushes t
he CG back. So, worst case scenario would be a light pilot on low fuel. Even
with the stock battery in the stock location, you'll be forward of the CG l
imit. Adding ~40 lbs in the baggage area will keep the plane within CG in th
is light configuration, and have the benefit of being removable when carryin
g capacity is needed. If even a single 65lb person is in the back seat, this
extra weight isn't needed.
>
> The real problem is hitting the aft CG before you hit gross weight, becaus
e, as I stated before, pretty much every pound you add pushed the CG rearwar
d. Because of this, I personally would prefer to have a CG as far forward as
possible to give me more options.
>
> Basically, having the battery in the tail only moves the cg aft 1" in a si
ngle pilot no fuel scenario
> but allows you to carry 30lbs more baggage in a full gross scenario.
>
> The one thing these numbers don't include are the weight and CG changes fr
om removing the large #2 power cable from the tailcone to the firewall.
>
> Thehe WnB spreadsheet I've used for my numbers is here:
> [url]http://www.edandcolleen.com/files/RV10WeightBalance.xlsx[/url]
> Thanks to Justin Twilbeck for throwing this together for me. (It even has a
calculation for the loading needed to cause a tailstrike! Good stuff!)
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: NavWorx ADS-B |
Seems like FF is trying to limit compatibility to the Stratus units
exclusively.
On 8/7/2014 1:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
>
>
> Wifi support for FF would make life complete.
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: NavWorx ADS-B |
Unless we all start banging on them to open up to others!!!!
grumpy
do not archive
On Aug 7, 2014, at 9:05 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
> Seems like FF is trying to limit compatibility to the Stratus units exclusively.
>
> On 8/7/2014 1:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
>>
>>
>> Wifi support for FF would make life complete.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: NavWorx ADS-B |
Seems like? Basically they've always been that way and show no signs of
changing. That's why I advocate openness and buy wingX for in flight.
Admittedly, I buy Foreflight for preflight planning because it's awesome
for that, but for in flight I won't pay Foreflight for pro when wingX
offers a discount for 3 year subscription. That's my biggest problem
with garmin too. If they were into open standards for protocols I'd
have a much higher opinion of the company.
Tim
> On Aug 7, 2014, at 9:05 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
>
> Seems like FF is trying to limit compatibility to the Stratus units exclusively.
>
>> On 8/7/2014 1:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
>>
>>
>> Wifi support for FF would make life complete.
>>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: NavWorx ADS-B |
What variety of primer do you use on FF?? Does it work on Garmin stuff
as well?
;-))
On 8/7/2014 7:40 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> Seems like? Basically they've always been that way and show no signs
> of changing. That's why I advocate openness and buy wingX for in
> flight. Admittedly, I buy Foreflight for preflight planning because
> it's awesome for that, but for in flight I won't pay Foreflight for
> pro when wingX offers a discount for 3 year subscription. That's my
> biggest problem with garmin too. If they were into open standards for
> protocols I'd have a much higher opinion of the company.
> Tim
>
>> On Aug 7, 2014, at 9:05 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Seems like FF is trying to limit compatibility to the Stratus units
>> exclusively.
>>
>>> On 8/7/2014 1:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Wifi support for FF would make life complete.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: NavWorx ADS-B |
:) I guess I always use green.....without giving foreflight, wingx,
Jeppesen, and others lots of green, it's much harder to fly.
Tim
On 8/7/2014 9:46 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> What variety of primer do you use on FF?? Does it work on Garmin stuff
> as well?
> ;-))
> On 8/7/2014 7:40 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>>
>> Seems like? Basically they've always been that way and show no signs
>> of changing. That's why I advocate openness and buy wingX for in
>> flight. Admittedly, I buy Foreflight for preflight planning because
>> it's awesome for that, but for in flight I won't pay Foreflight for
>> pro when wingX offers a discount for 3 year subscription. That's my
>> biggest problem with garmin too. If they were into open standards for
>> protocols I'd have a much higher opinion of the company.
>> Tim
>>
>>> On Aug 7, 2014, at 9:05 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Seems like FF is trying to limit compatibility to the Stratus units
>>> exclusively.
>>>
>>>> On 8/7/2014 1:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wifi support for FF would make life complete.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: NavWorx ADS-B |
I've managed to fly across the country two times and never spent a dime with the
green tools.
I have free FltPlan go and Iflightplanner for iPad , that offers everything I need
for inflight, I used airnav FBO for airport fuel info and flyQ for airport
info. Granted its three tools to do the job of 1 but for the way I fly it seems
to offer far more than I ever had in the military over 20 years ago. I actually
needed to think where I was back in those days :-)
Not putting very nice tools like FF and wing X down, just commenting that there
are other options that work well for free.
Pascal
> On Aug 7, 2014, at 7:58 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
>
>
> :) I guess I always use green.....without giving foreflight, wingx,
> Jeppesen, and others lots of green, it's much harder to fly.
>
> Tim
>
>
>> On 8/7/2014 9:46 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>>
>> What variety of primer do you use on FF?? Does it work on Garmin stuff
>> as well?
>> ;-))
>>> On 8/7/2014 7:40 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
>>>
>>> Seems like? Basically they've always been that way and show no signs
>>> of changing. That's why I advocate openness and buy wingX for in
>>> flight. Admittedly, I buy Foreflight for preflight planning because
>>> it's awesome for that, but for in flight I won't pay Foreflight for
>>> pro when wingX offers a discount for 3 year subscription. That's my
>>> biggest problem with garmin too. If they were into open standards for
>>> protocols I'd have a much higher opinion of the company.
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>> On Aug 7, 2014, at 9:05 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Seems like FF is trying to limit compatibility to the Stratus units
>>>> exclusively.
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/7/2014 1:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Wifi support for FF would make life complete.
>
>
>
>
>
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