Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:10 AM - Re: RV10-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 02/11/15 (Rich Hansen)
2. 01:53 PM - Door seals - more questions than answers. (Dan Charrois)
3. 02:45 PM - Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. (Gary)
4. 02:51 PM - Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. (bill.peyton)
5. 02:58 PM - Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. (Geoff Combs)
6. 03:01 PM - Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. (dmaib@me.com)
7. 03:11 PM - Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. (Tim Olson)
8. 04:56 PM - Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. (Kevin Belue)
9. 05:26 PM - Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. (Bob Turner)
10. 05:44 PM - Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. (David Saylor)
11. 06:29 PM - Re: Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. (Kelly McMullen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RV10-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 02/11/15 |
Thx for your ideas & pic Myron. I like your scoop! Yours are some changes I may
want to make once this bird gets a good shake down. Thx for clocking suggestion
on muff. I had tried clocking & it helped but was still not good enough
in my application, so had to go with elbow.
Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:25:18 AM PST US
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: Hose Interference
> From: "woxofswa" <woxof@aol.com>
>
>
> I didn't have any interference. You might want to adjust he clocking of the
heat
> muff outlet to better line up between the engine mount gap.
>
> One thing I did on the left side was put a tiny scoop at the inlet to increase
> the airflow and decrease the temperature which was very hot. I run both my FWD
> and aft heat off that muff by using Van's Y splitter inside the tunnel. With
> the scoop I get plenty of nice warm air both fwd and aft.
> I took the muff off the right side and run scat from the back of the baffle straight
> to the valve which is open inside the tunnel allowing me to keep the tunnel
> nice and cool as necessary.
>
> (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/myronnelson/media/photo_zps2f0e91f5.jpg.html)
>
> --------
> Myron Nelson
> Mesa, AZ
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Door seals - more questions than answers. |
Hi everyone. I'm at the stage of choosing door seals and have somewhat stalled
in the decision-making process, so I'm reaching out to those who've been there,
in trying to make the best-informed decision. I've scoured the RV-10 Matronics
email list for the past several years to see what people are doing, but still
have what seems to be more questions than answers.
I know that replacing Van's seals is a popular option. I guess the first thing
to know when choosing an alternative is understanding exactly what we're trying
to fix. My biggest question is probably - what is the biggest problem with
them? I've read that the stock seals just don't "seal" well enough. Is this
because of where the seal fits (into the channel)? Or due to the physical nature
of the rubber seal? I notice that it quite easily "kinks", which would leave
air gaps if this happens when mounted on the door. Also, the coil I have
from Vans has lots of locations where the two opposite edges in the bulb are
stuck together internally (kinks that have sat that way for years). They can
probably be teased apart, but obviously, if this happens when it is on the door,
the sealing factor is gone. Alternately, if the problems with Van's seal are
due to the location of the seal, obviously changing to a seal that attaches
differently makes sense. If due to kinking, perhaps a different composition
of seal?
A popular option here seems to be McMaster-Carr's part number 1120A313 (also apparently
the same as 1120A31), or 1120A411 - edge-grip seals with a rubber bulb.
This gets installed along the door frame instead of the door, and requires
the modification that the channel (gutter) along the door frame is cut back such
that the inner curve of the channel is removed so that the mounting edge is
effectively co-planar with the door. I know this is a popular option, but as
I say, I want to make an informed decision. Though I'm sure it makes a finished
look, I am a bit concerned that removing the inner curve of the channel reduces
the structural integrity of the cabin top somewhat (it effectively removes
one of the flanges if the channel were to be considered an I-beam). I also
kind of like the existing gutter concept to the door frame minimizing the chance
of water getting inside overhead. Also, considering that this concept puts
the seal on the door frame, I wonder if it would be more easily damaged and/or
dislodged by people getting in and out. On the other hand, car door seals
tend to be this way, so maybe it's not a big deal. One thing I don't understand
- those seals have a rubber bulb... in which case, how do they seal better
than Van's which also have a similar bulb, or is it primarily the mounting difference
that improves things?
Another option that's been popular is that which was sold by rvtraining.com / Aviation
Tech Products. This was a foam-based seal that went along the outer edge
(lip) of the door. Since it didn't require modifications to the structural
integrity of the door frame, I thought this was potentially appealing (plus,
it feels as though a foam-based seal would be more sound-insulating than a rubber
bulb). But I say "was" on purpose - I got in touch with them a few days
ago, and as of December 2014, they closed Aviation Tech Products, don't have any
seals left and don't know where else they may be obtained. So this exact option
is out, unless someone has done something similar. On the other hand, I
never quite understood how the seal would work effectively along the areas of
the door where there was only a very small lip available, like along the bottom.
Another option would be seal attached to the door that compressed against the existing
flange of the door frame that curves back towards the door (the part cut
off when using the aforementioned 1120A411 edge-grip seal). This could be
something like McMaster part 1142A28, or even a simple adhesive-backed strip like
93745K23.
If the problem with Van's seal is due to its composition, there are McMaster alternatives
that have a similar form factor (and hence mounting) - like a purely
foam version such as 93085K91, or even an intriguing "hybrid" rubber seal with
a foam core (1141A4) that may combine the ruggedness of a rubber outer section
like Van's with a foam core inside that "may" help prevent kinking and opposite
sides of the bulb bonding together, if that in fact is the problem with
Van's in the first place. To me this seems like the most straightforward improvement
with minimal changes to what Van's intended, but I don't know if that
would be "fixing" a problem with the Van's seals that may not be the big issue
in the first place.
Of course, I could just go and do what the majority are doing with regards to alternate
seals if there is a majority, but I'm the sort who wants to make an informed
a decision as possible. Any feedback anyone could give on the concept
would be greatly appreciated - particularly from those who have gone down this
decision tree in the past, I'd be very interested in hearing why you decided
on using what you have. Then, if I decide to go with some variation of a McMaster
seal, I have to tackle the next hurdle and see if I can get them to ship
to Canada, which I've heard has been problematic in the past. But one problem
at a time :-)
Thanks! Dan
---
Dan Charrois
President, Syzygy Research & Technology
Phone: 780-961-2213
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. |
I know that staying with the Vans seals is not the popular choice but I have been
quite happy with them and I have a good seal all around
I had the McMaster seals on my Glasair and they are not without their own problems.
They shrink over time and leave a 1" gap at the joint. Additionally they
are not water tight. The water seeps in around the clip. To make it water tight
you must install the clip with silicone caulk. Plus all the grinding and building
up on the lip.
So, each has issues so pick your poison.
> On Feb 12, 2015, at 4:50 PM, Dan Charrois <dan@syz.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi everyone. I'm at the stage of choosing door seals and have somewhat stalled
in the decision-making process, so I'm reaching out to those who've been there,
in trying to make the best-informed decision. I've scoured the RV-10 Matronics
email list for the past several years to see what people are doing, but
still have what seems to be more questions than answers.
>
> I know that replacing Van's seals is a popular option. I guess the first thing
to know when choosing an alternative is understanding exactly what we're trying
to fix. My biggest question is probably - what is the biggest problem with
them? I've read that the stock seals just don't "seal" well enough. Is this
because of where the seal fits (into the channel)? Or due to the physical
nature of the rubber seal? I notice that it quite easily "kinks", which would
leave air gaps if this happens when mounted on the door. Also, the coil I have
from Vans has lots of locations where the two opposite edges in the bulb are
stuck together internally (kinks that have sat that way for years). They can
probably be teased apart, but obviously, if this happens when it is on the door,
the sealing factor is gone. Alternately, if the problems with Van's seal
are due to the location of the seal, obviously changing to a seal that attaches
differently makes sense. If due to kinking, perhap!
> s a different composition of seal?
>
> A popular option here seems to be McMaster-Carr's part number 1120A313 (also
apparently the same as 1120A31), or 1120A411 - edge-grip seals with a rubber bulb.
This gets installed along the door frame instead of the door, and requires
the modification that the channel (gutter) along the door frame is cut back
such that the inner curve of the channel is removed so that the mounting edge
is effectively co-planar with the door. I know this is a popular option, but
as I say, I want to make an informed decision. Though I'm sure it makes a finished
look, I am a bit concerned that removing the inner curve of the channel
reduces the structural integrity of the cabin top somewhat (it effectively removes
one of the flanges if the channel were to be considered an I-beam). I also
kind of like the existing gutter concept to the door frame minimizing the
chance of water getting inside overhead. Also, considering that this concept
puts the seal on the door frame, I wonder if it would !
> be more easily damaged and/or dislodged by people getting in and out. On the
other hand, car door seals tend to be this way, so maybe it's not a big deal.
One thing I don't understand - those seals have a rubber bulb... in which case,
how do they seal better than Van's which also have a similar bulb, or is it
primarily the mounting difference that improves things?
>
> Another option that's been popular is that which was sold by rvtraining.com /
Aviation Tech Products. This was a foam-based seal that went along the outer
edge (lip) of the door. Since it didn't require modifications to the structural
integrity of the door frame, I thought this was potentially appealing (plus,
it feels as though a foam-based seal would be more sound-insulating than a
rubber bulb). But I say "was" on purpose - I got in touch with them a few days
ago, and as of December 2014, they closed Aviation Tech Products, don't have
any seals left and don't know where else they may be obtained. So this exact
option is out, unless someone has done something similar. On the other hand,
I never quite understood how the seal would work effectively along the areas
of the door where there was only a very small lip available, like along the bottom.
>
> Another option would be seal attached to the door that compressed against the
existing flange of the door frame that curves back towards the door (the part
cut off when using the aforementioned 1120A411 edge-grip seal). This could be
something like McMaster part 1142A28, or even a simple adhesive-backed strip
like 93745K23.
>
> If the problem with Van's seal is due to its composition, there are McMaster
alternatives that have a similar form factor (and hence mounting) - like a purely
foam version such as 93085K91, or even an intriguing "hybrid" rubber seal
with a foam core (1141A4) that may combine the ruggedness of a rubber outer section
like Van's with a foam core inside that "may" help prevent kinking and opposite
sides of the bulb bonding together, if that in fact is the problem with
Van's in the first place. To me this seems like the most straightforward improvement
with minimal changes to what Van's intended, but I don't know if that
would be "fixing" a problem with the Van's seals that may not be the big issue
in the first place.
>
> Of course, I could just go and do what the majority are doing with regards to
alternate seals if there is a majority, but I'm the sort who wants to make an
informed a decision as possible. Any feedback anyone could give on the concept
would be greatly appreciated - particularly from those who have gone down this
decision tree in the past, I'd be very interested in hearing why you decided
on using what you have. Then, if I decide to go with some variation of a McMaster
seal, I have to tackle the next hurdle and see if I can get them to ship
to Canada, which I've heard has been problematic in the past. But one problem
at a time :-)
>
> Thanks! Dan
> ---
> Dan Charrois
> President, Syzygy Research & Technology
> Phone: 780-961-2213
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. |
The Vans stock seals don't really work very well, and quite honestly, look terribly
cheap, especially on a $175,000 aircraft. The McMaster edge grip bulb seals
look very professional, and do their job. Unfortunately they also take quite
a bit of work to install. The door frame must be modified and reinforced
at the front and rear frame, and the hinge recesses must be covered to create
a seal.
Having said that, I used the McMaster seals and would do it again. They look soooo
much better than the stock seal.
The other modification that is a must, is the Plane Around door security latch.
I also just finished installing the new Aerosport outer door latches.
--------
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438276#438276
Message 5
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| Subject: | Door seals - more questions than answers. |
Dan
I would not use anything but the McMaster Carr door seal option. I would
also use the 1/4" edge and build all your edges up to 1/4" with
E glass. This will make the channel a little stronger again from what you
removed for the McMaster seals. My doors seal airtight and water tight. This
option takes a little more time but the results are well worth the effort.
The Vans seals look like an afterthought.
Also I have never had one come off after 5 years. I fly a lot of people and
young eagles.
FWIW
Geoff Combs
Aerosport
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Charrois
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 4:50 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Door seals - more questions than answers.
Hi everyone. I'm at the stage of choosing door seals and have somewhat
stalled in the decision-making process, so I'm reaching out to those who've
been there, in trying to make the best-informed decision. I've scoured the
RV-10 Matronics email list for the past several years to see what people are
doing, but still have what seems to be more questions than answers.
I know that replacing Van's seals is a popular option. I guess the first
thing to know when choosing an alternative is understanding exactly what
we're trying to fix. My biggest question is probably - what is the biggest
problem with them? I've read that the stock seals just don't "seal" well
enough. Is this because of where the seal fits (into the channel)? Or due
to the physical nature of the rubber seal? I notice that it quite easily
"kinks", which would leave air gaps if this happens when mounted on the
door. Also, the coil I have from Vans has lots of locations where the two
opposite edges in the bulb are stuck together internally (kinks that have
sat that way for years). They can probably be teased apart, but obviously,
if this happens when it is on the door, the sealing factor is gone.
Alternately, if the problems with Van's seal are due to the location of the
seal, obviously changing to a seal that attaches differently makes sense.
If due to kinking, perhap!
s a different composition of seal?
A popular option here seems to be McMaster-Carr's part number 1120A313 (also
apparently the same as 1120A31), or 1120A411 - edge-grip seals with a rubber
bulb. This gets installed along the door frame instead of the door, and
requires the modification that the channel (gutter) along the door frame is
cut back such that the inner curve of the channel is removed so that the
mounting edge is effectively co-planar with the door. I know this is a
popular option, but as I say, I want to make an informed decision. Though
I'm sure it makes a finished look, I am a bit concerned that removing the
inner curve of the channel reduces the structural integrity of the cabin top
somewhat (it effectively removes one of the flanges if the channel were to
be considered an I-beam). I also kind of like the existing gutter concept
to the door frame minimizing the chance of water getting inside overhead.
Also, considering that this concept puts the seal on the door frame, I
wonder if it would !
be more easily damaged and/or dislodged by people getting in and out. On
the other hand, car door seals tend to be this way, so maybe it's not a big
deal. One thing I don't understand - those seals have a rubber bulb... in
which case, how do they seal better than Van's which also have a similar
bulb, or is it primarily the mounting difference that improves things?
Another option that's been popular is that which was sold by rvtraining.com
/ Aviation Tech Products. This was a foam-based seal that went along the
outer edge (lip) of the door. Since it didn't require modifications to the
structural integrity of the door frame, I thought this was potentially
appealing (plus, it feels as though a foam-based seal would be more
sound-insulating than a rubber bulb). But I say "was" on purpose - I got in
touch with them a few days ago, and as of December 2014, they closed
Aviation Tech Products, don't have any seals left and don't know where else
they may be obtained. So this exact option is out, unless someone has done
something similar. On the other hand, I never quite understood how the seal
would work effectively along the areas of the door where there was only a
very small lip available, like along the bottom.
Another option would be seal attached to the door that compressed against
the existing flange of the door frame that curves back towards the door (the
part cut off when using the aforementioned 1120A411 edge-grip seal). This
could be something like McMaster part 1142A28, or even a simple
adhesive-backed strip like 93745K23.
If the problem with Van's seal is due to its composition, there are McMaster
alternatives that have a similar form factor (and hence mounting) - like a
purely foam version such as 93085K91, or even an intriguing "hybrid" rubber
seal with a foam core (1141A4) that may combine the ruggedness of a rubber
outer section like Van's with a foam core inside that "may" help prevent
kinking and opposite sides of the bulb bonding together, if that in fact is
the problem with Van's in the first place. To me this seems like the most
straightforward improvement with minimal changes to what Van's intended, but
I don't know if that would be "fixing" a problem with the Van's seals that
may not be the big issue in the first place.
Of course, I could just go and do what the majority are doing with regards
to alternate seals if there is a majority, but I'm the sort who wants to
make an informed a decision as possible. Any feedback anyone could give on
the concept would be greatly appreciated - particularly from those who have
gone down this decision tree in the past, I'd be very interested in hearing
why you decided on using what you have. Then, if I decide to go with some
variation of a McMaster seal, I have to tackle the next hurdle and see if I
can get them to ship to Canada, which I've heard has been problematic in the
past. But one problem at a time :-)
Thanks! Dan
---
Dan Charrois
President, Syzygy Research & Technology
Phone: 780-961-2213
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. |
I installed my own on the door frame. I don't even remember where I got them. It
took LOTS of work and rework to get them right. I did try the foam rubber from
Aviation Tech Products and they did not work well at all. I agree with your
concerns about grinding down the door frame to install the McMaster-Carr seals.
However, they definitely look great. My biggest complaint with the Van's product
is the appearance. Bill P. is right. They look cheap! However, knowing what
I know now, I would install the Van's seals because they work fine, even if
they don't look so good.
--------
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438279#438279
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. |
I too have only had the standard Van's seals for almost 1100 hours now.
I think all of that kinking thing is a non-issue. It'll straighten out
and seal and
work well. I actually think that it may be the quietest and most
airtight way to
go. But if there is a "problem" with the original seals, it's that the door
can be hard to close just because the seal is about as thick as you
could put
in that gap. The McMaster ones I've seen make the door have no
resistance to
closing and the thing just latches.
I don't have any firsthand experience with anything but mine, and I know
others like the McMaster, so nothing against going either way. I do think
mine seal very tightly...I get no air or noise. I did get some
initially up by
the front door pins, but then got it sealed up. That seal fills the gap
completely and doesn't allow much in the way of air to leak.
I'm not sure what I'd do if I built another one. I'm inclined to say
I'd stick
with what I have, since it's been good. But I'd probably go ride with some
friends who have the other and see if theirs leaks at all. If so, I'd
definitely
go with mine, but if not, I'd consider either. I do like the looks of the
doors better with the seal on the door side though. I'd rather not have the
black foam around the door hole.
Honestly, if you do it right, I don't think you'll go wrong either way.
Like you, I'd think that whatever you can do to be non-intrusive into the
structure, would be the best approach, so if you go the other way, I'd
cut the seal to fit the door channel, not the channel to fit the seal.
Tim
On 2/12/2015 4:40 PM, Gary wrote:
>
> I know that staying with the Vans seals is not the popular choice but I have
been quite happy with them and I have a good seal all around
>
> I had the McMaster seals on my Glasair and they are not without their own problems.
They shrink over time and leave a 1" gap at the joint. Additionally they
are not water tight. The water seeps in around the clip. To make it water tight
you must install the clip with silicone caulk. Plus all the grinding and building
up on the lip.
>
> So, each has issues so pick your poison.
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. |
I installed Van's seals and absolutely could not close the door. I pushed from
the outside but it would not completely close. It all depends on how deep you
set the door; since I wanted mine to be flush, I suppose it sets deeper than Van's.
On Van's factory plane it works great, but not on mine. So, I took Van's
seals off and installed the McMaster- Carr seal. It was a lot of work, but it
completely seals and the door closes just right. If I were building another plane,
that's what I'd use without another thought.....
Kevin Belue
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 12, 2015, at 3:50 PM, Dan Charrois <dan@syz.com> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone. I'm at the stage of choosing door seals and have somewhat stalled
in the decision-making process, so I'm reaching out to those who've been there,
in trying to make the best-informed decision. I've scoured the RV-10 Matronics
email list for the past several years to see what people are doing, but
still have what seems to be more questions than answers.
>
> I know that replacing Van's seals is a popular option. I guess the first thing
to know when choosing an alternative is understanding exactly what we're trying
to fix. My biggest question is probably - what is the biggest problem with
them? I've read that the stock seals just don't "seal" well enough. Is this
because of where the seal fits (into the channel)? Or due to the physical
nature of the rubber seal? I notice that it quite easily "kinks", which would
leave air gaps if this happens when mounted on the door. Also, the coil I have
from Vans has lots of locations where the two opposite edges in the bulb are
stuck together internally (kinks that have sat that way for years). They can
probably be teased apart, but obviously, if this happens when it is on the door,
the sealing factor is gone. Alternately, if the problems with Van's seal
are due to the location of the seal, obviously changing to a seal that attaches
differently makes sense. If due to kinking, perhap!
> s a different composition of seal?
>
> A popular option here seems to be McMaster-Carr's part number 1120A313 (also
apparently the same as 1120A31), or 1120A411 - edge-grip seals with a rubber bulb.
This gets installed along the door frame instead of the door, and requires
the modification that the channel (gutter) along the door frame is cut back
such that the inner curve of the channel is removed so that the mounting edge
is effectively co-planar with the door. I know this is a popular option, but
as I say, I want to make an informed decision. Though I'm sure it makes a finished
look, I am a bit concerned that removing the inner curve of the channel
reduces the structural integrity of the cabin top somewhat (it effectively removes
one of the flanges if the channel were to be considered an I-beam). I also
kind of like the existing gutter concept to the door frame minimizing the
chance of water getting inside overhead. Also, considering that this concept
puts the seal on the door frame, I wonder if it would !
> be more easily damaged and/or dislodged by people getting in and out. On the
other hand, car door seals tend to be this way, so maybe it's not a big deal.
One thing I don't understand - those seals have a rubber bulb... in which case,
how do they seal better than Van's which also have a similar bulb, or is it
primarily the mounting difference that improves things?
>
> Another option that's been popular is that which was sold by rvtraining.com /
Aviation Tech Products. This was a foam-based seal that went along the outer
edge (lip) of the door. Since it didn't require modifications to the structural
integrity of the door frame, I thought this was potentially appealing (plus,
it feels as though a foam-based seal would be more sound-insulating than a
rubber bulb). But I say "was" on purpose - I got in touch with them a few days
ago, and as of December 2014, they closed Aviation Tech Products, don't have
any seals left and don't know where else they may be obtained. So this exact
option is out, unless someone has done something similar. On the other hand,
I never quite understood how the seal would work effectively along the areas
of the door where there was only a very small lip available, like along the bottom.
>
> Another option would be seal attached to the door that compressed against the
existing flange of the door frame that curves back towards the door (the part
cut off when using the aforementioned 1120A411 edge-grip seal). This could be
something like McMaster part 1142A28, or even a simple adhesive-backed strip
like 93745K23.
>
> If the problem with Van's seal is due to its composition, there are McMaster
alternatives that have a similar form factor (and hence mounting) - like a purely
foam version such as 93085K91, or even an intriguing "hybrid" rubber seal
with a foam core (1141A4) that may combine the ruggedness of a rubber outer section
like Van's with a foam core inside that "may" help prevent kinking and opposite
sides of the bulb bonding together, if that in fact is the problem with
Van's in the first place. To me this seems like the most straightforward improvement
with minimal changes to what Van's intended, but I don't know if that
would be "fixing" a problem with the Van's seals that may not be the big issue
in the first place.
>
> Of course, I could just go and do what the majority are doing with regards to
alternate seals if there is a majority, but I'm the sort who wants to make an
informed a decision as possible. Any feedback anyone could give on the concept
would be greatly appreciated - particularly from those who have gone down this
decision tree in the past, I'd be very interested in hearing why you decided
on using what you have. Then, if I decide to go with some variation of a McMaster
seal, I have to tackle the next hurdle and see if I can get them to ship
to Canada, which I've heard has been problematic in the past. But one problem
at a time :-)
>
> Thanks! Dan
> ---
> Dan Charrois
> President, Syzygy Research & Technology
> Phone: 780-961-2213
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. |
Put me into the "Vans original" camp.
Yes, they look cheap.
Yes, after endless sanding and fitting it is dis-heartening to find you have to
sand and fit more after the seals are on.
My doors are a little tight to close, so extra attention is needed to make absolutely
sure the aft pin is engaged.
But I hear and feel no air leaks, no water leaks, I'm happy.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438286#438286
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. |
I have the simple foam backed strips. Pictures here:
http://tinyurl.com/Post-regarding-door-seals
My doors seal water and air tight. The best part is how the door
closes--no effort at all, just push the handle down.
I've replaced the seals once in 7 years. It takes an hour or so and cost
was less than $20.
Don't be dismayed if the door seems hard to close on the first try. Let it
sit for a few hours and the foam takes as set at zero clearance. Then the
doors open and close easily.
--Dave
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 1:50 PM, Dan Charrois <dan@syz.com> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone. I'm at the stage of choosing door seals and have somewhat
> stalled in the decision-making process, so I'm reaching out to those who've
> been there, in trying to make the best-informed decision. I've scoured the
> RV-10 Matronics email list for the past several years to see what people
> are doing, but still have what seems to be more questions than answers.
>
> I know that replacing Van's seals is a popular option. I guess the first
> thing to know when choosing an alternative is understanding exactly what
> we're trying to fix. My biggest question is probably - what is the biggest
> problem with them? I've read that the stock seals just don't "seal" well
> enough. Is this because of where the seal fits (into the channel)? Or due
> to the physical nature of the rubber seal? I notice that it quite easily
> "kinks", which would leave air gaps if this happens when mounted on the
> door. Also, the coil I have from Vans has lots of locations where the two
> opposite edges in the bulb are stuck together internally (kinks that have
> sat that way for years). They can probably be teased apart, but obviously,
> if this happens when it is on the door, the sealing factor is gone.
> Alternately, if the problems with Van's seal are due to the location of the
> seal, obviously changing to a seal that attaches differently makes sense.
> If due to kinking, perhap!
> s a different composition of seal?
>
> A popular option here seems to be McMaster-Carr's part number 1120A313
> (also apparently the same as 1120A31), or 1120A411 - edge-grip seals with a
> rubber bulb. This gets installed along the door frame instead of the door,
> and requires the modification that the channel (gutter) along the door
> frame is cut back such that the inner curve of the channel is removed so
> that the mounting edge is effectively co-planar with the door. I know this
> is a popular option, but as I say, I want to make an informed decision.
> Though I'm sure it makes a finished look, I am a bit concerned that
> removing the inner curve of the channel reduces the structural integrity of
> the cabin top somewhat (it effectively removes one of the flanges if the
> channel were to be considered an I-beam). I also kind of like the existing
> gutter concept to the door frame minimizing the chance of water getting
> inside overhead. Also, considering that this concept puts the seal on the
> door frame, I wonder if it would !
> be more easily damaged and/or dislodged by people getting in and out. On
> the other hand, car door seals tend to be this way, so maybe it's not a big
> deal. One thing I don't understand - those seals have a rubber bulb... in
> which case, how do they seal better than Van's which also have a similar
> bulb, or is it primarily the mounting difference that improves things?
>
> Another option that's been popular is that which was sold by
> rvtraining.com / Aviation Tech Products. This was a foam-based seal that
> went along the outer edge (lip) of the door. Since it didn't require
> modifications to the structural integrity of the door frame, I thought this
> was potentially appealing (plus, it feels as though a foam-based seal would
> be more sound-insulating than a rubber bulb). But I say "was" on purpose -
> I got in touch with them a few days ago, and as of December 2014, they
> closed Aviation Tech Products, don't have any seals left and don't know
> where else they may be obtained. So this exact option is out, unless
> someone has done something similar. On the other hand, I never quite
> understood how the seal would work effectively along the areas of the door
> where there was only a very small lip available, like along the bottom.
>
> Another option would be seal attached to the door that compressed against
> the existing flange of the door frame that curves back towards the door
> (the part cut off when using the aforementioned 1120A411 edge-grip seal).
> This could be something like McMaster part 1142A28, or even a simple
> adhesive-backed strip like 93745K23.
>
> If the problem with Van's seal is due to its composition, there are
> McMaster alternatives that have a similar form factor (and hence mounting)
> - like a purely foam version such as 93085K91, or even an intriguing
> "hybrid" rubber seal with a foam core (1141A4) that may combine the
> ruggedness of a rubber outer section like Van's with a foam core inside
> that "may" help prevent kinking and opposite sides of the bulb bonding
> together, if that in fact is the problem with Van's in the first place. To
> me this seems like the most straightforward improvement with minimal
> changes to what Van's intended, but I don't know if that would be "fixing"
> a problem with the Van's seals that may not be the big issue in the first
> place.
>
> Of course, I could just go and do what the majority are doing with regards
> to alternate seals if there is a majority, but I'm the sort who wants to
> make an informed a decision as possible. Any feedback anyone could give on
> the concept would be greatly appreciated - particularly from those who have
> gone down this decision tree in the past, I'd be very interested in hearing
> why you decided on using what you have. Then, if I decide to go with some
> variation of a McMaster seal, I have to tackle the next hurdle and see if I
> can get them to ship to Canada, which I've heard has been problematic in
> the past. But one problem at a time :-)
>
> Thanks! Dan
> ---
> Dan Charrois
> President, Syzygy Research & Technology
> Phone: 780-961-2213
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Door seals - more questions than answers. |
Another option that I haven't heard mentioned. www.aircraftdoorseals.com
Similar to what was previously offered by rvtraining.com, however, uses a
proprietary foam that compresses as much as needed and mostly stays
compressed after first 24 hours. I have their product on my Mooney, and it
works quite well. I believe they will sell you whatever length you need.
Not cheap. On certified plane kit is typically $130 for door seal. Don't
know if they discount for experimental.
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 6:23 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu> wrote:
>
> Put me into the "Vans original" camp.
> Yes, they look cheap.
> Yes, after endless sanding and fitting it is dis-heartening to find you
> have to sand and fit more after the seals are on.
> My doors are a little tight to close, so extra attention is needed to make
> absolutely sure the aft pin is engaged.
> But I hear and feel no air leaks, no water leaks, I'm happy.
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438286#438286
>
>
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