---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 04/10/15: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:12 AM - Re: Control stick bending (Patrick Pulis) 2. 05:11 AM - Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (Linn Walters) 3. 05:14 AM - Re: Control stick bending (Linn Walters) 4. 06:05 AM - Re: Control stick bending (bill.peyton) 5. 08:22 AM - Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (Tim Olson) 6. 09:28 AM - Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (Danny Riggs) 7. 09:36 AM - Re: NTSB - Probable Cause () 8. 09:41 AM - Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (Pascal) 9. 09:43 AM - Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (Pascal) 10. 09:49 AM - Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (Danny Riggs) 11. 09:57 AM - Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (Danny Riggs) 12. 12:34 PM - Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (Tim Olson) 13. 02:04 PM - Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (Bob Turner) 14. 02:41 PM - Re: Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (Linn Walters) 15. 03:21 PM - Re: Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (Phillip Perry) 16. 03:32 PM - Shoulder Harnesses (Phillip Perry) 17. 06:25 PM - Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (Miller John) 18. 09:53 PM - Re: Shoulder Harnesses (David Saylor) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:12:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Control stick bending From: Patrick Pulis Guys as an ex-plumber, the sand idea gives the perfect support to prevent kinking. Use dry send and pack well Warm regards Patrick > On 10 Apr 2015, at 03:50, Tomhanaway wrote: > > > When I did my 10, I got a pipe bender from harbor freight. Packed the tube with sand to prevent any kinks. > Worked fine > > Tom h > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Apr 9, 2015, at 12:53 PM, Rob Kermanj wrote: >> >> >> I shortened my stick to compensate for the hight of the grip and it works good. >> >> Do not archive. >> >> >>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 11:53 AM, Pascal wrote: >>> >>> >>> I did mine freehand with a rubber mallet. I wouldnt bother doing it again, there is no way you should ever need to push the stick so far forward that you'll hit the panel. Vans demo plane uses the stick as sent, as a reference. I would consider bending the stick a slight side bend to accommodate the angle you hold the stick. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Kelly McMullen >>> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 8:26 AM >>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: RV10-List: Control stick bending >>> >>> >>> I know some have said they have bent their sticks for panel clearance. I >>> don't recall seeing any specifics, other than ua hydraulic press. >>> How much did you need to bend? What did you do to protect the shape of >>> the tubing? >>> Any comments on technique, how hard to bend, how to prevent weakening >>> the tubing would be appreciated. >>> I have Tosten grips and Aerosport carbon fiber panel, along with cutting >>> stick as much as possible and still be able to secure grips. >>> I currently only have 20 degrees of nose down travel when stick grips >>> hit panel. >>> Kelly >>> Been finishing forever. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:18 AM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: NTSB - Probable Cause This whole story really saddens me. In the 34 years I've been around experimentals I've seen a lot of 'stupid builder tricks' done by intelligent, knowledgeable builders. I rank them up with running out of fuel and VFR pilots flying into IFR conditions. How does it happen? What thought process took them down the path to the ultimate failure??? I've seen experimentals I wouldn't even sit in, much less fly in. Glaring construction practices ..... not hidden like this case ..... where a lot of 'counseling' was ignored, resulting in a fatal accident. Many were personal friends. In this case the builder was informed of a prior, improper use of RTV, but it didn't matter. It's sad, but our hobby is shot through with 'experts' that also think 'their way is a better way', and the newbie builder is cannon fodder for their misguided information. I'm guilty of failing to 'just build it' ..... I don't like the way some things are done ..... but the mods are done with all the information found in AC 43-13. I really feel that no builder should be given an airworthiness certificate unless he/she produces their own copy. It would have saved a fair amount of lives. Over the years I've tried to learn what went wrong in an accident scenario, not just the cause, but where/how the failure came to be. This one was obvious, many others are sinister and lie it wait for years. Phil is spot on .... we are our brothers keeper ...... As a point of perspective, we read/hear/know of an accident where a highly skilled (famous, prolific builder, pilot, etc.) is no longer with us because of an aviation accident ..... if they go west prematurely, what chance do I have to grow old and die of natural causes??? All I can do is try to learn from their demise and become more knowledgeable, and hopefully make the proper decisions down the road. If you deviate from the norm (it's that mod thingy again) please get as many opinions and sets of eyes as you can, just in case there's a flaw in your thought process. What you learn may not be entirely correct, but the discussion adds immeasurably to your analysis. I now relinquish the soapbox. Linn On 4/10/2015 12:50 AM, Phillip Perry wrote: > Some of you might have seen this already, but Doug Nebert's probable > cause was published today. This was the accident in Oregon last May. > (2 Fatal - 1 Serious) > > * The probable cause document > > is a humbling read... > * Every document in the entire docket > > is worth the read... > * Specifically the photos in this document > > are full of emotion. Anger, Sadness, Disbelief, Confusion. > > In case the links do not work, the case ID is WPR14FA218 so you can > look it up yourself. > > I will give you the nutshell, but you need to go read the documents. > RTV was used to seal NPT fittings on a (recently installed) fuel flow > transducer. A ~0.25" chuckof RTV came loose and flowed downstream > into the metered nozzle of the transducer. The metered hole was > ~0.115" in diameter and the RTV plugged the hole and starved the > engine of fuel. To make matters worse, a stall (and likely the start > of a spin) occurred during the forced landing. > > This is worth a read. There were other indications of an aircraft > with questionable maintenance, but the event that brought down this > airplane was 100% preventable. The real disappointing part is that > the issue was pointed out by a friend but ignored. > > Even if we don't have RTV on our fuel lines (I hope we don't - Same > thing for Teflon Tape), there is a lesson in here for all of us. It > doesn't do us any good to share information and concerns with each > other if we aren't going to take a moment to stop in our tracks and > seriously listen to them. Ears open, mouth closed, stop, and think. > I'm as guilty as the next person, but this is a case where we can all > reset ourselves and improve our fleets record. > > Phil > > > * > > > * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:59 AM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Control stick bending Sugar works better for me in most instances. Much easier to clean out with some water and if there is any residue left it isn't as abrasive as sand. Linn On 4/10/2015 3:06 AM, Patrick Pulis wrote: > > Guys as an ex-plumber, the sand idea gives the perfect support to prevent kinking. Use dry send and pack well > > Warm regards > > Patrick > >> On 10 Apr 2015, at 03:50, Tomhanaway wrote: >> >> >> When I did my 10, I got a pipe bender from harbor freight. Packed the tube with sand to prevent any kinks. >> Worked fine >> >> Tom h >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 12:53 PM, Rob Kermanj wrote: >>> >>> >>> I shortened my stick to compensate for the hight of the grip and it works good. >>> >>> Do not archive. >>> >>> >>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 11:53 AM, Pascal wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> I did mine freehand with a rubber mallet. I wouldnt bother doing it again, there is no way you should ever need to push the stick so far forward that you'll hit the panel. Vans demo plane uses the stick as sent, as a reference. I would consider bending the stick a slight side bend to accommodate the angle you hold the stick. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kelly McMullen >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 8:26 AM >>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com >>>> Subject: RV10-List: Control stick bending >>>> >>>> >>>> I know some have said they have bent their sticks for panel clearance. I >>>> don't recall seeing any specifics, other than ua hydraulic press. >>>> How much did you need to bend? What did you do to protect the shape of >>>> the tubing? >>>> Any comments on technique, how hard to bend, how to prevent weakening >>>> the tubing would be appreciated. >>>> I have Tosten grips and Aerosport carbon fiber panel, along with cutting >>>> stick as much as possible and still be able to secure grips. >>>> I currently only have 20 degrees of nose down travel when stick grips >>>> hit panel. >>>> Kelly >>>> Been finishing forever. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:44 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Control stick bending From: "bill.peyton" I have the Aerosport Panel and did not have to bend the stick. What I did was to cut the lower end as short as possible to leave enough straight left to slide into and fully engage into the lower attachment joint. I trimmed the top as short as possible so the holding when the grip my arm would be able to relax on my leg. -------- Bill WA0SYV Aviation Partners, LLC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440562#440562 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/stick_2596_286.jpg ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:22:38 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: NTSB - Probable Cause Phil, Thanks for posting. That's just sickening to read. Regarding Linn's post, I truly think that the people who most often do the very questionable things are also the ones that will never listen to the advice, so it's a hopeless plea, sadly. I think back to how many times I had to get on Dan Lloyd and he never listened once. This particular accident/pilot was far less lax than Dan was, but still, there are just far too many things in the report to allow me to just think "well, at least he knew what he was doing". It was a shocking read, and horrifying when you consider the discussion about the crash and the child, and see the numerous pictures of the plane. There isn't anything left of the front end, and you can't blame the angle of impact on anything but poor piloting, even if you excuse the RTV use. This accident didn't have to end this way. Some things I noted... The fuel handle was installed reverse indicating. Why? Why can't a pilot understand that things like that are critical, and you need to install them so that ANYONE can understand them? Of course, the RTV on the NPT threads... So how many times do we have to discuss this? No teflon tape, no RTV. Fuel lube I guess is the common one, which is good. If you use a paste of any type, or even in the case of anti-seize on spark plugs, you don't put it on the first couple threads. These are just common knowledge practices. You don't want to contaminate the inside, nor give opportunity for the compound to come off inside. Here's one I'm not familiar with. The electric fuel pump was a "Facet Automotive". Someone else help me out here as I'm not familiar with the carbureted RV-10 fuel system. Is that a normal pump, or something hacked in? I know Facet pumps are used often, but is that the proper pump? Fuel systems aren't something to screw with, so hopefully that was the right one. The fuel selector position, and key position it's hard to interpret. Not good for trying a restart, but the fuel valve off for the crash is a good thing. Not sure what to think about the key position though. There seem to be numerous issues with the plane. I hate it when I hear of people flying continually and regularly without addressing an issue. I mean, he was frustrated with the "constant hassle" of having to reset the alternator in flight. REALLY!?!? I think if mine blows ONCE I need to look at it. Twice and it's an issue for sure. But constantly in flight? WTF are you doing carrying passengers if this is the case?!?! That blows my mind. Then there's the 125psi fuel pressure. Again, you have an indication like that and you just fly it?!?!?! I met a guy once who never calibrated his engine sensors. You have to add proper scale factors and offsets for them to even read accurately. He adjusted his oil pressure on the engine to match his NON-setup instrument. Then found out how to set the instrument up from me. WTF is that about!?! You didn't have time to do that before you first flew? Far better than killing yourself! My only comment to people like that is "THINK!!!!" Then there's the comments from people that they tried to start the engine and the "stater wasn't connected" which it sounds like is actually that the starter was falling off the engine and not making contact. He had heard it making noise on previous flights and now it wouldn't start. Again, REALLY? You hear something odd and don't investigate it? Another one... the Prop only made 2450 RPM, but that's the way it's always been so it wasn't fixed. REALLY!?!?!? So something as important as your engine making the power it needs to isn't important to you? Truly I say, here is someone who just didn't give a crap about doing things "right". There are too many indicators. Didn't put the fuel transducer in earlier because it needed a certain amount of space and had to bend tubing to do it. Gosh, so that's a reason to just not install it then? Then finally DID put it in, but used RTV and didn't connect any wiring to it. This should have been done PRIOR to the first flight. And I don't care if you're Sean Tucker, if you're flying a carbureted airplane you shouldn't consider yourself "not a big proponent of carb heat" if you're going to fly IFR (or even VFR). Carb heat provides a very specific function. If you want to ignore it on your landing prep, that's one thing, but if you dang well better know when is a good time to think about using it. And finally, a plea from me, to you. If you're not someone who's going to thoughtfully approach your build, and try to do things right, please try to refrain from using my name in your internet postings. I know, I know, his Andair fuel valve install wasn't involved in the crash cause at all, other than maybe the fact that he put the handle on reversed, but I wasn't thrilled about seeing that he referred to me in his forum post. If you like what you see, copy it, but if you're doing all sorts of other stupid things, just leave my name out of it. It's like not calling it a "Van's RV-10" if you're going to significantly modify the airframe. I don't need to be tied to your improper methods of build or maintenance. Better yet, just try to do everything to certified aircraft standards and procedures and you won't have to worry about what your NTSB report reads like (or at least cut your chance). Sorry, that may have been part analysis, part rant, but it drives me nuts to see some of the things that bring down planes, especially RV-10's. So far there's been only a very tiny fraction of accidents that were not directly attributable to something stupid that someone did. Let's try to eliminate those sorts of things because we'd have a *near* spotless safety record on our make and model if you eliminated the things that were pure ignorance and idiocy. Tim On 4/9/2015 11:50 PM, Phillip Perry wrote: > Some of you might have seen this already, but Doug Nebert's probable > cause was published today. This was the accident in Oregon last May. > (2 Fatal - 1 Serious) > > * The probable cause document > > is a humbling read... > * Every document in the entire docket > > is worth the read... > * Specifically the photos in this document > are > full of emotion. Anger, Sadness, Disbelief, Confusion. > > In case the links do not work, the case ID is WPR14FA218 so you can look > it up yourself. > > I will give you the nutshell, but you need to go read the documents. > RTV was used to seal NPT fittings on a (recently installed) fuel flow > transducer. A ~0.25" chuckof RTV came loose and flowed downstream into > the metered nozzle of the transducer. The metered hole was ~0.115" in > diameter and the RTV plugged the hole and starved the engine of fuel. > To make matters worse, a stall (and likely the start of a spin) occurred > during the forced landing. > > This is worth a read. There were other indications of an aircraft with > questionable maintenance, but the event that brought down this airplane > was 100% preventable. The real disappointing part is that the issue was > pointed out by a friend but ignored. > > Even if we don't have RTV on our fuel lines (I hope we don't - Same > thing for Teflon Tape), there is a lesson in here for all of us. It > doesn't do us any good to share information and concerns with each other > if we aren't going to take a moment to stop in our tracks and seriously > listen to them. Ears open, mouth closed, stop, and think. I'm as > guilty as the next person, but this is a case where we can all reset > ourselves and improve our fleets record. > > Phil ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:28:05 AM PST US From: Danny Riggs Subject: RE: RV10-List: NTSB - Probable Cause VGltLCANCkkgc2VlbSB0byByZW1lbWJlciBhbiBSVi0xMCB0aGF0IGNyYXNoZWQgYWJvdXQgc2V2 ZW4geWVhcnMgYWdvIGFuZCBpdCB3YXMgcmVwb3J0ZWQgdG8gc3RpbGwgaGF2ZSBjbGVjb3MgaG9s ZGluZyB0aGUgY293bCBvbi4gVGhhdCdzIG5vdCB3aGF0IGNhdXNlZCB0aGUgd3JlY2sgYW5kIGRl YXRoIGJ1dCB3YXMgc3ltcHRvbWF0aWMgb2YgdGhlIHdob2xlIHRoaW5nLiBBcyBJIHJlbWVtYmVy IGl0IHdhcyBydWxlZCBhIHN0YWxsLXNwaW4sIGFzIHVzdWFsIfCfmJwNCg0KPiBEYXRlOiBGcmks IDEwIEFwciAyMDE1IDEwOjE5OjUyIC0wNTAwDQo+IEZyb206IFRpbUBNeVJWMTAuY29tDQo+IFRv OiBydjEwLWxpc3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbQ0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogUlYxMC1MaXN0OiBOVFNC IC0gUHJvYmFibGUgQ2F1c2UNCj4gDQo+IC0tPiBSVjEwLUxpc3QgbWVzc2FnZSBwb3N0ZWQgYnk6 IFRpbSBPbHNvbiA8VGltQG15cnYxMC5jb20+DQo+IA0KPiBQaGlsLA0KPiBUaGFua3MgZm9yIHBv 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We all need to be reminded periodically that this is serious business. We should be taking pride in learning how to build and fly our planes to the best of our ability rather than looking for shortcuts. I remember well trying to find a way to console Dan's wife at his funeral. Not fun. Dick Sipp ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:34 AM PST US From: "Pascal" Subject: Re: RV10-List: NTSB - Probable Cause Tim; Your rant is merited. As you know I and I'm sure many others respect you and your integrity with building. Dan served as a sad but great motivator to me to assure I NEVER fly anyone in my plane until I know it is perfectly (or as perfect as I can expect). Your feedback on that accident served as large part of my CAP presentation many years ago. When I went through "youre the inspector" and showed the events many thought I made up the whole story up it was so far fetched that anyone would do this. I agree that 4 years later we find that another person followed the same road. when I was given my Airworthiness, but the same person who was my Technical Counselor, who insisted in seeing the various phases of my build before signing off the final pink slip, he would not allow me to pass without showing him the panel and the steps I took to assure it met the "initial airspeed and gauge ranges". The fact was simple in his mind.. The first flight is when something may show up.. in my case way high oil pressure, that is no time to determine you have an issue. For someone to go so many hours without an issue is amazing in itself, but to be so nave to fly another person in such a poorly managed airplane is another Dan episode. I have been told, more than once, that what I am doing isnt necessary, but anyone who knows me knows that I take hours researching GAMI folks, EAA speakers and Lycoming and come up with my own theory on engine temps and if "its normal". point here is not one person but a few comments that I consider. I usually take the experienced folks I know, one being in a airpark in Texas and listen carefully for what, when needed I should change. This forum is full of ideas, most are excellent some overkill, but I still take your feedback very seriously Tim, and when you play such a huge part in a forum, writing articles for magazines and being a -10 (soon to be -14) guru, your name will come up. There is that 1% of builders who will make the rest of us look bad, but from what I have seen and the folks I have met, there is 99% solid folks who really are concerned about doing a proper annual and certifying they actually did everything. I am constantly looking at other demises, some are just bad luck and planning, some plain "Darwin award candidates" but some are something I have found myself being in at one point, the decision of a NTSB report was recalled and I made a decision based on "lessons learned", in that case in Texas, we landed, all it was was a rain shower (with huge clouds exploding up) but I was tempted to go on, Im here and the decision may have been overkill, but at least can see that the plane is safely sitting in the hangar for the next flight today. Yes, this event is a sad one, hopefully none of us will learn anything, other than dont cut corners and use the wrong product for the job, but it may be a reminder for something we have done that may cause us to consider changing how we did it. (use a torque wrench on a fitting versus it "being tight enough", etc) Our first day of Officer basic in Fort Rucker we had an officer walk across the grass, versus walking on the walkway. The Commander at the time told us all that "if we cut corners on something as simple as following the walkway, we would find ourselves cutting corners in the way we lived our lives and in the aircraft" Be safe and enjoy the flight! Pascal -----Original Message----- From: Tim Olson Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 8:19 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: NTSB - Probable Cause Phil, Thanks for posting. That's just sickening to read. Regarding Linn's post, I truly think that the people who most often do the very questionable things are also the ones that will never listen to the advice, so it's a hopeless plea, sadly. I think back to how many times I had to get on Dan Lloyd and he never listened once. This particular accident/pilot was far less lax than Dan was, but still, there are just far too many things in the report to allow me to just think "well, at least he knew what he was doing". It was a shocking read, and horrifying when you consider the discussion about the crash and the child, and see the numerous pictures of the plane. There isn't anything left of the front end, and you can't blame the angle of impact on anything but poor piloting, even if you excuse the RTV use. This accident didn't have to end this way. Some things I noted... The fuel handle was installed reverse indicating. Why? Why can't a pilot understand that things like that are critical, and you need to install them so that ANYONE can understand them? Of course, the RTV on the NPT threads... So how many times do we have to discuss this? No teflon tape, no RTV. Fuel lube I guess is the common one, which is good. If you use a paste of any type, or even in the case of anti-seize on spark plugs, you don't put it on the first couple threads. These are just common knowledge practices. You don't want to contaminate the inside, nor give opportunity for the compound to come off inside. Here's one I'm not familiar with. The electric fuel pump was a "Facet Automotive". Someone else help me out here as I'm not familiar with the carbureted RV-10 fuel system. Is that a normal pump, or something hacked in? I know Facet pumps are used often, but is that the proper pump? Fuel systems aren't something to screw with, so hopefully that was the right one. The fuel selector position, and key position it's hard to interpret. Not good for trying a restart, but the fuel valve off for the crash is a good thing. Not sure what to think about the key position though. There seem to be numerous issues with the plane. I hate it when I hear of people flying continually and regularly without addressing an issue. I mean, he was frustrated with the "constant hassle" of having to reset the alternator in flight. REALLY!?!? I think if mine blows ONCE I need to look at it. Twice and it's an issue for sure. But constantly in flight? WTF are you doing carrying passengers if this is the case?!?! That blows my mind. Then there's the 125psi fuel pressure. Again, you have an indication like that and you just fly it?!?!?! I met a guy once who never calibrated his engine sensors. You have to add proper scale factors and offsets for them to even read accurately. He adjusted his oil pressure on the engine to match his NON-setup instrument. Then found out how to set the instrument up from me. WTF is that about!?! You didn't have time to do that before you first flew? Far better than killing yourself! My only comment to people like that is "THINK!!!!" Then there's the comments from people that they tried to start the engine and the "stater wasn't connected" which it sounds like is actually that the starter was falling off the engine and not making contact. He had heard it making noise on previous flights and now it wouldn't start. Again, REALLY? You hear something odd and don't investigate it? Another one... the Prop only made 2450 RPM, but that's the way it's always been so it wasn't fixed. REALLY!?!?!? So something as important as your engine making the power it needs to isn't important to you? Truly I say, here is someone who just didn't give a crap about doing things "right". There are too many indicators. Didn't put the fuel transducer in earlier because it needed a certain amount of space and had to bend tubing to do it. Gosh, so that's a reason to just not install it then? Then finally DID put it in, but used RTV and didn't connect any wiring to it. This should have been done PRIOR to the first flight. And I don't care if you're Sean Tucker, if you're flying a carbureted airplane you shouldn't consider yourself "not a big proponent of carb heat" if you're going to fly IFR (or even VFR). Carb heat provides a very specific function. If you want to ignore it on your landing prep, that's one thing, but if you dang well better know when is a good time to think about using it. And finally, a plea from me, to you. If you're not someone who's going to thoughtfully approach your build, and try to do things right, please try to refrain from using my name in your internet postings. I know, I know, his Andair fuel valve install wasn't involved in the crash cause at all, other than maybe the fact that he put the handle on reversed, but I wasn't thrilled about seeing that he referred to me in his forum post. If you like what you see, copy it, but if you're doing all sorts of other stupid things, just leave my name out of it. It's like not calling it a "Van's RV-10" if you're going to significantly modify the airframe. I don't need to be tied to your improper methods of build or maintenance. Better yet, just try to do everything to certified aircraft standards and procedures and you won't have to worry about what your NTSB report reads like (or at least cut your chance). Sorry, that may have been part analysis, part rant, but it drives me nuts to see some of the things that bring down planes, especially RV-10's. So far there's been only a very tiny fraction of accidents that were not directly attributable to something stupid that someone did. Let's try to eliminate those sorts of things because we'd have a *near* spotless safety record on our make and model if you eliminated the things that were pure ignorance and idiocy. Tim On 4/9/2015 11:50 PM, Phillip Perry wrote: > Some of you might have seen this already, but Doug Nebert's probable > cause was published today. This was the accident in Oregon last May. > (2 Fatal - 1 Serious) > > * The probable cause document > > > is a humbling read... > * Every document in the entire docket > > > is worth the read... > * Specifically the photos in this document > are > full of emotion. Anger, Sadness, Disbelief, Confusion. > > In case the links do not work, the case ID is WPR14FA218 so you can look > it up yourself. > > I will give you the nutshell, but you need to go read the documents. > RTV was used to seal NPT fittings on a (recently installed) fuel flow > transducer. A ~0.25" chuckof RTV came loose and flowed downstream into > the metered nozzle of the transducer. The metered hole was ~0.115" in > diameter and the RTV plugged the hole and starved the engine of fuel. > To make matters worse, a stall (and likely the start of a spin) occurred > during the forced landing. > > This is worth a read. There were other indications of an aircraft with > questionable maintenance, but the event that brought down this airplane > was 100% preventable. The real disappointing part is that the issue was > pointed out by a friend but ignored. > > Even if we don't have RTV on our fuel lines (I hope we don't - Same > thing for Teflon Tape), there is a lesson in here for all of us. It > doesn't do us any good to share information and concerns with each other > if we aren't going to take a moment to stop in our tracks and seriously > listen to them. Ears open, mouth closed, stop, and think. I'm as > guilty as the next person, but this is a case where we can all reset > ourselves and improve our fleets record. > > Phil ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:06 AM PST US From: "Pascal" Subject: Re: RV10-List: NTSB - Probable Cause that=99s the Dan story Tim was alluding to- http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/2009/06/dan-lloyd-crash.html From: Danny Riggs Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 9:24 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: NTSB - Probable Cause Tim, I seem to remember an RV-10 that crashed about seven years ago and it was reported to still have clecos holding the cowl on. That's not what caused the wreck and death but was symptomatic of the whole thing. As I remember it was ruled a stall-spin, as usual!=F0=9F=98=9C > Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 10:19:52 -0500 > From: Tim@MyRV10.com > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: NTSB - Probable Cause > > > Phil, > Thanks for posting. That's just sickening to read. Regarding Linn's > post, I truly think that the people who most often do the very > questionable things are also the ones that will never listen > to the advice, so it's a hopeless plea, sadly. I think back > to how many times I had to get on Dan Lloyd and he never > listened once. This particular accident/pilot was far less > lax than Dan was, but still, there are just far too many things > in the report to allow me to just think "well, at least he > knew what he was doing". It was a shocking read, and horrifying > when you consider the discussion about the crash and the child, > and see the numerous pictures of the plane. There isn't anything > left of the front end, and you can't blame the angle of impact > on anything but poor piloting, even if you excuse the RTV > use. This accident didn't have to end this way. > > Some things I noted... > > The fuel handle was installed reverse indicating. Why? Why > can't a pilot understand that things like that are critical, > and you need to install them so that ANYONE can understand > them? > > Of course, the RTV on the NPT threads... So how many times > do we have to discuss this? No teflon tape, no RTV. Fuel > lube I guess is the common one, which is good. If you use > a paste of any type, or even in the case of anti-seize on > spark plugs, you don't put it on the first couple threads. > These are just common knowledge practices. You don't want > to contaminate the inside, nor give opportunity for the > compound to come off inside. > > Here's one I'm not familiar with. The electric fuel pump > was a "Facet Automotive". Someone else help me out here > as I'm not familiar with the carbureted RV-10 fuel system. > Is that a normal pump, or something hacked in? I know > Facet pumps are used often, but is that the proper pump? > Fuel systems aren't something to screw with, so hopefully > that was the right one. > > The fuel selector position, and key position it's hard > to interpret. Not good for trying a restart, but > the fuel valve off for the crash is a good thing. Not > sure what to think about the key position though. > > There seem to be numerous issues with the plane. I hate it > when I hear of people flying continually and regularly without > addressing an issue. I mean, he was frustrated with > the "constant hassle" of having to reset the alternator > in flight. REALLY!?!? I think if mine blows ONCE I need > to look at it. Twice and it's an issue for sure. But > constantly in flight? WTF are you doing carrying passengers > if this is the case?!?! That blows my mind. > > Then there's the 125psi fuel pressure. Again, you have > an indication like that and you just fly it?!?!?! I met > a guy once who never calibrated his engine sensors. > You have to add proper scale factors and offsets for > them to even read accurately. He adjusted his oil pressure > on the engine to match his NON-setup instrument. Then > found out how to set the instrument up from me. > WTF is that about!?! You didn't have time to do that > before you first flew? Far better than killing yourself! > My only comment to people like that is "THINK!!!!" > > Then there's the comments from people that they tried > to start the engine and the "stater wasn't connected" which > it sounds like is actually that the starter was falling > off the engine and not making contact. He had heard > it making noise on previous flights and now it wouldn't > start. Again, REALLY? You hear something odd and > don't investigate it? > > Another one... the Prop only made 2450 RPM, but that's the > way it's always been so it wasn't fixed. REALLY!?!?!? > So something as important as your engine making the > power it needs to isn't important to you? Truly I say, > here is someone who just didn't give a crap about > doing things "right". There are too many indicators. > > Didn't put the fuel transducer in earlier because it needed > a certain amount of space and had to bend tubing to do it. > Gosh, so that's a reason to just not install it then? > Then finally DID put it in, but used RTV and didn't connect > any wiring to it. This should have been done PRIOR > to the first flight. > > And I don't care if you're Sean Tucker, if you're flying > a carbureted airplane you shouldn't consider yourself > "not a big proponent of carb heat" if you're going to > fly IFR (or even VFR). Carb heat provides a very > specific function. If you want to ignore it on your > landing prep, that's one thing, but if you dang well > better know when is a good time to think about using it. > > And finally, a plea from me, to you. If you're not someone > who's going to thoughtfully approach your build, and try > to do things right, please try to refrain from using my > name in your internet postings. I know, I know, his > Andair fuel valve install wasn't involved in the crash > cause at all, other than maybe the fact that he put the > handle on reversed, but I wasn't thrilled about seeing > that he referred to me in his forum post. If you like > what you see, copy it, but if you're doing all sorts > of other stupid things, just leave my name out of it. > It's like not calling it a "Van's RV-10" if you're > going to significantly modify the airframe. I don't > need to be tied to your improper methods of build or > maintenance. Better yet, just try to do everything to > certified aircraft standards and procedures and you > won't have to worry about what your NTSB report reads > like (or at least cut your chance). > > Sorry, that may have been part analysis, part rant, but > it drives me nuts to see some of the things that bring down > planes, especially RV-10's. So far there's been only a > very tiny fraction of accidents that were not directly > attributable to something stupid that someone did. > Let's try to eliminate those sorts of things because > we'd have a *near* spotless safety record on our make and > model if you eliminated the things that were pure > ignorance and idiocy. > > Tim > > > > > > > On 4/9/2015 11:50 PM, Phillip Perry wrote: > > Some of you might have seen this already, but Doug Nebert's probable > > cause was published today. This was the accident in Oregon last May. > > (2 Fatal - 1 Serious) > > > > * The probable cause document > > > > is a humbling read... > > * Every document in the entire docket > > > > is worth the read... > > * Specifically the photos in this document > > are > > full of emotion. Anger, Sadness, Disbelief, Confusion. > > > > In case the links do not work, the case ID is WPR14FA218 so you can look > > it up yourself. > > > > I will give you the nutshell, but you need to go read the documents. > > RTV was used to seal NPT fittings on a (recently installed) fuel flow > > transducer. A ~0.25" chuckof RTV came loose and flowed downstream into > > the metered nozzle of the transducer. The metered hole was ~0.115" in > > diameter and the RTV plugged the hole and starved the engine of fuel. > > To make matters worse, a stall (and likely the start of a spin) occurred > > during the forced landing. > > > > This is worth a read. There were other indications of an aircraft with > > questionable maintenance, but the event that brought down this airplane > > was 100% preventable. The real disappointing part is that the issue was > > pointed out by a friend but ignored. > > > > Even if we don't have RTV on our fuel lines (I hope we don't - Same > > thing for Teflon Tape), there is a lesson in here for all of us. It > > doesn't do us any good to share information and concerns with each other > > if we aren't going to take a moment to stop in our tracks and seriously > > listen to them. Ears open, mouth closed, stop, and think. I'm as > > guilty as the next person, but this is a case where we can all reset > > ourselves and improve our fleets record. > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > =EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=03g=EF=BD=EF=BD ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:42 AM PST US From: Danny Riggs Subject: RE: RV10-List: NTSB - Probable Cause I think it's somewhat of an ego thing to a certain degree. It's hard on our egos when somebody calls out something we have done wrong on our "babies"! Flying is very unforgiving when our egos get in the way. Unfortunately the family usually pays the ultimate long term price > From: rsipp@earthlink.net > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: NTSB - Probable Cause > Date: Fri=2C 10 Apr 2015 12:34:08 -0400 > > > > Tim=2C > > This needed to be said and you did it well. We all need to be reminded > periodically that this is serious business. > > We should be taking pride in learning how to build and fly our planes to the > best of our ability rather than looking for shortcuts. > > I remember well trying to find a way to console Dan's wife at his funeral . > Not fun. > > Dick Sipp > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:55 AM PST US From: Danny Riggs Subject: RE: RV10-List: NTSB - Probable Cause QWhoaCEgSXQncyBiZWVuIHNvIGxvbmcgdGhhdCBJJ2QgZm9yZ290dGVuIHdobyBpdCB3YXMuIEkg c3RpbGwgcmVtZW1iZXIgc29tZSBvZiB0aGUgbGVzc29ucyBvZiB0aGF0IGNyYXNoIGhvd2V2ZXIh DQoNCkZyb206IHJ2MTBmbHllckBsaXZlLmNvbQ0KVG86IHJ2MTAtbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29t DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogUlYxMC1MaXN0OiBOVFNCIC0gUHJvYmFibGUgQ2F1c2UNCkRhdGU6IEZy aSwgMTAgQXByIDIwMTUgMDk6NDA6MDggLTA3MDANCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KdGhhdOKAmXMgdGhl 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PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCg0KIAkJIAkgICAJCSAg ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:18 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: NTSB - Probable Cause Yeah, that crash was the first, and it had a big impact on a lot of us. I guess if you're going to have a crash at a particular time, that had so many warning signs, that may have been as "good" a time as any. It got a lot of people to stop and reflect on what they have in their garage, before they went out to fly. I also hate to be so "down" on this pilot in this crash that we're talking about today too...it's not my intention to just criticize the pilot, but it does put the blame where it lies, and as usual, he didn't just take his own life with him. So it serves as a good attitude check for us all. It's sad that we even need that sometimes. Overall, I think it's easy to see that the RV-10 has proven to basically have an unscathed safety record when it comes to the airframe. In thinking through the fatal and non-fatal crashes we have on the list, pretty much every one of them was caused by someone doing something they shouldn't have. This should be comforting to us all in that it does show that the onus is on US for the ability to safely take our passengers from ground to sky to ground again without incident. I not only do not want to dodge responsibility for my flights, but I want to accept it happily. I am personally glad that the NTSB does not pull punches and lays the blame on the pilot almost every single time. It really is up to US to make sure that we aren't the next statistic. NOTHING that we are doing is ground breaking and new. There have been hundreds and thousands of people who went before us and paid in blood for all of the rules and regulations and designs that keep us safe today. If we fly our best and use our best judgement, we really should not have need to worry much about the successful outcome of any flight. (with few rare exceptions) Certainly we enjoy a far better safety record than many other models of airplanes, and that we should be humbly proud of. Tim On 4/10/2015 11:55 AM, Danny Riggs wrote: > Ahhh! It's been so long that I'd forgotten who it was. I still remember > some of the lessons of that crash however! > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:40 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: NTSB - Probable Cause From: "Bob Turner" "We have met the enemy, and he is us" - Pogo The other sad thing about both Dan and Doug is that, when faced with the ultimate high-stress test, they both failed as pilots. And they're not alone. No matter how often it's drilled that you never let the plane stall, that you fly it into the trees or until it won't fly anymore, both allowed it to stall while still a fatal distance above the ground. I suspect that we all think we have 'the right stuff', that we wouldn't do that. Yet some of us do. Clearly biennially doing a few stalls at 4000' isn't good enough. And stall training very low is too risky. Is there any way to do realistic training outside of a million dollar simulator? How can we get the "save the plane" mentality out of our thinking? Do we do too much "simulated emergency" training where there's always an airport right below us? What's the right training mix of benefit vs risk? I sure wish I knew the answers to these questions. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440599#440599 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:52 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: NTSB - Probable Cause On 4/10/2015 5:01 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > "We have met the enemy, and he is us" - Pogo I miss Pogo! And he was spot on with that one. > The other sad thing about both Dan and Doug is that, when faced with the ultimate high-stress test, they both failed as pilots. And they're not alone. No matter how often it's drilled that you never let the plane stall, that you fly it into the trees or until it won't fly anymore, both allowed it to stall while still a fatal distance above the ground. I suspect that we all think we have 'the right stuff', that we wouldn't do that. Yet some of us do. Clearly biennially doing a few stalls at 4000' isn't good enough. And stall training very low is too risky. Is there any way to do realistic training outside of a million dollar simulator? How can we get the "save the plane" mentality out of our thinking? Do we do too much "simulated emergency" training where there's always an airport right below us? What's the right training mix of benefit vs risk? I sure wish I knew the answers to these questions. I've had three off-field emergency landings and one on-airport emergency landing, and with the help of all those angels on my shoulders, they were non-events .... no further damage to the airframe, pilot, people/property on the ground .... or the ground. ;-) I firmly believe that we really have no clue how we will react when the s..t hits the fan ..... until it does. All we can do to prepare for emergencies is to think .... 'how would I handle that ?????' when we read of an accident or incident. I do that all the time. I learn from survivors how they handled their 'oh s..t' moments. The problem with emergency training is that there are far too many ways for disaster to occur than we have the time/knowledge to prepare for them. We just try and cope the best we can. Sometimes we win, and sometimes we lose. I think it was Bob Hoover who said 'Fly the airplane as far into the crash as you can.' Sage advice. Trying to stretch the approach to the impact point with insufficient energy will most likely turn a flying airplane into a lawn dart. It is, as you said, the 'save the plane' mentality, and I've lost friends because of it. My airplanes owe me nothing .... I've had so much pleasure with their use that if I lose one .... I hope to be around another day to fly again. Yes, it will be painful, and I'd be happy to survive and mourn. Linn > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440599#440599 > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:08 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: NTSB - Probable Cause From: Phillip Perry > > " All we can do to prepare for emergencies is to think .... 'how would I > handle that ?????' when we read of an accident or incident. I do that all > the time. I learn from survivors how they handled their 'oh s..t' moments. > " > Comment above: I have a wife who has a PhD is this sort of stuff. (Really) She was telling me about a study conducted by an I/O Psychologist who was in the Bay Area during the World Series Earthquake. After the quake occurred, he observed there were two different types of people. There were those people that immediately jumped into action securing themselves and rescuing people. Then there were others who folded up and basically sat on the street curb crying. It gave him an idea to conduct a study and try to determine why a catastrophic event of this size polarized the people into two separate groups. After conducting the study, he found that the group of people took action overwhelmingly played through what-if scenarios in their head. If this happens, how would I react. What would I do. Where would I go? What would my plan be? What would get me in trouble? I call them the Walter Mitty crowd and I tend to identify with them. :) The other group were those who just blindly lived their lives day to day. Never realizing they were a moment away from catastrophe. No clue that their version of day-to-day life should be expected. Phil Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:30 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Shoulder Harnesses From: Phillip Perry Last night I was thinking about the images in Doug's photos and was really curious to know how effective the shoulder harness anchor bolt is in that situation. My curiosity stems from seeing a friends Culver Cadet (no shoulder harnesses in that old plane) that he landed off field 7 years ago. It's still sitting in his garage and has a pair of human head shaped indentations in the glare shield. If he had effective shoulder harnesses, it would have saved them some blood and a deviated septum. We've had a handful of RV-10 accidents that have tested the integrity of the shoulder harness anchor bolt possibly being pulled through the fiberglass hole. I just wonder how it really performed in each of these accidents. 1) Have any of you seen, first hand, an RV-10 airframe after it has been in an accident where the shoulder harnesses were stressed significantly? 2) Would any of you know where we could get that information? Perhaps a FOIA or something similar? I'd really like to get the real details on how that shoulder harness performed. We've probably got 5-6 accidents where that information could/would be collected. Phil ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: NTSB - Probable Cause From: Miller John Amen! Well said, Tim! grumpy > On Apr 10, 2015, at 10:19 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > > > Phil, > Thanks for posting. That's just sickening to read. Regarding Linn's > post, I truly think that the people who most often do the very > questionable things are also the ones that will never listen > to the advice, so it's a hopeless plea, sadly. I think back > to how many times I had to get on Dan Lloyd and he never > listened once. This particular accident/pilot was far less > lax than Dan was, but still, there are just far too many things > in the report to allow me to just think "well, at least he > knew what he was doing". It was a shocking read, and horrifying > when you consider the discussion about the crash and the child, > and see the numerous pictures of the plane. There isn't anything > left of the front end, and you can't blame the angle of impact > on anything but poor piloting, even if you excuse the RTV > use. This accident didn't have to end this way. > > Some things I noted... > > The fuel handle was installed reverse indicating. Why? Why > can't a pilot understand that things like that are critical, > and you need to install them so that ANYONE can understand > them? > > Of course, the RTV on the NPT threads... So how many times > do we have to discuss this? No teflon tape, no RTV. Fuel > lube I guess is the common one, which is good. If you use > a paste of any type, or even in the case of anti-seize on > spark plugs, you don't put it on the first couple threads. > These are just common knowledge practices. You don't want > to contaminate the inside, nor give opportunity for the > compound to come off inside. > > Here's one I'm not familiar with. The electric fuel pump > was a "Facet Automotive". Someone else help me out here > as I'm not familiar with the carbureted RV-10 fuel system. > Is that a normal pump, or something hacked in? I know > Facet pumps are used often, but is that the proper pump? > Fuel systems aren't something to screw with, so hopefully > that was the right one. > > The fuel selector position, and key position it's hard > to interpret. Not good for trying a restart, but > the fuel valve off for the crash is a good thing. Not > sure what to think about the key position though. > > There seem to be numerous issues with the plane. I hate it > when I hear of people flying continually and regularly without > addressing an issue. I mean, he was frustrated with > the "constant hassle" of having to reset the alternator > in flight. REALLY!?!? I think if mine blows ONCE I need > to look at it. Twice and it's an issue for sure. But > constantly in flight? WTF are you doing carrying passengers > if this is the case?!?! That blows my mind. > > Then there's the 125psi fuel pressure. Again, you have > an indication like that and you just fly it?!?!?! I met > a guy once who never calibrated his engine sensors. > You have to add proper scale factors and offsets for > them to even read accurately. He adjusted his oil pressure > on the engine to match his NON-setup instrument. Then > found out how to set the instrument up from me. > WTF is that about!?! You didn't have time to do that > before you first flew? Far better than killing yourself! > My only comment to people like that is "THINK!!!!" > > Then there's the comments from people that they tried > to start the engine and the "stater wasn't connected" which > it sounds like is actually that the starter was falling > off the engine and not making contact. He had heard > it making noise on previous flights and now it wouldn't > start. Again, REALLY? You hear something odd and > don't investigate it? > > Another one... the Prop only made 2450 RPM, but that's the > way it's always been so it wasn't fixed. REALLY!?!?!? > So something as important as your engine making the > power it needs to isn't important to you? Truly I say, > here is someone who just didn't give a crap about > doing things "right". There are too many indicators. > > Didn't put the fuel transducer in earlier because it needed > a certain amount of space and had to bend tubing to do it. > Gosh, so that's a reason to just not install it then? > Then finally DID put it in, but used RTV and didn't connect > any wiring to it. This should have been done PRIOR > to the first flight. > > And I don't care if you're Sean Tucker, if you're flying > a carbureted airplane you shouldn't consider yourself > "not a big proponent of carb heat" if you're going to > fly IFR (or even VFR). Carb heat provides a very > specific function. If you want to ignore it on your > landing prep, that's one thing, but if you dang well > better know when is a good time to think about using it. > > And finally, a plea from me, to you. If you're not someone > who's going to thoughtfully approach your build, and try > to do things right, please try to refrain from using my > name in your internet postings. I know, I know, his > Andair fuel valve install wasn't involved in the crash > cause at all, other than maybe the fact that he put the > handle on reversed, but I wasn't thrilled about seeing > that he referred to me in his forum post. If you like > what you see, copy it, but if you're doing all sorts > of other stupid things, just leave my name out of it. > It's like not calling it a "Van's RV-10" if you're > going to significantly modify the airframe. I don't > need to be tied to your improper methods of build or > maintenance. Better yet, just try to do everything to > certified aircraft standards and procedures and you > won't have to worry about what your NTSB report reads > like (or at least cut your chance). > > Sorry, that may have been part analysis, part rant, but > it drives me nuts to see some of the things that bring down > planes, especially RV-10's. So far there's been only a > very tiny fraction of accidents that were not directly > attributable to something stupid that someone did. > Let's try to eliminate those sorts of things because > we'd have a *near* spotless safety record on our make and > model if you eliminated the things that were pure > ignorance and idiocy. > > Tim > > > > > > > On 4/9/2015 11:50 PM, Phillip Perry wrote: >> Some of you might have seen this already, but Doug Nebert's probable >> cause was published today. This was the accident in Oregon last May. >> (2 Fatal - 1 Serious) >> >> * The probable cause document >> >> is a humbling read... >> * Every document in the entire docket >> >> is worth the read... >> * Specifically the photos in this document >> are >> full of emotion. Anger, Sadness, Disbelief, Confusion. >> >> In case the links do not work, the case ID is WPR14FA218 so you can look >> it up yourself. >> >> I will give you the nutshell, but you need to go read the documents. >> RTV was used to seal NPT fittings on a (recently installed) fuel flow >> transducer. A ~0.25" chuckof RTV came loose and flowed downstream into >> the metered nozzle of the transducer. The metered hole was ~0.115" in >> diameter and the RTV plugged the hole and starved the engine of fuel. >> To make matters worse, a stall (and likely the start of a spin) occurred >> during the forced landing. >> >> This is worth a read. There were other indications of an aircraft with >> questionable maintenance, but the event that brought down this airplane >> was 100% preventable. The real disappointing part is that the issue was >> pointed out by a friend but ignored. >> >> Even if we don't have RTV on our fuel lines (I hope we don't - Same >> thing for Teflon Tape), there is a lesson in here for all of us. It >> doesn't do us any good to share information and concerns with each other >> if we aren't going to take a moment to stop in our tracks and seriously >> listen to them. Ears open, mouth closed, stop, and think. I'm as >> guilty as the next person, but this is a case where we can all reset >> ourselves and improve our fleets record. >> >> Phil > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:23 PM PST US From: David Saylor Subject: Re: RV10-List: Shoulder Harnesses Phil, I think it's worth considering that if the harness bolt is pulled in the intended direction, it seems to me that it would be loaded in shear, not tension. So if the crash is survivable, the bolt pulling through the cabin cover isn't what we would see. I'm not an engineer, but I did copy the front mounts for my rear inertia mounts...and I wondered the same thing until it occurred to me that the bolt gets tugged in a line approaching the direction of flight. I don't think it would get pulled through. --Dave On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Phillip Perry wrote: > Last night I was thinking about the images in Doug's photos and was really > curious to know how effective the shoulder harness anchor bolt is in that > situation. > > My curiosity stems from seeing a friends Culver Cadet (no shoulder > harnesses in that old plane) that he landed off field 7 years ago. It's > still sitting in his garage and has a pair of human head shaped > indentations in the glare shield. If he had effective shoulder harnesses, > it would have saved them some blood and a deviated septum. > > We've had a handful of RV-10 accidents that have tested the integrity of > the shoulder harness anchor bolt possibly being pulled through the > fiberglass hole. I just wonder how it really performed in each of these > accidents. > > 1) Have any of you seen, first hand, an RV-10 airframe after it has been > in an accident where the shoulder harnesses were stressed significantly? > > 2) Would any of you know where we could get that information? Perhaps a > FOIA or something similar? > > I'd really like to get the real details on how that shoulder harness > performed. We've probably got 5-6 accidents where that information > could/would be collected. > > Phil > > * > > > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.