Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:39 AM - Re: Fuel Return Line Location? (kearney)
2. 06:53 AM - Re: Fuel Return Line Location? (Carl Froehlich)
3. 07:00 AM - Re: Fuel Return Line Location? (Kelly McMullen)
4. 08:16 AM - Re: Fuel Return Line Location? (Jesse Saint)
5. 09:04 AM - Re: Fuel Return Line Location? (Berck E. Nash)
6. 09:41 AM - Re: Fuel Return Line Location? (Jesse Saint)
7. 09:58 AM - Re: Fuel Return Line Location? (Berck E. Nash)
8. 10:17 AM - Re: Fuel Return Line Location? (Berck E. Nash)
9. 10:40 AM - Re: Fuel Return Line Location? (Carl Froehlich)
10. 11:04 AM - Re: Fuel Return Line Location? (Jesse Saint)
11. 12:47 PM - Re: Fuel Return Line Location? (Kelly McMullen)
12. 02:18 PM - Re: Fuel Return Line Location? (Justin Jones)
13. 06:26 PM - Re: Fuel Return Line Location? (Berck E. Nash)
14. 07:27 PM - Re: Fuel Return Line Location? (Carl Froehlich)
15. 08:07 PM - Fuel Selector was: Fuel Return Line Location? (David Saylor)
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Return Line Location? |
Bereck
I had a similar setup to what your plans. Until a few months had a different engine
(Subie) which I replaced with a IO540. I still use the return line for my
purge valvle.
I used an Andair duplex valve that returns fuel to the originating tank. With full
tanks, you will pump a lot of gas overboard if the tanks / return line is
mismatched. Running dual lines to the tanks is not a problem.
I used an AN832 bulkhead union, mounted similar to that shown in the tank plans,
to make the connection. I also a flange riveted to the inside of the tank to
keep the union from turning when the nut is applied to the outside. Again see
the tank plans. Lots of proseal made sure nothing leaked.
You probably want to mount the fitting high and to the aft of the tank so that
you do not interfere with the sender. If possible, you should run a tube from
the fitting through the first tank baffle so that the returned fuel is dumped
into the second tank cell. This allows it to cool and mix with other fuel before
being reused. All of this is best done before the tanks are sealed. If the
aren't, you can do everything (except perhaps for the fuel line to the second
cell) through the fuel sender hole, it is just a bit tricky. This is what I did
- I wasn't able to get the fuel back to the second cell but only to outboard
side of the first.
All my fuel lines in the tunnel were braided steel. Under the seats I had to go
back to aluminum because of how the lines were run. My fuel filters are mounted
in the wing roots - one for each tank.
I completely agree with Dave's recommendation -keep it simple! You don't want to
put yourself in a position where a simple error can lead to heartache and a
bent air frame.
Cheers
Les
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441042#441042
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| Subject: | Fuel Return Line Location? |
Berck,
I added a 1/4" purge line return to the left tank when building in case I
ended up with an AFP injection system (photo attached). This is the same
location I used the RV-8A which had AFP injection.
Adding a return line is straight forward and if you get the fitting in about
the same area as the vent line connection you should not have an issue. I'd
keep it high (like my photo) so that it is away from the fuel pick up -
should help with pulling cooler fuel into the engine as compared to the
hotter return fuel.
Just curious - how much did this EFII system cost?
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Berck E. Nash
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Return Line Location?
I'm leaning toward a duplex valve, but I'm also considering two fuel valves,
one for the source and one for the return. This isn't that different than
jets I've flown, and I think I can handle the "complexity". It's cheaper
and it gives the advantage of being able to transfer fuel, which might come
in handy. Regardless, none of the answers so far tell me where to tap the
return line:)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Return Line Location? |
Just keep in mind that what may be appropriate and work fine in a high
wing aircraft is not suitable for a low wing aircraft. IMHO there is
little to no need to transfer fuel between wings on a single engine
aircraft. Managing fuel burn can easily keep the wings balanced, given
that each wing only holds about 2.5 hours of fuel. The RV-10 wing
arrangement is no place for a selector with a "both" position. It is too
easy for someone scanning the archives of this list to get the wrong
idea by a discussion of what works on a totally different airframe.
On 4/19/2015 9:50 PM, Justin Jones wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I understand your concern and welcome any ideas and thoughts that may
> be cause for issues. The issues you brought up have been considered
> and here is what I have come up with. Note that I have spoken with
> many others about this as well, but it doesnt mean that we arent
> missing something.
>
> The normal configuration (covered on the before take-off checklist)
> would be both return valves open and the fuel valve on both. The
> transfer of fuel during refueling operations (while the aircraft is on
> floats) is one reason for this setup, and the other is the ability to
> draw fuel from both tanks simultaneously.
>
> You could return to a full tank and waste fuel overboard - This
> scenario could present itself, but would cause an over-pressure
> situation due to the vent size. The digital engine monitor senses
> fuel pressure and sounds an audio and visual alarm when it is either
> too high or too low.
>
> You could unport an empty tank into BOTH and starve the engine -
> This scenario has also been tested. With one tank empty, one tank
> full, and the selector to BOTH, there was still full fuel pressure.
> This may be due to the high-wing design and the fuel system plumbing
> called for by Robert Paisley of EFII.
>
> You could turn off both return valves and I dont know what, but it
> seems bad - It would cause the fuel to back up at the valves, and the
> fuel pressure would increase to the maximum that the GL393 fuel pump
> would put out. This would be 105 PSI at 10 Gallons per hour. Not
> sustainable, but not harmful to the injectors or fuel lines for short
> periods of time. Again, the Engine Monitor will alarm when the fuel
> pressure begins to increase. The fuel system has been tested to the
> fuel pump stall pressure of 115 PSI and found to have no leaks.
>
> I fly C-130s and King Air 200s and they both have fuel systems that
> are far more complicated. Flying aircraft will always require
> thought. With the duplex fuel valve, the pilot must remember to switch
> the fuel valves when it is necessary. I like the idea of being able
> to operate in a normal scenario with the fuel valve on both, and have
> the fuel is return to both tanks. If the situation arises, I can put
> the fuel where it is needed and I have a good monitoring system that
> will alert me if I make a mistake in the positioning of fuel valves.
> The return valves do not have a position that will cause the engine to
> quit turning.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Justin
>
>
>> On Apr 19, 2015, at 7:30 PM, David Saylor <saylor.dave@gmail.com
>> <mailto:saylor.dave@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Justin,
>>
>> You are of course free to build whatever fuel system you like, but
>> the one you described has some issues.
>>
>> I think you'd be better off with a L-R-OFF duplex fuel valve that
>> routes return fuel to the same tank you're burning from. You're
>> headed towards a scenario that makes it pretty easy to mismanage the
>> fuel:
>>
>> You could return to a full tank and waste fuel overboard;
>>
>> You could unport an empty tank in "BOTH" and starve the engine;
>>
>> You could turn off both return valves and...I don't know what, but it
>> seems bad.
>>
>> Please consider a simpler system. Caution never goes as far as we
>> think it will.
>>
>> --Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 8:00 PM, Justin Jones
>> <jmjones2000@mindspring.com <mailto:jmjones2000@mindspring.com>> wrote:
>>
>> <jmjones2000@mindspring.com <mailto:jmjones2000@mindspring.com>>
>>
>> Berck,
>>
>> I am using an EFII system as well. Just a thought, but I put a
>> normal L/R/Both/Off fuel valve on the supply side (AN6) and an
>> AN6 size return line that Splits to each tank. After the "T" I
>> put a simple Parker petroleum 1/4 turn ball valve on each side
>> just before the tank. Now, I can shut one or the other return
>> valves off, turn on the fuel pump, and transfer fuel on the
>> ground. It can also be done in the air (with caution of course)
>> to trim fuel.
>>
>> Note: I'm building a Bushcaddy not an rv10.
>>
>> I can send pics if you would like.
>>
>> Justin
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 19, 2015, at 18:10, Berck E. Nash <flyboy@gmail.com
>> <mailto:flyboy@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> <flyboy@gmail.com <mailto:flyboy@gmail.com>>
>> >
>> > We're planning on EFII, so we need a full-sized return line for
>> both
>> > sides. Just now starting work on the fuel tank, and I'd like
>> to get
>> > this sorted before we get too far. I've spent awhile
>> searching, and
>> > have only managed to find lots of places not to put the port
>> for the
>> > fuel return line. Apparently it can interfere with both the
>> wing spar
>> > and the aileron return line. Does anyone have a clear diagram
>> of where
>> > I can safely put it? A hint about which flange/fittings to buy
>> would be
>> > greatly appreciated as well. Thanks in advance!
>> >
>> > Berck
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> class="">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> class="">http://forums.matronics.com
>> class="">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Return Line Location? |
I think I'm flying Phase 1 in the first RV-10 with the full EFII system. I'm not
sure how much fuel gets returned to the tank, but it is significant. We have
a double stack Andair selector so it returns to the same tank that it is pulling
from. I wouldn't have it any other way. It is so easy to do it this way that
returning to one tank all the time, or having to process which tank you are
pulling from and returning to would, IMHO, way over complicate things.
As for the fuel return location, we put it forward in the bay and up fairly high.
It's just a bulkhead fitting with a nut and ProSeal to seal it. If the tanks
were open, we might have put in an NPT female bung instead, but this works just
fine.
There has been no problem at all with fuel vapor lock. I don't think it is necessary
to return the fuel to the second bay. My fear if doing that would be the
possibility of getting low on fuel and starting to suck air because you are dumping
the fuel too far outboard. I don't know the exact effect, but it would
expect that would effectively reduce your useable fuel level even more than it
does by returning it to the first bay.
Btw, the EFII system does add a lot of necessary complexity, dual bus, dual alternators,
dual electric fuel pumps, dual ECU's, etc. It took a while to get up
the nerve to be the test pilot on it. New airframe, new engine, new style ignition
and injection system, etc. I will say, however, that it has been absolutely
rock solid stable for all 10 hours so far. I need to put 15-20 more hours
on it the week after Sun-N-Fun, but that shouldn't be a problem. In my mind, the
jury is still out on the system, but they are starting to trickle in with a
not-a-bad-system verdict.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse@saintaviation.com
Sent from my iPad
> On Apr 20, 2015, at 9:49 AM, Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Berck,
>
> I added a 1/4" purge line return to the left tank when building in case I
> ended up with an AFP injection system (photo attached). This is the same
> location I used the RV-8A which had AFP injection.
>
> Adding a return line is straight forward and if you get the fitting in about
> the same area as the vent line connection you should not have an issue. I'd
> keep it high (like my photo) so that it is away from the fuel pick up -
> should help with pulling cooler fuel into the engine as compared to the
> hotter return fuel.
>
> Just curious - how much did this EFII system cost?
>
> Carl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Berck E. Nash
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 12:44 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Return Line Location?
>
>
> I'm leaning toward a duplex valve, but I'm also considering two fuel valves,
> one for the source and one for the return. This isn't that different than
> jets I've flown, and I think I can handle the "complexity". It's cheaper
> and it gives the advantage of being able to transfer fuel, which might come
> in handy. Regardless, none of the answers so far tell me where to tap the
> return line:)
>
>
>
> <fuel sender.jpg>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Return Line Location? |
Carl- thanks so much for the picture. I'll plan on the same location. As
for the cost: We haven't purchased anything yet, and probably won't until
we source an engine. Hoping available systems will only get cheaper, but
cursory research indicates it'll cost not much more than more conventional
FI and ignition setups.
Jesse- Thanks for the heads up. Glad to hear that one is flying already,
and I hope you'll keep us updated of any gotchas. After seeing that an EFII
system is available, I can't imagine not using it. I'm aware of the need
for a fully redundant electrical system and dual ECU's. I was already
planning on dual electronic ignition and the dual alternators that
necessitates, so electronic fuel injection only makes sense to me. This
is, I think, the beauty of building an experimental-- the ability to use
"modern" (30-year-old tried-and-tested) technology in an airplane, instead
of being forced to rely on a fuel delivery system from the 1950's.
Any RV-10 specific EFII links, information, vendor tips, etc, would be
greatly appreciated.
As for the "complexity" of a fuel return tank selection, it seems a bit
silly to me that choosing a return tank is considered "overly complex."
It's the difference of switching two valves instead of one when you switch
tanks in normal operations. Sure, it's more complex than a single knob,
but I'm used to much more complicated fuel systems many of which require
deliberate knowledge of the fuel return tank. I'm not really concerned
about it either way. The only reason to want to transfer fuel would be a
leak, and in most situations, getting on the ground quickly makes a lot
more sense than moving fuel around. Since I won't have to worry about the
insane complexity of a mixture control, I can use those saved neurons to
handle the fuel return tank if I wind up with two valves.
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich@verizon.net>
wrote:
> Berck,
>
> I added a 1/4" purge line return to the left tank when building in case I
> ended up with an AFP injection system (photo attached). This is the same
> location I used the RV-8A which had AFP injection.
>
> Adding a return line is straight forward and if you get the fitting in
> about
> the same area as the vent line connection you should not have an issue.
> I'd
> keep it high (like my photo) so that it is away from the fuel pick up -
> should help with pulling cooler fuel into the engine as compared to the
> hotter return fuel.
>
> Just curious - how much did this EFII system cost?
>
> Carl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Berck E. Nash
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 12:44 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Return Line Location?
>
>
> I'm leaning toward a duplex valve, but I'm also considering two fuel
> valves,
> one for the source and one for the return. This isn't that different than
> jets I've flown, and I think I can handle the "complexity". It's cheaper
> and it gives the advantage of being able to transfer fuel, which might come
> in handy. Regardless, none of the answers so far tell me where to tap the
> return line:)
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Return Line Location? |
I think you're kidding yourself if you think there is no mixture to worry ab
out. I spend more time on the mixture knob so far than I do on the mixture c
ontrol with a standard system. It's possible that once you get things all tu
ned up the way you want them you may not use it as much, but I really don't u
se it that much on a standard system either. I lean a little as I climb, the
n I set power, rpm and fuel flow for cruise.
I would imagine if you are burnin 12gph, you are probably returning at least
that much to the tank, if not more. I wouldn't want to have to mess with pi
cking a return tank separate from a feed tank. There are warnings when your f
uel in a tank gets low, but I don't know of a warning saying your tank is ge
tting too full. If you get busy or get bored and aren't managing fuel with a
normal system, you will get something yelling at you saying you're getting i
nto the red on the draw tank, but it won't happen if you start to pump it ov
erboard through the return tank vent.
I agree that electric ignition is tried and true in cars, but so far there a
re a total of 10 fleet hours in the RV-10 with a full EFII system and thousa
nds and thousands with mags and standard fuel injection. Far from a no-brain
ier in my book unless you are talking the other way around.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse@saintaviation.com
Sent from my iPad
> On Apr 20, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Berck E. Nash <flyboy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Carl- thanks so much for the picture. I'll plan on the same location. As
for the cost: We haven't purchased anything yet, and probably won't until w
e source an engine. Hoping available systems will only get cheaper, but cur
sory research indicates it'll cost not much more than more conventional FI a
nd ignition setups.
>
> Jesse- Thanks for the heads up. Glad to hear that one is flying already, a
nd I hope you'll keep us updated of any gotchas. After seeing that an EFII s
ystem is available, I can't imagine not using it. I'm aware of the need for
a fully redundant electrical system and dual ECU's. I was already planning o
n dual electronic ignition and the dual alternators that necessitates, so el
ectronic fuel injection only makes sense to me. This is, I think, the beaut
y of building an experimental-- the ability to use "modern" (30-year-old tri
ed-and-tested) technology in an airplane, instead of being forced to rely on
a fuel delivery system from the 1950's.
>
> Any RV-10 specific EFII links, information, vendor tips, etc, would be gre
atly appreciated.
>
> As for the "complexity" of a fuel return tank selection, it seems a bit si
lly to me that choosing a return tank is considered "overly complex." It's t
he difference of switching two valves instead of one when you switch tanks i
n normal operations. Sure, it's more complex than a single knob, but I'm us
ed to much more complicated fuel systems many of which require deliberate kn
owledge of the fuel return tank. I'm not really concerned about it either w
ay. The only reason to want to transfer fuel would be a leak, and in most s
ituations, getting on the ground quickly makes a lot more sense than moving f
uel around. Since I won't have to worry about the insane complexity of a mi
xture control, I can use those saved neurons to handle the fuel return tank i
f I wind up with two valves.
>
>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich@verizon.n
et> wrote:
>> Berck,
>>
>> I added a 1/4" purge line return to the left tank when building in case I
>> ended up with an AFP injection system (photo attached). This is the same
>> location I used the RV-8A which had AFP injection.
>>
>> Adding a return line is straight forward and if you get the fitting in ab
out
>> the same area as the vent line connection you should not have an issue. I
'd
>> keep it high (like my photo) so that it is away from the fuel pick up -
>> should help with pulling cooler fuel into the engine as compared to the
>> hotter return fuel.
>>
>> Just curious - how much did this EFII system cost?
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Berck E. Nash
>> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 12:44 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Return Line Location?
>>
>>
>> I'm leaning toward a duplex valve, but I'm also considering two fuel valv
es,
>> one for the source and one for the return. This isn't that different tha
n
>> jets I've flown, and I think I can handle the "complexity". It's cheaper
>> and it gives the advantage of being able to transfer fuel, which might co
me
>> in handy. Regardless, none of the answers so far tell me where to tap th
e
>> return line:)
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Return Line Location? |
Since the fuel is metered directly at the injectors by the ECU, why do you
have to mess with the mixture knob? The EFII website says, "Automatic
mixture control (no mixture knob to fool with)", but you're saying that's
not entirely true? Is the issue that you're compensating for a lack of
initial ECU programming by altering the fuel pressure until the you get the
programming dialed in? Since the system has a MAP and IAT sensor, it seems
like it should be able to meter correctly without any input from the
pilot. It doesn't look like the EFII includes an oxygen sensor, though?
Any idea if there are plans to fly this plane on automotive gasoline?
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com>
wrote:
> I think you're kidding yourself if you think there is no mixture to worry
> about. I spend more time on the mixture knob so far than I do on the
> mixture control with a standard system. It's possible that once you get
> things all tuned up the way you want them you may not use it as much, but I
> really don't use it that much on a standard system either. I lean a little
> as I climb, then I set power, rpm and fuel flow for cruise.
>
> I would imagine if you are burnin 12gph, you are probably returning at
> least that much to the tank, if not more. I wouldn't want to have to mess
> with picking a return tank separate from a feed tank. There are warnings
> when your fuel in a tank gets low, but I don't know of a warning saying
> your tank is getting too full. If you get busy or get bored and aren't
> managing fuel with a normal system, you will get something yelling at you
> saying you're getting into the red on the draw tank, but it won't happen if
> you start to pump it overboard through the return tank vent.
>
> I agree that electric ignition is tried and true in cars, but so far there
> are a total of 10 fleet hours in the RV-10 with a full EFII system and
> thousands and thousands with mags and standard fuel injection. Far from a
> no-brainier in my book unless you are talking the other way around.
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> 352-427-0285
> jesse@saintaviation.com
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Apr 20, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Berck E. Nash <flyboy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Carl- thanks so much for the picture. I'll plan on the same location. As
> for the cost: We haven't purchased anything yet, and probably won't until
> we source an engine. Hoping available systems will only get cheaper, but
> cursory research indicates it'll cost not much more than more conventional
> FI and ignition setups.
>
> Jesse- Thanks for the heads up. Glad to hear that one is flying already,
> and I hope you'll keep us updated of any gotchas. After seeing that an EFII
> system is available, I can't imagine not using it. I'm aware of the need
> for a fully redundant electrical system and dual ECU's. I was already
> planning on dual electronic ignition and the dual alternators that
> necessitates, so electronic fuel injection only makes sense to me. This
> is, I think, the beauty of building an experimental-- the ability to use
> "modern" (30-year-old tried-and-tested) technology in an airplane, instead
> of being forced to rely on a fuel delivery system from the 1950's.
>
> Any RV-10 specific EFII links, information, vendor tips, etc, would be
> greatly appreciated.
>
> As for the "complexity" of a fuel return tank selection, it seems a bit
> silly to me that choosing a return tank is considered "overly complex."
> It's the difference of switching two valves instead of one when you switch
> tanks in normal operations. Sure, it's more complex than a single knob,
> but I'm used to much more complicated fuel systems many of which require
> deliberate knowledge of the fuel return tank. I'm not really concerned
> about it either way. The only reason to want to transfer fuel would be a
> leak, and in most situations, getting on the ground quickly makes a lot
> more sense than moving fuel around. Since I won't have to worry about the
> insane complexity of a mixture control, I can use those saved neurons to
> handle the fuel return tank if I wind up with two valves.
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Carl Froehlich <
> carl.froehlich@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Berck,
>>
>> I added a 1/4" purge line return to the left tank when building in case I
>> ended up with an AFP injection system (photo attached). This is the same
>> location I used the RV-8A which had AFP injection.
>>
>> Adding a return line is straight forward and if you get the fitting in
>> about
>> the same area as the vent line connection you should not have an issue.
>> I'd
>> keep it high (like my photo) so that it is away from the fuel pick up -
>> should help with pulling cooler fuel into the engine as compared to the
>> hotter return fuel.
>>
>> Just curious - how much did this EFII system cost?
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Berck E. Nash
>> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 12:44 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Return Line Location?
>>
>>
>> I'm leaning toward a duplex valve, but I'm also considering two fuel
>> valves,
>> one for the source and one for the return. This isn't that different than
>> jets I've flown, and I think I can handle the "complexity". It's cheaper
>> and it gives the advantage of being able to transfer fuel, which might
>> come
>> in handy. Regardless, none of the answers so far tell me where to tap the
>> return line:)
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> D============================================
> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
> D============================================
> //forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
> D============================================
> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
> D============================================
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Return Line Location? |
Oh, I just realized you meant the EFII-supplied mixture knob... Which
means that programming a solid fuel hands-off fuel map takes some time?
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Berck E. Nash <flyboy@gmail.com> wrote:
> Since the fuel is metered directly at the injectors by the ECU, why do you
> have to mess with the mixture knob? The EFII website says, "Automatic
> mixture control (no mixture knob to fool with)", but you're saying that's
> not entirely true? Is the issue that you're compensating for a lack of
> initial ECU programming by altering the fuel pressure until the you get the
> programming dialed in? Since the system has a MAP and IAT sensor, it seems
> like it should be able to meter correctly without any input from the
> pilot. It doesn't look like the EFII includes an oxygen sensor, though?
>
> Any idea if there are plans to fly this plane on automotive gasoline?
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I think you're kidding yourself if you think there is no mixture to worry
>> about. I spend more time on the mixture knob so far than I do on the
>> mixture control with a standard system. It's possible that once you get
>> things all tuned up the way you want them you may not use it as much, but I
>> really don't use it that much on a standard system either. I lean a little
>> as I climb, then I set power, rpm and fuel flow for cruise.
>>
>> I would imagine if you are burnin 12gph, you are probably returning at
>> least that much to the tank, if not more. I wouldn't want to have to mess
>> with picking a return tank separate from a feed tank. There are warnings
>> when your fuel in a tank gets low, but I don't know of a warning saying
>> your tank is getting too full. If you get busy or get bored and aren't
>> managing fuel with a normal system, you will get something yelling at you
>> saying you're getting into the red on the draw tank, but it won't happen if
>> you start to pump it overboard through the return tank vent.
>>
>> I agree that electric ignition is tried and true in cars, but so far
>> there are a total of 10 fleet hours in the RV-10 with a full EFII system
>> and thousands and thousands with mags and standard fuel injection. Far from
>> a no-brainier in my book unless you are talking the other way around.
>>
>> Jesse Saint
>> Saint Aviation, Inc.
>> 352-427-0285
>> jesse@saintaviation.com
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Apr 20, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Berck E. Nash <flyboy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Carl- thanks so much for the picture. I'll plan on the same location.
>> As for the cost: We haven't purchased anything yet, and probably won't
>> until we source an engine. Hoping available systems will only get cheaper,
>> but cursory research indicates it'll cost not much more than more
>> conventional FI and ignition setups.
>>
>> Jesse- Thanks for the heads up. Glad to hear that one is flying already,
>> and I hope you'll keep us updated of any gotchas. After seeing that an EFII
>> system is available, I can't imagine not using it. I'm aware of the need
>> for a fully redundant electrical system and dual ECU's. I was already
>> planning on dual electronic ignition and the dual alternators that
>> necessitates, so electronic fuel injection only makes sense to me. This
>> is, I think, the beauty of building an experimental-- the ability to use
>> "modern" (30-year-old tried-and-tested) technology in an airplane, instead
>> of being forced to rely on a fuel delivery system from the 1950's.
>>
>> Any RV-10 specific EFII links, information, vendor tips, etc, would be
>> greatly appreciated.
>>
>> As for the "complexity" of a fuel return tank selection, it seems a bit
>> silly to me that choosing a return tank is considered "overly complex."
>> It's the difference of switching two valves instead of one when you switch
>> tanks in normal operations. Sure, it's more complex than a single knob,
>> but I'm used to much more complicated fuel systems many of which require
>> deliberate knowledge of the fuel return tank. I'm not really concerned
>> about it either way. The only reason to want to transfer fuel would be a
>> leak, and in most situations, getting on the ground quickly makes a lot
>> more sense than moving fuel around. Since I won't have to worry about the
>> insane complexity of a mixture control, I can use those saved neurons to
>> handle the fuel return tank if I wind up with two valves.
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Carl Froehlich <
>> carl.froehlich@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Berck,
>>>
>>> I added a 1/4" purge line return to the left tank when building in case I
>>> ended up with an AFP injection system (photo attached). This is the same
>>> location I used the RV-8A which had AFP injection.
>>>
>>> Adding a return line is straight forward and if you get the fitting in
>>> about
>>> the same area as the vent line connection you should not have an issue.
>>> I'd
>>> keep it high (like my photo) so that it is away from the fuel pick up -
>>> should help with pulling cooler fuel into the engine as compared to the
>>> hotter return fuel.
>>>
>>> Just curious - how much did this EFII system cost?
>>>
>>> Carl
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Berck E. Nash
>>> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 12:44 AM
>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Return Line Location?
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm leaning toward a duplex valve, but I'm also considering two fuel
>>> valves,
>>> one for the source and one for the return. This isn't that different
>>> than
>>> jets I've flown, and I think I can handle the "complexity". It's cheaper
>>> and it gives the advantage of being able to transfer fuel, which might
>>> come
>>> in handy. Regardless, none of the answers so far tell me where to tap
>>> the
>>> return line:)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> *
>>
>> D============================================
>> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List>
>> D============================================
>> //forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>> D============================================
>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>> D============================================
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
Message 9
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|
| Subject: | Fuel Return Line Location? |
WRT auto fuel, while the injection system may be ok with it the rest of
the system is problematic if you are unable to get ethanol free premium
unleaded. If you can get this fuel the IO-540 D4A5 is already approved
for its use.
Years ago a =9CEFII like=9D company wanted to use my RV-8A
as a beta for their single lever electronic fuel injection system.
After a lot of research it became obvious that how I wanted to run the
plane (LOP to my set point) was not possible =93 I would have only
whatever the software wanted me to have for mixture. That and they
wanted a boat load of cash for the system and my testing/fixing time for
free killed any interest I had.
Perhaps this EFII product has advanced from that of my experience. On
the ignition side, I=99ll be bolting on the new 200 series P-mags
in June (I hope). I have a lot of hours with P-mags on the RV-8A and
they have performed flawlessly.
Any ballpark number on what this system will cost?
Carl
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Berck E. Nash
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Return Line Location?
Since the fuel is metered directly at the injectors by the ECU, why do
you have to mess with the mixture knob? The EFII website says,
"Automatic mixture control (no mixture knob to fool with)", but you're
saying that's not entirely true? Is the issue that you're compensating
for a lack of initial ECU programming by altering the fuel pressure
until the you get the programming dialed in? Since the system has a MAP
and IAT sensor, it seems like it should be able to meter correctly
without any input from the pilot. It doesn't look like the EFII
includes an oxygen sensor, though?
Any idea if there are plans to fly this plane on automotive gasoline?
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com>
wrote:
I think you're kidding yourself if you think there is no mixture to
worry about. I spend more time on the mixture knob so far than I do on
the mixture control with a standard system. It's possible that once you
get things all tuned up the way you want them you may not use it as
much, but I really don't use it that much on a standard system either. I
lean a little as I climb, then I set power, rpm and fuel flow for
cruise.
I would imagine if you are burnin 12gph, you are probably returning at
least that much to the tank, if not more. I wouldn't want to have to
mess with picking a return tank separate from a feed tank. There are
warnings when your fuel in a tank gets low, but I don't know of a
warning saying your tank is getting too full. If you get busy or get
bored and aren't managing fuel with a normal system, you will get
something yelling at you saying you're getting into the red on the draw
tank, but it won't happen if you start to pump it overboard through the
return tank vent.
I agree that electric ignition is tried and true in cars, but so far
there are a total of 10 fleet hours in the RV-10 with a full EFII system
and thousands and thousands with mags and standard fuel injection. Far
from a no-brainier in my book unless you are talking the other way
around.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse@saintaviation.com
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 20, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Berck E. Nash <flyboy@gmail.com> wrote:
Carl- thanks so much for the picture. I'll plan on the same location.
As for the cost: We haven't purchased anything yet, and probably won't
until we source an engine. Hoping available systems will only get
cheaper, but cursory research indicates it'll cost not much more than
more conventional FI and ignition setups.
Jesse- Thanks for the heads up. Glad to hear that one is flying
already, and I hope you'll keep us updated of any gotchas. After seeing
that an EFII system is available, I can't imagine not using it. I'm
aware of the need for a fully redundant electrical system and dual
ECU's. I was already planning on dual electronic ignition and the dual
alternators that necessitates, so electronic fuel injection only makes
sense to me. This is, I think, the beauty of building an experimental--
the ability to use "modern" (30-year-old tried-and-tested) technology in
an airplane, instead of being forced to rely on a fuel delivery system
from the 1950's.
Any RV-10 specific EFII links, information, vendor tips, etc, would be
greatly appreciated.
As for the "complexity" of a fuel return tank selection, it seems a bit
silly to me that choosing a return tank is considered "overly complex."
It's the difference of switching two valves instead of one when you
switch tanks in normal operations. Sure, it's more complex than a
single knob, but I'm used to much more complicated fuel systems many of
which require deliberate knowledge of the fuel return tank. I'm not
really concerned about it either way. The only reason to want to
transfer fuel would be a leak, and in most situations, getting on the
ground quickly makes a lot more sense than moving fuel around. Since I
won't have to worry about the insane complexity of a mixture control, I
can use those saved neurons to handle the fuel return tank if I wind up
with two valves.
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Carl Froehlich
<carl.froehlich@verizon.net> wrote:
Berck,
I added a 1/4" purge line return to the left tank when building in case
I
ended up with an AFP injection system (photo attached). This is the
same
location I used the RV-8A which had AFP injection.
Adding a return line is straight forward and if you get the fitting in
about
the same area as the vent line connection you should not have an issue.
I'd
keep it high (like my photo) so that it is away from the fuel pick up -
should help with pulling cooler fuel into the engine as compared to the
hotter return fuel.
Just curious - how much did this EFII system cost?
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Berck E. Nash
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Return Line Location?
I'm leaning toward a duplex valve, but I'm also considering two fuel
valves,
one for the source and one for the return. This isn't that different
than
jets I've flown, and I think I can handle the "complexity". It's
cheaper
and it gives the advantage of being able to transfer fuel, which might
come
in handy. Regardless, none of the answers so far tell me where to tap
the
return line:)
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
//forums.matronics.com
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 10
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Return Line Location? |
Right, but there are still mixture settings that differ for different cruise
powers and economy versus high speed cruise, just like any engine.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse@saintaviation.com
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 20, 2015, at 1:14 PM, Berck E. Nash <flyboy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Oh, I just realized you meant the EFII-supplied mixture knob... Which mea
ns that programming a solid fuel hands-off fuel map takes some time?
>
>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Berck E. Nash <flyboy@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Since the fuel is metered directly at the injectors by the ECU, why do yo
u have to mess with the mixture knob? The EFII website says, "Automatic mix
ture control (no mixture knob to fool with)", but you're saying that's not e
ntirely true? Is the issue that you're compensating for a lack of initial E
CU programming by altering the fuel pressure until the you get the programmi
ng dialed in? Since the system has a MAP and IAT sensor, it seems like it s
hould be able to meter correctly without any input from the pilot. It doesn
't look like the EFII includes an oxygen sensor, though?
>>
>> Any idea if there are plans to fly this plane on automotive gasoline?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com> w
rote:
>>> I think you're kidding yourself if you think there is no mixture to worr
y about. I spend more time on the mixture knob so far than I do on the mixtu
re control with a standard system. It's possible that once you get things al
l tuned up the way you want them you may not use it as much, but I really do
n't use it that much on a standard system either. I lean a little as I climb
, then I set power, rpm and fuel flow for cruise.
>>>
>>> I would imagine if you are burnin 12gph, you are probably returning at l
east that much to the tank, if not more. I wouldn't want to have to mess wit
h picking a return tank separate from a feed tank. There are warnings when y
our fuel in a tank gets low, but I don't know of a warning saying your tank i
s getting too full. If you get busy or get bored and aren't managing fuel wi
th a normal system, you will get something yelling at you saying you're gett
ing into the red on the draw tank, but it won't happen if you start to pump i
t overboard through the return tank vent.
>>>
>>> I agree that electric ignition is tried and true in cars, but so far the
re are a total of 10 fleet hours in the RV-10 with a full EFII system and th
ousands and thousands with mags and standard fuel injection. Far from a no-b
rainier in my book unless you are talking the other way around.
>>>
>>> Jesse Saint
>>> Saint Aviation, Inc.
>>> 352-427-0285
>>> jesse@saintaviation.com
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>>> On Apr 20, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Berck E. Nash <flyboy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Carl- thanks so much for the picture. I'll plan on the same location.
As for the cost: We haven't purchased anything yet, and probably won't unti
l we source an engine. Hoping available systems will only get cheaper, but c
ursory research indicates it'll cost not much more than more conventional FI
and ignition setups.
>>>>
>>>> Jesse- Thanks for the heads up. Glad to hear that one is flying alread
y, and I hope you'll keep us updated of any gotchas. After seeing that an EFI
I system is available, I can't imagine not using it. I'm aware of the need f
or a fully redundant electrical system and dual ECU's. I was already plannin
g on dual electronic ignition and the dual alternators that necessitates, so
electronic fuel injection only makes sense to me. This is, I think, the be
auty of building an experimental-- the ability to use "modern" (30-year-old t
ried-and-tested) technology in an airplane, instead of being forced to rely o
n a fuel delivery system from the 1950's.
>>>>
>>>> Any RV-10 specific EFII links, information, vendor tips, etc, would be g
reatly appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> As for the "complexity" of a fuel return tank selection, it seems a bit
silly to me that choosing a return tank is considered "overly complex." It
's the difference of switching two valves instead of one when you switch tan
ks in normal operations. Sure, it's more complex than a single knob, but I'
m used to much more complicated fuel systems many of which require deliberat
e knowledge of the fuel return tank. I'm not really concerned about it eith
er way. The only reason to want to transfer fuel would be a leak, and in mo
st situations, getting on the ground quickly makes a lot more sense than mov
ing fuel around. Since I won't have to worry about the insane complexity of
a mixture control, I can use those saved neurons to handle the fuel return t
ank if I wind up with two valves.
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich@verizo
n.net> wrote:
>>>>> Berck,
>>>>>
>>>>> I added a 1/4" purge line return to the left tank when building in cas
e I
>>>>> ended up with an AFP injection system (photo attached). This is the s
ame
>>>>> location I used the RV-8A which had AFP injection.
>>>>>
>>>>> Adding a return line is straight forward and if you get the fitting in
about
>>>>> the same area as the vent line connection you should not have an issue
. I'd
>>>>> keep it high (like my photo) so that it is away from the fuel pick up -
>>>>> should help with pulling cooler fuel into the engine as compared to th
e
>>>>> hotter return fuel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just curious - how much did this EFII system cost?
>>>>>
>>>>> Carl
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>>>>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Berck E. Na
sh
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 12:44 AM
>>>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Return Line Location?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm leaning toward a duplex valve, but I'm also considering two fuel v
alves,
>>>>> one for the source and one for the return. This isn't that different t
han
>>>>> jets I've flown, and I think I can handle the "complexity". It's chea
per
>>>>> and it gives the advantage of being able to transfer fuel, which might
come
>>>>> in handy. Regardless, none of the answers so far tell me where to tap
the
>>>>> return line:)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D
>>>> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D
>>>> //forums.matronics.com
>>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D
>>>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Return Line Location? |
I assume you are aware that leaded fuel such as 100LL will destroy an
oxygen sensor in less than one tank of fuel?
I seriously doubt that the EFII system and the dual everything required
to ensure it has power to work will save enough fuel to have a payback
in any reasonable time frame. Mixture management on conventional fuel
injection with magnetos is childs play once you get the system
delivering equal fuel mixture to each cylinder. While autos are using
less gas and producing more power, they are doing it with higher
compression ratios, knock sensors and thousands of hours of dyno time.
Most of the incremental benefit comes from electronic ignition, not
electronic timed fuel injection. Feel free to experiment, but don't
expect to get equal power on half the gas, or half the workload, for
equal investment.
On 4/20/2015 9:55 AM, Berck E. Nash wrote:
> Since the fuel is metered directly at the injectors by the ECU, why do
> you have to mess with the mixture knob? The EFII website says,
> "Automatic mixture control (no mixture knob to fool with)", but you're
> saying that's not entirely true? Is the issue that you're
> compensating for a lack of initial ECU programming by altering the
> fuel pressure until the you get the programming dialed in? Since the
> system has a MAP and IAT sensor, it seems like it should be able to
> meter correctly without any input from the pilot. It doesn't look
> like the EFII includes an oxygen sensor, though?
>
> Any idea if there are plans to fly this plane on automotive gasoline?
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com
> <mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com>> wrote:
>
> I think you're kidding yourself if you think there is no mixture
> to worry about. I spend more time on the mixture knob so far than
> I do on the mixture control with a standard system. It's possible
> that once you get things all tuned up the way you want them you
> may not use it as much, but I really don't use it that much on a
> standard system either. I lean a little as I climb, then I set
> power, rpm and fuel flow for cruise.
>
> I would imagine if you are burnin 12gph, you are probably
> returning at least that much to the tank, if not more. I wouldn't
> want to have to mess with picking a return tank separate from a
> feed tank. There are warnings when your fuel in a tank gets low,
> but I don't know of a warning saying your tank is getting too
> full. If you get busy or get bored and aren't managing fuel with a
> normal system, you will get something yelling at you saying you're
> getting into the red on the draw tank, but it won't happen if you
> start to pump it overboard through the return tank vent.
>
> I agree that electric ignition is tried and true in cars, but so
> far there are a total of 10 fleet hours in the RV-10 with a full
> EFII system and thousands and thousands with mags and standard
> fuel injection. Far from a no-brainier in my book unless you are
> talking the other way around.
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> 352-427-0285 <tel:352-427-0285>
> jesse@saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse@saintaviation.com>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Apr 20, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Berck E. Nash <flyboy@gmail.com
> <mailto:flyboy@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Carl- thanks so much for the picture. I'll plan on the same
>> location. As for the cost: We haven't purchased anything yet,
>> and probably won't until we source an engine. Hoping available
>> systems will only get cheaper, but cursory research indicates
>> it'll cost not much more than more conventional FI and ignition
>> setups.
>>
>> Jesse- Thanks for the heads up. Glad to hear that one is flying
>> already, and I hope you'll keep us updated of any gotchas. After
>> seeing that an EFII system is available, I can't imagine not
>> using it. I'm aware of the need for a fully redundant electrical
>> system and dual ECU's. I was already planning on dual electronic
>> ignition and the dual alternators that necessitates, so
>> electronic fuel injection only makes sense to me. This is, I
>> think, the beauty of building an experimental-- the ability to
>> use "modern" (30-year-old tried-and-tested) technology in an
>> airplane, instead of being forced to rely on a fuel delivery
>> system from the 1950's.
>>
>> Any RV-10 specific EFII links, information, vendor tips, etc,
>> would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> As for the "complexity" of a fuel return tank selection, it seems
>> a bit silly to me that choosing a return tank is considered
>> "overly complex." It's the difference of switching two valves
>> instead of one when you switch tanks in normal operations. Sure,
>> it's more complex than a single knob, but I'm used to much more
>> complicated fuel systems many of which require deliberate
>> knowledge of the fuel return tank. I'm not really concerned
>> about it either way. The only reason to want to transfer fuel
>> would be a leak, and in most situations, getting on the ground
>> quickly makes a lot more sense than moving fuel around. Since I
>> won't have to worry about the insane complexity of a mixture
>> control, I can use those saved neurons to handle the fuel return
>> tank if I wind up with two valves.
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Carl Froehlich
>> <carl.froehlich@verizon.net <mailto:carl.froehlich@verizon.net>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Berck,
>>
>> I added a 1/4" purge line return to the left tank when
>> building in case I
>> ended up with an AFP injection system (photo attached). This
>> is the same
>> location I used the RV-8A which had AFP injection.
>>
>> Adding a return line is straight forward and if you get the
>> fitting in about
>> the same area as the vent line connection you should not have
>> an issue. I'd
>> keep it high (like my photo) so that it is away from the fuel
>> pick up -
>> should help with pulling cooler fuel into the engine as
>> compared to the
>> hotter return fuel.
>>
>> Just curious - how much did this EFII system cost?
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>
>> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
>> <mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of
>> Berck E. Nash
>> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 12:44 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv10-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Return Line Location?
>>
>> <flyboy@gmail.com <mailto:flyboy@gmail.com>>
>>
>> I'm leaning toward a duplex valve, but I'm also considering
>> two fuel valves,
>> one for the source and one for the return. This isn't that
>> different than
>> jets I've flown, and I think I can handle the "complexity".
>> It's cheaper
>> and it gives the advantage of being able to transfer fuel,
>> which might come
>> in handy. Regardless, none of the answers so far tell me
>> where to tap the
>> return line:)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> D============================================
>> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> D============================================
>> //forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>> D============================================
>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> D============================================
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Return Line Location? |
I purchased the dual ecu 4cyl system for $5970 with shipping.
> On Apr 20, 2015, at 09:37, Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich@verizon.net> wro
te:
>
> WRT auto fuel, while the injection system may be ok with it the rest of th
e system is problematic if you are unable to get ethanol free premium unlead
ed. If you can get this fuel the IO-540 D4A5 is already approved for its us
e.
>
> Years ago a =9CEFII like=9D company wanted to use my RV-8A as a
beta for their single lever electronic fuel injection system. After a lot o
f research it became obvious that how I wanted to run the plane (LOP to my s
et point) was not possible =93 I would have only whatever the software
wanted me to have for mixture. That and they wanted a boat load of cash fo
r the system and my testing/fixing time for free killed any interest I had.
>
> Perhaps this EFII product has advanced from that of my experience. On the
ignition side, I=99ll be bolting on the new 200 series P-mags in June
(I hope). I have a lot of hours with P-mags on the RV-8A and they have per
formed flawlessly.
>
> Any ballpark number on what this system will cost?
>
> Carl
>
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of Berck E. Nash
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 12:55 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Return Line Location?
>
> Since the fuel is metered directly at the injectors by the ECU, why do you
have to mess with the mixture knob? The EFII website says, "Automatic mixt
ure control (no mixture knob to fool with)", but you're saying that's not en
tirely true? Is the issue that you're compensating for a lack of initial EC
U programming by altering the fuel pressure until the you get the programmin
g dialed in? Since the system has a MAP and IAT sensor, it seems like it sh
ould be able to meter correctly without any input from the pilot. It doesn'
t look like the EFII includes an oxygen sensor, though?
>
> Any idea if there are plans to fly this plane on automotive gasoline?
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse@saintaviation.com> wr
ote:
> I think you're kidding yourself if you think there is no mixture to worry a
bout. I spend more time on the mixture knob so far than I do on the mixture c
ontrol with a standard system. It's possible that once you get things all tu
ned up the way you want them you may not use it as much, but I really don't u
se it that much on a standard system either. I lean a little as I climb, the
n I set power, rpm and fuel flow for cruise.
>
> I would imagine if you are burnin 12gph, you are probably returning at lea
st that much to the tank, if not more. I wouldn't want to have to mess with p
icking a return tank separate from a feed tank. There are warnings when your
fuel in a tank gets low, but I don't know of a warning saying your tank is g
etting too full. If you get busy or get bored and aren't managing fuel with a
normal system, you will get something yelling at you saying you're getting i
nto the red on the draw tank, but it won't happen if you start to pump it ov
erboard through the return tank vent.
>
> I agree that electric ignition is tried and true in cars, but so far there
are a total of 10 fleet hours in the RV-10 with a full EFII system and thou
sands and thousands with mags and standard fuel injection. Far from a no-bra
inier in my book unless you are talking the other way around.
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> 352-427-0285
> jesse@saintaviation.com
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Apr 20, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Berck E. Nash <flyboy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Carl- thanks so much for the picture. I'll plan on the same location. As
for the cost: We haven't purchased anything yet, and probably won't until w
e source an engine. Hoping available systems will only get cheaper, but cur
sory research indicates it'll cost not much more than more conventional FI a
nd ignition setups.
>
> Jesse- Thanks for the heads up. Glad to hear that one is flying already, a
nd I hope you'll keep us updated of any gotchas. After seeing that an EFII s
ystem is available, I can't imagine not using it. I'm aware of the need for
a fully redundant electrical system and dual ECU's. I was already planning o
n dual electronic ignition and the dual alternators that necessitates, so el
ectronic fuel injection only makes sense to me. This is, I think, the beaut
y of building an experimental-- the ability to use "modern" (30-year-old tri
ed-and-tested) technology in an airplane, instead of being forced to rely on
a fuel delivery system from the 1950's.
>
> Any RV-10 specific EFII links, information, vendor tips, etc, would be gre
atly appreciated.
>
> As for the "complexity" of a fuel return tank selection, it seems a bit si
lly to me that choosing a return tank is considered "overly complex." It's t
he difference of switching two valves instead of one when you switch tanks i
n normal operations. Sure, it's more complex than a single knob, but I'm us
ed to much more complicated fuel systems many of which require deliberate kn
owledge of the fuel return tank. I'm not really concerned about it either w
ay. The only reason to want to transfer fuel would be a leak, and in most s
ituations, getting on the ground quickly makes a lot more sense than moving f
uel around. Since I won't have to worry about the insane complexity of a mi
xture control, I can use those saved neurons to handle the fuel return tank i
f I wind up with two valves.
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich@verizon.ne
t> wrote:
> Berck,
>
> I added a 1/4" purge line return to the left tank when building in case I
> ended up with an AFP injection system (photo attached). This is the same
> location I used the RV-8A which had AFP injection.
>
> Adding a return line is straight forward and if you get the fitting in abo
ut
> the same area as the vent line connection you should not have an issue. I
'd
> keep it high (like my photo) so that it is away from the fuel pick up -
> should help with pulling cooler fuel into the engine as compared to the
> hotter return fuel.
>
> Just curious - how much did this EFII system cost?
>
> Carl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Berck E. Nash
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 12:44 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Return Line Location?
>
>
> I'm leaning toward a duplex valve, but I'm also considering two fuel valve
s,
> one for the source and one for the return. This isn't that different than
> jets I've flown, and I think I can handle the "complexity". It's cheaper
> and it gives the advantage of being able to transfer fuel, which might com
e
> in handy. Regardless, none of the answers so far tell me where to tap the
> return line:)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> //forums.matronics.com
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>
>
> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Return Line Location? |
Carl, your return line seems to be in the same general vicinity as
these, and they say they have spar interference?
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=122839
How were you able to be sure that yours cleared the spar? Am I just
looking at this wrong?
Berck
Message 14
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| Subject: | Fuel Return Line Location? |
Don't know. I never used the purge return. The fitting is capped off with
an AN cap in the event I ever want to use it. As the plane is flying this
must not have been a problem. Taking the plane down for conditional
inspection next month so I'll look. I do note that the photos from the
Van's Air Force link have the return line further aft than I do. That said,
there is no reason not to place the return line fitting more forward on the
rib to make sure - like just forward of the fuel sender and about center on
the rib. Just make sure you mind the aileron connecting arm.
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Berck E. Nash
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Fuel Return Line Location?
Carl, your return line seems to be in the same general vicinity as these,
and they say they have spar interference?
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=122839
How were you able to be sure that yours cleared the spar? Am I just looking
at this wrong?
Berck
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Fuel Selector was: Fuel Return Line Location? |
Hi Justin,
It sounds like you've put a lot more thought into this than I have. I
didn't think about a high wing. You're correct, a BOTH position shouldn't
be issue.
I'd still be concerned, though, about overfilling a tank. Alarms are great
when they work, but simplicity is better.
The concept of overpressuring a tank with a pump that can put out more than
100 psi is scary to me. Once you overwhelm the vent, what keeps the tank
from rupturing? Fuel tanks typically only handle one or two psi before
they start to deform.
I can practically guarantee you from experience with numerous fuel systems
that if you draw from both and return to both, you will fill one and drain
one. I've seen it happen a few times. The only explanation I can offer is
that I *think* that a small imbalance in vent pressure will bias one tank
enough to allow the levels to become very different. Then you'd be working
to balance things out, at who knows what phase of flight. Yikes.
Thank you for flying those big planes. I'm sure that their designers also
craved simpler systems.
--Dave
On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 9:50 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I understand your concern and welcome any ideas and thoughts that may be
> cause for issues. The issues you brought up have been considered and her
e
> is what I have come up with. Note that I have spoken with many others
> about this as well, but it doesn=99t mean that we aren=99t mi
ssing something.
>
> The normal configuration (covered on the before take-off checklist) would
> be both return valves open and the fuel valve on both. The transfer of fu
el
> during refueling operations (while the aircraft is on floats) is one reas
on
> for this setup, and the other is the ability to draw fuel from both tanks
> simultaneously.
>
> =9CYou could return to a full tank and waste fuel overboard
=9D - This scenario
> could present itself, but would cause an over-pressure situation due to t
he
> vent size. The digital engine monitor senses fuel pressure and sounds an
> audio and visual alarm when it is either too high or too low.
>
> =9CYou could unport an empty tank into =9CBOTH=9D and s
tarve the engine=9D - This
> scenario has also been tested. With one tank empty, one tank full, and th
e
> selector to =9CBOTH=9D, there was still full fuel pressure.
This may be due to
> the high-wing design and the fuel system plumbing called for by Robert
> Paisley of EFII.
>
> =9CYou could turn off both return valves and I don
=99t know what, but it
> seems bad=9D - It would cause the fuel to back up at the valves, an
d the fuel
> pressure would increase to the maximum that the GL393 fuel pump would put
> out. This would be 105 PSI at 10 Gallons per hour. Not sustainable, but
> not harmful to the injectors or fuel lines for short periods of time.
> Again, the Engine Monitor will alarm when the fuel pressure begins to
> increase. The fuel system has been tested to the fuel pump stall pressur
e
> of 115 PSI and found to have no leaks.
>
> I fly C-130s and King Air 200s and they both have fuel systems that are
> far more complicated. Flying aircraft will always require thought. With
> the duplex fuel valve, the pilot must remember to switch the fuel valves
> when it is necessary. I like the idea of being able to operate in a norm
al
> scenario with the fuel valve on both, and have the fuel is return to both
> tanks. If the situation arises, I can put the fuel where it is needed an
d
> I have a good monitoring system that will alert me if I make a mistake in
> the positioning of fuel valves. The return valves do not have a position
> that will cause the engine to quit turning.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Justin
>
>
> On Apr 19, 2015, at 7:30 PM, David Saylor <saylor.dave@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Justin,
>
> You are of course free to build whatever fuel system you like, but the on
e
> you described has some issues.
>
> I think you'd be better off with a L-R-OFF duplex fuel valve that routes
> return fuel to the same tank you're burning from. You're headed towards
a
> scenario that makes it pretty easy to mismanage the fuel:
>
> You could return to a full tank and waste fuel overboard;
>
> You could unport an empty tank in "BOTH" and starve the engine;
>
> You could turn off both return valves and...I don't know what, but it
> seems bad.
>
> Please consider a simpler system. Caution never goes as far as we think
> it will.
>
> --Dave
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 8:00 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com
>
> wrote:
>
m
>> >
>>
>> Berck,
>>
>> I am using an EFII system as well. Just a thought, but I put a normal
>> L/R/Both/Off fuel valve on the supply side (AN6) and an AN6 size return
>> line that Splits to each tank. After the "T" I put a simple Parker
>> petroleum 1/4 turn ball valve on each side just before the tank. Now, I
can
>> shut one or the other return valves off, turn on the fuel pump, and
>> transfer fuel on the ground. It can also be done in the air (with cautio
n
>> of course) to trim fuel.
>>
>> Note: I'm building a Bushcaddy not an rv10.
>>
>> I can send pics if you would like.
>>
>> Justin
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 19, 2015, at 18:10, Berck E. Nash <flyboy@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > We're planning on EFII, so we need a full-sized return line for both
>> > sides. Just now starting work on the fuel tank, and I'd like to get
>> > this sorted before we get too far. I've spent awhile searching, and
>> > have only managed to find lots of places not to put the port for the
>> > fuel return line. Apparently it can interfere with both the wing spar
>> > and the aileron return line. Does anyone have a clear diagram of wher
e
>> > I can safely put it? A hint about which flange/fittings to buy would b
e
>> > greatly appreciated as well. Thanks in advance!
>> >
>> > Berck
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
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>>
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