---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/05/15: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:58 AM - Re: How long does your annual take? (Werner Schneider) 2. 07:24 AM - Re: Filter Air Box (Lenny Iszak) 3. 08:22 AM - Re: How long does your annual take? (Ben Westfall) 4. 08:45 AM - Re: Filter Air Box (Bill Watson) 5. 01:46 PM - Re: Filter Air Box (Bill Watson) 6. 07:23 PM - EFII - the jury is coming in (Jesse Saint) 7. 07:55 PM - Re: EFII - the jury is coming in (Danny Riggs) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:58:15 AM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: RV10-List: How long does your annual take? Jesse, seems you're using your kids like others swap wrenches from one job to the other :) Cheers Werner do not archive On 05.05.2015 00:21, Jesse Saint wrote: > I put my 12-year-old to work one day per week already. He's perfect for > opening panels and for crawling in the tailcones for inspection, > lubrication and fabrication. I've even used my 8-year-old a few times. > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:30 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Filter Air Box From: "Lenny Iszak" I built a tight fiberglass lip around the bottom that covers the bottom rubber part, around a 1/4 inch tall, so the filter doesn't move around much. When the filter is new it fits perfectly, and after about 50 hours it shrinks both in height and circumference. So if you are still building make sure that it fits tight at least in height because it shrinks over time. I got a new filter thinking oh well the other one was already a few years old, just sitting there. The new one also shrank in 50 or so hours. Looks like I also need to add a plate to the bottom. The problem I see with Epoxy, not sure about proseal, that it will have a hard time sticking to the already fuel/oil soaked fiberglass. If that piece of aluminum gets unglued, it will rub a hole real quick through the fiberglass bottom. I'm thinking rivets with washers under the shop head (on the outside) would work better than glue. Lenny Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441746#441746 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:22:04 AM PST US From: "Ben Westfall" Subject: RE: RV10-List: How long does your annual take? And he's well stocked for years to come!! :-) do not archive -Ben -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Werner Schneider Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2015 12:55 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: How long does your annual take? Jesse, seems you're using your kids like others swap wrenches from one job to the other :) Cheers Werner do not archive On 05.05.2015 00:21, Jesse Saint wrote: > I put my 12-year-old to work one day per week already. He's perfect > for opening panels and for crawling in the tailcones for inspection, > lubrication and fabrication. I've even used my 8-year-old a few times. > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:16 AM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filter Air Box You can possibly 'bow it back' into a tight fit by applying heat and pressure to the FG housing. A heat gun will do it. On 5/4/2015 9:08 AM, Vernon Franklin wrote: > I finished the FAB this weekend, and after it was all said and done, I > have about a 3/32" gap between the air filter seal and the fiberglass > housing. I think the fiberglass bowed out a little after I finished > riveting. > > Options I am thinking about: > 1) A bead of RTV around the circumference of the filter. > 2) Use aluminum and try to build up some kind of lip around the air > filter > 3) Live with it as is > > Any ideas or recommendations? > > > -- > Vernon Franklin > * > > > * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:18 PM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Filter Air Box I was late to the party... will be re-inspecting my FAB at the next de-cowling. On 5/5/2015 11:42 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > You can possibly 'bow it back' into a tight fit by applying heat and > pressure to the FG housing. A heat gun will do it. > > On 5/4/2015 9:08 AM, Vernon Franklin wrote: >> I finished the FAB this weekend, and after it was all said and done, >> I have about a 3/32" gap between the air filter seal and the >> fiberglass housing. I think the fiberglass bowed out a little after >> I finished riveting. >> >> Options I am thinking about: >> 1) A bead of RTV around the circumference of the filter. >> 2) Use aluminum and try to build up some kind of lip around the air >> filter >> 3) Live with it as is >> >> Any ideas or recommendations? >> >> >> >> -- >> Vernon Franklin >> * >> >> >> * >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> 05/04/15 >> > > * > > > * > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:52 PM PST US From: Jesse Saint Subject: RV10-List: EFII - the jury is coming in Well, I think it's about time that I post a few of my experiences with the EFII system (dual ignition and injection) in the RV-10. I do believe N930M is the first RV-10, and possibly the first 6-cylinder engine, to be flying with the full EFII system. I now have 20 hours in it and feel like I should share my experiences and thoughts on it. I have talked to several people who have shown interest or who are planning to install it in their -10's, so this is mainly for those people, or those who may be on the fence. First of all, it is a system that required, IMHO, a fair bit more planning than a standard engine with mags and mechanical fuel injection. Even with electronic ignition on one or both sides. I have had a few misgivings of flying -10's with dual lightspeeds, but that didn't last very long. I am actually very much looking forward to flying with the P-mag if/when they ever actually start delivering them. With dual electronic ignition and electronic injection, though, it mecomes much more serious. You really should have dual batteries, at at least dual contactors, if not full dual busses. You really should have dual alternators, or at least it's a very good idea. You need dual fuel pumps because there is no engine-driven pump. if any of these systems aren't redundant and the only one fails, you either are immediately a glider or shortly will be. I know that the battery can keep you going for a while if the alternator fails, but I'm not about to test how long that is. I also think it's very important to have dual ECU's, one controlling each ignition and each can separately control the injection system. I know this becomes a fairly expensive system, but just think, at least it's only 30-year-old technology instead of 80-year-old technology. To be perfectly honest, it took several weeks after first engine run for me to get up the nerve to climb in and go flying. I was very careful to stay within gliding distance of the runway for the first several hours. I just didn't fully understand all that was going on (still don't) and was nervous about being the test pilot for a new system. I have done first flights before, but never with a system that had never flown in this configuration before (at least that I am aware of). The setup was, honestly, a little disappointing. Rob has been fairly available, usually with a call back after leaving a voicemail. I know this system has run on a test stand on more than one occasion, and honestly there were a TON of settings that I had to put in from a spreadsheet that should have been put in at the factory. It was not a mystery that this was going in a -10, so the 300 pages of settings should have been preset. After getting them going and doing the ground testing to setup more accurate fuel mapping, I got to the point where I was willing to take to the skies. Most of the above has been fairly negative, but I think a lot of it is plowing new ground and the time we have spent on this one should help others down the road. I now have 19.8 hours on the system, and it has not missed a single beat in flight. There have been some issues in starting and things like that, but we are figuring out what works. I have not taken the time to tweak all of the fuel maps and settings, but we have things mostly setup and I have been very impressed with the way it has operated so far. Up until the last few hours, I have still told people, "the jury is still out," but I am getting much closer to a verdict now. It took this long for me to get to the point of saying, "I would climb in and fly it to the Bahamas," or "I would feel comfortable putting my kids in it and flying to Kansas." Some things different about the system and the way the engine runs are the following: 1. I can run this engine as low as 400 rpm and it is smooth. I have never run an IO-540 lower than 750-850 rpm because it shakes and shudders. It must be a combination of the variable timing and the fact that the fuel is electronically injected into the intakes for each cylinder, so at low rpm all cylinders are still getting the right amount of fuel. 2. I have done some extensive leaning in flight and have yet to get to the point where the engine stumbles or starts to miss. This is probably related to the same as #1, but it can run amazingly lean in flight and still run smooth. Yes, at a point you start loosing enough power that you give up a lot of speed, but I truly don't think I have seen fuel flows as low in a standard -540 as I have seen in this one, at the same MAP and RPM settings. 3. There truly is no such thing as a hot start issue. I know, you can tell me until you are blue in the face that you have a perfect system that works every time and you never have a problem with hot starts. I have flown probably 20 different RV-10's and many more than that different fuel injected engines, and the hot start is more difficult than a cold start. I have a system that works most of the time, but I have yet to see a system that consistently requires no more cranking than a cold start. The EFII starts hot exactly the same as it starts cold, if not a little better. Since so much fuel is being pumped back to the tank, any time your master is on you have cool fuel in the system. 4. While you can use the mixture knob (potentiometer mounted on the panel) to adjust your AFR (Air Fuel Ratio), there is truly much less mixture adjustment as altitude changes as long as power setting doesn't. I know I have said recently, "if you think you won't be touching the mixture control, you are mistaken," or something along those lines. However, as you get things setup more, once you get setup in cruise with your MAP, RPM and AFR where you want them, you really can fly the rest of your flight that way...INCLUDING THE DESCENT. This is something that really stands out to me. Let's say I am flying along at 12,500 feet at 18" MAP, 2,300 RPM and AFR of 16.7. I can descend to pattern altitude with nothing to touch except the throttle knob. The governor keeps the prop at 2,300 RPM and the EFII keeps the AFR at 16.7 (more or less, but close). With a standard injection system, I have to keep adding mixture the whole way down. I usually find myself going to the rich side of peak as I descend simply so I don't have to adjust the mixture as often. When I see the EGT's start to climb towards peak, I richen up a bit more. If I don't do this and I don't stay on it, I end up getting so lean that the plane really accelerates when I add mixture. With the EFII, you really don't have to touch anything until you are on final, when you are preparing the mixture knob and the prop control for a go-around if you need one. Final thoughts: 1. Would I recommend the EFII system to other people building RV-10's? That depends. Some people just want to fly. They want to climb in and go somewhere and not have to think about it. For them I would say, go with mags and a Bendix, Silverhawk or AFP injection system and enjoy. For those who want to do the tweaking and testing to get a little better performance or better economy, then this just might be the system for you. 2. Doesn't useable fuel decrease because you are dumping so much fuel back in the tank and could start sucking air at a higher fuel level? I burned a tank down until I saw 0 on the Dynon and it took 29.5 gallons to fill back up. I didn't wait until it missed, but it was running solid up to that point. I doubt there is more than a quart of difference in useable fuel, if that much. 3. Would I put my wife and/or children in it? I have already answered this, but the true answer is, "not all of them at the same time." :) There are too many of them. Yes, I would put my loved ones in it. 4. Does it truly perform better than a standard system? Honestly, I don't know, but it sure seems like it does. Without quoting a lot of numbers and comparing, I think it does perform a little better, and I have not gotten very deep at all into the tweaking to make it even better yet. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. 352-427-0285 jesse@saintaviation.com Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:38 PM PST US From: Danny Riggs Subject: RE: RV10-List: EFII - the jury is coming in VGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgaG9uZXN0IGFuZCBpbnRlcmVzdGluZyBhbnN3ZXIuIE5vdCB3aGF0IEkg d2FzIHJlYWxseSBleHBlY3RpbmcgZnJvbSB5b3VyIHByZXZpb3VzIHBvc3RzIfCfmIMNCldoYXQg SSdkIHJlYWxseSBsaWtlIHRvIGtub3cgaXMgaWYgdGhlcmUgaXMgYW55IGZ1ZWwgc2F2aW5ncyBv dmVyIHNheSBhIEJlbmRpeCBGSS4gSXQgd291bGQgc2VlbSB0aGF0IHRoZSBmdWVsIGVmZmljaWVu Y3kgaW4gY2xpbWIgYW5kIGRlc2NlbnQgbWlnaHQgc2F2ZSBhcyBtdWNoIGFzIGEgaGFsZiB0byBv bmUgZ2FsbG9uIHBlciBob3VyLiAgQW55IHRob3VnaHRzPz8NCg0KDQo+IEZyb206IGplc3NlQHNh aW50YXZpYXRpb24uY29tDQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJWMTAtTGlzdDogRUZJSSAtIHRoZSBqdXJ5IGlz IGNvbWluZyBpbg0KPiBEYXRlOiBUdWUsIDUgTWF5IDIwMTUgMjI6MjA6MTAgLTA0MDANCj4gVG86 IHJ2MTAtbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tDQo+IA0KPiAtLT4gUlYxMC1MaXN0IG1lc3NhZ2UgcG9z dGVkIGJ5OiBKZXNzZSBTYWludCA8amVzc2VAc2FpbnRhdmlhdGlvbi5jb20+DQo+IA0KPiBXZWxs LCBJIHRoaW5rIGl0J3MgYWJvdXQgdGltZSB0aGF0IEkgcG9zdCBhIGZldyBvZiBteSBleHBlcmll bmNlcyB3aXRoIHRoZSBFRklJIHN5c3RlbSAoZHVhbCBpZ25pdGlvbiBhbmQgaW5qZWN0aW9uKSBp biB0aGUgUlYtMTAuIEkgZG8gYmVsaWV2ZSBOOTMwTSBpcyB0aGUgZmlyc3QgUlYtMTAsIGFuZCBw b3NzaWJseSB0aGUgZmlyc3QgNi1jeWxpbmRlciBlbmdpbmUsIHRvIGJlIGZseWluZyB3aXRoIHRo ZSBmdWxsIEVGSUkgc3lzdGVtLiBJIG5vdyBoYXZlIDIwIGhvdXJzIGluIGl0IGFuZCBmZWVsIGxp a2UgSSBzaG91bGQgc2hhcmUgbXkgZXhwZXJpZW5jZXMgYW5kIHRob3VnaHRzIG9uIGl0LiBJIGhh dmUgdGFsa2VkIHRvIHNldmVyYWwgcGVvcGxlIHdobyBoYXZlIHNob3duIGludGVyZXN0IG9yIHdo byBhcmUgcGxhbm5pbmcgdG8gaW5zdGFsbCBpdCBpbiB0aGVpciAtMTAncywgc28gdGhpcyBpcyBt YWlubHkgZm9yIHRob3NlIHBlb3BsZSwgb3IgdGhvc2Ugd2hvIG1heSBiZSBvbiB0aGUgZmVuY2Uu DQo+IA0KPiBGaXJzdCBvZiBhbGwsIGl0IGlzIGEgc3lzdGVtIHRoYXQgcmVxdWlyZWQsIElNSE8s IGEgZmFpciBiaXQgbW9yZSBwbGFubmluZyB0aGFuIGEgc3RhbmRhcmQgZW5naW5lIHdpdGggbWFn cyBhbmQgbWVjaGFuaWNhbCBmdWVsIGluamVjdGlvbi4gRXZlbiB3aXRoIGVsZWN0cm9uaWMgaWdu aXRpb24gb24gb25lIG9yIGJvdGggc2lkZXMuIEkgaGF2ZSBoYWQgYSBmZXcgbWlzZ2l2aW5ncyBv ZiBmbHlpbmcgLTEwJ3Mgd2l0aCBkdWFsIGxpZ2h0c3BlZWRzLCBidXQgdGhhdCBkaWRuJ3QgbGFz dCB2ZXJ5IGxvbmcuIEkgYW0gYWN0dWFsbHkgdmVyeSBtdWNoIGxvb2tpbmcgZm9yd2FyZCB0byBm bHlpbmcgd2l0aCB0aGUgUC1tYWcgaWYvd2hlbiB0aGV5IGV2ZXIgYWN0dWFsbHkgc3RhcnQgZGVs aXZlcmluZyB0aGVtLiBXaXRoIGR1YWwgZWxlY3Ryb25pYyBpZ25pdGlvbiBhbmQgZWxlY3Ryb25p YyBpbmplY3Rpb24sIHRob3VnaCwgaXQgbWVjb21lcyBtdWNoIG1vcmUgc2VyaW91cy4gWW91IHJl YWxseSBzaG91bGQgaGF2ZSBkdWFsIGJhdHRlcmllcywgYXQgYXQgbGVhc3QgZHVhbCBjb250YWN0 b3JzLCBpZiBub3QgZnVsbCBkdWFsIGJ1c3Nlcy4gWW91IHJlYWxseSBzaG91bGQgaGF2ZSBkdWFs IGFsdGVybmF0b3JzLCBvciBhdCBsZWFzdCBpdCdzIGEgdmVyeSBnb29kIGlkZWEuIFlvdSBuZWVk IGR1YWwgZnVlbCBwdW1wcyBiZWNhdXNlIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIGVuZ2luZS1kcml2ZW4gcHVtcC4g aWYgYW55IG9mIHRoZXNlIHN5c3RlbXMgYXJlbid0IHJlZHVuZGFudCBhbmQgdGhlIG9ubHkgb25l IGZhaWxzLCB5b3UgZWl0aGVyIGFyZSBpbW1lZGlhdGVseSBhIGdsaWRlciBvciBzaG9ydGx5IHdp bGwgYmUuIEkga25vdyB0aGF0IHRoZSBiYXR0ZXJ5IGNhbiBrZWVwIHlvdSBnb2luZyBmb3IgYSB3 aGlsZSBpZiB0aGUgYWx0ZXJuYXRvciBmYWlscywgYnV0IEknbSBub3QgYWJvdXQgdG8gdGVzdCBo b3cgbG9uZyB0aGF0IGlzLiBJIGFsc28gdGhpbiENCj4gIGsgaXQncyB2ZXJ5IGltcG9ydGFudCB0 byBoYXZlIGR1YWwgRUNVJ3MsIG9uZSBjb250cm9sbGluZyBlYWNoIGlnbml0aW9uIGFuZCBlYWNo IGNhbiBzZXBhcmF0ZWx5IGNvbnRyb2wgdGhlIGluamVjdGlvbiBzeXN0ZW0uIEkga25vdyB0aGlz IGJlY29tZXMgYSBmYWlybHkgZXhwZW5zaXZlIHN5c3RlbSwgYnV0IGp1c3QgdGhpbmssIGF0IGxl YXN0IGl0J3Mgb25seSAzMC15ZWFyLW9sZCB0ZWNobm9sb2d5IGluc3RlYWQgb2YgODAteWVhci1v bGQgdGVjaG5vbG9neS4gDQo+IA0KPiBUbyBiZSBwZXJmZWN0bHkgaG9uZXN0LCBpdCB0b29rIHNl dmVyYWwgd2Vla3MgYWZ0ZXIgZmlyc3QgZW5naW5lIHJ1biBmb3IgbWUgdG8gZ2V0IHVwIHRoZSBu ZXJ2ZSB0byBjbGltYiBpbiBhbmQgZ28gZmx5aW5nLiBJIHdhcyB2ZXJ5IGNhcmVmdWwgdG8gc3Rh eSB3aXRoaW4gZ2xpZGluZyBkaXN0YW5jZSBvZiB0aGUgcnVud2F5IGZvciB0aGUgZmlyc3Qgc2V2 ZXJhbCBob3Vycy4gSSBqdXN0IGRpZG4ndCBmdWxseSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIGFsbCB0aGF0IHdhcyBn b2luZyBvbiAoc3RpbGwgZG9uJ3QpIGFuZCB3YXMgbmVydm91cyBhYm91dCBiZWluZyB0aGUgdGVz dCBwaWxvdCBmb3IgYSBuZXcgc3lzdGVtLiBJIGhhdmUgZG9uZSBmaXJzdCBmbGlnaHRzIGJlZm9y ZSwgYnV0IG5ldmVyIHdpdGggYSBzeXN0ZW0gdGhhdCBoYWQgbmV2ZXIgZmxvd24gaW4gdGhpcyBj b25maWd1cmF0aW9uIGJlZm9yZSAoYXQgbGVhc3QgdGhhdCBJIGFtIGF3YXJlIG9mKS4gDQo+IA0K PiBUaGUgc2V0dXAgd2FzLCBob25lc3RseSwgYSBsaXR0bGUgZGlzYXBwb2ludGluZy4gUm9iIGhh cyBiZWVuIGZhaXJseSBhdmFpbGFibGUsIHVzdWFsbHkgd2l0aCBhIGNhbGwgYmFjayBhZnRlciBs ZWF2aW5nIGEgdm9pY2VtYWlsLiBJIGtub3cgdGhpcyBzeXN0ZW0gaGFzIHJ1biBvbiBhIHRlc3Qg c3RhbmQgb24gbW9yZSB0aGFuIG9uZSBvY2Nhc2lvbiwgYW5kIGhvbmVzdGx5IHRoZXJlIHdlcmUg YSBUT04gb2Ygc2V0dGluZ3MgdGhhdCBJIGhhZCB0byBwdXQgaW4gZnJvbSBhIHNwcmVhZHNoZWV0 IHRoYXQgc2hvdWxkIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBwdXQgaW4gYXQgdGhlIGZhY3RvcnkuIEl0IHdhcyBub3Qg YSBteXN0ZXJ5IHRoYXQgdGhpcyB3YXMgZ29pbmcgaW4gYSAtMTAsIHNvIHRoZSAzMDAgcGFnZXMg b2Ygc2V0dGluZ3Mgc2hvdWxkIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBwcmVzZXQuIEFmdGVyIGdldHRpbmcgdGhlbSBn b2luZyBhbmQgZG9pbmcgdGhlIGdyb3VuZCB0ZXN0aW5nIHRvIHNldHVwIG1vcmUgYWNjdXJhdGUg ZnVlbCBtYXBwaW5nLCBJIGdvdCB0byB0aGUgcG9pbnQgd2hlcmUgSSB3YXMgd2lsbGluZyB0byB0 YWtlIHRvIHRoZSBza2llcy4NCj4gDQo+IE1vc3Qgb2YgdGhlIGFib3ZlIGhhcyBiZWVuIGZhaXJs eSBuZWdhdGl2ZSwgYnV0IEkgdGhpbmsgYSBsb3Qgb2YgaXQgaXMgcGxvd2luZyBuZXcgZ3JvdW5k IGFuZCB0aGUgdGltZSB3ZSBoYXZlIHNwZW50IG9uIHRoaXMgb25lIHNob3VsZCBoZWxwIG90aGVy cyBkb3duIHRoZSByb2FkLiBJIG5vdyBoYXZlIDE5LjggaG91cnMgb24gdGhlIHN5c3RlbSwgYW5k IGl0IGhhcyBub3QgbWlzc2VkIGEgc2luZ2xlIGJlYXQgaW4gZmxpZ2h0LiBUaGVyZSBoYXZlIGJl ZW4gc29tZSBpc3N1ZXMgaW4gc3RhcnRpbmcgYW5kIHRoaW5ncyBsaWtlIHRoYXQsIGJ1dCB3ZSBh cmUgZmlndXJpbmcgb3V0IHdoYXQgd29ya3MuIEkgaGF2ZSBub3QgdGFrZW4gdGhlIHRpbWUgdG8g dHdlYWsgYWxsIG9mIHRoZSBmdWVsIG1hcHMgYW5kIHNldHRpbmdzLCBidXQgd2UgaGF2ZSB0aGlu Z3MgbW9zdGx5IHNldHVwIGFuZCBJIGhhdmUgYmVlbiB2ZXJ5IGltcHJlc3NlZCB3aXRoIHRoZSB3 YXkgaXQgaGFzIG9wZXJhdGVkIHNvIGZhci4gVXAgdW50aWwgdGhlIGxhc3QgZmV3IGhvdXJzLCBJ IGhhdmUgc3RpbGwgdG9sZCBwZW9wbGUsICJ0aGUganVyeSBpcyBzdGlsbCBvdXQsIiBidXQgSSBh bSBnZXR0aW5nIG11Y2ggY2xvc2VyIHRvIGEgdmVyZGljdCBub3cuIEl0IHRvb2sgdGhpcyBsb25n IGZvciBtZSB0byBnZXQgdG8gdGhlIHBvaW50IG9mIHNheWluZywgIkkgd291bGQgY2xpbWIgaW4g YW5kIGZseSBpdCB0byB0aGUgQmFoYW1hcywiIG9yICJJIHdvdWxkIGZlZWwgY29tZm9ydGFibGUg cHV0dGluZyBteSBraWRzIGluIGl0IGFuZCBmbHlpbmcgdG8gS2Fuc2FzLiINCj4gDQo+IFNvbWUg dGhpbmdzIGRpZmZlcmVudCBhYm91dCB0aGUgc3lzdGVtIGFuZCB0aGUgd2F5IHRoZSBlbmdpbmUg cnVucyBhcmUgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZzoNCj4gMS4gSSBjYW4gcnVuIHRoaXMgZW5naW5lIGFzIGxv dyBhcyA0MDAgcnBtIGFuZCBpdCBpcyBzbW9vdGguIEkgaGF2ZSBuZXZlciBydW4gYW4gSU8tNTQw IGxvd2VyIHRoYW4gNzUwLTg1MCBycG0gYmVjYXVzZSBpdCBzaGFrZXMgYW5kIHNodWRkZXJzLiBJ dCBtdXN0IGJlIGEgY29tYmluYXRpb24gb2YgdGhlIHZhcmlhYmxlIHRpbWluZyBhbmQgdGhlIGZh Y3QgdGhhdCB0aGUgZnVlbCBpcyBlbGVjdHJvbmljYWxseSBpbmplY3RlZCBpbnRvIHRoZSBpbnRh a2VzIGZvciBlYWNoIGN5bGluZGVyLCBzbyBhdCBsb3cgcnBtIGFsbCBjeWxpbmRlcnMgYXJlIHN0 aWxsIGdldHRpbmcgdGhlIHJpZ2h0IGFtb3VudCBvZiBmdWVsLg0KPiAyLiBJIGhhdmUgZG9uZSBz b21lIGV4dGVuc2l2ZSBsZWFuaW5nIGluIGZsaWdodCBhbmQgaGF2ZSB5ZXQgdG8gZ2V0IHRvIHRo ZSBwb2ludCB3aGVyZSB0aGUgZW5naW5lIHN0dW1ibGVzIG9yIHN0YXJ0cyB0byBtaXNzLiBUaGlz IGlzIHByb2JhYmx5IHJlbGF0ZWQgdG8gdGhlIHNhbWUgYXMgIzEsIGJ1dCBpdCBjYW4gcnVuIGFt YXppbmdseSBsZWFuIGluIGZsaWdodCBhbmQgc3RpbGwgcnVuIHNtb290aC4gWWVzLCBhdCBhIHBv aW50IHlvdSBzdGFydCBsb29zaW5nIGVub3VnaCBwb3dlciB0aGF0IHlvdSBnaXZlIHVwIGEgbG90 IG9mIHNwZWVkLCBidXQgSSB0cnVseSBkb24ndCB0aGluayBJIGhhdmUgc2VlbiBmdWVsIGZsb3dz IGFzIGxvdyBpbiBhIHN0YW5kYXJkIC01NDAgYXMgSSBoYXZlIHNlZW4gaW4gdGhpcyBvbmUsIGF0 IHRoZSBzYW1lIE1BUCBhbmQgUlBNIHNldHRpbmdzLg0KPiAzLiBUaGVyZSB0cnVseSBpcyBubyBz dWNoIHRoaW5nIGFzIGEgaG90IHN0YXJ0IGlzc3VlLiBJIGtub3csIHlvdSBjYW4gdGVsbCBtZSB1 bnRpbCB5b3UgYXJlIGJsdWUgaW4gdGhlIGZhY2UgdGhhdCB5b3UgaGF2ZSBhIHBlcmZlY3Qgc3lz dGVtIHRoYXQgd29ya3MgZXZlcnkgdGltZSBhbmQgeW91IG5ldmVyIGhhdmUgYSBwcm9ibGVtIHdp dGggaG90IHN0YXJ0cy4gSSBoYXZlIGZsb3duIHByb2JhYmx5IDIwIGRpZmZlcmVudCBSVi0xMCdz IGFuZCBtYW55IG1vcmUgdGhhbiB0aGF0IGRpZmZlcmVudCBmdWVsIGluamVjdGVkIGVuZ2luZXMs IGFuZCB0aGUgaG90IHN0YXJ0IGlzIG1vcmUgZGlmZmljdWx0IHRoYW4gYSBjb2xkIHN0YXJ0LiBJ IGhhdmUgYSBzeXN0ZW0gdGhhdCB3b3JrcyBtb3N0IG9mIHRoZSB0aW1lLCBidXQgSSBoYXZlIHll dCB0byBzZWUgYSBzeXN0ZW0gdGhhdCBjb25zaXN0ZW50bHkgcmVxdWlyZXMgbm8gbW9yZSBjcmFu a2luZyB0aGFuIGEgY29sZCBzdGFydC4gVGhlIEVGSUkgc3RhcnRzIGhvdCBleGFjdGx5IHRoZSBz YW1lIGFzIGl0IHN0YXJ0cyBjb2xkLCBpZiBub3QgYSBsaXR0bGUgYmV0dGVyLiBTaW5jZSBzbyBt dWNoIGZ1ZWwgaXMgYmVpbmcgcHVtcGVkIGJhY2sgdG8gdGhlIHRhbmssIGFueSB0aW1lIHlvdXIg bWFzdGVyIGlzIG9uIHlvdSBoYXZlIGNvb2wgZnVlbCBpbiB0aGUgc3lzdGVtLg0KPiA0LiBXaGls ZSB5b3UgY2FuIHVzZSB0aGUgbWl4dHVyZSBrbm9iIChwb3RlbnRpb21ldGVyIG1vdW50ZWQgb24g dGhlIHBhbmVsKSB0byBhZGp1c3QgeW91ciBBRlIgKEFpciBGdWVsIFJhdGlvKSwgdGhlcmUgaXMg dHJ1bHkgbXVjaCBsZXNzIG1peHR1cmUgYWRqdXN0bWVudCBhcyBhbHRpdHVkZSBjaGFuZ2VzIGFz IGxvbmcgYXMgcG93ZXIgc2V0dGluZyBkb2Vzbid0LiBJIGtub3cgSSBoYXZlIHNhaWQgcmVjZW50 bHksICJpZiB5b3UgdGhpbmsgeW91IHdvbid0IGJlIHRvdWNoaW5nIHRoZSBtaXh0dXJlIGNvbnRy b2wsIHlvdSBhcmUgbWlzdGFrZW4sIiBvciBzb21ldGhpbmcgYWxvbmcgdGhvc2UgbGluZXMuIEhv d2V2ZXIsIGFzIHlvdSBnZXQgdGhpbmdzIHNldHVwIG1vcmUsIG9uY2UgeW91IGdldCBzZXR1cCBp biBjcnVpc2Ugd2l0aCB5b3VyIE1BUCwgUlBNIGFuZCBBRlIgd2hlcmUgeW91IHdhbnQgdGhlbSwg eW91IHJlYWxseSBjYW4gZmx5IHRoZSByZXN0IG9mIHlvdXIgZmxpZ2h0IHRoYXQgd2F5Li4uSU5D TFVESU5HIFRIRSBERVNDRU5ULiBUaGlzIGlzIHNvbWV0aGluZyB0aGF0IHJlYWxseSBzdGFuZHMg b3V0IHRvIG1lLiBMZXQncyBzYXkgSSBhbSBmbHlpbmcgYWxvbmcgYXQgMTIsNTAwIGZlZXQgYXQg MTgiIE1BUCwgMiwzMDAgUlBNIGFuZCBBRlIgb2YgMTYuNy4gSSBjYW4gZGVzY2VuZCB0byBwYXR0 ZXJuIGFsdGl0dWRlIHdpdGggbm90aGluZyB0byB0b3VjaCBleGNlcHQgdGhlIHRocm90dGxlIGtu b2IuIFRoZSBnb3Zlcm5vciBrZWVwcyB0aGUgcHJvcCBhdCAyLDMwMCBSUE0gYW5kIHRoZSBFRklJ IGtlZXBzIHRoZSBBRlIgYXQgMTYuNyAobW9yZSBvciBsZXNzLCBidXQgY2xvc2UpLiBXaXRoIGEg c3RhbmRhcmQgaW5qZWN0aW9uIHN5c3RlbSwgSSBoYXZlIHRvIGtlZXAgYWRkaW5nIG1peHR1cmUg dGhlIHdob2xlIHdheSBkb3duLiBJIHVzdWFsbHkgZmluZCBteXNlbGYgZ29pbmcgdG8gdGhlIHJp Y2ggc2lkZSBvZiBwZSENCj4gIGFrIGFzIEkgZGVzY2VuZCBzaW1wbHkgc28gSSBkb24ndCBoYXZl IHRvIGFkanVzdCB0aGUgbWl4dHVyZSBhcyBvZnRlbi4gV2hlbiBJIHNlZSB0aGUgRUdUJ3Mgc3Rh cnQgdG8gY2xpbWIgdG93YXJkcyBwZWFrLCBJIHJpY2hlbiB1cCBhIGJpdCBtb3JlLiBJZiBJIGRv bid0IGRvIHRoaXMgYW5kIEkgZG9uJ3Qgc3RheSBvbiBpdCwgSSBlbmQgdXAgZ2V0dGluZyBzbyBs ZWFuIHRoYXQgdGhlIHBsYW5lIHJlYWxseSBhY2NlbGVyYXRlcyB3aGVuIEkgYWRkIG1peHR1cmUu IFdpdGggdGhlIEVGSUksIHlvdSByZWFsbHkgZG9uJ3QgaGF2ZSB0byB0b3VjaCBhbnl0aGluZyB1 bnRpbCB5b3UgYXJlIG9uIGZpbmFsLCB3aGVuIHlvdSBhcmUgcHJlcGFyaW5nIHRoZSBtaXh0dXJl IGtub2IgYW5kIHRoZSBwcm9wIGNvbnRyb2wgZm9yIGEgZ28tYXJvdW5kIGlmIHlvdSBuZWVkIG9u ZS4NCj4gDQo+IEZpbmFsIHRob3VnaHRzOg0KPiAxLiBXb3VsZCBJIHJlY29tbWVuZCB0aGUgRUZJ SSBzeXN0ZW0gdG8gb3RoZXIgcGVvcGxlIGJ1aWxkaW5nIFJWLTEwJ3M/IFRoYXQgZGVwZW5kcy4g U29tZSBwZW9wbGUganVzdCB3YW50IHRvIGZseS4gVGhleSB3YW50IHRvIGNsaW1iIGluIGFuZCBn byBzb21ld2hlcmUgYW5kIG5vdCBoYXZlIHRvIHRoaW5rIGFib3V0IGl0LiBGb3IgdGhlbSBJIHdv dWxkIHNheSwgZ28gd2l0aCBtYWdzIGFuZCBhIEJlbmRpeCwgU2lsdmVyaGF3ayBvciBBRlAgaW5q ZWN0aW9uIHN5c3RlbSBhbmQgZW5qb3kuIEZvciB0aG9zZSB3aG8gd2FudCB0byBkbyB0aGUgdHdl YWtpbmcgYW5kIHRlc3RpbmcgdG8gZ2V0IGEgbGl0dGxlIGJldHRlciBwZXJmb3JtYW5jZSBvciBi ZXR0ZXIgZWNvbm9teSwgdGhlbiB0aGlzIGp1c3QgbWlnaHQgYmUgdGhlIHN5c3RlbSBmb3IgeW91 Lg0KPiAyLiBEb2Vzbid0IHVzZWFibGUgZnVlbCBkZWNyZWFzZSBiZWNhdXNlIHlvdSBhcmUgZHVt cGluZyBzbyBtdWNoIGZ1ZWwgYmFjayBpbiB0aGUgdGFuayBhbmQgY291bGQgc3RhcnQgc3Vja2lu ZyBhaXIgYXQgYSBoaWdoZXIgZnVlbCBsZXZlbD8gSSBidXJuZWQgYSB0YW5rIGRvd24gdW50aWwg SSBzYXcgMCBvbiB0aGUgRHlub24gYW5kIGl0IHRvb2sgMjkuNSBnYWxsb25zIHRvIGZpbGwgYmFj ayB1cC4gSSBkaWRuJ3Qgd2FpdCB1bnRpbCBpdCBtaXNzZWQsIGJ1dCBpdCB3YXMgcnVubmluZyBz b2xpZCB1cCB0byB0aGF0IHBvaW50LiBJIGRvdWJ0IHRoZXJlIGlzIG1vcmUgdGhhbiBhIHF1YXJ0 IG9mIGRpZmZlcmVuY2UgaW4gdXNlYWJsZSBmdWVsLCBpZiB0aGF0IG11Y2guDQo+IDMuIFdvdWxk IEkgcHV0IG15IHdpZmUgYW5kL29yIGNoaWxkcmVuIGluIGl0PyBJIGhhdmUgYWxyZWFkeSBhbnN3 ZXJlZCB0aGlzLCBidXQgdGhlIHRydWUgYW5zd2VyIGlzLCAibm90IGFsbCBvZiB0aGVtIGF0IHRo ZSBzYW1lIHRpbWUuIiA6KSBUaGVyZSBhcmUgdG9vIG1hbnkgb2YgdGhlbS4gWWVzLCBJIHdvdWxk IHB1dCBteSBsb3ZlZCBvbmVzIGluIGl0Lg0KPiA0LiBEb2VzIGl0IHRydWx5IHBlcmZvcm0gYmV0 dGVyIHRoYW4gYSBzdGFuZGFyZCBzeXN0ZW0/IEhvbmVzdGx5LCBJIGRvbid0IGtub3csIGJ1dCBp dCBzdXJlIHNlZW1zIGxpa2UgaXQgZG9lcy4gV2l0aG91dCBxdW90aW5nIGEgbG90IG9mIG51bWJl cnMgYW5kIGNvbXBhcmluZywgSSB0aGluayBpdCBkb2VzIHBlcmZvcm0gYSBsaXR0bGUgYmV0dGVy LCBhbmQgSSBoYXZlIG5vdCBnb3R0ZW4gdmVyeSBkZWVwIGF0IGFsbCBpbnRvIHRoZSB0d2Vha2lu ZyB0byBtYWtlIGl0IGV2ZW4gYmV0dGVyIHlldC4gDQo+IA0KPiBKZXNzZSBTYWludA0KPiBTYWlu dCBBdmlhdGlvbiwgSW5jLg0KPiAzNTItNDI3LTAyODUNCj4gamVzc2VAc2FpbnRhdmlhdGlvbi5j b20NCj4gDQo+IFNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBpUGFkDQo+IA0KPiBfLT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQ0KPiBfLT0gICAgICAgICAg LSBUaGUgUlYxMC1MaXN0IEVtYWlsIEZvcnVtIC0NCj4gXy09IFVzZSB0aGUgTWF0cm9uaWNzIExp c3QgRmVhdHVyZXMgTmF2aWdhdG9yIHRvIGJyb3dzZQ0KPiBfLT0gdGhlIG1hbnkgTGlzdCB1dGls aXRpZXMgc3VjaCBhcyBMaXN0IFVuL1N1YnNjcmlwdGlvbiwNCj4gXy09IEFyY2hpdmUgU2VhcmNo ICYgRG93bmxvYWQsIDctRGF5IEJyb3dzZSwgQ2hhdCwgRkFRLA0KPiBfLT0gUGhvdG9zaGFyZSwg YW5kIG11Y2ggbXVjaCBtb3JlOg0KPiBfLT0NCj4gXy09ICAgLS0+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9u aWNzLmNvbS9OYXZpZ2F0b3I/UlYxMC1MaXN0DQo+IF8tPQ0KPiBfLT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQ0KPiBfLT0gICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAtIE1BVFJPTklDUyBXRUIgRk9SVU1TIC0NCj4gXy09IFNhbWUgZ3JlYXQgY29udGVu dCBhbHNvIGF2YWlsYWJsZSB2aWEgdGhlIFdlYiBGb3J1bXMhDQo+IF8tPQ0KPiBfLT0gICAtLT4g aHR0cDovL2ZvcnVtcy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tDQo+IF8tPQ0KPiBfLT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQ0KPiBfLT0gICAgICAg ICAgICAgLSBMaXN0IENvbnRyaWJ1dGlvbiBXZWIgU2l0ZSAtDQo+IF8tPSAgVGhhbmsgeW91IGZv ciB5b3VyIGdlbmVyb3VzIHN1cHBvcnQhDQo+IF8tPSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgIC1NYXR0IERyYWxsZSwgTGlzdCBBZG1pbi4NCj4gXy09ICAgLS0+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0 cm9uaWNzLmNvbS9jb250cmlidXRpb24NCj4gXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCiAJCSAJICAgCQkg IA= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.