Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:25 AM - Re: EFII - the jury is coming in (John MacCallum)
2. 07:21 AM - Re: EFII - the jury is coming in (Justin Jones)
3. 07:52 AM - Re: EFII - the jury is coming in (Carl Froehlich)
4. 09:34 AM - Re: EFII - the jury is coming in (Jesse Saint)
5. 09:34 AM - Re: EFII - the jury is coming in (Jesse Saint)
Message 1
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| Subject: | EFII - the jury is coming in |
Good report Jesse, keep us informed please
Cheers
John MacCallum
VH-DUU
RV 10 # 41016
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Wednesday, 6 May 2015 12:20 PM
Subject: RV10-List: EFII - the jury is coming in
Well, I think it's about time that I post a few of my experiences with the
EFII system (dual ignition and injection) in the RV-10. I do believe N930M
is the first RV-10, and possibly the first 6-cylinder engine, to be flying
with the full EFII system. I now have 20 hours in it and feel like I should
share my experiences and thoughts on it. I have talked to several people who
have shown interest or who are planning to install it in their -10's, so
this is mainly for those people, or those who may be on the fence.
First of all, it is a system that required, IMHO, a fair bit more planning
than a standard engine with mags and mechanical fuel injection. Even with
electronic ignition on one or both sides. I have had a few misgivings of
flying -10's with dual lightspeeds, but that didn't last very long. I am
actually very much looking forward to flying with the P-mag if/when they
ever actually start delivering them. With dual electronic ignition and
electronic injection, though, it mecomes much more serious. You really
should have dual batteries, at at least dual contactors, if not full dual
busses. You really should have dual alternators, or at least it's a very
good idea. You need dual fuel pumps because there is no engine-driven pump.
if any of these systems aren't redundant and the only one fails, you either
are immediately a glider or shortly will be. I know that the battery can
keep you going for a while if the alternator fails, but I'm not about to
test how long that is. I also thin!
k it's very important to have dual ECU's, one controlling each ignition and
each can separately control the injection system. I know this becomes a
fairly expensive system, but just think, at least it's only 30-year-old
technology instead of 80-year-old technology.
To be perfectly honest, it took several weeks after first engine run for me
to get up the nerve to climb in and go flying. I was very careful to stay
within gliding distance of the runway for the first several hours. I just
didn't fully understand all that was going on (still don't) and was nervous
about being the test pilot for a new system. I have done first flights
before, but never with a system that had never flown in this configuration
before (at least that I am aware of).
The setup was, honestly, a little disappointing. Rob has been fairly
available, usually with a call back after leaving a voicemail. I know this
system has run on a test stand on more than one occasion, and honestly there
were a TON of settings that I had to put in from a spreadsheet that should
have been put in at the factory. It was not a mystery that this was going in
a -10, so the 300 pages of settings should have been preset. After getting
them going and doing the ground testing to setup more accurate fuel mapping,
I got to the point where I was willing to take to the skies.
Most of the above has been fairly negative, but I think a lot of it is
plowing new ground and the time we have spent on this one should help others
down the road. I now have 19.8 hours on the system, and it has not missed a
single beat in flight. There have been some issues in starting and things
like that, but we are figuring out what works. I have not taken the time to
tweak all of the fuel maps and settings, but we have things mostly setup and
I have been very impressed with the way it has operated so far. Up until the
last few hours, I have still told people, "the jury is still out," but I am
getting much closer to a verdict now. It took this long for me to get to the
point of saying, "I would climb in and fly it to the Bahamas," or "I would
feel comfortable putting my kids in it and flying to Kansas."
Some things different about the system and the way the engine runs are the
following:
1. I can run this engine as low as 400 rpm and it is smooth. I have never
run an IO-540 lower than 750-850 rpm because it shakes and shudders. It must
be a combination of the variable timing and the fact that the fuel is
electronically injected into the intakes for each cylinder, so at low rpm
all cylinders are still getting the right amount of fuel.
2. I have done some extensive leaning in flight and have yet to get to the
point where the engine stumbles or starts to miss. This is probably related
to the same as #1, but it can run amazingly lean in flight and still run
smooth. Yes, at a point you start loosing enough power that you give up a
lot of speed, but I truly don't think I have seen fuel flows as low in a
standard -540 as I have seen in this one, at the same MAP and RPM settings.
3. There truly is no such thing as a hot start issue. I know, you can tell
me until you are blue in the face that you have a perfect system that works
every time and you never have a problem with hot starts. I have flown
probably 20 different RV-10's and many more than that different fuel
injected engines, and the hot start is more difficult than a cold start. I
have a system that works most of the time, but I have yet to see a system
that consistently requires no more cranking than a cold start. The EFII
starts hot exactly the same as it starts cold, if not a little better. Since
so much fuel is being pumped back to the tank, any time your master is on
you have cool fuel in the system.
4. While you can use the mixture knob (potentiometer mounted on the panel)
to adjust your AFR (Air Fuel Ratio), there is truly much less mixture
adjustment as altitude changes as long as power setting doesn't. I know I
have said recently, "if you think you won't be touching the mixture control,
you are mistaken," or something along those lines. However, as you get
things setup more, once you get setup in cruise with your MAP, RPM and AFR
where you want them, you really can fly the rest of your flight that
way...INCLUDING THE DESCENT. This is something that really stands out to me.
Let's say I am flying along at 12,500 feet at 18" MAP, 2,300 RPM and AFR of
16.7. I can descend to pattern altitude with nothing to touch except the
throttle knob. The governor keeps the prop at 2,300 RPM and the EFII keeps
the AFR at 16.7 (more or less, but close). With a standard injection system,
I have to keep adding mixture the whole way down. I usually find myself
going to the rich side of pe!
ak as I descend simply so I don't have to adjust the mixture as often. When
I see the EGT's start to climb towards peak, I richen up a bit more. If I
don't do this and I don't stay on it, I end up getting so lean that the
plane really accelerates when I add mixture. With the EFII, you really don't
have to touch anything until you are on final, when you are preparing the
mixture knob and the prop control for a go-around if you need one.
Final thoughts:
1. Would I recommend the EFII system to other people building RV-10's? That
depends. Some people just want to fly. They want to climb in and go
somewhere and not have to think about it. For them I would say, go with mags
and a Bendix, Silverhawk or AFP injection system and enjoy. For those who
want to do the tweaking and testing to get a little better performance or
better economy, then this just might be the system for you.
2. Doesn't useable fuel decrease because you are dumping so much fuel back
in the tank and could start sucking air at a higher fuel level? I burned a
tank down until I saw 0 on the Dynon and it took 29.5 gallons to fill back
up. I didn't wait until it missed, but it was running solid up to that
point. I doubt there is more than a quart of difference in useable fuel, if
that much.
3. Would I put my wife and/or children in it? I have already answered this,
but the true answer is, "not all of them at the same time." :) There are too
many of them. Yes, I would put my loved ones in it.
4. Does it truly perform better than a standard system? Honestly, I don't
know, but it sure seems like it does. Without quoting a lot of numbers and
comparing, I think it does perform a little better, and I have not gotten
very deep at all into the tweaking to make it even better yet.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse@saintaviation.com
Sent from my iPad
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: EFII - the jury is coming in |
I am going thru this exact same thing and have the same experiences that Jes
se is stating. I was told by Robert that once tuned, it should be a 1 GPH sa
vings over a standard system during cruise.
Jesse, where did you put your wide band O2 sensor? Robert was saying to put i
t in rear of the #4 cylinder 4 inches below the flange. He says that he has 4
00+ hrs on his system with no lead fowling and expects to get many many more
based on the performance others have seen. He also stated that the O2 senso
r will begin to be sluggish to change when it's going out.
Glad to hear you are enjoying the system.
Justin
> On May 5, 2015, at 18:52, Danny Riggs <jdriggs49@msn.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the honest and interesting answer. Not what I was really expect
ing from your previous posts!=C3=B0=C5=B8=CB=9C=C6=92
> What I'd really like to know is if there is any fuel savings over say a Be
ndix FI. It would seem that the fuel efficiency in climb and descent might s
ave as much as a half to one gallon per hour. Any thoughts??
>
>
> > From: jesse@saintaviation.com
> > Subject: RV10-List: EFII - the jury is coming in
> > Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 22:20:10 -0400
> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > Well, I think it's about time that I post a few of my experiences with t
he EFII system (dual ignition and injection) in the RV-10. I do believe N930
M is the first RV-10, and possibly the first 6-cylinder engine, to be flying
with the full EFII system. I now have 20 hours in it and feel like I should
share my experiences and thoughts on it. I have talked to several people wh
o have shown interest or who are planning to install it in their -10's, so t
his is mainly for those people, or those who may be on the fence.
> >
> > First of all, it is a system that required, IMHO, a fair bit more planni
ng than a standard engine with mags and mechanical fuel injection. Even with
electronic ignition on one or both sides. I have had a few misgivings of fl
ying -10's with dual lightspeeds, but that didn't last very long. I am actua
lly very much looking forward to flying with the P-mag if/when they ever act
ually start delivering them. With dual electronic ignition and electronic in
jection, though, it mecomes much more serious. You really should have dual b
atteries, at at least dual contactors, if not full dual busses. You really s
hould have dual alternators, or at least it's a very good idea. You need dua
l fuel pumps because there is no engine-driven pump. if any of these systems
aren't redundant and the only one fails, you either are immediately a glide
r or shortly will be. I know that the battery can keep you going for a while
if the alternator fails, but I'm not about to test how long that is. I also
thin!
> > k it's very important to have dual ECU's, one controlling each ignition a
nd each can separately control the injection system. I know this becomes a f
airly expensive system, but just think, at least it's only 30-year-old techn
ology instead of 80-year-old technology.
> >
> > To be perfectly honest, it took several weeks after first engine run for
me to get up the nerve to climb in and go flying. I was very careful to sta
y within gliding distance of the runway for the first several hours. I just d
idn't fully understand all that was going on (still don't) and was nervous a
bout being the test pilot for a new system. I have done first flights before
, but never with a system that had never flown in this configuration before (
at least that I am aware of).
> >
> > The setup was, honestly, a little disappointing. Rob has been fairly ava
ilable, usually with a call back after leaving a voicemail. I know this syst
em has run on a test stand on more than one occasion, and honestly there wer
e a TON of settings that I had to put in from a spreadsheet that should have
been put in at the factory. It was not a mystery that this was going in a -
10, so the 300 pages of settings should have been preset. After getting them
going and doing the ground testing to setup more accurate fuel mapping, I g
ot to the point where I was willing to take to the skies.
> >
> > Most of the above has been fairly negative, but I think a lot of it is p
lowing new ground and the time we have spent on this one should help others d
own the road. I now have 19.8 hours on the system, and it has not missed a s
ingle beat in flight. There have been some issues in starting and things lik
e that, but we are figuring out what works. I have not taken the time to twe
ak all of the fuel maps and settings, but we have things mostly setup and I h
ave been very impressed with the way it has operated so far. Up until the la
st few hours, I have still told people, "the jury is still out," but I am ge
tting much closer to a verdict now. It took this long for me to get to the p
oint of saying, "I would climb in and fly it to the Bahamas," or "I would fe
el comfortable putting my kids in it and flying to Kansas."
> >
> > Some things different about the system and the way the engine runs are t
he following:
> > 1. I can run this engine as low as 400 rpm and it is smooth. I have neve
r run an IO-540 lower than 750-850 rpm because it shakes and shudders. It mu
st be a combination of the variable timing and the fact that the fuel is ele
ctronically injected into the intakes for each cylinder, so at low rpm all c
ylinders are still getting the right amount of fuel.
> > 2. I have done some extensive leaning in flight and have yet to get to t
he point where the engine stumbles or starts to miss. This is probably relat
ed to the same as #1, but it can run amazingly lean in flight and still run s
mooth. Yes, at a point you start loosing enough power that you give up a lot
of speed, but I truly don't think I have seen fuel flows as low in a standa
rd -540 as I have seen in this one, at the same MAP and RPM settings.
> > 3. There truly is no such thing as a hot start issue. I know, you can te
ll me until you are blue in the face that you have a perfect system that wor
ks every time and you never have a problem with hot starts. I have flown pro
bably 20 different RV-10's and many more than that different fuel injected e
ngines, and the hot start is more difficult than a cold start. I have a syst
em that works most of the time, but I have yet to see a system that consiste
ntly requires no more cranking than a cold start. The EFII starts hot exactl
y the same as it starts cold, if not a little better. Since so much fuel is b
eing pumped back to the tank, any time your master is on you have cool fuel i
n the system.
> > 4. While you can use the mixture knob (potentiometer mounted on the pane
l) to adjust your AFR (Air Fuel Ratio), there is truly much less mixture adj
ustment as altitude changes as long as power setting doesn't. I know I have s
aid recently, "if you think you won't be touching the mixture control, you a
re mistaken," or something along those lines. However, as you get things set
up more, once you get setup in cruise with your MAP, RPM and AFR where you w
ant them, you really can fly the rest of your flight that way...INCLUDING TH
E DESCENT. This is something that really stands out to me. Let's say I am fl
ying along at 12,500 feet at 18" MAP, 2,300 RPM and AFR of 16.7. I can desce
nd to pattern altitude with nothing to touch except the throttle knob. The g
overnor keeps the prop at 2,300 RPM and the EFII keeps the AFR at 16.7 (more
or less, but close). With a standard injection system, I have to keep addin
g mixture the whole way down. I usually find myself going to the rich side o
f pe!
> > ak as I descend simply so I don't have to adjust the mixture as often. W
hen I see the EGT's start to climb towards peak, I richen up a bit more. If I
don't do this and I don't stay on it, I end up getting so lean that the pla
ne really accelerates when I add mixture. With the EFII, you really don't ha
ve to touch anything until you are on final, when you are preparing the mixt
ure knob and the prop control for a go-around if you need one.
> >
> > Final thoughts:
> > 1. Would I recommend the EFII system to other people building RV-10's? T
hat depends. Some people just want to fly. They want to climb in and go some
where and not have to think about it. For them I would say, go with mags and
a Bendix, Silverhawk or AFP injection system and enjoy. For those who want t
o do the tweaking and testing to get a little better performance or better e
conomy, then this just might be the system for you.
> > 2. Doesn't useable fuel decrease because you are dumping so much fuel ba
ck in the tank and could start sucking air at a higher fuel level? I burned a
tank down until I saw 0 on the Dynon and it took 29.5 gallons to fill back u
p. I didn't wait until it missed, but it was running solid up to that point.
I doubt there is more than a quart of difference in useable fuel, if that m
uch.
> > 3. Would I put my wife and/or children in it? I have already answered th
is, but the true answer is, "not all of them at the same time." :) There are
too many of them. Yes, I would put my loved ones in it.
> > 4. Does it truly perform better than a standard system? Honestly, I don'
t know, but it sure seems like it does. Without quoting a lot of numbers and
comparing, I think it does perform a little better, and I have not gotten v
ery deep at all into the tweaking to make it even better yet.
> >
> > Jesse Saint
> > Saint Aviation, Inc.
> > 352-427-0285
> > jesse@saintaviation.com
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
> >
> >
> >
> )=C2=AD=C3=C3=9F=C2=A2{l=B97=C2=B6r=B0h=C2=AFM4=C3=93M=1Fi=C3
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Message 3
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| Subject: | EFII - the jury is coming in |
I would expect at least that much fuel saving from any electronic
ignition (assuming you start with a balanced fuel injection system).
Carl (impatiently waiting for the promised June Pmag shipment)
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Justin Jones
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: EFII - the jury is coming in
I am going thru this exact same thing and have the same experiences that
Jesse is stating. I was told by Robert that once tuned, it should be a 1
GPH savings over a standard system during cruise.
Jesse, where did you put your wide band O2 sensor? Robert was saying to
put it in rear of the #4 cylinder 4 inches below the flange. He says
that he has 400+ hrs on his system with no lead fowling and expects to
get many many more based on the performance others have seen. He also
stated that the O2 sensor will begin to be sluggish to change when it's
going out.
Glad to hear you are enjoying the system.
Justin
On May 5, 2015, at 18:52, Danny Riggs <jdriggs49@msn.com> wrote:
Thanks for the honest and interesting answer. Not what I was really
expecting from your previous posts!=C3=B0=C5=B8=CB=9C=C6=92
What I'd really like to know is if there is any fuel savings over say a
Bendix FI. It would seem that the fuel efficiency in climb and descent
might save as much as a half to one gallon per hour. Any thoughts??
> From: jesse@saintaviation.com
> Subject: RV10-List: EFII - the jury is coming in
> Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 22:20:10 -0400
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Well, I think it's about time that I post a few of my experiences with
the EFII system (dual ignition and injection) in the RV-10. I do believe
N930M is the first RV-10, and possibly the first 6-cylinder engine, to
be flying with the full EFII system. I now have 20 hours in it and feel
like I should share my experiences and thoughts on it. I have talked to
several people who have shown interest or who are planning to install it
in their -10's, so this is mainly for those people, or those who may be
on the fence.
>
> First of all, it is a system that required, IMHO, a fair bit more
planning than a standard engine with mags and mechanical fuel injection.
Even with electronic ignition on one or both sides. I have had a few
misgivings of flying -10's with dual lightspeeds, but that didn't last
very long. I am actually very much looking forward to flying with the
P-mag if/when they ever actually start delivering them. With dual
electronic ignition and electronic injection, though, it mecomes much
more serious. You really should have dual batteries, at at least dual
contactors, if not full dual busses. You really should have dual
alternators, or at least it's a very good idea. You need dual fuel pumps
because there is no engine-driven pump. if any of these systems aren't
redundant and the only one fails, you either are immediately a glider or
shortly will be. I know that the battery can keep you going for a while
if the alternator fails, but I'm not about to test how long that is. I
also thin!
> k it's very important to have dual ECU's, one controlling each
ignition and each can separately control the injection system. I know
this becomes a fairly expensive system, but just think, at least it's
only 30-year-old technology instead of 80-year-old technology.
>
> To be perfectly honest, it took several weeks after first engine run
for me to get up the nerve to climb in and go flying. I was very careful
to stay within gliding distance of the runway for the first several
hours. I just didn't fully understand all that was going on (still
don't) and was nervous about being the test pilot for a new system. I
have done first flights before, but never with a system that had never
flown in this configuration before (at least that I am aware of).
>
> The setup was, honestly, a little disappointing. Rob has been fairly
available, usually with a call back after leaving a voicemail. I know
this system has run on a test stand on more than one occasion, and
honestly there were a TON of settings that I had to put in from a
spreadsheet that should have been put in at the factory. It was not a
mystery that this was going in a -10, so the 300 pages of settings
should have been preset. After getting them going and doing the ground
testing to setup more accurate fuel mapping, I got to the point where I
was willing to take to the skies.
>
> Most of the above has been fairly negative, but I think a lot of it is
plowing new ground and the time we have spent on this one should help
others down the road. I now have 19.8 hours on the system, and it has
not missed a single beat in flight. There have been some issues in
starting and things like that, but we are figuring out what works. I
have not taken the time to tweak all of the fuel maps and settings, but
we have things mostly setup and I have been very impressed with the way
it has operated so far. Up until the last few hours, I have still told
people, "the jury is still out," but I am getting much closer to a
verdict now. It took this long for me to get to the point of saying, "I
would climb in and fly it to the Bahamas," or "I would feel comfortable
putting my kids in it and flying to Kansas."
>
> Some things different about the system and the way the engine runs are
the following:
> 1. I can run this engine as low as 400 rpm and it is smooth. I have
never run an IO-540 lower than 750-850 rpm because it shakes and
shudders. It must be a combination of the variable timing and the fact
that the fuel is electronically injected into the intakes for each
cylinder, so at low rpm all cylinders are still getting the right amount
of fuel.
> 2. I have done some extensive leaning in flight and have yet to get to
the point where the engine stumbles or starts to miss. This is probably
related to the same as #1, but it can run amazingly lean in flight and
still run smooth. Yes, at a point you start loosing enough power that
you give up a lot of speed, but I truly don't think I have seen fuel
flows as low in a standard -540 as I have seen in this one, at the same
MAP and RPM settings.
> 3. There truly is no such thing as a hot start issue. I know, you can
tell me until you are blue in the face that you have a perfect system
that works every time and you never have a problem with hot starts. I
have flown probably 20 different RV-10's and many more than that
different fuel injected engines, and the hot start is more difficult
than a cold start. I have a system that works most of the time, but I
have yet to see a system that consistently requires no more cranking
than a cold start. The EFII starts hot exactly the same as it starts
cold, if not a little better. Since so much fuel is being pumped back to
the tank, any time your master is on you have cool fuel in the system.
> 4. While you can use the mixture knob (potentiometer mounted on the
panel) to adjust your AFR (Air Fuel Ratio), there is truly much less
mixture adjustment as altitude changes as long as power setting doesn't.
I know I have said recently, "if you think you won't be touching the
mixture control, you are mistaken," or something along those lines.
However, as you get things setup more, once you get setup in cruise with
your MAP, RPM and AFR where you want them, you really can fly the rest
of your flight that way...INCLUDING THE DESCENT. This is something that
really stands out to me. Let's say I am flying along at 12,500 feet at
18" MAP, 2,300 RPM and AFR of 16.7. I can descend to pattern altitude
with nothing to touch except the throttle knob. The governor keeps the
prop at 2,300 RPM and the EFII keeps the AFR at 16.7 (more or less, but
close). With a standard injection system, I have to keep adding mixture
the whole way down. I usually find myself going to the rich side of pe!
> ak as I descend simply so I don't have to adjust the mixture as often.
When I see the EGT's start to climb towards peak, I richen up a bit
more. If I don't do this and I don't stay on it, I end up getting so
lean that the plane really accelerates when I add mixture. With the
EFII, you really don't have to touch anything until you are on final,
when you are preparing the mixture knob and the prop control for a
go-around if you need one.
>
> Final thoughts:
> 1. Would I recommend the EFII system to other people building RV-10's?
That depends. Some people just want to fly. They want to climb in and go
somewhere and not have to think about it. For them I would say, go with
mags and a Bendix, Silverhawk or AFP injection system and enjoy. For
those who want to do the tweaking and testing to get a little better
performance or better economy, then this just might be the system for
you.
> 2. Doesn't useable fuel decrease because you are dumping so much fuel
back in the tank and could start sucking air at a higher fuel level? I
burned a tank down until I saw 0 on the Dynon and it took 29.5 gallons
to fill back up. I didn't wait until it missed, but it was running solid
up to that point. I doubt there is more than a quart of difference in
useable fuel, if that much.
> 3. Would I put my wife and/or children in it? I have already answered
this, but the true answer is, "not all of them at the same time." :)
There are too many of them. Yes, I would put my loved ones in it.
> 4. Does it truly perform better than a standard system? Honestly, I
don't know, but it sure seems like it does. Without quoting a lot of
numbers and comparing, I think it does perform a little better, and I
have not gotten very deep at all into the tweaking to make it even
better yet.
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> 352-427-0285
>
jesse@saintaviation.com<=================
=============p://www.matronics.com/contribution
">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
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i
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: EFII - the jury is coming in |
I am seeing 165ktas at 12,500 burning 10gph. AFR was 16.5 or so. 19.4MAP and
2400RPM.
I think our O2 sensor is welded onto the riser off Cyl 6, maybe 6" down.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse@saintaviation.com
Sent from my iPad
> On May 6, 2015, at 10:16 AM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com> wro
te:
>
> I am going thru this exact same thing and have the same experiences that J
esse is stating. I was told by Robert that once tuned, it should be a 1 GPH s
avings over a standard system during cruise.
>
> Jesse, where did you put your wide band O2 sensor? Robert was saying to pu
t it in rear of the #4 cylinder 4 inches below the flange. He says that he h
as 400+ hrs on his system with no lead fowling and expects to get many many m
ore based on the performance others have seen. He also stated that the O2 se
nsor will begin to be sluggish to change when it's going out.
>
> Glad to hear you are enjoying the system.
>
> Justin
>
>
>> On May 5, 2015, at 18:52, Danny Riggs <jdriggs49@msn.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the honest and interesting answer. Not what I was really expec
ting from your previous posts!=C3=B0=C5=B8=CB=9C=C6=92
>> What I'd really like to know is if there is any fuel savings over say a B
endix FI. It would seem that the fuel efficiency in climb and descent might s
ave as much as a half to one gallon per hour. Any thoughts??
>>
>>
>> > From: jesse@saintaviation.com
>> > Subject: RV10-List: EFII - the jury is coming in
>> > Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 22:20:10 -0400
>> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> >
>> >
>> > Well, I think it's about time that I post a few of my experiences with t
he EFII system (dual ignition and injection) in the RV-10. I do believe N930
M is the first RV-10, and possibly the first 6-cylinder engine, to be flying
with the full EFII system. I now have 20 hours in it and feel like I should
share my experiences and thoughts on it. I have talked to several people wh
o have shown interest or who are planning to install it in their -10's, so t
his is mainly for those people, or those who may be on the fence.
>> >
>> > First of all, it is a system that required, IMHO, a fair bit more plann
ing than a standard engine with mags and mechanical fuel injection. Even wit
h electronic ignition on one or both sides. I have had a few misgivings of f
lying -10's with dual lightspeeds, but that didn't last very long. I am actu
ally very much looking forward to flying with the P-mag if/when they ever ac
tually start delivering them. With dual electronic ignition and electronic i
njection, though, it mecomes much more serious. You really should have dual b
atteries, at at least dual contactors, if not full dual busses. You really s
hould have dual alternators, or at least it's a very good idea. You need dua
l fuel pumps because there is no engine-driven pump. if any of these systems
aren't redundant and the only one fails, you either are immediately a glide
r or shortly will be. I know that the battery can keep you going for a while
if the alternator fails, but I'm not about to test how long that is. I also
thin!
>> > k it's very important to have dual ECU's, one controlling each ignition
and each can separately control the injection system. I know this becomes a
fairly expensive system, but just think, at least it's only 30-year-old tec
hnology instead of 80-year-old technology.
>> >
>> > To be perfectly honest, it took several weeks after first engine run fo
r me to get up the nerve to climb in and go flying. I was very careful to st
ay within gliding distance of the runway for the first several hours. I just
didn't fully understand all that was going on (still don't) and was nervous
about being the test pilot for a new system. I have done first flights befo
re, but never with a system that had never flown in this configuration befor
e (at least that I am aware of).
>> >
>> > The setup was, honestly, a little disappointing. Rob has been fairly av
ailable, usually with a call back after leaving a voicemail. I know this sys
tem has run on a test stand on more than one occasion, and honestly there we
re a TON of settings that I had to put in from a spreadsheet that should hav
e been put in at the factory. It was not a mystery that this was going in a -
10, so the 300 pages of settings should have been preset. After getting them
going and doing the ground testing to setup more accurate fuel mapping, I g
ot to the point where I was willing to take to the skies.
>> >
>> > Most of the above has been fairly negative, but I think a lot of it is p
lowing new ground and the time we have spent on this one should help others d
own the road. I now have 19.8 hours on the system, and it has not missed a s
ingle beat in flight. There have been some issues in starting and things lik
e that, but we are figuring out what works. I have not taken the time to twe
ak all of the fuel maps and settings, but we have things mostly setup and I h
ave been very impressed with the way it has operated so far. Up until the la
st few hours, I have still told people, "the jury is still out," but I am ge
tting much closer to a verdict now. It took this long for me to get to the p
oint of saying, "I would climb in and fly it to the Bahamas," or "I would fe
el comfortable putting my kids in it and flying to Kansas."
>> >
>> > Some things different about the system and the way the engine runs are t
he following:
>> > 1. I can run this engine as low as 400 rpm and it is smooth. I have nev
er run an IO-540 lower than 750-850 rpm because it shakes and shudders. It m
ust be a combination of the variable timing and the fact that the fuel is el
ectronically injected into the intakes for each cylinder, so at low rpm all c
ylinders are still getting the right amount of fuel.
>> > 2. I have done some extensive leaning in flight and have yet to get to t
he point where the engine stumbles or starts to miss. This is probably relat
ed to the same as #1, but it can run amazingly lean in flight and still run s
mooth. Yes, at a point you start loosing enough power that you give up a lot
of speed, but I truly don't think I have seen fuel flows as low in a standa
rd -540 as I have seen in this one, at the same MAP and RPM settings.
>> > 3. There truly is no such thing as a hot start issue. I know, you can t
ell me until you are blue in the face that you have a perfect system that wo
rks every time and you never have a problem with hot starts. I have flown pr
obably 20 different RV-10's and many more than that different fuel injected e
ngines, and the hot start is more difficult than a cold start. I have a syst
em that works most of the time, but I have yet to see a system that consiste
ntly requires no more cranking than a cold start. The EFII starts hot exactl
y the same as it starts cold, if not a little better. Since so much fuel is b
eing pumped back to the tank, any time your master is on you have cool fuel i
n the system.
>> > 4. While you can use the mixture knob (potentiometer mounted on the pan
el) to adjust your AFR (Air Fuel Ratio), there is truly much less mixture ad
justment as altitude changes as long as power setting doesn't. I know I have
said recently, "if you think you won't be touching the mixture control, you
are mistaken," or something along those lines. However, as you get things s
etup more, once you get setup in cruise with your MAP, RPM and AFR where you
want them, you really can fly the rest of your flight that way...INCLUDING T
HE DESCENT. This is something that really stands out to me. Let's say I am f
lying along at 12,500 feet at 18" MAP, 2,300 RPM and AFR of 16.7. I can desc
end to pattern altitude with nothing to touch except the throttle knob. The g
overnor keeps the prop at 2,300 RPM and the EFII keeps the AFR at 16.7 (more
or less, but close). With a standard injection system, I have to keep addin
g mixture the whole way down. I usually find myself going to the rich side o
f pe!
>> > ak as I descend simply so I don't have to adjust the mixture as often. W
hen I see the EGT's start to climb towards peak, I richen up a bit more. If I
don't do this and I don't stay on it, I end up getting so lean that the pla
ne really accelerates when I add mixture. With the EFII, you really don't ha
ve to touch anything until you are on final, when you are preparing the mixt
ure knob and the prop control for a go-around if you need one.
>> >
>> > Final thoughts:
>> > 1. Would I recommend the EFII system to other people building RV-10's? T
hat depends. Some people just want to fly. They want to climb in and go some
where and not have to think about it. For them I would say, go with mags and
a Bendix, Silverhawk or AFP injection system and enjoy. For those who want t
o do the tweaking and testing to get a little better performance or better e
conomy, then this just might be the system for you.
>> > 2. Doesn't useable fuel decrease because you are dumping so much fuel b
ack in the tank and could start sucking air at a higher fuel level? I burned
a tank down until I saw 0 on the Dynon and it took 29.5 gallons to fill bac
k up. I didn't wait until it missed, but it was running solid up to that poi
nt. I doubt there is more than a quart of difference in useable fuel, if tha
t much.
>> > 3. Would I put my wife and/or children in it? I have already answered t
his, but the true answer is, "not all of them at the same time." :) There ar
e too many of them. Yes, I would put my loved ones in it.
>> > 4. Does it truly perform better than a standard system? Honestly, I don
't know, but it sure seems like it does. Without quoting a lot of numbers an
d comparing, I think it does perform a little better, and I have not gotten v
ery deep at all into the tweaking to make it even better yet.
>> >
>> > Jesse Saint
>> > Saint Aviation, Inc.
>> > 352-427-0285
>> > jesse@saintaviation.com<================
==========================
==========================
==========================
==========================
==========p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www
.matronics.com/contribution>
>> >
>> >
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>
>
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>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: EFII - the jury is coming in |
Fwiw, at 10,500 feet, 15" and 2300 rpm, I'm cruising at 143ktas burning 8.0 g
ph.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse@saintaviation.com
Sent from my iPad
> On May 6, 2015, at 10:16 AM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com> wro
te:
>
> I am going thru this exact same thing and have the same experiences that J
esse is stating. I was told by Robert that once tuned, it should be a 1 GPH s
avings over a standard system during cruise.
>
> Jesse, where did you put your wide band O2 sensor? Robert was saying to pu
t it in rear of the #4 cylinder 4 inches below the flange. He says that he h
as 400+ hrs on his system with no lead fowling and expects to get many many m
ore based on the performance others have seen. He also stated that the O2 se
nsor will begin to be sluggish to change when it's going out.
>
> Glad to hear you are enjoying the system.
>
> Justin
>
>
>> On May 5, 2015, at 18:52, Danny Riggs <jdriggs49@msn.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the honest and interesting answer. Not what I was really expec
ting from your previous posts!=C3=B0=C5=B8=CB=9C=C6=92
>> What I'd really like to know is if there is any fuel savings over say a B
endix FI. It would seem that the fuel efficiency in climb and descent might s
ave as much as a half to one gallon per hour. Any thoughts??
>>
>>
>> > From: jesse@saintaviation.com
>> > Subject: RV10-List: EFII - the jury is coming in
>> > Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 22:20:10 -0400
>> > To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> >
>> >
>> > Well, I think it's about time that I post a few of my experiences with t
he EFII system (dual ignition and injection) in the RV-10. I do believe N930
M is the first RV-10, and possibly the first 6-cylinder engine, to be flying
with the full EFII system. I now have 20 hours in it and feel like I should
share my experiences and thoughts on it. I have talked to several people wh
o have shown interest or who are planning to install it in their -10's, so t
his is mainly for those people, or those who may be on the fence.
>> >
>> > First of all, it is a system that required, IMHO, a fair bit more plann
ing than a standard engine with mags and mechanical fuel injection. Even wit
h electronic ignition on one or both sides. I have had a few misgivings of f
lying -10's with dual lightspeeds, but that didn't last very long. I am actu
ally very much looking forward to flying with the P-mag if/when they ever ac
tually start delivering them. With dual electronic ignition and electronic i
njection, though, it mecomes much more serious. You really should have dual b
atteries, at at least dual contactors, if not full dual busses. You really s
hould have dual alternators, or at least it's a very good idea. You need dua
l fuel pumps because there is no engine-driven pump. if any of these systems
aren't redundant and the only one fails, you either are immediately a glide
r or shortly will be. I know that the battery can keep you going for a while
if the alternator fails, but I'm not about to test how long that is. I also
thin!
>> > k it's very important to have dual ECU's, one controlling each ignition
and each can separately control the injection system. I know this becomes a
fairly expensive system, but just think, at least it's only 30-year-old tec
hnology instead of 80-year-old technology.
>> >
>> > To be perfectly honest, it took several weeks after first engine run fo
r me to get up the nerve to climb in and go flying. I was very careful to st
ay within gliding distance of the runway for the first several hours. I just
didn't fully understand all that was going on (still don't) and was nervous
about being the test pilot for a new system. I have done first flights befo
re, but never with a system that had never flown in this configuration befor
e (at least that I am aware of).
>> >
>> > The setup was, honestly, a little disappointing. Rob has been fairly av
ailable, usually with a call back after leaving a voicemail. I know this sys
tem has run on a test stand on more than one occasion, and honestly there we
re a TON of settings that I had to put in from a spreadsheet that should hav
e been put in at the factory. It was not a mystery that this was going in a -
10, so the 300 pages of settings should have been preset. After getting them
going and doing the ground testing to setup more accurate fuel mapping, I g
ot to the point where I was willing to take to the skies.
>> >
>> > Most of the above has been fairly negative, but I think a lot of it is p
lowing new ground and the time we have spent on this one should help others d
own the road. I now have 19.8 hours on the system, and it has not missed a s
ingle beat in flight. There have been some issues in starting and things lik
e that, but we are figuring out what works. I have not taken the time to twe
ak all of the fuel maps and settings, but we have things mostly setup and I h
ave been very impressed with the way it has operated so far. Up until the la
st few hours, I have still told people, "the jury is still out," but I am ge
tting much closer to a verdict now. It took this long for me to get to the p
oint of saying, "I would climb in and fly it to the Bahamas," or "I would fe
el comfortable putting my kids in it and flying to Kansas."
>> >
>> > Some things different about the system and the way the engine runs are t
he following:
>> > 1. I can run this engine as low as 400 rpm and it is smooth. I have nev
er run an IO-540 lower than 750-850 rpm because it shakes and shudders. It m
ust be a combination of the variable timing and the fact that the fuel is el
ectronically injected into the intakes for each cylinder, so at low rpm all c
ylinders are still getting the right amount of fuel.
>> > 2. I have done some extensive leaning in flight and have yet to get to t
he point where the engine stumbles or starts to miss. This is probably relat
ed to the same as #1, but it can run amazingly lean in flight and still run s
mooth. Yes, at a point you start loosing enough power that you give up a lot
of speed, but I truly don't think I have seen fuel flows as low in a standa
rd -540 as I have seen in this one, at the same MAP and RPM settings.
>> > 3. There truly is no such thing as a hot start issue. I know, you can t
ell me until you are blue in the face that you have a perfect system that wo
rks every time and you never have a problem with hot starts. I have flown pr
obably 20 different RV-10's and many more than that different fuel injected e
ngines, and the hot start is more difficult than a cold start. I have a syst
em that works most of the time, but I have yet to see a system that consiste
ntly requires no more cranking than a cold start. The EFII starts hot exactl
y the same as it starts cold, if not a little better. Since so much fuel is b
eing pumped back to the tank, any time your master is on you have cool fuel i
n the system.
>> > 4. While you can use the mixture knob (potentiometer mounted on the pan
el) to adjust your AFR (Air Fuel Ratio), there is truly much less mixture ad
justment as altitude changes as long as power setting doesn't. I know I have
said recently, "if you think you won't be touching the mixture control, you
are mistaken," or something along those lines. However, as you get things s
etup more, once you get setup in cruise with your MAP, RPM and AFR where you
want them, you really can fly the rest of your flight that way...INCLUDING T
HE DESCENT. This is something that really stands out to me. Let's say I am f
lying along at 12,500 feet at 18" MAP, 2,300 RPM and AFR of 16.7. I can desc
end to pattern altitude with nothing to touch except the throttle knob. The g
overnor keeps the prop at 2,300 RPM and the EFII keeps the AFR at 16.7 (more
or less, but close). With a standard injection system, I have to keep addin
g mixture the whole way down. I usually find myself going to the rich side o
f pe!
>> > ak as I descend simply so I don't have to adjust the mixture as often. W
hen I see the EGT's start to climb towards peak, I richen up a bit more. If I
don't do this and I don't stay on it, I end up getting so lean that the pla
ne really accelerates when I add mixture. With the EFII, you really don't ha
ve to touch anything until you are on final, when you are preparing the mixt
ure knob and the prop control for a go-around if you need one.
>> >
>> > Final thoughts:
>> > 1. Would I recommend the EFII system to other people building RV-10's? T
hat depends. Some people just want to fly. They want to climb in and go some
where and not have to think about it. For them I would say, go with mags and
a Bendix, Silverhawk or AFP injection system and enjoy. For those who want t
o do the tweaking and testing to get a little better performance or better e
conomy, then this just might be the system for you.
>> > 2. Doesn't useable fuel decrease because you are dumping so much fuel b
ack in the tank and could start sucking air at a higher fuel level? I burned
a tank down until I saw 0 on the Dynon and it took 29.5 gallons to fill bac
k up. I didn't wait until it missed, but it was running solid up to that poi
nt. I doubt there is more than a quart of difference in useable fuel, if tha
t much.
>> > 3. Would I put my wife and/or children in it? I have already answered t
his, but the true answer is, "not all of them at the same time." :) There ar
e too many of them. Yes, I would put my loved ones in it.
>> > 4. Does it truly perform better than a standard system? Honestly, I don
't know, but it sure seems like it does. Without quoting a lot of numbers an
d comparing, I think it does perform a little better, and I have not gotten v
ery deep at all into the tweaking to make it even better yet.
>> >
>> > Jesse Saint
>> > Saint Aviation, Inc.
>> > 352-427-0285
>> > jesse@saintaviation.com<================
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>> >
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