---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/29/15: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:55 AM - symmetrical panel and backup (DLM) 2. 07:30 AM - Re: symmetrical panel and backup (Kelly McMullen) 3. 07:35 AM - Re: New Aerosport Symmetrical Panel (fdombroski) 4. 07:46 AM - Re: symmetrical panel and backup (William Greenley) 5. 07:54 AM - Re: symmetrical panel and backup (Ed Kranz) 6. 08:01 AM - Re: symmetrical panel and backup (Rene) 7. 08:28 AM - Re: symmetrical panel and backup (Tim Olson) 8. 09:32 AM - Re: symmetrical panel and backup (Rocketman1988) 9. 10:01 AM - Re: Re: symmetrical panel and backup (Berck E. Nash) 10. 11:47 AM - Re: Re: symmetrical panel and backup (Tim Olson) 11. 12:10 PM - Re: Re: symmetrical panel and backup (Berck E. Nash) 12. 12:35 PM - Re: Re: symmetrical panel and backup (Carl Froehlich) 13. 01:07 PM - Re: Re: symmetrical panel and backup (Tim Olson) 14. 02:14 PM - Re: Re: symmetrical panel and backup (Berck E. Nash) 15. 03:39 PM - Re: symmetrical panel and backup (Bob Turner) 16. 04:02 PM - Re: Re: symmetrical panel and backup (Rene) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:13 AM PST US From: "DLM" Subject: RV10-List: symmetrical panel and backup If you are seriously interested in backup for IFR in IMC, you need two different EFIS systems and an autopilot with internal solid state gyros and backup batteries. My solution is Chelton primary with FAA level A software; GRT Sport/software (mini is now available) for backup and a Trutrak AP that will also fly the aircraft albeit not extremely precisely. I have three 680s on board although the last was added on the firewall more for weight and balance purposes. In essence I have three systems all capable of keeping the shiny side up. The AP can accept LNAV/VNAV commands from the Chelton, LNAV commands from the GRT and fly the aircraft independently depending on a source selection switch for the AP. My two cents --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:09 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: symmetrical panel and backup From: Kelly McMullen There are several "mini-EFIS" available today that were not on the market 7-8 yrs ago. Even if you select the same brand as the main EFIS, the operating software is different. You have to decide whether you want same logic or being able to know the ins and outs of two different brand philosophies, and whether you want more Tees in your pitot static system to leak, or a GPS derived attitude, altitude and airspeed as backup. It appears the autopilot market has evolved to where the leading EFIS have integrated autopilots, and backup batteries for each screen. Having a separate autopilot generally adds several grand in cost. However, most autopilots, whether separate or integrated will fail if they don't have electrons to power them, as most use electric servos. One does have to decide whether to wear 2 belts and 1 or two suspenders to have enough backup. On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:51 AM, DLM wrote: > > If you are seriously interested in backup for IFR in IMC, you need two > different EFIS systems and an autopilot with internal solid state gyros and > backup batteries. My solution is Chelton primary with FAA level A software; > GRT Sport/software (mini is now available) for backup and a Trutrak AP that > will also fly the aircraft albeit not extremely precisely. I have three > 680s > on board although the last was added on the firewall more for weight and > balance purposes. In essence I have three systems all capable of keeping > the > shiny side up. The AP can accept LNAV/VNAV commands from the Chelton, LNAV > commands from the GRT and fly the aircraft independently depending on a > source selection switch for the AP. > > My two cents > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > http://www.avast.com > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:28 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: New Aerosport Symmetrical Panel From: "fdombroski" For Back UP EFIS: On an IFR platform I always utilize a separate manufacture for the secondary EFIS. The GRT Mini x is a great package in a small footprint. -------- Frank Dombroski RV-10 2.0 N46VT soon to be flying KSMQ Somerset Airport NJ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442746#442746 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:34 AM PST US From: "William Greenley" Subject: RE: RV10-List: symmetrical panel and backup Trying to figure out how to keep backups in perspective. While building my 10 I am still flying my =9956 Cessna 172. Flew home yesterday IFR. One engine, one alternator, one main ships battery. Two radios, one powering a VOR/ILS/LOC head, and one a VOR. Had a tablet GPS on the yoke, and a backup tablet in the bag, no auto pilot. I know pilots that have been flying like this for years, even before the portable GPS=99s. Does it seem that we get a little carried away with backups? I am still trying to decide on a panel, but leaning towards two G3X=99s, and a mini-B each with batteries, autopilot controlled by the G3X=99s. No round dials. This seems like so much more backup than I have now, even still with one ships battery and alternator. Bill Greenley From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 10:27 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: symmetrical panel and backup There are several "mini-EFIS" available today that were not on the market 7-8 yrs ago. Even if you select the same brand as the main EFIS, the operating software is different. You have to decide whether you want same logic or being able to know the ins and outs of two different brand philosophies, and whether you want more Tees in your pitot static system to leak, or a GPS derived attitude, altitude and airspeed as backup. It appears the autopilot market has evolved to where the leading EFIS have integrated autopilots, and backup batteries for each screen. Having a separate autopilot generally adds several grand in cost. However, most autopilots, whether separate or integrated will fail if they don't have electrons to power them, as most use electric servos. One does have to decide whether to wear 2 belts and 1 or two suspenders to have enough backup. On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:51 AM, DLM wrote: If you are seriously interested in backup for IFR in IMC, you need two different EFIS systems and an autopilot with internal solid state gyros and backup batteries. My solution is Chelton primary with FAA level A software; GRT Sport/software (mini is now available) for backup and a Trutrak AP that will also fly the aircraft albeit not extremely precisely. I have three 680s on board although the last was added on the firewall more for weight and balance purposes. In essence I have three systems all capable of keeping the shiny side up. The AP can accept LNAV/VNAV commands from the Chelton, LNAV commands from the GRT and fly the aircraft independently depending on a source selection switch for the AP. My two cents --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List FORUMS - _blank">http://forums.matronics.com b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:38 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: symmetrical panel and backup From: Ed Kranz I do have a TCW IBBS backup battery that will power the MFD (which will drop into reversionary mode), engine monitor, one of the adahrs (along with the mag and temp probe), and the autopilot panel. The AP servos are NOT powered by the backup battery, but the autopilot panel will give me a flight director, so I will become the "meat servo". The MFD is also an XM enabled unit, so I'll even still have weather and some good tunes incase I get bored during the emergency! The backup battery will only be needed after the primary alternator, secondary 30 amp alternator, and the main ships battery fail. Additionally, if there is a CANBUS failure, the adahrs are both connected with a secondary RS232 connection to the PFD and MFD, helping me to keep the shiny side up. I have thought a LOT about systems redundancy. As an IT Systems Admin, it's part of my day job. I've designed as many of the systems to have redundancy, sometimes even dual and triple redundancy, as practical. The last big piece is going to be having a completely different brand backup PFD. Like I said before, I'm leaning towards a battery operated, GPS derived, self contained unit like a Dynon D1, as it isn't dependent on ANY of the other systems in the plane, like power or pitot/static. On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > There are several "mini-EFIS" available today that were not on the market > 7-8 yrs ago. Even if you select the same brand as the main EFIS, the > operating software is different. You have to decide whether you want same > logic or being able to know the ins and outs of two different brand > philosophies, and whether you want more Tees in your pitot static system to > leak, or a GPS derived attitude, altitude and airspeed as backup. > It appears the autopilot market has evolved to where the leading EFIS have > integrated autopilots, and backup batteries for each screen. Having a > separate autopilot generally adds several grand in cost. However, most > autopilots, whether separate or integrated will fail if they don't have > electrons to power them, as most use electric servos. One does have to > decide whether to wear 2 belts and 1 or two suspenders to have enough > backup. > > On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:51 AM, DLM wrote: > >> >> If you are seriously interested in backup for IFR in IMC, you need two >> different EFIS systems and an autopilot with internal solid state gyros >> and >> backup batteries. My solution is Chelton primary with FAA level A >> software; >> GRT Sport/software (mini is now available) for backup and a Trutrak AP >> that >> will also fly the aircraft albeit not extremely precisely. I have three >> 680s >> on board although the last was added on the firewall more for weight and >> balance purposes. In essence I have three systems all capable of keeping >> the >> shiny side up. The AP can accept LNAV/VNAV commands from the Chelton, LNAV >> commands from the GRT and fly the aircraft independently depending on a >> source selection switch for the AP. >> >> My two cents >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> >> ========== >> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:27 AM PST US From: "Rene" Subject: RE: RV10-List: symmetrical panel and backup I agree that the landscape has changed since I made my panel decision 8 years ago. Then my backup was a Blue Mountain.when it crapped out I went to a third GRT screen.then replaced that with a GRT sport. Different enough to solve the same technology problem, but yet runs just like my other GRT system and thus no learning curve or retraining time caused by two unique systems. I also have three 2.5=9D steam gauges. With that I should be able to get out of the soup even if everything else goes tango uniform. I have two batteries, but that was more to move the CG forward than the actual need for a second battery. Rene' 801-721-6080 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 8:27 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: symmetrical panel and backup There are several "mini-EFIS" available today that were not on the market 7-8 yrs ago. Even if you select the same brand as the main EFIS, the operating software is different. You have to decide whether you want same logic or being able to know the ins and outs of two different brand philosophies, and whether you want more Tees in your pitot static system to leak, or a GPS derived attitude, altitude and airspeed as backup. It appears the autopilot market has evolved to where the leading EFIS have integrated autopilots, and backup batteries for each screen. Having a separate autopilot generally adds several grand in cost. However, most autopilots, whether separate or integrated will fail if they don't have electrons to power them, as most use electric servos. One does have to decide whether to wear 2 belts and 1 or two suspenders to have enough backup. On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:51 AM, DLM wrote: If you are seriously interested in backup for IFR in IMC, you need two different EFIS systems and an autopilot with internal solid state gyros and backup batteries. My solution is Chelton primary with FAA level A software; GRT Sport/software (mini is now available) for backup and a Trutrak AP that will also fly the aircraft albeit not extremely precisely. I have three 680s on board although the last was added on the firewall more for weight and balance purposes. In essence I have three systems all capable of keeping the shiny side up. The AP can accept LNAV/VNAV commands from the Chelton, LNAV commands from the GRT and fly the aircraft independently depending on a source selection switch for the AP. My two cents --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List FORUMS - _blank">http://forums.matronics.com b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:36 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: symmetrical panel and backup I think the answer is both Yes and No to your question: "Does it seem that we get a little carried away with backups? " There is one big difference with having old avionics and new. With the old, you could, for instance, lose your attitude indicator, but still keep the wings fairly level with the turn coordinator. Things weren't so very integrated. With EFIS's, it would be much easier to lose a component and lost all or most of your data. If your screen goes dark, you're now "lost". And, I would venture to say that many or most pilots on a good day won't be diligent enough to have things like a VOR tuned in on a radio, while they are just flying using their GPS. I once lost GPS (in my old plane) while X/C on a sunny day, VFR, no clouds, but at the time my only sure knowledge was that I was somewhere in Tennessee, East of Memphis....because honestly hadn't really been paying close attention to exactly where I was. Being VFR it certainly wasn't an emergency, but suddenly I was faced with "Where they heck exactly am I, so that I can start replanning my route via something other than "direct"? It gets your attention how reliant you are on your primary tools. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to go all out on backups. But I wouldn't want to be without any, if you have an EFIS system. Even for IFR flight though, I'm *mostly* comfortable with the idea of more minimal backups. First, it's of utmost importance to be able to keep the plane upright, and headed in a consistent direction, even if you don't know that direction exactly. If you can do that, you're far better off. Next, having an independent Nav/COM and indicator that you can use to tune a VOR, would be a nice thing. An ipad, if it isn't a GPS issue, could be a VERY nice thing. But I don't think you need a ton more than that. The fact is, you're best off at that point, laying it all on the table and calling ATC and letting them know you have an issue, and ask for their help. With them giving you vectors, you can accomplish a whole lot on minimal backups. It may not be enough to get you to the runway in the lowest conditions, but it may help a lot. But having an iPad with a good EFB and enough backup equipment could get you through most approaches I would believe....provided you have enough primary gauges to keep the plane headed the right direction. One thing to keep in mind too...sometimes your backups can be found in unusual places. I put in 3 round gauges in my RV10, but now realized for the RV-14 that 2 of them are available on my engine monitor, which is standalone. (Airspeed and Altitude and even VSI) So, I really mostly need a good Attitude display. The biggest problem I have with IFR is people who would say, "I want to fly IFR but not 'HARD' IFR, only use it to get through ceilings." As far as I'm concerned, getting the rating and USING it, means staying proficient enough that you should be able to perform all normal approaches for your aircraft. Ceilings change, conditions change, and if you're going to launch anywhere that takes you out of sight of terra firma, you should be fully prepared to do whatever it takes to bring you safely back. Having the proper attitude about that, and staying proficient, will be very important. I did have an awesome fun IFR flight this weekend. It would have been a pain without my EFIS. I think I could have done it, but it would have been a much bigger chore. I need to do a couple more practice approaches soon, so I'll try them without the EFIS this time and see if I can do it. I did post a video of that flight if you're interested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFmZJVXUTd0 Tim do not archive On 5/29/2015 9:41 AM, William Greenley wrote: > Trying to figure out how to keep backups in perspective. While building > my 10 I am still flying my 56 Cessna 172. Flew home yesterday IFR. One > engine, one alternator, one main ships battery. Two radios, one powering > a VOR/ILS/LOC head, and one a VOR. Had a tablet GPS on the yoke, and a > backup tablet in the bag, no auto pilot. I know pilots that have been > flying like this for years, even before the portable GPSs. Does it seem > that we get a little carried away with backups? I am still trying to > decide on a panel, but leaning towards two G3Xs, and a mini-B each with > batteries, autopilot controlled by the G3Xs. No round dials. This seems > like so much more backup than I have now, even still with one ships > battery and alternator. > > Bill Greenley > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:44 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: symmetrical panel and backup From: "Rocketman1988" Tim Very well said. I also agree that the "hard" IFR thing is misused. You really need to be proficient in any IFR situation. Also, your BEST friend in IFR is ATC. You should NEVER be afraid or embarrassed to use them. Listening to everyone's opinion on what you HAVE to have to safely fly IFR really makes me chuckle. Have you guys looked at the ancient panels and systems in the airliners that carry you across the country and all over the world? They just updated the database in my work jet...using a single sided floppy disk...it took almost a half an hour... A plumber friend once told me something. He said, "The more complicated the plumbing is, the easier it is to stop it up." I think at some point, that statement applies here... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442761#442761 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:42 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: symmetrical panel and backup From: "Berck E. Nash" Those old airliners may be ancient, but they're also very redundant. All the transport category aircraft I've ever flown have at least three fully independent sources of attitude information, at least two completely separate pitot-static systems with two air data computers, three altimeters, three air speed indicators... Sure, they may have no glass screens, and I flew plenty of turboprops across the country full of passengers using nothing but VOR/DME for navigation (often without an operable autopilot), but they were all designed so no single system failure on any of those planes would prove to be a major event. I don't think I need the same level of redundancy in my RV-10, but I really do want something like the GRT mini (or even 3 round dials) in case the primary systems glitch. And I've seen enough bugs in the software and electronics of airliners (which are built and tested to much higher standards than whatever I'll be putting in my RV-10) to make me want options. I know people do it all the time, but I'm just not comfortable flying IMC where the failure of a single vacuum pump can leave me shooting an approach with a turn coordinator and a whiskey compass. Sure, I trained for it; I would probably survive, but part of the reason for building my own plane is so that I can affordably have a little more redundancy than that. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:25 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: symmetrical panel and backup The one thing I'd note is that when planning an EFIS system, yes, there are times when it may be nice to have more than one manufacturer in the panel for those primary gauges. But, don't fall victim to going too far with that. I would spend as much as you need to get your primary system fully up to par and integrated. Then just add the 2nd system as a more stand-alone device. The issue you will run into sometimes is panel space. Don't sacrifice too much of your panel space of what you want for the primary just to give it to backups. And don't do something like pick one EFIS brand for one side and one for the other side. You'll never be as happy with how it all integrates. This isn't saying you SHOULDN'T have backups or varied vendors, but just saying not to short your primary for the purpose of having a bigger backup. You can have all the backup you need without all that much space taken up. Tim On 5/29/2015 11:59 AM, Berck E. Nash wrote: > Those old airliners may be ancient, but they're also very redundant. > All the transport category aircraft I've ever flown have at least three > fully independent sources of attitude information, at least two > completely separate pitot-static systems with two air data computers, > three altimeters, three air speed indicators... Sure, they may have no > glass screens, and I flew plenty of turboprops across the country full > of passengers using nothing but VOR/DME for navigation (often without an > operable autopilot), but they were all designed so no single system > failure on any of those planes would prove to be a major event. > > I don't think I need the same level of redundancy in my RV-10, but I > really do want something like the GRT mini (or even 3 round dials) in > case the primary systems glitch. And I've seen enough bugs in the > software and electronics of airliners (which are built and tested to > much higher standards than whatever I'll be putting in my RV-10) to make > me want options. > > I know people do it all the time, but I'm just not comfortable flying > IMC where the failure of a single vacuum pump can leave me shooting an > approach with a turn coordinator and a whiskey compass. Sure, I trained > for it; I would probably survive, but part of the reason for building my > own plane is so that I can affordably have a little more redundancy than > that. > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: symmetrical panel and backup From: "Berck E. Nash" Tim: All good points, and no way I would split primary EFIS displays across vendors. The 3-screen 10" G3X touch system really does, I think, start to push the issue of it being possible to have the backup you want and the primary displays that you want. The 3 screen G3X just isn't going to leave enough room for something like the GRT-mini as a backup, which leaves me struggling a bit with the tradeoffs. I think the 3 screens are probably worth it for the primary use case, as a GRT-mini just takes up space without providing anything useful as long as the primary works. A 3rd G3X is going to be enormously useful every day, but I'm just not sure what to do as a backup in that case, short of deciding that 3 G3X's are probably good enough. And they probably are, but I keep going back to what happened to the F-22 when I envision software failures: http://www.dailytech.com/Lockheeds+F22+Raptor+Gets+Zapped+by+International+Date+Line/article6225.htm Looking around at modern spam cans (Cessna 350, Mooney Acclaim, SR-22) , they all seem to be going with the 3 round gauges as backups... On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > The one thing I'd note is that when planning an EFIS system, yes, > there are times when it may be nice to have more than one > manufacturer in the panel for those primary gauges. > But, don't fall victim to going too far with that. > I would spend as much as you need to get your primary system > fully up to par and integrated. Then just add the 2nd system > as a more stand-alone device. The issue you will run into > sometimes is panel space. Don't sacrifice too much of your > panel space of what you want for the primary just to give it > to backups. And don't do something like pick one EFIS brand > for one side and one for the other side. You'll never be > as happy with how it all integrates. This isn't saying you > SHOULDN'T have backups or varied vendors, but just saying > not to short your primary for the purpose of having a bigger > backup. You can have all the backup you need without > all that much space taken up. > Tim > > > On 5/29/2015 11:59 AM, Berck E. Nash wrote: > >> Those old airliners may be ancient, but they're also very redundant. >> All the transport category aircraft I've ever flown have at least three >> fully independent sources of attitude information, at least two >> completely separate pitot-static systems with two air data computers, >> three altimeters, three air speed indicators... Sure, they may have no >> glass screens, and I flew plenty of turboprops across the country full >> of passengers using nothing but VOR/DME for navigation (often without an >> operable autopilot), but they were all designed so no single system >> failure on any of those planes would prove to be a major event. >> >> I don't think I need the same level of redundancy in my RV-10, but I >> really do want something like the GRT mini (or even 3 round dials) in >> case the primary systems glitch. And I've seen enough bugs in the >> software and electronics of airliners (which are built and tested to >> much higher standards than whatever I'll be putting in my RV-10) to make >> me want options. >> >> I know people do it all the time, but I'm just not comfortable flying >> IMC where the failure of a single vacuum pump can leave me shooting an >> approach with a turn coordinator and a whiskey compass. Sure, I trained >> for it; I would probably survive, but part of the reason for building my >> own plane is so that I can affordably have a little more redundancy than >> that. >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:35:31 PM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: symmetrical panel and backup Looking over this thread it seems to me that it might be worthwhile defining the objectives before looking at solution sets. For a flat screen approach I want: - Devices that integrate for capability - Devices that do not rely on any single input - Two displays in the event that one dies, each from an independent power feed - Each display can perform any function - Two independent ADAHRS modules (or similar capability) - Enough redundancy in power to the panel that a single failure will not turn everything dark (e.g. no Avionics Master switch, no single master relay to the battery or multiple batteries feeding a common buss, etc.) There are a boatload of ways to achieve the above objectives, some more complex (and costly) than others. To Tim's point however, start off with what you want for normal operations then see what it can/can't do for any single failure mode that you can think of for the whole system. For the things you find unacceptable design in a back up. The rest are managed. I have two 10" displays, an analog airspeed and altimeter, two ADAHRS modules, a second radio and two selectable ways to power each device. A loss of any single component will support continued, but perhaps reduced capability IFR flight. Example of a managed risk is if the Garmin 650 craps out (as it already has) then I lose my certified IFR WAAS GPS and NAV. I'd be relying on the EFIS standalone GPS system so not legal for IFR but perfectly fine for getting me on the ground - after I do the required report to ATC. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 2:45 PM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: symmetrical panel and backup The one thing I'd note is that when planning an EFIS system, yes, there are times when it may be nice to have more than one manufacturer in the panel for those primary gauges. But, don't fall victim to going too far with that. I would spend as much as you need to get your primary system fully up to par and integrated. Then just add the 2nd system as a more stand-alone device. The issue you will run into sometimes is panel space. Don't sacrifice too much of your panel space of what you want for the primary just to give it to backups. And don't do something like pick one EFIS brand for one side and one for the other side. You'll never be as happy with how it all integrates. This isn't saying you SHOULDN'T have backups or varied vendors, but just saying not to short your primary for the purpose of having a bigger backup. You can have all the backup you need without all that much space taken up. Tim On 5/29/2015 11:59 AM, Berck E. Nash wrote: > Those old airliners may be ancient, but they're also very redundant. > All the transport category aircraft I've ever flown have at least > three fully independent sources of attitude information, at least two > completely separate pitot-static systems with two air data computers, > three altimeters, three air speed indicators... Sure, they may have > no glass screens, and I flew plenty of turboprops across the country > full of passengers using nothing but VOR/DME for navigation (often > without an operable autopilot), but they were all designed so no > single system failure on any of those planes would prove to be a major event. > > I don't think I need the same level of redundancy in my RV-10, but I > really do want something like the GRT mini (or even 3 round dials) in > case the primary systems glitch. And I've seen enough bugs in the > software and electronics of airliners (which are built and tested to > much higher standards than whatever I'll be putting in my RV-10) to > make me want options. > > I know people do it all the time, but I'm just not comfortable flying > IMC where the failure of a single vacuum pump can leave me shooting an > approach with a turn coordinator and a whiskey compass. Sure, I > trained for it; I would probably survive, but part of the reason for > building my own plane is so that I can affordably have a little more > redundancy than that. > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:18 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: symmetrical panel and backup Yeah, you added some good info. I'll expound on a couple more points. First, and this may seem like an attack but it's not, and it may seem like I'm biased because I'm a "don't have" guy, but I'm not. But... I'm just not in the camp that thinks bigger glass is better. At a certain point it just takes up more space. I have 3 screens and they give PLENTY of visibility, for the pilot, to all 3 of them, and they are maybe what, 1/3 the size of the big 10" ones? Much easier to fit in the panel that way and much easier to have *effective* backups. And by that I mean not where you have to have a backup instrument down by your fuel valve to be able to fit one in. I think Garmin had it right with the original G3X screens, personally. Those would be easy to fit into any RV10 panel and have 3 screens. But one very important addition I think is that if you are going for a real complete backup solution, don't forget some of the details. On my flight this last week, I had to do VTF for the ILS, and I not only had my NAV1 used by my EFIS for displaying the ILS on the EFIS, but I set NAV2 up as well, since it had been a while that I did a real ILS (not for practice) and especially in low conditions. I wanted that cross check with my Nav2. But what made it even POSSIBLE is that I had a CDI in my panel. I know almost nobody that seems to install a CDI anymore. But, it was a welcome instrument on that approach. If you want to have a Nav2 and have it be useable, you need at least a device that can display that info. In my RV-14 panel I just didn't have the room, so I won't have a CDI. That's Ok, I also won't have a NAV2. But that really changes my abilities in some situations. When I was picking through my approaches I could do, looking between 2 airports I was going to be near, there was only one ILS, and I don't remember for sure this detail but I don't think that there were ANY other approaches at either airport that could bring you lower than 300 or 400'. Ceilings were just below 300. GPS is great, but at many airports you may not get the low approach capability that you'd have with an ILS. So equip as appropriate. Now in a backup situation, in my RV-14, if I lost my NAV, I'd have been stuck and had to go somewhere else...and with 300' ceilings there isn't much available. Time to hike it to another airport maybe 30-45 minutes away. Anyway, EFIS's are great, but don't overlook the other devices is my main point. A Dynon/GRT/Blue Mountain/Whatever may be a good backup to a point. But it may not give you everything. Or, if you have 2 NAV radios, it may be that you want a mini-efis that can display the CDI on it too. Just so many things to think about. I was personally *considering* using a ipad with the Levil AHRS as a backup instrument in the RV-14...but the caveat is that if I depart on any flight where I may need it, I would have it ready and running the whole flight. I'm not sure sure it's a great backup for a whole panel, but it's all I had real good space for other than what round gauges supply. And for that matter, it's probably all I'd need. The comment about most production planes using round gauges is a good one. They go with those because they are a backup...and don't need to be full featured. But your flight style will change if you should be using them. Tim On 5/29/2015 2:32 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote: > > Looking over this thread it seems to me that it might be worthwhile defining > the objectives before looking at solution sets. > > For a flat screen approach I want: > - Devices that integrate for capability > - Devices that do not rely on any single input > - Two displays in the event that one dies, each from an independent power > feed > - Each display can perform any function > - Two independent ADAHRS modules (or similar capability) > - Enough redundancy in power to the panel that a single failure will not > turn everything dark (e.g. no Avionics Master switch, no single master relay > to the battery or multiple batteries feeding a common buss, etc.) > > There are a boatload of ways to achieve the above objectives, some more > complex (and costly) than others. To Tim's point however, start off with > what you want for normal operations then see what it can/can't do for any > single failure mode that you can think of for the whole system. For the > things you find unacceptable design in a back up. The rest are managed. > > I have two 10" displays, an analog airspeed and altimeter, two ADAHRS > modules, a second radio and two selectable ways to power each device. A > loss of any single component will support continued, but perhaps reduced > capability IFR flight. Example of a managed risk is if the Garmin 650 craps > out (as it already has) then I lose my certified IFR WAAS GPS and NAV. I'd > be relying on the EFIS standalone GPS system so not legal for IFR but > perfectly fine for getting me on the ground - after I do the required report > to ATC. > > Carl > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: symmetrical panel and backup From: "Berck E. Nash" On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 2:03 PM, Tim Olson wrote: > > First, and this may seem like an attack but it's not, and it may > seem like I'm biased because I'm a "don't have" guy, but I'm not. > But... I'm just not in the camp that thinks bigger glass is better. Interesting point. I'd just assumed from looking at them at OSH, that flying behind giant screens would be a much more pleasant experience. But I've zero personal experience flying with large screens, so I don't know. Have you flown anything with big screens? The small garmins have always looked way too cluttered to me, and some bigger screens seems to make that better. Personally, the only glass I've spent any time behind is the collins pro line 4 in the CRJ, which has laughably small CRT displays by today's standards. I never thought they seemed small, but there were 6 of them (you can really only see the 2 in front of you and the 2 in the center), and collins doesn't have the same cluttered look that Garmin does. If I'd been forced to have the engine instruments share with the MFD, I do think the screens would be way too small. I want a plane that's comfortable to fly from either seat, as I'm likely to spend a lot of time with two pilots up front. (I'm also going to be doing instrument instruction with my build partner, and I'm somewhat greedy about wanting my own display over in the right seat.) I'd been thinking that a single 10" display in front of each pilot would be plenty, but the part that bothers me about that is a screen in front of the seat you're not sitting in is just too far away if one goes dark. Which means, do you switch seats, or crane your neck? A center screen would solve that problem. The G3X Touch is also available with 7" screens, and 3 of those would certainly be good enough, and leave plenty of room for backups..... but 3 bigger screens seems even better. I've still got well over a year before I have to start filling a panel (just starting on the fuel tanks now), but in the meantime I'm anxiously looking at what's out there. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:57 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: symmetrical panel and backup From: "Bob Turner" My setup has a GRT 6.5" screen centered on tbe left seat, then the avionics, then a second 6.5" screen, so this last one is offset to the left for someone in the right seat. Easy for the left seat to use. I did it this way so the engine instruments, normally on screen 2, are in the same place as on the 182 I flew for many years, so it seems natural to me. I have given instrument instruction, in actual, in someone else's -10, who had a similar set up. I had no problem looking across to the pilot's PFD; everything was quite readable. re Tim and CDIs: I quite agree. I routinely do not use the GRT's primary PFD page. Instead, I split it with an electronic HSI. On an ILS the main CDI is showing localizer deviation, while an RMI needle shows the SL30's multiplexed VOR, for cross fixes, missed approach, whatever you need on a no-gps approach. If everything goes bad and I'm reduced to my battery powered D-6 and a hand held Sporty's VOR (so old that it just shows digital to/from bearings) I've found (under the hood) that this works quite well. The trick is to almost close your eyes and imagine the bearing as a needle on an ADF, and fly the approach as if it were an NDB. Of course, that presumes that you can fly NDB approaches! -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442781#442781 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:20 PM PST US From: "Rene" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: symmetrical panel and backup What is a NDB? What is a ADF needle? OK, I am trying to act young....but I am not.. I have never really used the HIS, maybe I should give it a try. I am flying young eagles tomorrow at another airport tomorrow so I will have some transit time to play around. I got some formation and Acro demo/instruction in a friends RV-7 joining on my partner flying the 10. He used the HSI view, but to be honest my head was outside the airplane 99% of the time. What a great experience, I have never done real formation before. Do not archive Rene' 801-721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Turner Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 4:37 PM Subject: RV10-List: Re: symmetrical panel and backup My setup has a GRT 6.5" screen centered on tbe left seat, then the avionics, then a second 6.5" screen, so this last one is offset to the left for someone in the right seat. Easy for the left seat to use. I did it this way so the engine instruments, normally on screen 2, are in the same place as on the 182 I flew for many years, so it seems natural to me. I have given instrument instruction, in actual, in someone else's -10, who had a similar set up. I had no problem looking across to the pilot's PFD; everything was quite readable. re Tim and CDIs: I quite agree. I routinely do not use the GRT's primary PFD page. Instead, I split it with an electronic HSI. On an ILS the main CDI is showing localizer deviation, while an RMI needle shows the SL30's multiplexed VOR, for cross fixes, missed approach, whatever you need on a no-gps approach. If everything goes bad and I'm reduced to my battery powered D-6 and a hand held Sporty's VOR (so old that it just shows digital to/from bearings) I've found (under the hood) that this works quite well. The trick is to almost close your eyes and imagine the bearing as a needle on an ADF, and fly the approach as if it were an NDB. Of course, that presumes that you can fly NDB approaches! -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442781#442781 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.