---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/18/15: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:36 AM - Re: Re: Reconsider Garmin Purchases (Ralph E. Capen) 2. 06:30 AM - Re: Re: Reconsider Garmin Purchases (Linn Walters) 3. 10:41 AM - Re: Re: Reconsider Garmin Purchases (Bruce Johnson) 4. 05:02 PM - Carbon Monoxide (nukeflyboy) 5. 05:41 PM - Re: Carbon Monoxide () 6. 06:03 PM - Re: Carbon Monoxide (Bob Condrey) 7. 06:24 PM - Re: Carbon Monoxide (RV10@TEXASRV10.COM) 8. 09:06 PM - Re: Carbon Monoxide (Kelly McMullen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: Reconsider Garmin Purchases From: "Ralph E. 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________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:51 AM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Reconsider Garmin Purchases I was an electronics test engineer for most of my working career, working for large and small electronics manufacturers. I've pretty much seen it all. The small companies have to rely on really good technicians to troubleshoot manufacturing problems where the large companies invested lots of $$ in test equipment to do that job. Whenever a 'repair/return' comes in it has to be inserted into the manufacturing process for testing/repair which slows down production and impacts the companies income as new product goes out the door. From a company standpoint, this is not a good thing. Normal manufacturing errors and resulting rework are terribly expensive, much less returns. I put Garmin in the 'big company' and S-Tec in the 'small company' category .... simply because of their end-user market. Lots of Garmin GPS being used in cars .... not so many autopilots. The 'flat fee' repairs happen because it's really difficult or not cost effective to track time/parts in a repair cycle, and should be a 'good average' for repairs. We live in a disposable society where it's usually more cost effective to replace the whole unit rather than find/replace one failing part. I would guess that a high 'flat fee' discourages repair/returns especially on items no longer in production. For a company like Garmin, it's more cost effective to orphan a product than it is to keep it 'alive' .... and Garmin does that fairly often. If you can't get your unit fixed for a reasonable price (to us, anyway) then you'll probably buy a 'new and improved' box ..... far more profitable for the company. Now, on to Matt's original problem. I believe that the lens that got scratched might be a plastic polarizing filter ..... glass would be harder to scratch and shouldn't cause too much of a viewing problem. Most all LCD displays have them .... see http://tinyurl.com/ooj5vl2 ...... which can be cut to fit .... you have to check the orientation with the unit on to see which way the film goes. If the polarizing material is attached to the glass (I would expect it to be on the 'backside' of the glass) then go to a glass shop and have them cut you a thin piece to cover the new material. For Ralph ..... glad you had the ability to fix your fuse problem. I've had to fix circuit boards for quite a few folks that thought they had the ability ..... I'm amazed how much damage a high wattage soldering gun can do ...... Linn On 6/18/2015 8:33 AM, Ralph E. Capen wrote: > Bob, > I had a similar issue with S-Tec when they were starting their 'get > bought out by the next company' period. Their autopilot has soldered > in fuses. They wanted me to pull the unit an send it to a authorized > installer to even touch it. I was able to replace the soldered in > fuses with replaceable fuse / receptacle units. Not a problem since > and the next one will not be from them. > > Ralph > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:25 AM PST US From: Bruce Johnson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Reconsider Garmin Purchases Like Lynn said, It's all about the money. Big companies do not care about u s the consumers and there is little we can do about it.. I have a short you know what but a long memory and try with a vengeance to avoid companies wi th this attitude. Sometimes it is unavoidable. I feel for you Matt=C2-God Bless America (please) =C2-:) Bruce On Thursday, June 18, 2015 6:46 AM, Linn Walters wrote: I was an electronics test engineer for most of my working career, workin g for large and small electronics manufacturers.=C2- I've pretty much see n it all.=C2- The small companies have to rely on really good technicians to troubleshoot manufacturing problems where the large companies invested lots of $$ in test equipment to do that job.=C2- Whenever a 'repair/retur n' comes in it has to be inserted into the manufacturing process for testin g/repair which slows down production and impacts the companies income as ne w product goes out the door.=C2- From a company standpoint, this is not a good thing.=C2- Normal manufacturing errors and resulting rework are ter ribly expensive, much less returns. I put Garmin in the 'big company' and S-Tec in the 'small company' categor y .... simply because of their end-user market.=C2- Lots of Garmin GPS be ing used in cars .... not so many autopilots. The 'flat fee' repairs happen because it's really difficult or not cost ef fective to track time/parts in a repair cycle, and should be a 'good averag e' for repairs.=C2- We live in a disposable society where it's usually mo re cost effective to replace the whole unit rather than find/replace one fa iling part.=C2- I would guess that a high 'flat fee' discourages repair/r eturns especially on items no longer in production.=C2- For a company lik e Garmin, it's more cost effective to orphan a product than it is to keep i t 'alive' .... and Garmin does that fairly often.=C2- If you can't get yo ur unit fixed for a reasonable price (to us, anyway) then you'll probably b uy a 'new and improved' box ..... far more profitable for the company. Now, on to Matt's original problem.=C2- I believe that the lens that got scratched might be a plastic polarizing filter ..... glass would be harder to scratch and shouldn't cause too much of a viewing problem.=C2- Most a ll LCD displays have them .... see http://tinyurl.com/ooj5vl2 ...... which can be cut to fit .... you have to check the orientation with the unit on t o see which way the film goes.=C2- If the polarizing material is attached to the glass (I would expect it to be on the 'backside' of the glass) then go to a glass shop and have them cut you a thin piece to cover the new mat erial. For Ralph ..... glad you had the ability to fix your fuse problem.=C2- I 've had to fix circuit boards for quite a few folks that thought they had t he ability ..... I'm amazed how much damage a high wattage soldering gun ca n do ...... Linn On 6/18/2015 8:33 AM, Ralph E. Capen wrote: Bob,=C2- I had a similar issue with S-Tec when they were starting their 'get bought out by the next company' period. =C2-Their autopilot has sold ered in fuses. =C2-They wanted me to pull the unit an send it to a author ized installer to even touch it. =C2- I was able to replace the soldered in fuses with replaceable fuse / receptacle units. =C2-Not a problem sinc e and the next one will not be from them. Ralph ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:57 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Carbon Monoxide From: "nukeflyboy" I bought a carbon monoxide detector from Aeromedix that appears to work well. It measures CO levels to the ppm level on a real time basis. My experience with it has been interesting and I wonder if you are unknowingly being exposed to high level of carbon monoxide. If you are in a line of airplanes waiting to take off, say at Oshkosh for example, it is not uncommon for the monitor to alarm (set at 30 ppm). It is picking up the exhaust form the airplane in front of you coming into your vents. I also recently installed an Icebox air conditioner to help with the Texas summer heat. To work you have to shut off outside ventilation. I have tried this several times and each time at takeoff, and while in a climb, the CO monitor goes into alarm: 30 to 45 ppm have been noticed. This can be alleviated by opening the fresh air vents, but negates the use of the air conditioner. Thinking that some exhaust may be coming into the cockpit from the tailcone (high AOA puts the exhaust on the belly), I sealed the corrugations in the baggage compartment bulkhead. If you have not checked, there is a considerable amount of air that enters the cabin from the tailcone through these small openings. This is due to the high negative pressure that is normally present in the cabin relative to the tailcone. On the next flight with the a/c on and vents closed, the CO detector went above 70 ppm. So much for the idea that it is coming in through the tailcone. Looking at previous posts there does not appear to be a related discussion thread. One thing that I picked up is that I need to seal the small opening near the leading edge of the wing where it meets the fuselage at the floor level. Looking at the geometry it is difficult to see how this could be the source. Have any of you noticed high CO levels and looked at CO entry into the cabin to figure out where it is coming from? I generally climb (at least initially) with mixture full rich in order to keep cylinder temps below 400 degrees. I know this is not good from a CO perspective but at high power the full mixture is needed. Airspeed in the climb is typically 130 kts. Once stable at altitude and in level flight the CO problem goes away. I have standard exhaust tailpipes and the air vents are Van's. Any thoughts? -------- Dave Moore RV-6 flying RV-10 QB - flying Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443777#443777 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:14 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV10-List: Carbon Monoxide Hey Dave, We have not done any CO monitoring, but I thought I'd pass along that we and many others have added a 45 degree exhaust tip to angle the exhaust away from the belly. At the time we were only trying to keep the belly clean (it works) ... now youve got me thinking! Later, - Lew ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:48 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Carbon Monoxide From: Bob Condrey I had a similar situation in an RV-10 and traced the issue to an are along the upper edge of the firewall that hadn't been sealed well. A little goo and never saw the issue again. Only thing I could figure is that a little exhaust was somehow getting in the area behind the engine when in relatively high AOA situations. Bob On Thursday, June 18, 2015, wrote: > > Hey Dave, > > We have not done any CO monitoring, but I thought I'd pass along that we > and many others have added a 45 degree exhaust tip to angle the exhaust > away from the belly. At the time we were only trying to keep the belly > clean (it works) ... now you=99ve got me thinking! > > Later, - Lew > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Carbon Monoxide From: "RV10@TEXASRV10.COM" This is interesting... I have the fully installed compressor driven Flightline AC. System I have never had CO issues in any of the various flight phases or high AOA. I fly with the AC on most all times as it really pulls out the humidity from the cabin nicely. But... When I put on the belly pod, MotoPod, I have experienced CO situations. As mentioned before in another post straight and level cruise cleans out the cabin without needing to open the fresh air vents. I did add the 45 degree tips and have experimented with the direction "I thought" would solve the issue. Not.. Tried various directions most obvious and none worked showing me I obviously didn't understand the issue. Turned them both to point towards center (not down) and that did help. Seemed to solve the issue then it reappeared after 4 hours. Then I noticed the muffler hanger hose clamps that supports the muffler had become loose allowing the tail pipe and muffler to relocate itself further outboard thus causing the exhaust to flow more to the left wing root. I tightened up the hanger clamps with muffler in correct location but haven't flown with pod on since then. Prior to this coming loose no CO..next time will tell.. Again this is only with the pod on. I think each of our situations might be different but regardless it's an issue likely solved differently per our installations. Gaylon Koenning > On Jun 18, 2015, at 7:38 PM, wrote: > > > Hey Dave, > > We have not done any CO monitoring, but I thought I'd pass along that we and many others have added a 45 degree exhaust tip to angle the exhaust away from the belly. At the time we were only trying to keep the belly clean (it works) ... now youve got me thinking! > > Later, - Lew > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:29 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV10-List: Carbon Monoxide While I agree that CO is likely in the climb, it really depends on what you did or didn't do to seal the belly, doors, vents, etc. While full rich produces a high level, perhaps 3-5% CO in the exhaust, you would have to go fully lean of peak, say 80 degrees to be able to get CO down enough to make much difference. On the rich side I suggest you keep EGT fairly close to 1250. Otherwise, once above pattern altitude, pull mixture back to a value known to be lean of peak, say 11-12 gph, and continue climb. At 75% power lean of peak you should be burning 13gph, so anything less than that will reduce power some but is lean enough you won't hurt anything regardless of throttle position. Other wise known as the big mixture pull. Besides reducing CO it will get you much cooler CHT, since your output will be a bit under 70%. On 6/18/2015 4:59 PM, nukeflyboy wrote: > > I bought a carbon monoxide detector from Aeromedix that appears to work well. It measures CO levels to the ppm level on a real time basis. My experience with it has been interesting and I wonder if you are unknowingly being exposed to high level of carbon monoxide. > > If you are in a line of airplanes waiting to take off, say at Oshkosh for example, it is not uncommon for the monitor to alarm (set at 30 ppm). It is picking up the exhaust form the airplane in front of you coming into your vents. > > I also recently installed an Icebox air conditioner to help with the Texas summer heat. To work you have to shut off outside ventilation. I have tried this several times and each time at takeoff, and while in a climb, the CO monitor goes into alarm: 30 to 45 ppm have been noticed. This can be alleviated by opening the fresh air vents, but negates the use of the air conditioner. > > Thinking that some exhaust may be coming into the cockpit from the tailcone (high AOA puts the exhaust on the belly), I sealed the corrugations in the baggage compartment bulkhead. If you have not checked, there is a considerable amount of air that enters the cabin from the tailcone through these small openings. This is due to the high negative pressure that is normally present in the cabin relative to the tailcone. > > On the next flight with the a/c on and vents closed, the CO detector went above 70 ppm. So much for the idea that it is coming in through the tailcone. > > Looking at previous posts there does not appear to be a related discussion thread. One thing that I picked up is that I need to seal the small opening near the leading edge of the wing where it meets the fuselage at the floor level. Looking at the geometry it is difficult to see how this could be the source. > > Have any of you noticed high CO levels and looked at CO entry into the cabin to figure out where it is coming from? > > I generally climb (at least initially) with mixture full rich in order to keep cylinder temps below 400 degrees. I know this is not good from a CO perspective but at high power the full mixture is needed. Airspeed in the climb is typically 130 kts. Once stable at altitude and in level flight the CO problem goes away. > > I have standard exhaust tailpipes and the air vents are Van's. > > Any thoughts? > > -------- > Dave Moore > RV-6 flying > RV-10 QB - flying > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443777#443777 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.